Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 801-850 of 12,463

[Maureen]

Oh but Alphie I do want to be converted...It is so much easier in this life to be a sheep than the farmer. My conversion must be based on fact and on evidence however because I am a rational thinking human. This is why you are giving up...because you have no evidence. I asked you for one, just one solid piece of evidence that proves god exists....your response? Give up. You are typical of all believers who cannot convince a non believer with your nonsense....blame the non believer who just cannot see. How about looking inward and addressing the reasons you cannot "convert" me....the reason is YOU HAVE NO PROOF OR EVIDENCE. NONE.

[Hazel]

And just to add to all that Maureen has already said (well said, at that), your tone is distinctly offensive Alfie, now I know we've said a few things about you, but that included an acolade for trying despite not having the grasp of the language being used that is needed to express yourself completely clearly - much of what you say I have to sit and work out what you actually mean, because your sentence structure and grammar is atrocious.

Tax spending in the UK for 2009:

224 billion = helping people, ie the disabled, single parent families, the unemployed

119 billion = healthcare

87.4b = education

85.2b = looking after the elderly

These are just a few examples. I'm not going to deny that we have a large military budget, but you've got to ask yourself, if there weren't religious wars going on all the time, would we need it? If all we were fighting about was resources, there would be a lot less wars. I also know that if we took a weeks worth of the worlds military budget, we could feed the world for a year, as its been estimated you need £30 billion to feed the world for a year, but that's just numbers, the logistics involved would be massive, just finding the space to grow all the food would be impossible without destroying large tracts of natural wild land, and replacing it with farmland. Then take into account that not all areas of the world are suitable for producing food, but that people live in all areas. Then you have to convince the muslims to share the food they grow with the jews, or vice versa, and with the hindu's. Get the catholics to share with the protestants? Like hell. There's far more involved than just the funds. The problem here is that people have created divisions based on faith and belief, and want to kill people with different views, and they have the gall to call themselves just and moral for doing that.

And just a small point, blaming science and scientists for where tax money is spent is like blaming the average lay follower of a religion on where the church spends the money donated to them for charitable work, which we've already established is mostly not spent on charity work. The military budget is decided upon by the government, usually by people who are religious.

If there was a god that I could surrender myself to, I would do so in an instant, because it would make my life so much easier, but as the evidence goes against such a thing existing, I will not take the easy way out by surrendering to a lie.

Maureen, I've done that experiment with fruit flies, its really boring, but it does prove a lot about evolution. Hell, the peppered moth is the most well known example of evolution in action, this is a peppered moth:



then, when the industrial revolution started, we got peppered moths appearing, looking like this:



this is known as a melanistic variant. Now, just to show why it happened. Peppered moths use their colouring as camouflage, to avoid being eaten, so the normal variety sits on lichen etc that matches its colouration, and can't be seen:



However, in the industrial revolution there was a lot of smoke and soot, so you got a melanistic variant, now lets see how this would effect the peppered moth:



As we can see, the original variant is now much easier to see, but the melanistic one is well hidden. The melanistic variant started outnumbering the original.

As we became more aware of the pollution we were causing, and started doing something about it, the soot and smoke began to reduce, and the melanistic variant went into decline, as the original started to increase again. Now, you're only likely to find the melanistic moths in large cities. Why? Because the moths that are obvious get eaten, whereas those that blend well with their background are more likely to survive and breed, and thus they are more "fit" to their environment, they have an advantageous feature, or set of features, that allows them to survive and reproduce and THAT is evolution by natural selection in basic terms.

[Maureen]

Natural selection, one of the foremost tools of evolution. Survival of the fittest. Pretty basic science based on evidence....

[Becky]

Easy, no religion...or at any rate KEEP your religion to yourself - it is a private and personal choice!

[Bunnie]

HAZEL,DAM YOU NAILED IT! RIGHT ON! BUT DO YOU THINK YOU WILL CHANGE THEIR MINDS? IT IS SO SIMPLE TO SEE BUT THEIR MINDS ARE CLOSED.

