Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 751-800 of 12,463

[Bunnie]

pupsi-message 753-animals exist -procreate,eat,feel pain, are able to figure out how to solve some problems -and all this without religious or scientific belief. how can this be?

[Bunnie]

Sabine wrote: "A world without science...I can't do without faith."

[Hazel]

"Sabine wrote: "A world without science...I can't do without faith."

ok sabine, thats your kids dead by the age of 25, congratulations, you chose religion over science.

[Bunnie]

hazel-message 787 what you said about the clergy getting a free paycheck and free lodgings is the truth-HOW ABOUT TAXING THE CHURCHES AND ALL CULTS-the priests, ministers and prophets are all wage earners that do not pay taxes yet they live off people who do work and pay taxes. how do they maintain those expensive buildings (churches and synagogs) and if there were truly a Jesus or God why the expensive buildings?why not under a tree or out in a pasture under the beautiful skies. why all the expensive dress of the religious leaders?

[Bunnie]

hazel-still having trouble withthis computer-could not get a thing all day yesterday

[Maureen]

Bunnie wrote: "hazel-message 787 what you said about the clergy getting a free paycheck and free lodgings is the truth-HOW ABOUT TAXING THE CHURCHES AND ALL CULTS-the priests, ministers and prophets are all wage ..."

Religion is such a waste of human capital. Imagine if churches were taxed or never built in the first place, and that money was spent to feed the hungry? Heal the sick? Can you imagine the good that could be done? Imagine the people who waste an hour a week in church instead of contributing
time to their fellow man.

[Hazel]

A case study into where the donations for charitable works was spent by one cathedral:

St Albans Cathedral Case Study (Year 2000)

£844,000 was recieved by the church in the form of business and personal donations, this is how the money was spent:

Heat and Lighting, etc: £31 000
Other (+debts): £52 000
Abbey life + worship: £376 000
Building Upkeep: £339 000
Donations: £46 000
Total: £844 000
It is a trivial matter to see then, when you give a donation how much you are giving to charity:

Total: £844 000
To Charity: £46 000
% to charity (rounding up): 5.5%

Let us put this into real terms. If you give a donation of £100 pounds to St. Albans Cathedral in order to feel good about yourself, to aid the poor, for charity, etc, then the amount that actually goes to charity is £5.50. 95% of your money has gone elsewhere.

Now, I expect there to be overheads in running a charity, but paying for their debts? Or their worship? And this from an organisation that doesn't pay tax (secular charities aren't given the same tax breaks, which is disgusting).

Compare this to Oxfam, a secular charity, in the 2010, 11 period:

Income from donations: 262.9m
Costs (outgoings for paying for fundraising): 20.8m
Net income from donations: 242.1m

Then add on the net income from oxfam shops, 20.9m (about 17% rounded down, of the trade income for oxfam), and add on gifts made to them of 13.6m, and then add on what they class as "other income" of 4.9m, and thats a total available for charitable work of 281.5m.

When you look at the totals, that 281.5m is 76% (rounded down) of the total income of the charity going to the people you think you're giving it for.

http://www.oxfam.org.uk/resources/dow...

[Bunnie]

hazel-EXACTLY

[Alfie]

considering religion as merely social, but not what it really is, is reducing religion to our own view about it...religion is not just merely social...And looking religion through that way, I think, there is nothing that we need to talk about religion here...

And when the EXISTENCE OF CHRIST into this world is denied, I also raise up my hand and lay down my weapons since everything here is denied...even the existence of the MAN...

[Hazel]

Alfie, I have reached the point where I am so convinced of your utter deliberate ignorance, that I will not even deign to respond to anything you have put in that post.

[Bunnie]

hazel, i was thinking Alfie does not make sense-he cannot be reached so why bother.he cannot even express himself in a clear way.

[Travis]

So, as long as Alfie can pray( to a guy that's everywhere) and keep the rain off him, he'd take that over science...?
Jesus never used a church. Go get yourself a mound, Alfie, it was good enough for JC.

and actually, not all taxes go to bombs. Some go to roads, hospitals, schools, fire departments and paying Rick Perry's salary.
So, the average is 4 out of 6 taxes paying for good ( and scientific) stuff.

[Hazel]

Bunnie wrote: "hazel, i was thinking Alfie does not make sense-he cannot be reached so why bother.he cannot even express himself in a clear way."

