Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
Shannon wrote: "Please notice I said colonization makes me uncomfortable.... And, ... given my background, I know that plays a part and could, potentially, skew my logic. Fully aware."Aye, I assumed so. :-)
Shannon wrote: "I honestly don't know what side I'd come down on, if forced to choose. However, given my background, I'm guessing I might come down against colonization. Circle of life and all that. It's something I actually hold with. The idea that we'd do something that would benefit conscious beings, aka us, even if there was a chance we'd risk other life, conscious or not, disturbs me. Greatly. How selfish can we be as a species? To do something that might risk other life due to the great benefits we'd reap ...."
Not arguing with your point, but just a thing to consider. Is not every childbirth colonising a certain amount of space on the planet? Every child born is another person to sustain on a planet that it's calculated is already living way beyond sustainable resources? Especially for those of us in the rich west, every child we have costs the pollution and resources of how many children in the third world? Is this not a similar effect to colonisation, just without even bothering to live in the lands we plunder?
This leaves aside that we continue to cut back forests and destroy habitats across the world. Perhaps colonisation of Mars, or maybe of the Moon or another likely sterile body, could actually reduce the damage done to a known environment here?
Shannon wrote: "Of course, we'd also need to discuss how we define life. It wasn't that long ago that some slaveholders considered people from Africa to be less than human. I hear the present ruler of Egypt considers Jewish people to be born of apes and pigs. At what point would we, to benefit ourselves, label life not as significant as our own?"
That's also a very good point. Even today people place value judgements on others based on their own prejudice.
Shannon wrote: "Now, some of the selfsame people, who make this argument, might say we should go to Mars, even if there's a risk to what "life" might exist on that planet. Will they say non-concious life isn't as important as conscious life? Then, we have your argument regarding the difficulty of classifying life. Hmmm.... "
Well the latter part of your argument also leads into questions like "do we have the right to eat?" Not just vegetarianism but any life - even plant life at all? Do we have the right to use anti-biotics or cleaning chemicals to destroy other life that may or may not harm us? Then again if we decided that we don't have the right and destroyed ourselves we would then be destroying the habitat of all the life that lives on, within or in symbiosis with us.
As for the first part of the argument, well for the first time in human history the colonists would have no choice but to form a sustainable environment. They would have to recycle and reclaim from day one. Not only may this create a new form of society that is intrinsically sustainable, but by learning how to succeed they may teach their original world how to do the same before it is far too late.
Yes we have messed up the world, but perhaps we should have hope that humanity can learn? Perhaps when some of us that are living on a world that definitely hasn't been "perfectly created" for us to use as we see fit then people will respect it more rather than less?
Gary wrote: "Not arguing with your point, but just a thing to consider. Is not every childbirth colonising a certain amount of space on the planet? Every child born is another person to sustain on a planet that it's calculated is already living way beyond sustainable resources? Especially for those of us in the rich west, every child we have costs the pollution and resources of how many children in the third world? Is this not a similar effect to colonisation, just without even bothering to live in the lands we plunder?
This leaves aside that we continue to cut back forests and destroy habitats across the world. Perhaps colonisation of Mars, or maybe of the Moon or another likely sterile body, could actually reduce the damage done to a known environment here?"
You're talking to a teacher who makes peanuts, quasi-pun intended, is childless, and lives in a tiny apartment and drives a car that gets good gas mileage. ;)
I can grasp the idea behind what you're saying, though I've not equated births, etc... to colonization. Obviously, there are differences between the two, big ones.
Regarding the last bit, ... "Perhaps colonisation of Mars, or maybe of the Moon or another likely sterile body, could actually reduce the damage done to a known environment here?" ....
It just makes me cringe. We're not responsible for the world we have. What right do we have to go to another world and, possibly, have a detrimental impact there. It just seems wrong to me. But, ... that's me. I'm guessing I might be in the minority (pun not intended) on this one.
