Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
Maria wrote: "I think the general Christian belief is that we did that to ourselves - the Adam and Eve story. I know, we've been down that road here!"
So, it's not just random crazed hatred, some girl stole an apple and god redesigns the entire planet to be a deathtrap to everyone on it for the rest of time.
But, he loves you.
Basically, yeah. :)
There are many, many illogical ideas and contradictions in religion. Free will and gods omnipotence are just one example. He gave us free will, bu ton the other hand know what we will do?....Sounds like humans trying to understand something they have no understanding of. Like someone in the 1100's trying to explain an eclipse or the change of seasons. Its just easier to say "It's god's will".
Actually it is believed that God already knew that eve and Adam was going to do.
I know we've moved on alittle, but there was some discussion on marriage equality earlier, in Chris once again showed his small minded views, as such, i wanted to share thishttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCFFxi...
Mary wrote: "Actually it is believed that God already knew that eve and Adam was going to do."That makes no sense to me. Its like putting your two loved and prized children together in a ring with loaded guns, venomous snakes and a few matches and gasoline soaked ragsfor good measure knowing they will kill each other. You'd be arrested and thrown in jail. Yet that's the standard god set? Makes no sense
God didnt make guns or violence remember with every good there is a bad...God wouldnt do that because a caring mother wouldnt or father
god did do it, if he knew what was going to happen, he knowingly put his two creations into a garden with the snake, knowing exactly what the results would be. What a dick.
Mary wrote: "God didnt make guns or violence remember with every good there is a bad...God wouldnt do that because a caring mother wouldnt or father"Mary. That makes no sense to me. God supposedly created everything, knows everything so he did indeed create guns and violence and disease and death. He knows what we will do before we do it? So he if he doesn't stop death and violence then he must condone it? Or is he just to lazy to care about his creation? Why pray? If the outcome us already predetermined? None of it makes sense. That's why belief systems require faith, because they defy logic. I prefer logic
This would seem timely: "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?" Epicurus.
Maria wrote: "How can you be a member of something and not obey all their rules?"
How many times do people do something that goes against their membership in an organization, corporation, country, etc...? Do things or believe things that go against the rules and regs adopted by their group?
A lot. I'm guessing it happens every day. Yet, they're still members of their group. Do you feel the same way about all of those people? Or, do you only feel this way about people who claim affiliation with a specific religion?
You might think they're hypocritical, but they still get to claim membership in their group, corporation, religion, etc....
Further, when it comes to things of this nature, I question why people force others into boxes. Just because someone claims membership in, fill in the blank, doesn't mean they have to stop thinking for themselves. Or does it? Freaks me out more than a bit if the takeaway message is that people can't think for themselves ... or ... if they do, they're out.
Waterboarding. I'm guessing there were people in the Bush administration who were for it and those who were against it. Waterboarding was adopted and accepted by the Bush administration. The policy? Not torture. Question? Did the people within the Bush administration who were against waterboarding not have the right to claim affiliation with the administration? Were Republicans, who were against waterboarding, wrong for continuing to claim membership in the party? Or, were they allowed the opportunity to think for themselves, argue their conscience, and still be part of the administration and party?
Better yet ....
The Bible tells us Jesus was a Jewish man. A practicing Jew. Many Christians pattern their lives on Jesus' teachings.
Did Jesus think for himself?
Did Jesus accept all of the teachings, rules and regulations, of the Judaic faith?
No.
He allegedly healed on the sabbath, even after being taken to task by rulers within the church.
He is said to have eaten foods that were deemed unclean, even after being taken to task by the rulers within the church.
I could go on ....
He claimed he was a Jew and lived the life of a Jew; however, he thought for himself, didn't believe all of the teachings of the faith, and broke rules, wantonly.
If Christians are supposed to pattern their lives on the life of Jesus, shouldn't Christians think for themselves?
Jesus was the son of God and God, as claimed by Christians. I feel someone will attempt to make that point. Jesus could think for himself, but he was divinely inspired.
Didn't Jesus supposedly say he had to die in order for something better or stronger to come in his place ... and be inside us. Doesn't the Bible say Jesus said we had the same power that he did. Too tired to grab my Bible, but I will if I really need to do so.
I'm guessing, given that, Christians have every right and, perhaps, an obligation to think for themselves, pray, and be led by the spirit of God.
If that's the case, they're not hypocrites. Right?
How many times do people do something that goes against their membership in an organization, corporation, country, etc...? Do things or believe things that go against the rules and regs adopted by their group?
A lot. I'm guessing it happens every day. Yet, they're still members of their group. Do you feel the same way about all of those people? Or, do you only feel this way about people who claim affiliation with a specific religion?
You might think they're hypocritical, but they still get to claim membership in their group, corporation, religion, etc....
Further, when it comes to things of this nature, I question why people force others into boxes. Just because someone claims membership in, fill in the blank, doesn't mean they have to stop thinking for themselves. Or does it? Freaks me out more than a bit if the takeaway message is that people can't think for themselves ... or ... if they do, they're out.
Waterboarding. I'm guessing there were people in the Bush administration who were for it and those who were against it. Waterboarding was adopted and accepted by the Bush administration. The policy? Not torture. Question? Did the people within the Bush administration who were against waterboarding not have the right to claim affiliation with the administration? Were Republicans, who were against waterboarding, wrong for continuing to claim membership in the party? Or, were they allowed the opportunity to think for themselves, argue their conscience, and still be part of the administration and party?
Better yet ....
The Bible tells us Jesus was a Jewish man. A practicing Jew. Many Christians pattern their lives on Jesus' teachings.
Did Jesus think for himself?
Did Jesus accept all of the teachings, rules and regulations, of the Judaic faith?