Bunnie, I can forgive him not expressing himself clearly, I checked after my last post, he's from the Philippines, but personally, if I didn't speak the language being used well enough to communicate effectively, I wouldn't get involved in the conversation, and on top of that, he's catholic, so bound to take instant offence, especially when I'm of the opinion that the catholic church is a nest of vipers, and that the pope is a cunt (yes, he deserves that naughty word). I mean, kudos for trying, really, but sometimes you have to spot when its a bad idea to enter the debate. Though you could say its no excuse, Rita manages just fine. Just another reason to back off and leave him to his outmoded belief system.

[Bunnie]

hazel-kudos to you for spotting the problem

[Bunnie]

whirlwind--another thinking person--hurray

[Maureen]

Bunnie wrote: "hazel-kudos to you for spotting the problem"

Tell it like it is Hazel. You are right on all counts. I for one am glad you spotted that he is not a native English speaker because it would be even more worrisome if he was.

[Bunnie]

maureen-it's bad enough as it is-just because you do not speak the language does not mean you can't be logical in your thinking-people who read scientific articles and books get a better idea of what science is and isn't-this is the damage religion has done over centuries. if not for men of courage we would still be sacrificing non-believers

[Maureen]

Bunnie wrote: "maureen-it's bad enough as it is-just because you do not speak the language does not mean you can't be logical in your thinking-people who read scientific articles and books get a better idea of wh..."

True. I guess I'm just glad his English was not a product of the American education system.

[Hazel]

To be frank, I've met english people with worse language skills than Alfie has, I worked in a school for a little while, and there were sixteen year olds who couldn't even spell their own names, but that was because the system had failed them. And I had to block an old school friend on facebook, because I wanted to stick pins in my eyes every time she posted.

[Maureen]

Alfie wrote: "it is not easy to accept a harsh comments...And it took me lots of time consider them..

we have been talking so many things here about science and religion, and we came up the point that the discu..."
Alphie...we are not making fun of your grammar. You are not a native English speaker and we realize this. Congrats on trying to express yourself. I have issues with your ideas, but that's what this forum is about...sharing ideas whether you agree or disagree. I kindly refuse your invitation to visit jesus.com. 25 years ago I was one of you. But then I started to ask questions. That's when it all fell apart for me. Religious and Christian faith does not hold up to rational scrutiny on any level. I did not lose my faith, I gave it up...like Santa Claus and the tooth fairy. I'm not mocking you, and at times I envy you and believers....to be in that comfy childlike place where we are secure in the knowledge that Mommy and Daddy can fix everything. To know we are taken care of. To not have to think for ourselves.My faith is now placed in myself, my fellow man when deserving of it and the observable truths (call that science if you want) of this incredible world.

[Bunnie]

alfie-we non-believers should not make fun of you. that is no way to show you how science really works-if you were a diabetic in the early 20th century you probably would die-after Banting and Best discovered insulin you live, polio killed many childlren in the early years until the discovery of a vaccine for prevention --tuberculosis is still a dangerous disease which can be controlled with medications,people have operations to restore the function of their hearts with bypasses--valves are replaced,brain surgery is preformed for various reasons. do you think possibly that scientific research is responsible for any of this. praying does not effect change on any disease only the discovery of the cause and the cure made by dedicated researchers.

[Naomi]

Could definitely live without organised religions, especially when there opposing. I am not religious along with most of my family, friends and acquaintances.
This does not mean there's no wonder,awe,love or faith in my life.

[Bunnie]

naomi-i get what you mean about wonder,faith and awe in your life. when i watch programs like the one on hummingbirds it is truely amazing what these little birds can do and how beautiful they are. even watching the Jaguars running is beautiful--like a ballet- i do hate the fact that they are hunting but they have to to live.looking up at the heavens at night or the mountains with snow on them is a beautiful sight.a beautiful sunset is awesome.and faith that you can accomplish a task successfully makes one happy.

[Alfie]

Maureen wrote:I kindly refuse your invitation to visit jesus.com. 25 years ago I was one of you. But then I started to ask questions. That's when it all fell apart for me.

I intended to invite you to visit this website because science and religion were treated as if they were totally belligerent against each other, when in fact, scientists, believers and non-believers, even Richard Dawkins, appreciated that there were cases that science could not explain, yet were already talked about in religion..Much more because the existence of Jesus was also denied..Since science is believed to be the best one to prove this, I find this website helpful because it does not take one side only..Both science and religion are treated there fairly in answering the questions of both sides..

by the way, thank you, maureen..