This leaves aside that we continue to cut back forests and destroy habitats across the world. Perhaps colonisation of Mars, or maybe of the Moon or another likely sterile body, could actually reduce the damage done to a known environment here?"
You're talking to a teacher who makes peanuts, quasi-pun intended, is childless, and lives in a tiny apartment and drives a car that gets good gas mileage. ;)
I can grasp the idea behind what you're saying, though I've not equated births, etc... to colonization. Obviously, there are differences between the two, big ones.
Regarding the last bit, ... "Perhaps colonisation of Mars, or maybe of the Moon or another likely sterile body, could actually reduce the damage done to a known environment here?" ....
It just makes me cringe. We're not responsible for the world we have. What right do we have to go to another world and, possibly, have a detrimental impact there. It just seems wrong to me. But, ... that's me. I'm guessing I might be in the minority (pun not intended) on this one.
Gary wrote: "Well the latter part of your argument also leads into questions like "do we have the right to eat?" Not just vegetarianism but any life - even plant life at all? Do we have the right to use anti-biotics or cleaning chemicals to destroy other life that may or may not harm us? Then again if we decided that we don't have the right and destroyed ourselves we would then be destroying the habitat of all the life that lives on, within or in symbiosis with us."
True. And, ... I've had some of these thoughts.
True. And, ... I've had some of these thoughts.
Gary wrote: "As for the first part of the argument, well for the first time in human history the colonists would have no choice but to form a sustainable environment. They would have to recycle and reclaim from day one. Not only may this create a new form of society that is intrinsically sustainable, but by learning how to succeed they may teach their original world how to do the same before it is far too late.
Yes we have messed up the world, but perhaps we should have hope that humanity can learn? Perhaps when some of us that are living on a world that definitely hasn't been "perfectly created" for us to use as we see fit then people will respect it more rather than less? "
Colonization as the ultimate "green" incentive .... Wonder if we could do a "stimulus" package to fund it .... (Ultimately, in this economy, I find myself wondering who in heck will be paying for this project. The millionaires who are currently leaving countries and states to avoid tough taxation?)
Regarding your ideas, ... I think you should write a Sci-fi novel with this as your plot. Truly. I'd actually appreciate the idea better in the pages of a book. Further, the reading of such a book, in and of itself, could change people's choices and actions ... here.
If we could prove, yes, prove, that the planet was truly sterile, no living organisms whatsoever, I might be more comfortable with the idea. But, I seem to remember your telling us science can't prove things, 100% prove them. Hope I'm remember that correctly. And, within this discussion, you mentioned classifying life can be very difficult. Given that, I'm still leaning toward anti-colonization.
Yes we have messed up the world, but perhaps we should have hope that humanity can learn? Perhaps when some of us that are living on a world that definitely hasn't been "perfectly created" for us to use as we see fit then people will respect it more rather than less? "
Colonization as the ultimate "green" incentive .... Wonder if we could do a "stimulus" package to fund it .... (Ultimately, in this economy, I find myself wondering who in heck will be paying for this project. The millionaires who are currently leaving countries and states to avoid tough taxation?)
Regarding your ideas, ... I think you should write a Sci-fi novel with this as your plot. Truly. I'd actually appreciate the idea better in the pages of a book. Further, the reading of such a book, in and of itself, could change people's choices and actions ... here.
If we could prove, yes, prove, that the planet was truly sterile, no living organisms whatsoever, I might be more comfortable with the idea. But, I seem to remember your telling us science can't prove things, 100% prove them. Hope I'm remember that correctly. And, within this discussion, you mentioned classifying life can be very difficult. Given that, I'm still leaning toward anti-colonization.
Gary wrote: "Rajat wrote: "neither of the worlds would last very long...."Why? The world has gotten along fine before most religions were invented, and has survived religions rising and falling. Each religi..."
Umm Gary? Not everyone believes that science was before religion, it's actually the opposite! :/
Mahz wrote: "Gary wrote: "Rajat wrote: "neither of the worlds would last very long...."Why? The world has gotten along fine before most religions were invented, and has survived religions rising and falling...."