No.
He allegedly healed on the sabbath, even after being taken to task by rulers within the church.
He is said to have eaten foods that were deemed unclean, even after being taken to task by the rulers within the church.
I could go on ....
He claimed he was a Jew and lived the life of a Jew; however, he thought for himself, didn't believe all of the teachings of the faith, and broke rules, wantonly.
If Christians are supposed to pattern their lives on the life of Jesus, shouldn't Christians think for themselves?
Jesus was the son of God and God, as claimed by Christians. I feel someone will attempt to make that point. Jesus could think for himself, but he was divinely inspired.
Didn't Jesus supposedly say he had to die in order for something better or stronger to come in his place ... and be inside us. Doesn't the Bible say Jesus said we had the same power that he did. Too tired to grab my Bible, but I will if I really need to do so.
I'm guessing, given that, Christians have every right and, perhaps, an obligation to think for themselves, pray, and be led by the spirit of God.
If that's the case, they're not hypocrites. Right?
Maria wrote: "Just don't claim to believe, then live your life otherwise."
This seems like a judgment. Do you mean it as a judgment?
If so, are you Christian? As you're aware, Christians aren't supposed to judge.
Let he who is without sin cast ....
Before you attempt to take the sliver out of your brother's eye ....
Etc....
So, I'm left wondering .... Do you not mean to sound as judgmental as you do when you make these statements? Or, are you not Christian?
This seems like a judgment. Do you mean it as a judgment?
If so, are you Christian? As you're aware, Christians aren't supposed to judge.
Let he who is without sin cast ....
Before you attempt to take the sliver out of your brother's eye ....
Etc....
So, I'm left wondering .... Do you not mean to sound as judgmental as you do when you make these statements? Or, are you not Christian?
Shannon wrote: "Maria wrote: "How can you be a member of something and not obey all their rules?"How many times do people do something that goes against their membership in an organization, corporation, country,..."
Except the bible does not at any point have a commandment that says 'think for yourself'
No mention of this right and obligation that you bring up.
You might be thinking of Monty Python's 'Life of Brian'.
So, you are presenting a defense of christians ignoring or re-interpating their own rule book by presenting us with your interpetation of what the bible says, not what it says.
Yet, people still use 'But, the bible says..." as a reason why the rest of us have to all do something.
If everybody is free to re-imagine/ignore/ think for themselves does that completely gut the idea of the bible as rulebook/instruction manual?
Shannon wrote: "Maria wrote: "How can you be a member of something and not obey all their rules?"How many times do people do something that goes against their membership in an organization, corporation, country,..."
Oh, and anytime you give an example question that says 'are republicans hypocrites?" I will automatically respond 'YES!' as I am a liberal whackjob on top of being an atheist.
Hazel wrote: "god did do it, if he knew what was going to happen, he knowingly put his two creations into a garden with the snake, knowing exactly what the results would be. What a dick."Anybody that goes to those elaborate levels because he doesn't want to share his apples does seem like a bit of a dick.
He's god, he could make more than enough apples to share a couple.
and since most of the bible takes place in the middle east, were there apples back then?
Maria wrote: "Then why doesn't he make a "science" that can cure cancer? Why are we struggling with this when he could just "make the science" for it?"
Do parents do everything for their children? Protect them from each and every hurt? Make life as easy for them as possible? Never make them work or face hardship?
I sometimes think it's actually a good thing that I didn't have children. I think I'd likely protect my children from each and every thing. That might be a huge mistake.
Before I knew I wasn't going to have children, I watched Legends of the Fall at the theater. I was sitting there, watching the opening, and was horrified. Has anyone seen it? It goes through who the players are, the Indian's voice in the background explaining. Alfred was the oldest brother, he was born old. Tristan ... whatever was said about Tristan. And, Samuel was the youngest brother and .... It showed the older brothers helping him across a stream and it said something like ... they protected Samuel from everything.
I remember sitting there and gasping. I was horrified. I knew ... oh, damn, I'd do that. I'd protect my kids from everything.
As the movie continued, Samuel ... well, ... he was sort of a yahoo. I mean, he was a good kid and all, but .... He wanted to go to war. He saw the romance of war but nothing else. He was going to bring back the kaiser's helmet. He volunteered for the dangerous mission and got himself killed. He didn't have a clue, to a certain extent. Having been protected his entire life, he wasn't overly mature ... wasn't overly wise .... Not really. Yes, he was good. But, it's as if he was a caricature. My parents went to see the movie, and my mother called me a week or so later. I'd not discussed the flick with them. My mother said, "Shannon, that's you. Alfred and Tristan. You'd protect Samuel from everything. You'd protect your children from everything. You CAN'T do that. It will cripple them."
Yes, cancer is a very different thing. I'm dealing with cancer in my family and afraid of what's going on in me, frankly. So, believe me, I don't take cancer lightly. Would I love it if God took the darned fibroid right out of me? Made it so that my uterus is perfectly healthy? Made it so some idiot hadn't taken X-rays of me without covering my uterus and ovaries? Big time. Stupid damned mistake that had consequences ... and it wasn't my mistake. Ummm.... Duh.... Yeah.
However, I can say ... even given all this ... my sadness over not having children, something I always wanted, my fears over this freaking fibroid, etc... My 44 year old cousin who's dying of liver cancer, an aunt who just had a hysterectomy from cancer, a grandfather who just died .... I know how horrible it can be ... and understand the ravages of cancer. Having said all that, I don't know that I'd rather have a "perfect" life. I'm just not sure that's the point.
If we lived in a utopia, .... Would we grow? Would we become strong and powerful? Would we become wise? Is part of the deal the getting up after falling down? Not referencing the garden! You know all the quotes. Fall down seven times get up eight.... Falling down isn't what matters; what matters is that you get up.