[Bunnie]

ALFIE,FOR GODS SAKE THINK! AT LEAST LOOK AT WHAT WE ARE SAYING-I KNOW IT IS HUMILATING TO HAVE SOMEONE TELL YOU THAT YOU ARE WRONG AND WE SHOULD NOT DO THAT BUT THE WORLD OF SCIENTIFIC FINDINGS IS FASCINATING AND IF YOU WOULD JUST TAKE A LOOK-PLEASE LOOK AND MAYBE IF YOU COULD STAND IT READ SOME BOOKS ON SCIENCE-IT WON'T HURT!WHAT HAZEL JUST SAID ABOUT THE BUTTERFLIES ON THE TREE TRUNKS IS AN ILLUSTRATION OF SURVIVAL OF THE FITTEST OR OF THE BEST IN DISGUISES.

[Hazel]

moths, not butterflies, butterflies are evolutionary descendants of moths though...

Please stop shouting, its hurting my ears ;P

it is kinda funny that you asked him to think "for gods sake" though :P

[Bukky]

Hazel I must say that was a very educative and convincingpiece,though I have to kick against it.As far as I am concerned that may be no less a conspiracy than the stories in the bible as you rightly claim the bible to be.The difference in color might just be attributed to another thing other than evolution.And if really evolution holds,I suppose the current crop of humans may have evolved into another being or hasn't it been long enough.I can't see any horns protruding from my head or some sort of evolution

[Bunnie]

HAZEL-OK MOTHS--WAS I SHOUTING?YOU KNOW IT IS A LOSING BATTLE-WE CANNOT CHANGE PEOPLES MINDS ONLY THEY CAN DO THAT-ARGUING AND BELITTLING THEM WON'T WORK. I FORGOT -WHAT DID YOU SAY YOU HAVE A DEGREE IN? HAVE WE CHANGED ALFIES MIND AT ALL DO YOU THINK?
I WILL TRY NOT TO SHOUT!

[Bunnie]

HAZEL--YOU SEE HOW PERVASIVE THE WORD god IS? EVEN WE OF ANOTHER PERSUASION USE IT.

[Hazel]

sigh, and within minutes Bunnie is proved right about you not changing your mind. They have PROOF for what I wrote, I myself had a specimen of both varients in a insect collection I had to make for university.

You really don't understand evolution, do you? You don't have horns because we have no need for them, we don't have a rut to win females, we don't need the natural weapons to protect us from predators, we don't need to have males who have bigger horns to prove they're a better choice of mate, we use our intelligence, which is an evolved characteristic, to make tools and weapons to defend ourselves from predators, thats the route we have taken. Our sexual features are our hair, and in women the breasts, rounded wide hips and buttocks, so we don't need horns. Horns would be pointless and waste of the bodies resources to produce and support (horns are pretty damn heavy). Our evolutionary pathway didn't select for horns, or feathers, or blue bottoms, or anything like that.

Its already been said that within 20 generations we could lose those tall, willowy women that you see in magazines and on cat walks, and most, and eventually all, human women will be of the shorter dumpier variety, because they're the ones that are breeding, that's evolution.

Evolution takes place over many many generations. Human generations are between 15 and 35 or so years apart, depening on how long it takes for a person to decide to have kids, moths have a new generation every year, fruit flies every few days, bacteria have several in an afternoon. Evolution is a slow process taking many many generations. Its not length of time you should be looking, its generations.

I do however appreciate, Bukky, that you agree that the stories in the bible are, to use your word, not mine, a conspiracy, and thus not true.

[Hazel]

Bunnie wrote: "HAZEL-OK MOTHS--WAS I SHOUTING?YOU KNOW IT IS A LOSING BATTLE-WE CANNOT CHANGE PEOPLES MINDS ONLY THEY CAN DO THAT-ARGUING AND BELITTLING THEM WON'T WORK. I FORGOT -WHAT DID YOU SAY YOU HAVE A DEGR..."

by shouting, I meant the capitalisation :P I was being light hearted :D

My degree is in Wildlife Biology, so its based around anatomy/physiology, ecology, conservation, behaviour, and of course, a smattering of evolution. I love the subject of evolution, I can spend ages looking at evolutionary trees.