Uh, yeah science did come before religion.
That depends in what you believe Drew!
I believe in truth not fairy-tales.
Science is about discovering new things and ways to use those new discoveries (fire, tools, weapons), these things existed before religion came about.
Fairy tales have an ending, religion has not yet ended :/
Mahz wrote: "Fairy tales have an ending, religion has not yet ended :/"Oh that's sooo clever, not, I'm referring to the belief in a magical creature.
Lol drew ok 'not clever' whatever you say :)Magical creature huh? God?
He ain't magical! he creates miracles, he doesn't have a wand and wizards hat!
Mahz wrote: "Lol drew ok 'not clever' whatever you say :)Magical creature huh? God?
He ain't magical! he creates miracles, he doesn't have a wand and wizards hat!"
He or she, whatever you prefer is still imaginary, thus a magical creature, kind of like a unicorn.
Heather wrote: "I know this may seem a bit weird, but I believe that science and religion go have in hand. In my mind, science explains religion and they together form societal networks. It is when you get extremi..."I agree that science and religion go hand in hand. I believe and you may not agree with me but I think that God gave the scientists the ability to do what they do. Just my thought.
That's imagination, something that are in small children books
Mahz wrote: "That's imagination, something that are in small children books"And in religious people's minds.
Unicorns aren't in religious people's minds drew!
Mahz wrote: "Unicorns aren't in religious people's minds drew!"but fairy tales are
I already told you drew, but your not reading it properly, so is will say it again, fairy tales have endings, religion does not, so why would we imagine such things? That is what I don't get Drew!
Mahz wrote: "I already told you drew, but your not reading it properly, so is will say it again, fairy tales have endings, religion does not, so why would we imagine such things? That is what I don't get Drew!"Fine, imaginary friends then, that better?
Friend maybe, but imagine?...Nope I think not. Ok, not all religious people can be right, right? So that means some of them could possibly be imagining I'd don't think your completely wrong but then again not completely right!
Mahz wrote: "Friend maybe, but imagine?...Nope I think not. Ok, not all religious people can be right, right? So that means some of them could possibly be imagining I'd don't think your completely wrong but the..."Yeah I am, you just said it, how could they all be right and yet they all do think they are right.
When did I say all religion is right, there are loads, obviously not all are right, right?
Mahz wrote: "When did I say all religion is right, there are loads, obviously not all are right, right?"Just face it, none of them are right. Why would a supposed loving god have so many different factions serving him in so many different ways, each one disagreeing with the others, dividing them instead of bringing them all together. It's ludicrous and chaotic.
Because, just like you, in every human nature, everyone wants to be right!
Mahz wrote: "Because, just like you, in every human nature, everyone wants to be right!"And of course, none of them are right.
So your not right either?Confused?
Mahz wrote: "Unicorns aren't in religious people's minds drew!"Unicorns are mentioned in the bible
Mahz wrote: "I already told you drew, but your not reading it properly, so is will say it again, fairy tales have endings, religion does not, so why would we imagine such things? That is what I don't get Drew!"so, whats revelations then?
Unicorns in the bibleNumbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Psalm 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Psalm 29:6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn.
Some Dragons
Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness.
And Satyrs....
13:21 But wild beasts of the desert shall lie there; and their houses shall be full of doleful creatures; and owls shall dwell there, and satyrs shall dance there.
13:22 And the wild beasts of the islands shall cry in their desolate houses, and dragons in their pleasant palaces: and her time is near to come, and her days shall not be prolonged.
Mahz wrote: "So your not right either?Confused?"
I have no religious beliefs, so I am right.
The worst theory ever, no offence because that made no sense at all! Drew?
Hazel wrote: "Mahz wrote: "Unicorns aren't in religious people's minds drew!"Unicorns are mentioned in the bible"
Do I believe in the bible fully? No!...
Hazel wrote: "Mahz wrote: "I already told you drew, but your not reading it properly, so is will say it again, fairy tales have endings, religion does not, so why would we imagine such things? That is what I don..."I do not understand Hazel!