I remember thinking, when I was a little girl, that we came here to learn a lesson or do some important job ... or both. Is one of the lessons to deal with pain and sorrow and death ... and not let it cripple us?
I honestly don't know. But, I'm not willing to point at cancer and point at God and point a finger.
Do parents do everything for their children? Protect them from each and every hurt? Make life as easy for them as possible? Never make them work or face hardship?
I sometimes think it's actually a good thing that I didn't have children. I think I'd likely protect my children from each and every thing. That might be a huge mistake.
Before I knew I wasn't going to have children, I watched Legends of the Fall at the theater. I was sitting there, watching the opening, and was horrified. Has anyone seen it? It goes through who the players are, the Indian's voice in the background explaining. Alfred was the oldest brother, he was born old. Tristan ... whatever was said about Tristan. And, Samuel was the youngest brother and .... It showed the older brothers helping him across a stream and it said something like ... they protected Samuel from everything.
I remember sitting there and gasping. I was horrified. I knew ... oh, damn, I'd do that. I'd protect my kids from everything.
As the movie continued, Samuel ... well, ... he was sort of a yahoo. I mean, he was a good kid and all, but .... He wanted to go to war. He saw the romance of war but nothing else. He was going to bring back the kaiser's helmet. He volunteered for the dangerous mission and got himself killed. He didn't have a clue, to a certain extent. Having been protected his entire life, he wasn't overly mature ... wasn't overly wise .... Not really. Yes, he was good. But, it's as if he was a caricature. My parents went to see the movie, and my mother called me a week or so later. I'd not discussed the flick with them. My mother said, "Shannon, that's you. Alfred and Tristan. You'd protect Samuel from everything. You'd protect your children from everything. You CAN'T do that. It will cripple them."
Yes, cancer is a very different thing. I'm dealing with cancer in my family and afraid of what's going on in me, frankly. So, believe me, I don't take cancer lightly. Would I love it if God took the darned fibroid right out of me? Made it so that my uterus is perfectly healthy? Made it so some idiot hadn't taken X-rays of me without covering my uterus and ovaries? Big time. Stupid damned mistake that had consequences ... and it wasn't my mistake. Ummm.... Duh.... Yeah.
However, I can say ... even given all this ... my sadness over not having children, something I always wanted, my fears over this freaking fibroid, etc... My 44 year old cousin who's dying of liver cancer, an aunt who just had a hysterectomy from cancer, a grandfather who just died .... I know how horrible it can be ... and understand the ravages of cancer. Having said all that, I don't know that I'd rather have a "perfect" life. I'm just not sure that's the point.
If we lived in a utopia, .... Would we grow? Would we become strong and powerful? Would we become wise? Is part of the deal the getting up after falling down? Not referencing the garden! You know all the quotes. Fall down seven times get up eight.... Falling down isn't what matters; what matters is that you get up.
I remember thinking, when I was a little girl, that we came here to learn a lesson or do some important job ... or both. Is one of the lessons to deal with pain and sorrow and death ... and not let it cripple us?
I honestly don't know. But, I'm not willing to point at cancer and point at God and point a finger.
Travis wrote: "Except the bible does not at any point have a commandment that says 'think for yourself'
No mention of this right and obligation that you bring up.
You might be thinking of Monty Python's 'Life of Brian'.
So, you are presenting a defense of christians ignoring or re-interpating their own rule book by presenting us with your interpetation of what the bible says, not what it says."
Damn, Travis....
Didn't I say I was too tired to get out my Bible?
Crap.
No, there's not a commandment stating one must think for oneself. However, there's also not a commandment stating we can't think.
Going to get my Bible for the other ...
No mention of this right and obligation that you bring up.
You might be thinking of Monty Python's 'Life of Brian'.
So, you are presenting a defense of christians ignoring or re-interpating their own rule book by presenting us with your interpetation of what the bible says, not what it says."
Damn, Travis....
Didn't I say I was too tired to get out my Bible?
Crap.
No, there's not a commandment stating one must think for oneself. However, there's also not a commandment stating we can't think.
Going to get my Bible for the other ...
Travis wrote: "Oh, and anytime you give an example question that says 'are republicans hypocrites?" I will automatically respond 'YES!' as I am a liberal whackjob on top of being an atheist. "
Okay, but following Maria's logic, I think, they'd not be allowed to call themselves Republicans.
What should they call themselves? Democrats. Do you want them in your party?
I, of course, am an Independent and don't much care for either party, truth be told.
Can't believe you're making me look up scripture when I'm tired.
Okay, but following Maria's logic, I think, they'd not be allowed to call themselves Republicans.
What should they call themselves? Democrats. Do you want them in your party?
I, of course, am an Independent and don't much care for either party, truth be told.
Can't believe you're making me look up scripture when I'm tired.
Travis wrote: "So, you are presenting a defense of christians ignoring or re-interpating their own rule book by presenting us with your interpetation of what the bible says, not what it says.
Yet, people still use 'But, the bible says..." as a reason why the rest of us have to all do something.
If everybody is free to re-imagine/ignore/ think for themselves does that completely gut the idea of the bible as rulebook/instruction manual? "
Someday, Travis, you'll remember I don't talk out of my arse. ;)
Not looking for the scriptures that show Jesus healing on the sabbath and eating non-kosher. Just about everyone knows of these scriptures. If not, they're there and easy to find.
Jesus seemingly thinking for himself and not following the dictates of the Torah ....
Matthew 5:38-39
You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. [Exod. 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21] But, I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.
The Spirit of God entering believers after Jesus' death ...