[Hazel]

Bunnie wrote: "HAZEL--YOU SEE HOW PERVASIVE THE WORD god IS? EVEN WE OF ANOTHER PERSUASION USE IT."

god knows that true ;P

[Bunnie]

HAZEL, DO YOU THINK MODERN MAN WITH ALL OF THE SCIENTIFIC DISCOVERIES IS CHANGING EVOLUTION? THOSE WHO USED TO DIE BECAUSE OF SOME DISEASE OR CONDTION ARE NOW ABLE TO BREED, SOME GENETIC DISEASES CAN BE TAKEN CARE OF OR TESTED FOR BEFORE BIRTH, BETTER NUTRITION ENABLES MODERN MAN (IN DEVELOPED COUNTRIES) TO LIVE LONGER,WE ARE BECOMMING AWARE OF NATURE AND THE NEED TO CONSERVE (SOME PEOPLE THAT IS)
THE BEES HAVE A PROBLEM NOW AND WE CAN HOPE SOMEONE FINDS THE CAUSE AND CURE BEFORE EXTINCTION-IF THERE DOES HAPPEN TO BE BEES THAT HAVE A NATURAL IMMUNITY TO WHAT EVER IT IS THEY WILL LIVE AND PROCREATE,BABIES BORN WITHOUT THE ABILITY TO EXIST WILL DIE,ONE EXAMPLE OF EVOLUTION IS THE LARGER BIRD IN THE NEST THAT PUSHES IT'S NEST MATE OUT ENSURING IT'S OWN SURVIVAL. DO YOU AGREE OR?

[Connie]

Jessica wrote: "I myself am catholic. I b..."

My sympathies.

[Hazel]

Bunnie, yes, humans are now capable of shaping their own evolution. We are now an evolutionary pressure on ourselves in a way we have never been before. We keep alive those who previously would have died (or even been killed as newborns by the midwife), and as such we are keeping the genes that code for conditions such as down syndrome etc within the population.

And yes, we are an evolutionary pressure on other species too. The moths I mentioned were being effected by man's impact on the natural world. By conserving species too, we are preventing extinctions, thus keeping species alive. BUT many of the extinctions we are preventing would have been extinctions we would have caused, as we have caused extinctions in the past (the passenger pigeon and the dodo are prime examples). On top of this, there are, like the moths, species adapting to the urban environments we create. The common house mouse, one of the most widespread species on the planet has several subspecies, including one that has evolved within large industrial freezer units where food is stored, they have developed long fur and extra subcutaneous fat. Its amazing what can happen to a species in its search for a food supply.

As for the bees, we can only hope.

[Hazel]

So, it always being nice to discover that theres stil more to be discovered, I present this link:

http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evo...

recent evaluations have shown that Kettlewells experiments with the peppered moth weren't the most well designed. It is still agreed that the peppered moth is one of the best examples we have of natural selection in action, but it has been decided that we need more information on ALL the factors effecting the moth to discover if it is just industrialisation that was the decisive factor. It will be interesting to find out what they discover.

[Bunnie]

hazel,oh thanks for that information. i checked out the link--pretty interesting stuff. i am going to get some of the reading material.

[Bunnie]

hazel- i show my ignorance but what is the P and D for?

[Maureen]

Hazel and Bunnie do you think it is wise to review the Kettlewells experiments? You may have to adjust your view if they find new and different evidence that supports other explanations. Just leave well enough alone. Close your minds to this. Don't worry your pretty little heads.....

[Bunnie]

maureen,
obviously you don't understand science--that is the way it works--we have some knowledge of something and possible at a later date another fact is found that changes the way we think about that fact. we are not afraid to change what we think about things-why can't you people understand that-it's very simple- man used to think the Gods were angry and that is what caused disease and disasters
so they decided to kill their children or their relatives to appease them--now we know what causes some diseases and disasters and try to gain knowledge to either overcome them or minimize the effects. we don't have to change anything --but you should!

[Hazel]

Bunnie, I think (and hope) that maureen was being sarcastic.