Mahz wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Mahz wrote: "Unicorns aren't in religious people's minds drew!"Unicorns are mentioned in the bible"
Do I believe in the bible fully? No!..."
How do you know which bits to believe in and which to discard?
Mahz wrote: "The worst theory ever, no offence because that made no sense at all! Drew?"Neither does believing in a imaginary deity.
Well Drew they are all good statements but there is only one answer to the one question everyone is and always will be fussing about, isn't there?And shanna, Because half of what the bible says we believe because there are some proofs around the world such as the Karbala and the people of it!
What about Karbala?
What about it? Well for starters it's the place where the people who were most dear to Islam and maybe some to the Christians are buried there!That about the Karbala!
Mahz wrote: "Well Drew they are all good statements but there is only one answer to the one question everyone is and always will be fussing about, isn't there?And shanna, Because half of what the bible says w..."
I don't have a question I already know the truth, there is no god.
Good for you, drew! Believe what you want to believe and I will stick to my beliefs, at least that won't create a fuss, would it?.
Mahz wrote: "What about it? Well for starters it's the place where the people who were most dear to Islam and maybe some to the Christians are buried there!That about the Karbala!"
Yes I understood about the Battle of Karbala.
And that is evidence of the bible how?
Ok not the evidence in the bible but thePeople who died were linked to the people in the bible!
There is much more to just 'The Battle Of Karbala'!
Shanna wrote: "Unicorns in the bible
Numbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Psalm 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be ..."
Ummm....
What, exactly, is your source for this information? Which Bible are you using?
You see, I have a Bible ... and just took it out.
Care to explain this post, Shanna?
Hazel, .... Would you like to add any cites to Shanna's list?
Numbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Psalm 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be ..."
Ummm....
What, exactly, is your source for this information? Which Bible are you using?
You see, I have a Bible ... and just took it out.
Care to explain this post, Shanna?
Hazel, .... Would you like to add any cites to Shanna's list?
So how do you know which to believe and which not to?
Shanna wrote: "Numbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Psalm 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Psalm 29:6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn."
This is inaccurate information. The NIV version of the Bible does not use the word unicorn in these passages. "Wild ox" is used.
Psalm 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unicorn: I shall be anointed with fresh oil.
Job 39:9 Will the unicorn be willing to serve thee, or abide by thy crib? 39:10 Canst thou bind the unicorn with his band in the furrow? or will he harrow the valleys after thee?
Isaiah 34:7 And the unicorns shall come down with them, and the bullocks with the bulls; and their land shall be soaked with blood, and their dust made fat with fatness.
Psalm 29:6 He maketh them also to skip like a calf; Lebanon and Sirion like a young unicorn."
This is inaccurate information. The NIV version of the Bible does not use the word unicorn in these passages. "Wild ox" is used.
Shanna wrote: "Some Dragons
Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
This is inaccurate information. The NIV version of the bible does not use the word "dragons" as Shanna has here. The word "jackals" is used.
Job 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness."
This is inaccurate information. The NIV version of the bible does not use the word "dragons" as Shanna has here. The word "jackals" is used.
Shannon wrote: "Shanna wrote: "Unicorns in the bibleNumbers 23:22 God brought them out of Egypt; he hath as it were the strength of an unicorn.
Psalm 92:10 But my horn shalt thou exalt like the horn of an unico..."
King James version and http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/
Do you dispute the veracity Shannon?
Shannon wrote: "Shanna wrote: "Some DragonsJob 30:29 I am a brother to dragons, and a companion to owls.
Malachi 1:3 And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilder..."
And it's not inaccurate it's just not your version of the bible.
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I can understand that, but it is also important not to base morality on our instinctive feelings. After all ..."
While I would make a crap astronaut, I am all for us getting out there and seeing what we can find.
I'll have to wait till they can handle tourists, I guess.
Had not heard about the asteroid mining, that is pretty cool.