Luke 24:49
And behold, I will send forth upon you what My Father has promised; but remain in the city [Jerusalem] until you are clothed with power from on high.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever.
John 16:7
However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say it is profitable (good, expedient, advantageous) for you that I go away. Because if I do not go away, the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) will not come to you [into close fellowship with you]; but if I go away, I will send Him to you [to be in close fellowship with you].
Call for Christians to Pattern themselves on Jesus ...
1 Peter 2:21
For even to this were you called. For Christ also suffered for you, leaving you [His personal] example, so that you should follow in His footsteps.
This is attributed to Peter, the founder of the Christian church. An alleged teaching of the founder of the Christian church.
Not my interpretation.
However, as I've admitted 5,001 times, I don't see the Bible as a rulebook and don't use it to tell other people what to do.
And, yeah, in my opinion ... mine ....
If people believe in Jesus and believe the Holy Spirit is with them, they can follow the teachings given to them by the Spirit. Makes sense to me. Clearly, Jesus, as written in the Bible, was guided by God and God's spirit when he argued against an eye for an eye. Peter is said to tell the Church to pattern themselves on Jesus. So, ....
Ultimately, would that gut the rules and regs? Patterning one's life on Jesus and being led by the Spirit? Probably.
Find it ironic that non-believers would be freaked out by that.
I'm not.
Yet, people still use 'But, the bible says..." as a reason why the rest of us have to all do something.
If everybody is free to re-imagine/ignore/ think for themselves does that completely gut the idea of the bible as rulebook/instruction manual? "
Someday, Travis, you'll remember I don't talk out of my arse. ;)
Not looking for the scriptures that show Jesus healing on the sabbath and eating non-kosher. Just about everyone knows of these scriptures. If not, they're there and easy to find.
Jesus seemingly thinking for himself and not following the dictates of the Torah ....
Matthew 5:38-39
You have heard that it was said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth. [Exod. 21:24; Lev. 24:20; Deut. 19:21] But, I say to you, Do not resist the evil man [who injures you]; but if anyone strikes you on the right jaw or cheek, turn to him the other one too.
The Spirit of God entering believers after Jesus' death ...
Luke 24:49
And behold, I will send forth upon you what My Father has promised; but remain in the city [Jerusalem] until you are clothed with power from on high.
John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Intercessor, Advocate, Strengthener, and Standby), that He may remain with you forever.
John 16:7
However, I am telling you nothing but the truth when I say it is profitable (good, expedient, advantageous) for you that I go away. Because if I do not go away, the Comforter (Counselor, Helper, Advocate, Intercessor, Strengthener, Standby) will not come to you [into close fellowship with you]; but if I go away, I will send Him to you [to be in close fellowship with you].
Call for Christians to Pattern themselves on Jesus ...
1 Peter 2:21
For even to this were you called. For Christ also suffered for you, leaving you [His personal] example, so that you should follow in His footsteps.
This is attributed to Peter, the founder of the Christian church. An alleged teaching of the founder of the Christian church.
Not my interpretation.
However, as I've admitted 5,001 times, I don't see the Bible as a rulebook and don't use it to tell other people what to do.
And, yeah, in my opinion ... mine ....
If people believe in Jesus and believe the Holy Spirit is with them, they can follow the teachings given to them by the Spirit. Makes sense to me. Clearly, Jesus, as written in the Bible, was guided by God and God's spirit when he argued against an eye for an eye. Peter is said to tell the Church to pattern themselves on Jesus. So, ....
Ultimately, would that gut the rules and regs? Patterning one's life on Jesus and being led by the Spirit? Probably.
Find it ironic that non-believers would be freaked out by that.
I'm not.
Hi Shannon - no I'm not trying to be judgemental and tried really hard not to sound that way! Really! I'm for everyone doing and being exactly what they want and feel. But I want them to have the cajones to stand up and take responsibility for their beliefs and actions. And yes, if you belong to a group or organization, religious or secular, you should have to follow ALL their rules - in my opinion. I'm truly not trying to slam or alienate anyone - Shannon, I think you know me better than that by now as do my other friends here. I just want to hear the explanations and rationalizations of people who feel differently.
Maria wrote: "And yes, if you belong to a group or organization, religious or secular, you should have to follow ALL their rules - in my opinion. "
Glad to hear you don't mean to be judgmental; however saying people should have to follow ALL their rules is a judgment. I think ....
Posted my explanation and rationalization ....
Not saying you're trying to slam or alienate anyone.
I'm just ... seeing a possible irony. If you're a Christian, it would seem that you're violating one of the aspects of the faith, not judging, ... people need to have stones, people need to follow all rules or they're hypocrites. Seems like you're judging people.
Now, I sometimes have an issue with this myself. But, I don't make claims about other people's hypocrisy for not following all of the rules of the faith or say they can't claim to be Christian if they don't follow all the "rules".
So, .... It's seems a bit odd to me.
Glad to hear you don't mean to be judgmental; however saying people should have to follow ALL their rules is a judgment. I think ....
Posted my explanation and rationalization ....
Not saying you're trying to slam or alienate anyone.
I'm just ... seeing a possible irony. If you're a Christian, it would seem that you're violating one of the aspects of the faith, not judging, ... people need to have stones, people need to follow all rules or they're hypocrites. Seems like you're judging people.
Now, I sometimes have an issue with this myself. But, I don't make claims about other people's hypocrisy for not following all of the rules of the faith or say they can't claim to be Christian if they don't follow all the "rules".
So, .... It's seems a bit odd to me.
Understood. But my opinion that all rules should be followed is just that - my opinion. I don't judge those who don't do that - I just know that in good conscience I personally couldn't be a member of any group if I was ignoring some of their rules.