[Hazel]

Bunnie wrote: "hazel- i show my ignorance but what is the P and D for?"

its not P and D its :P cheeky face with tongue sticking out, and :D big grin. Some people would put a dash in, so :-P and :-D

it took me a moment to work out what you meant :P

[Maureen]

Hazel wrote: "Bunnie, I think (and hope) that maureen was being sarcastic."

um yup...sorry Bunnie...thought you had been keeping up with the convo ;)

[Bunnie]

hazel--sorry about being so dumb--my daughter tells me it has someting to do with a happy face-i still don't see it-i'm trying to get her to copy that page you just sent about the peppered moth and see if she can get me some of the books-
i guess i am getting to wrapped up in these discussions to even see sarcasm-

[cerebus]

Been out of the loop for a while, looks like Hazel has kept things ticking along nicely, I think I'll just lurk :)

[Bunnie]

hazel -now my daughter tells me that upper case is like shouting on the computer--well i didn't know that either. as you can see i am really up on all the latest stuff.oh well i will learn--patience!!

[cerebus]

Anybody who thinks science and evolution aren't full of wonder, take a look at this...
http://www.sciencefriday.com/videos/w...

[Bunnie]

cerebus--thanks for that--it is truly amazing isn't it? someday they will solve the puzzle of how camaflage works-i have watched these animals on NOVA and other nature programs-they are fascinating.

[Alfie]

It is so funny...Maureen and others want to have proofs to prove that God does really exist, and yet their views are already fixed..They claim that there is no evidence of God's existence, and yet, they too do not have an evidence that God does not exist...

@HAzel..it was you who began speaking the painful words..What have you expected from me,then???

If science can create everything, then create for me another world that is similar to the world where we are in..Let your science do it,and I would be converted to your worshipping of science..You are not better than the famous atheist-philosopher who deny God...You are not better than Feuerbach, Nietsche, Sartre, and the well known atheist-scientists like the caliber of Richard Dawkins and Stephen HAwking...yet, they do appreciate the unexplainable truths behind everything that exists though some of them are explainable by science..As for me, I am just enjoying having science beside me helping me to do things easily, but i do not consider it like the way how you, guys, consider it...

I just do not know if who among us here cannot see the realities behind the things...ANd I do not know if who among us here is wasting the time in having a discussion...I do not know if who is blind among us. Is it me or you, who worship science as an ABSOLUTE PROVIDER OF KNOWLEDGE...It is better not to judge, and it is better to respect...Since you are accusing me of not being certain, and proofless for my claims, I am inclined to say the same thing to you...

[Alfie]

Hazel wrote:

There's far more involved than just the funds. The problem here is that people have created divisions based on faith and belief, and want to kill people with different views, and they have the gall to call themselves just and moral for doing that.

When I asked before if the first and second world wars were caused by religious conflict, somebody said that it was ideology that caused it..if you can see, religious wars only happened during the crusade..i am not going to deny that, since it was the catholics and muslim who were involved, and it was true...But in this era, when there is a conlict again, religion is no more a cause..Perhaps, the two mentioned wars are the concrete examples..And if the wars were still perpetuated today, it is now caused by ideologies and personal, and political motives, not anymore religious..I am just confused why you keep on blaming religion for these wars when in fact religion is no more there...Try to look at the situation in the conflict in Israel and Palestine..Is it triggered by religious conviction? Of course, it is a BIG NO...It is more on land...Look at the seemingly friction in Iran with the US forces..is it religious one?Of course, still, it is a BIG NO...It is triggered by the provocation of the other side...is it now wrong if the other side defend itself? Of course not...

Religions all over the world are now trying to build a bridge between them in order to understand each other..With this move, your claim that religion and beliefs create the factions and division of the people are, by no means, FALSE....