It seems like the discussion is coming around to the question that i have asked before, which is directed at those who will use the bible to justify one position, saying "this is the word of god", and then conveniently ignore other parts. It's not that I am trying to dictate how believers should believe, but I am interested in the inconsistency. Now Shannon, we have had this discussion, i understand your position and have no issue with it, you do not fall into the group that I pose this question to, so please do not take this as an attack on you......
Well said, cerebus. I'm interested in hearing comments of people who claim to be Christian, but choose to ignore scriptures that are not consistent with their chosen lifestyle.
Maria wrote: "Understood. But my opinion that all rules should be followed is just that - my opinion. I don't judge those who don't do that - I just know that in good conscience I personally couldn't be a member..."
For some reason, I'm not sure what, this reads very differently to me than your earlier statements. I can wrap my brain and heart around your saying, "I just know that in good conscience I personally couldn't be a member ..." Yeah. I get that. I'm no longer a member of the United Methodist Church and don't attend for a reason. Even though they promote thought, one of their basic principles is conversion. I can't, in good conscience, be a member. We're on the same page.
I wouldn't; however, say everyone who claims to be a United Methodist should believe in conversion, grow a set, etc....
Not sure what the difference might be, but I think there is one.
For some reason, I'm not sure what, this reads very differently to me than your earlier statements. I can wrap my brain and heart around your saying, "I just know that in good conscience I personally couldn't be a member ..." Yeah. I get that. I'm no longer a member of the United Methodist Church and don't attend for a reason. Even though they promote thought, one of their basic principles is conversion. I can't, in good conscience, be a member. We're on the same page.
I wouldn't; however, say everyone who claims to be a United Methodist should believe in conversion, grow a set, etc....
Not sure what the difference might be, but I think there is one.
cerebus wrote: "Now Shannon, we have had this discussion, i understand your position and have no issue with it, you do not fall into the group that I pose this question to, so please do not take this as an attack on you...... "
I don't take it as an attack. ;)
I don't take it as an attack. ;)
Maria wrote: "Well said, cerebus. I'm interested in hearing comments of people who claim to be Christian, but choose to ignore scriptures that are not consistent with their chosen lifestyle."
Not sure what Christians you guys are going to find to answer this question.
Gave my thoughts in 9541....
Not sure what Christians you guys are going to find to answer this question.
Gave my thoughts in 9541....
Well it is up to us to do what is right and if we abuse it then we'll be punished
Of course, it should be opened to more groups than Christians.... We constantly look through that lens. I'm sure there are Jews and Muslims and ... who don't follow all of the rules of their religions.
Then they are not true members in my opinion. It's all or nothing in my mind. A person should be able to acknowledge their own beliefs without the crutch of saying they are a member of a certain group or religion. Example - here is a list of all baptist beliefs - in order to say "i am a baptist" a person has to believe all those things. Otherwise they are just someone who believes some baptist teachings - not a full fledged member.
Shannon - it's ok if we disagree on this.
Maria wrote: "Shannon - it's ok if we disagree on this. "
That's a good thing.
By the way, does this include all groups or just religions?
That's a good thing.
By the way, does this include all groups or just religions?
Mary, how do you decide what is right? This is an honest question......
Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "Except the bible does not at any point have a commandment that says 'think for yourself'No mention of this right and obligation that you bring up.
You might be thinking of Monty Pyt..."
There's not a commandment telling us not to think...?
So, you follow the teachings of what the bible doesn't say...?
Travis wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "Except the bible does not at any point have a commandment that says 'think for yourself'
No mention of this right and obligation that you bring up.
You might be think..."
Notice you ignored everything else I wrote ... and that took me a long time ... and ... I wasn't following a playbook or anything ... and not repeating something I said before.
Wish the people who want to know the answers to questions would respond to the answers when given .... That doesn't go just to you, by the way.
Regarding the above ....
There's not an commandment that tells me to breathe, yet I do.
There's not a commandment that tells me to bathe myself, yet I do.
There aren't commandments that tell me I can't breathe or bathe myself. Phew...!
Don't think we need a commandment for everything we do in this life. I mean, heck, we'd be pretty limited, wouldn't we?
We can think for ourselves, contrary to what some would like us to believe.
No mention of this right and obligation that you bring up.
You might be think..."
Notice you ignored everything else I wrote ... and that took me a long time ... and ... I wasn't following a playbook or anything ... and not repeating something I said before.
Wish the people who want to know the answers to questions would respond to the answers when given .... That doesn't go just to you, by the way.
Regarding the above ....
There's not an commandment that tells me to breathe, yet I do.
There's not a commandment that tells me to bathe myself, yet I do.
There aren't commandments that tell me I can't breathe or bathe myself. Phew...!
Don't think we need a commandment for everything we do in this life. I mean, heck, we'd be pretty limited, wouldn't we?
We can think for ourselves, contrary to what some would like us to believe.
Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "So, you are presenting a defense of christians ignoring or re-interpating their own rule book by presenting us with your interpetation of what the bible says, not what it says.Yet,..."
Firstly, I am too much of a gentlemen to ever make comments about a ladies' arse...
Interesting quotes but none that says 'think for yourself', it's all about following Jesus example and he's just doing what his dad wants him to.
Not a bad thing, as he is one of the more reasonable and consistent characters in the book, but doesn't really address or reconcile the bible as an authority, but it's okay to cherry pick whatever bits you feel like.
Shame you left out one of my favorites where he gets ticked at the fig tree and where protesters get that famous quote 'God hates figs!'.
Seriously, you follow the arse reference with the quote about turning the other cheek...?!
Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "Oh, and anytime you give an example question that says 'are republicans hypocrites?" I will automatically respond 'YES!' as I am a liberal whackjob on top of being an atheist. "Oka..."
Actually my complaint is that hypocritical republican is a redundant statement.
Yeah, I went there.
Travis wrote: "Firstly, I am too much of a gentlemen to ever make comments about a ladies' arse..."
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Good one! ;)
AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!
Good one! ;)
Travis wrote: "Seriously, you follow the arse reference with the quote about turning the other cheek...?! "
Ahahahahahahahahahaha!
Ahahahahahahahahahaha!
Travis wrote: "Interesting quotes but none that says 'think for yourself', it's all about following Jesus example and he's just doing what his dad wants him to."
Okay....
Perhaps I should rephrase ....
The Spirit is said to have been sent to us, to live in us.
Peter is said to have instructed Christians to pattern themselves on Jesus.
Jesus, a Jew, didn't follow all of the rules, etc... found within the Torah. I said he thought for himself. Perhaps it's that he prayed and God gave him truths that aren't found in the Torah. Cheeks.... We're supposed to pattern ourselves on Jesus ....
So, ....
Given that we can, so says the Bible, have the Spirit of God within us, and we can and should pray and listen to that Spirit. In doing so, we might come to different understandings and truths than what are found in the Bible ... just as Jesus seems to have done.
Okay....
Perhaps I should rephrase ....
The Spirit is said to have been sent to us, to live in us.
Peter is said to have instructed Christians to pattern themselves on Jesus.
Jesus, a Jew, didn't follow all of the rules, etc... found within the Torah. I said he thought for himself. Perhaps it's that he prayed and God gave him truths that aren't found in the Torah. Cheeks.... We're supposed to pattern ourselves on Jesus ....
So, ....
Given that we can, so says the Bible, have the Spirit of God within us, and we can and should pray and listen to that Spirit. In doing so, we might come to different understandings and truths than what are found in the Bible ... just as Jesus seems to have done.
Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "Except the bible does not at any point have a commandment that says 'think for yourself'No mention of this right and obligation that you bring up.
You..."
That's my point, if you religious folk can think for yourselves and choose what parts of the bible to follow or ignore than doesn't that undermine the whole idea of saying 'the bible says...!' to the rest of us and expected it to be treated like it has any authority?
and if you can think for yourselves, why do you need the holy users manual in the first place?
Travis wrote: "That's my point, if you religious folk can think for yourselves and choose what parts of the bible to follow or ignore than doesn't that undermine the whole idea of saying 'the bible says...!' to the rest of us and expected it to be treated like it has any authority?
and if you can think for yourselves, why do you need the holy users manual in the first place? "
Hmmm....
I'm guessing someone who is truly led by God won't tell people, "The Bible says...," and demand that they follow certain dictates and tell the rest of the populous what to do, expecting acknowledgment of authority.
Do we need the Bible in the first place?
Hmmm....
As I've said, I find some lessons to be valuable. I'm a James woman and try to live by the lessons therein. There's life and death in the tongue .... Faith without works is dead .... I also find value in the teachings attributed to Jesus; though I've always been flummoxed by the fig tree.
There are times when I'm facing a situation and I think about a teaching. Usually, this involves anger. If someone crosses a line and hurts someone I care about, etc..., I become angry; I sometimes think bad thoughts and am sorely tempted to say nasty things about the person. I might even feel tempted to start a list and put that person's name on it. I've even been known to make a Godfather reference. Then, I'll think about some of these teachings and often will reign myself in, especially my words. I think it makes me a better person. I've found certain lessons and my meditation upon them to be beneficial to my wellbeing and the health and welfare of those who cross lines that shouldn't be crossed.
I feel I've been led to James. Divinely led...?
One night, I had a dream ... "Romans 8. Romans 8," ... over and over in my head. I wasn't going to church at the time. I'm not sure if I'd read Romans or not. Over and over ... it felt like hours ... Romans 8 rang in my head. I woke up ... what the .... I wondered if there was a Romans 8. Yes. Now, was that a fluke? A coincidence? Did the Spirit give me a message? In the Bible, which I believe was written by fallible men, might there still be some truths and might Romans 8 contain a truth for me and from God?
The Bible is there, as are other holy books. If we were to pattern ourselves on Jesus, for example, we'd not simply follow every rule within the book. We'd also pray and find discernment regarding God's true meaning and teachings.
Those are my feelings, which don't necessarily match with church doctrine. Understatement.
and if you can think for yourselves, why do you need the holy users manual in the first place? "
Hmmm....
I'm guessing someone who is truly led by God won't tell people, "The Bible says...," and demand that they follow certain dictates and tell the rest of the populous what to do, expecting acknowledgment of authority.
Do we need the Bible in the first place?
Hmmm....
As I've said, I find some lessons to be valuable. I'm a James woman and try to live by the lessons therein. There's life and death in the tongue .... Faith without works is dead .... I also find value in the teachings attributed to Jesus; though I've always been flummoxed by the fig tree.
There are times when I'm facing a situation and I think about a teaching. Usually, this involves anger. If someone crosses a line and hurts someone I care about, etc..., I become angry; I sometimes think bad thoughts and am sorely tempted to say nasty things about the person. I might even feel tempted to start a list and put that person's name on it. I've even been known to make a Godfather reference. Then, I'll think about some of these teachings and often will reign myself in, especially my words. I think it makes me a better person. I've found certain lessons and my meditation upon them to be beneficial to my wellbeing and the health and welfare of those who cross lines that shouldn't be crossed.
I feel I've been led to James. Divinely led...?