[cerebus]

Alfie wrote: "It is so funny...Maureen and others want to have proofs to prove that God does really exist, and yet their views are already fixed..They claim that there is no evidence of God's existence, and yet, they too do not have an evidence that God does not exist..."
What is funny Alfie is your inability to realise that as the person making the claim ("There is a god") it is up to you to provide the evidence. As an atheist I do not say I can prove there is no god, I say that I have seen absolutely no evidence that there is one, so there is no rational reason to believe in one.
I've said it before but I'll say it again....if I claim there's an elephant in your fridge, where does the burden of proof lie? On me to prove that it is there? Or on you to prove that it isn't? I would have said it is obvious that it is up to me to prove its existence, and without that proof you are being entirely rational when you say that based on the lack of evidence you don't believe there is one in there.
Same with god. Until you, the one making the claim, come up with evidence, it is rational for me to not have a belief in a deity.
Let me ask you another question. Do you believe in Shiva and Ganesh? Thor? Zeus? Ea? The FSM? Do you have proof to support your lack of belief in them? No? Then expecting me to have a proof for the non-existence of your particular flavour of deity is the height of hypocrisy.

Alfie said: "As for me, I am just enjoying having science beside me helping me to do things easily, but i do not consider it like the way how you, guys, consider it..."
In other words you are happy when science suits your needs, but when that same science conflicts with your faith, it becomes inconvenient?

Alfie said: "Let your science do it,and I would be converted to your worshipping of science.."
Strawman. Who said science is currently in a position to recreate the conditions that led to the Big Bang? THat doesn't stop us investigating it. And enough with the 'worshiping of science', what you do with your faith is worship, that has nothing to do with how science works or how we view it....I'm prefectly happy for a new scientific theory to come along and supercede any of the current theories, so long as the evidence is there. It has nothing to do with 'worship'....

Alfie said: "Try to look at the situation in the conflict in Israel and Palestine..Is it triggered by religious conviction? Of course, it is a BIG NO"
And why does Israel think they have the rights to that land? 'cos their holy book tells them so. I'd put that down as a BIG YES to a religious basis for that conflict.

Alfie said: "Religions all over the world are now trying to build a bridge between them in order to understand each other..With this move, your claim that religion and beliefs create the factions and division of the people are, by no means, FALSE...."
Yeah, and that seems to be working out quite well, there's still no sectarian violence in the world....oh, wait, there is.

[Maureen]

Alfie wrote: "It is so funny...Maureen and others want to have proofs to prove that God does really exist, and yet their views are already fixed..They claim that there is no evidence of God's existence, and yet,..."

Alphie if you are going to speak for me go back and read what I said. I stated that non believers would NEVER deny the existence of god 100%....the existence of god has not been proven. Current evidence suggests that the existence of god is HIGHLY UNLIKELY. This is different that does not exist 100 %. I'll give you the pink pony explanation.: If I told you there was a pink pony behind your couch but everytime you looked he disappears to Guam so you can never see him. You cannot prove 100% that there is no disappearing pink pony behind your couch, but you can admit that it is highly unlikely. Give me one solid piece of proof and you will convert me to a believer. Do you expect me to believe in this unseeable fairy being because you say he exists. You are a joke.

[Jessica]

Connie, i must clarify. i wasn't speaking as a die hard churchie. the last time i went to church was for my confirmation. I listen to metal, have piercings etc so if i walked into a church they would probably proclaim me a devils child and try to give me an exorcism when i set one foot in the door. I would read the instruction manual on how to rebuild a 69 Chevy engine before i would even contemplate picking up a bible. My knowledge of the disciples consist of I know john and Paul, then George and Ringo hehe. Thanks for the sympathy but its not needed lol


Connie wrote: "Jessica wrote: "I myself am catholic. I b..."

My sympathies."

[cerebus]

Jessica wrote: "My knowledge of the disciples consist of I know john and Paul, then George and Ringo hehe"
Heathen!!! Unbeliever! We all know the true disciples were Roger, Nick, David, Rick and Syd!

[cerebus]

Maureen wrote: "I'll give you the pink pony explanation.:If I told you there was a pink pony behind your couch but everytime you looked he disappears to Guam so you can never see him."
Splitter! The Pink Pony actually disappears to the fridge to stop the elephant from eating all the butter! It's only the corrupt Southern Ponyists who believe that Guam stuff!

[cerebus]

(sorry everyone, I tried to lurk, but I guess I'm not a very good lurker)

[Jennie]

I would like to live in a world where science is the religion.