One night, I had a dream ... "Romans 8. Romans 8," ... over and over in my head. I wasn't going to church at the time. I'm not sure if I'd read Romans or not. Over and over ... it felt like hours ... Romans 8 rang in my head. I woke up ... what the .... I wondered if there was a Romans 8. Yes. Now, was that a fluke? A coincidence? Did the Spirit give me a message? In the Bible, which I believe was written by fallible men, might there still be some truths and might Romans 8 contain a truth for me and from God?
The Bible is there, as are other holy books. If we were to pattern ourselves on Jesus, for example, we'd not simply follow every rule within the book. We'd also pray and find discernment regarding God's true meaning and teachings.
Those are my feelings, which don't necessarily match with church doctrine. Understatement.
Travis wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "Except the bible does not at any point have a commandment that says 'think for yourself'No mention of this right and obligation that y..."
Amen Travis! That's my main problem with religion...it's always do as I say not as I do.
Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "That's my point, if you religious folk can think for yourselves and choose what parts of the bible to follow or ignore than doesn't that undermine the whole idea of saying 'the bible..."So, you have developed a personal philosophy from reading the bible, but you then say that the people who use the bible as a literal rule book aren't the real deal.
Which seems to just tie into the idea that several of the atheists on this thread have touched on, that at some time people can and should outgrow religion and think for themselves.
As well as the idea of it's okay to cherry pick the bible and then the idea that there are people who are only claiming to be, but not really.
It seems like the people on the religious side are doing the job of presenting examples of why we really don't religion for those of us on the other side.
Travis wrote: "So, you have developed a personal philosophy from reading the bible, but you then say that the people who use the bible as a literal rule book aren't the real deal."
Actually, I didn't say that. Did I? I said, "I'm guessing someone who is truly led by God won't tell people, "The Bible says...," and demand that they follow certain dictates and tell the rest of the populous what to do, expecting acknowledgment of authority."
It's different.
Within my American Indian ideals, it's not for me to tell people what to believe and not to believe. Arguing about Great Spirit is something others do and not to be adopted. What does God look like? What did God say when? Was Jesus born of a Virgin? Which religion is best and has the direct line to God? Catholic or Protestant? Jewish? No, Great Spirit is greater than that. Further, anyone believing in that "God" would not point to the Bible and say one must obey this and that.
Within my Yankee and Christian upbringing, I was brought up to follow the teachings and example of Jesus. Jesus was less concerned, more often than not, in following the law established by religious leaders than in listening to the word of God and acting in kind.
Further, I said ... I'm guessing that .... That means something, those words.... It means "I'm" thinking a thought but am not sure. My thought. A thought that might be wrong. Not a dictate. Anyone who doesn't ... isn't! Nope that's not my bag.
Finally, regarding ...
"It seems like the people on the religious side are doing the job of presenting examples of why we really don't religion for those of us on the other side."
I thought the point was understanding why people think as they do. After all, there are so many different believers. It's important to ask and question in order to understand. They might have different answers.
And, speaking for myself, the point, my point, is to be honest and share of myself, my beliefs. In order to further understanding ....
Yet, when I share, openly and without a playbook, it's about me proving the point of non-believers?
First, it's not about a side or proving a side right or wrong. Not in my mind. It's not about plugging my nose and averting my eyes when someone on my "side" acts off base ... after all, the person is on my side and I need allies in order to .... It's not about denying a point made by someone on the other "side" ... a point that's accurate ... because, oh, my ... if they're accurate about that and I say so, they might be accurate about other things and all will be lost! My "side" might lose!!
Not saying you're saying that ... just saying.
For me, it's about sharing and understanding and finding the truth of the thing. It's not about proving the idea that we need religion. Some do. Some don't. For various reasons....
Further, saying people should be able to follow their own path, something I've always said ... Jews, Buddhists, Christians, etc..., even to the point of, let me use a phrase out of the non-believers playbook and American Atheist site, cherry picking ... that doesn't mean I think people don't need religion. Those who choose those paths are still on spiritual paths. They'd only be of value and acknowledged as a reason for religion if all the people one the path were round and on the same path and, in the end, fit into a round hole. (Though, if too round, they'd need to pay a tax as they might inconvenience me and cost corporations extra money.... Couldn't resist.)
I don't think so.
Though, if you choose to use it that way, that's your choice.
Finally, I can't help but note ....
In all the anti-cherry picking arguments and Maria's contention that you can only say you're a Christian if ....!
Is that the case for all groups or just religions?
Can't help but note no one is tackling that....
Does the Democrat who is against gay marriage or abortion get to claim membership in that party or not? Are they cherry pickers? Is that wrong to the nth degree?
Or, is it just religious folk who are wrong for thinking for themselves and being led by their conscience and, in some cases, maybe "God"?
Actually, I didn't say that. Did I? I said, "I'm guessing someone who is truly led by God won't tell people, "The Bible says...," and demand that they follow certain dictates and tell the rest of the populous what to do, expecting acknowledgment of authority."
It's different.
Within my American Indian ideals, it's not for me to tell people what to believe and not to believe. Arguing about Great Spirit is something others do and not to be adopted. What does God look like? What did God say when? Was Jesus born of a Virgin? Which religion is best and has the direct line to God? Catholic or Protestant? Jewish? No, Great Spirit is greater than that. Further, anyone believing in that "God" would not point to the Bible and say one must obey this and that.
Within my Yankee and Christian upbringing, I was brought up to follow the teachings and example of Jesus. Jesus was less concerned, more often than not, in following the law established by religious leaders than in listening to the word of God and acting in kind.
Further, I said ... I'm guessing that .... That means something, those words.... It means "I'm" thinking a thought but am not sure. My thought. A thought that might be wrong. Not a dictate. Anyone who doesn't ... isn't! Nope that's not my bag.
Finally, regarding ...
"It seems like the people on the religious side are doing the job of presenting examples of why we really don't religion for those of us on the other side."
I thought the point was understanding why people think as they do. After all, there are so many different believers. It's important to ask and question in order to understand. They might have different answers.
And, speaking for myself, the point, my point, is to be honest and share of myself, my beliefs. In order to further understanding ....
Yet, when I share, openly and without a playbook, it's about me proving the point of non-believers?
First, it's not about a side or proving a side right or wrong. Not in my mind. It's not about plugging my nose and averting my eyes when someone on my "side" acts off base ... after all, the person is on my side and I need allies in order to .... It's not about denying a point made by someone on the other "side" ... a point that's accurate ... because, oh, my ... if they're accurate about that and I say so, they might be accurate about other things and all will be lost! My "side" might lose!!
Not saying you're saying that ... just saying.
For me, it's about sharing and understanding and finding the truth of the thing. It's not about proving the idea that we need religion. Some do. Some don't. For various reasons....
Further, saying people should be able to follow their own path, something I've always said ... Jews, Buddhists, Christians, etc..., even to the point of, let me use a phrase out of the non-believers playbook and American Atheist site, cherry picking ... that doesn't mean I think people don't need religion. Those who choose those paths are still on spiritual paths. They'd only be of value and acknowledged as a reason for religion if all the people one the path were round and on the same path and, in the end, fit into a round hole. (Though, if too round, they'd need to pay a tax as they might inconvenience me and cost corporations extra money.... Couldn't resist.)
I don't think so.
Though, if you choose to use it that way, that's your choice.
Finally, I can't help but note ....
In all the anti-cherry picking arguments and Maria's contention that you can only say you're a Christian if ....!
Is that the case for all groups or just religions?
Can't help but note no one is tackling that....
Does the Democrat who is against gay marriage or abortion get to claim membership in that party or not? Are they cherry pickers? Is that wrong to the nth degree?
Or, is it just religious folk who are wrong for thinking for themselves and being led by their conscience and, in some cases, maybe "God"?
And, yes.... My response is more than somewhat egocentric. I'm talking of what's in my mind and heart. That's based on my culture, upbringing and beliefs.
Perhaps another woman, from a different culture, would say people who are truly led by "God" color within the lines but only after being told what page to color and what crayon to use.
For some, I suppose it's about that.
For me, it's about wanting to color ... or about wanting color but creating it in different ways ... through art, through words, through music ....
Still, it's egocentric. Who am I to say someone who is truly led ...?
I find my truths through my path ... as do others. It's not for me to assign truth, I suppose. But, then, neither is it for anyone else.... Also my view ....
I live in the "Live Free or Die" state, after all. That's a sentiment that is so ingrained it's hard for me to view things through any other lens.
Perhaps another woman, from a different culture, would say people who are truly led by "God" color within the lines but only after being told what page to color and what crayon to use.
For some, I suppose it's about that.
For me, it's about wanting to color ... or about wanting color but creating it in different ways ... through art, through words, through music ....
Still, it's egocentric. Who am I to say someone who is truly led ...?
I find my truths through my path ... as do others. It's not for me to assign truth, I suppose. But, then, neither is it for anyone else.... Also my view ....
I live in the "Live Free or Die" state, after all. That's a sentiment that is so ingrained it's hard for me to view things through any other lens.
There seems to be some misunderstanding about religious laws here. Has anybody ever looked at the ten commandments not as laws to be bent and broken, but as a recipe for a society? Think how we bake a cake. Does everybody really always put exactly two cups of flour in? Sometimes there's a little extra, and sometimes there's a little less. Sometimes it's more compacted into the cup than others. A good cook learns what works and develops those techniques. A cook who ignores parts of the recipe might be asked to never set foot in the kitchen again, or at least not unti they agree to at least try to follow the recipe.Somebody mentioned the Sabbath law above. Has anybody ever tried to understand the fundament of that law? Our society today is so busy--even when we're playing Halo we're busy. Our minds are not focussed on any higher meaning or truth. We love to be distracted. There's that stoy of Samuel in the Bible, where God calls his name in the middle of the night. If that happened today, would Samuel say "Look, God, I set aside fifteen minutes every morning to pray and read Your Word. If You want to get my attention, then is the time to do it." If Martin Luther or Ghandi had not had time to think, do you think they could have thought for themselves?
Robert wrote: "There seems to be some misunderstanding about religious laws here. Has anybody ever looked at the ten commandments not as laws to be bent and broken, but as a recipe for a society? Think how we bak..."So, you read what god did over messing with his apples and you think he'll go easier on you when chocolate cake is involved...?
A truly great chef doesn't need someone to give them a recipe.
Shannon wrote: "Travis wrote: "So, you have developed a personal philosophy from reading the bible, but you then say that the people who use the bible as a literal rule book aren't the real deal."Actually, I did..."
The only problem with your analogy is that political party membership does not promise to save your eternal soul if you follow the dictates of the group nor does shunning the group bring a threat of eternal damnation. Religion deals in absolutes.. I have yet to hear a religion say "Follow us, we know possibly a pretty good way, if you want to" no they say " ours is the one true way" I once had a discussion with a popular pastor in our town. I put forth the position that maybe the 7 days of creation in bible were really periods of thousands of years. He insisted that if the bible said 7 days then it was 7 24 hr days. He also said dinosaur fossils were put on earth by an all powerful god to make the earth seem millions of years old and therefore test the faith of his followers......really? That was just too much for me. If those are the mental hoops you have to jump through to explain your faith, then ill take science any day.
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And I'm not sure if you meant it this way or not, but how did God "allow" us to come to earth? I think the story goes that he put us here - we didn't just choose to get on a spaceship leaving from heaven and he said ok.