[Emily]

I went to church for 21 yrs of my life thinkng that religon would be the "right thing". What I learned is that Religon is in a person's own mind and body. You don't need the word "religion" in order to live an honest, moral, respectful, loving, ethical life. As, an agnostic now, I find that yes, it is important to have values. Now for the question, I believe that science needs to remain, in order for experiementation for diseases; ie Cancers, for we can make our own religon in our hearts.

[Maureen]

Cerebus wrote: "Maureen wrote: "I'll give you the pink pony explanation.:If I told you there was a pink pony behind your couch but everytime you looked he disappears to Guam so you can never see him."
Splitter! Th..."

LOL...I stand corrected

[Maureen]

Connie wrote: "Roxolana wrote: "As long as humans have emotions (positive and negative)the GOD won't go away...and as long as they have their mind they will question and rationalize their emotions. Two opposites..."

...and science revises itself when new evidence presents itself.

[Old-Barbarossa]

Cerebus wrote: "Jessica wrote: "My knowledge of the disciples consist of I know john and Paul, then George and Ringo hehe"
Heathen!!! Unbeliever! We all know the true disciples were Roger, Nick, David, Rick and Syd!"

Heretics all!
The truth is through the Church of Nanker Phelge!
The gospels of Mick and Keith, Charlie and Bill...and the apocrypha of Brian, Mick and Ronnie.

[Bukky]

I just take solace from the fact that a time like this have long been prophesied in the bible and I've been charged against it
O bukky,keep that which is committed to thy trust,avoid profane and vain babbling,and oppositions of science so falsely called
Which some professing have erred concerning the faith.1 tim. 6:20

For I am persuaded that neither death, nor life,nor angels and demons,nor principalities,nor powers,nor things present,nor things to come(shall be able to separate me from the love of God)Rom 8:38

[Old-Barbarossa]

"Please allow me to introduce myself
I'm a man of wealth and taste
I've been around for a long, long year
Stole many a mans soul and faith
And I was round when Jesus Christ
Had his moment of doubt and pain
Made damn sure that Pilate
Washed his hands and sealed his fate
Pleased to meet you
Hope you guess my name..."
Sympathy For The Devil
Woo-woo, woo-woo
I can quote gospel too...and sound just as ridiculous...

[Travis]

You really think the bible predicted Dan Brown writing a book that made the Catholic Church seem vaguely interesting and it was worth while to include it on a list along with death...?

Religion: the comedy that writes itself.

Okay, naming the disciples...I used to know this...Peter, Davey, Mike and Mickey...no wait...Groucho, Chico...that doesn't sound right...I might need to look this up...thank god there's wikipedia...

[Maureen]

Here are some thoughts for you believers to ponder and respond to....please do not spew bullshit about god working in mysterious ways and we are not ones to understand how he works....

"A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death."
- Albert Einstein

"Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"
- Epicurus [341–270 B.C.]

"Is the existence of faith an admission that there is some doubt as to the existence of God?"
- Craig Ferguson, 2007

[Connie]

Oh Maureen! Thanks for the post. Excellent.

[A K]

they go hand in hand, you can not cleave the two apart. God is the greatest Scientist.

[Hazel]

Alfie, you compare us to "Feuerbach, Nietsche, Sartre, and the well known atheist-scientists like the caliber of Richard Dawkins and Stephen HAwking".

I personally am flattered that you would draw such a comparison. I'm practically blushing.

Oh and on this:

@HAzel..it was you who began speaking the painful words..What have you expected from me,then???

you're a Christian, so I expect you to turn the other cheek. Unless you're admitting through your large amount of rhetoric, and some very scathing insults that I've not commented on, in revenge for a very small slight, that you're not that great a Christian?

[Hazel]

Cerebus wrote: "Maureen wrote: "I'll give you the pink pony explanation.:If I told you there was a pink pony behind your couch but everytime you looked he disappears to Guam so you can never see him."
Splitter! Th..."

Heretics, both of you. The holy scriptures of the Ponyist Muster Assembly distinctly say that the Pony is purple, with a blue mane and tail, and yellow spots on the rump. You shall spend eternity among wild and violent horses, who are anathema to all ponyists, for believing that the pony is pink.