[Maureen]

I understand your point...BUT...Science does not have all the answers but always strives to find the truth through the knowable and observable. Somethings are beyond knowing and beyond the grasp of science for now. Because it cannot yet be explained is no excuse for making up a version and then tell people they must follow this blindly and may not subject the version to examination.It would be great if religion only "talked" about things that are as yet unexplained and proffered theories for discussion, but that is not what religion does. It commands your unquestioning faith in doctrine. Science demands no such thing from its followers and makes changes to its knowledge base when observable truths and examinations warrant this. As a non believer I can only respect your right to believe as long as it does not harm me or others. When believers interfere in public policy and thwart scientific research that can benefit mankind, such as stem cell research, I have serious issues with that.

[Alfie]

I agree to that...RESPECt can be the best word that could be said between science and religion...

[Hazel]

Alfie wrote: "I agree to that...RESPECt can be the best word that could be said between science and religion..."

yes, it would be great if religion could give science the same respect that science gives religion, never does science say you're not free to believe whatever you want. However, isn't it a shame that religion continuously blocks and disrespects science, and prevents the finding of cures to diseases, and blocks the improving of peoples quality of life.

[Naomi]

I seem to feel that the world is becoming a more fundamentalist (not sure that's the right word to use) place. I've always held very liberal views and thought they echoed the majority of my society's views, however in recent years either I'm noticing it more or Religion is playing a more political role. This slightly worries me because I think it's harder for individuals to assert rights not to believe than for a group of believers to believe.
I guess seen in one light Religion can be quite scary just as Science can be when it's pushing moral and ethical boundary's that affect our lives. (genetics, artificial intelligence ect.)
I find some aspects of science extremely exciting. Like a lift into space wow or teleportation. I wouldn't want to live without this striving for progress and understanding. I like my washing machine and flat screen computer.

[Alfie]

why just speak of it? Do it..

[Alfie]

Hazel wrote:


yes, it would be great if religion could give science the same respect that science gives religion, never does science say you're not free to believe whatever you want. However, isn't it a shame that religion continuously blocks and disrespects science, and prevents the finding of cures to diseases, and blocks the improving of peoples quality of life.


This argument is repeatedly said..That religion is like that. That religion is hindering science..The claim that has no proof at all..I have never seen religion running after science to stop science from what it is doing...After all, when religion speaks something, it does not say TO STOP but to slow down because what science is doing might be risky and could destroy human life instead of developing it...I can't really see the logic of this claim, because it defies the facts and it goes beyond logic..If this claim is true, why in the country where religion is so strong, science also exists and is used for development, development of many things such as medicines, materials such as machines that could lessen the work of human hands, and also, in creating machines for war, so that the cost of the lives of the soldier will also be lessened for the rockets, missiles, robots will replace.

Actually, even if religion shouts to the whole world that it is against science with all its promise of progress, those who do not feel themselves inclined to the teaching of religion can freely do whatever they want..Many people do not listen and do not believe what the religion says, so why be bothered?? You already have freedom, the freedom that you have already possessed for how many years of your Declaration of Independency..

[Maureen]

Science exists because it supports truth. It exists despite some peoples religious convictions....come on Alphie you can't be that naive. Religion stands in the way of science and progress all the time. Have you never seen zealots protesting at the funerals of soldiers, Christians doing all they can to prevent stem cell research including the last Christian president, fundamentalists protesting a woman's right to choose for her own body, Muslims cutting the clitoris off little girls and demanding that sharia law supersede a country's law, fundamentalist opposing gay marriage? These are not all issues of science but they show where religion interferes or tries to interfere with either science or public policy. Like I said believe what you want, but stay the hell out of my life with your archaic fairytales.

[Bunnie]

maureen,between you and hazel i think we have all expressed our beliefs pretty well-it is too bad those indoctrinated into a way of thinking that has held back the worlds progress for centuries cannot be convinced to even read some of the scientific articles written by our most advanced thinkers. their minds cannot be penetrated i guess. it still is a mystery to me how anyone who has a scientific background and education can still believe in an imaginary being who supposedly rules the world. they canot see disasters as being an occurance that is not controlled by anyone or anything.we should stop wasting our time trying to change them but get on with our own readings and search for knowledge. we still know very little about our world.

[Hazel]

Alfie, genetic scientists in Newcastle came up with a way to grow stem cells in the lab. Stem cells are very much needed for research into genetic conditions and the chances of curing them. The churches (christian and muslim) kicked off and stopped it continuing, claiming that they were creating animal/human hybrids, which is so very far from the truth, as anyone who is even slightly scientifically literate would know. This is just one example of religion preventing medical and scientific advances.

[Hazel]

Bunnie, you are of course correct. Its just that I so want everyone to understand that they don't need to shackle themselves to a "god" to eb a good person, to be a moral person, to be a happy person.

Can someone explain to me why its considered ok for a catholic priest to live in alarge rectory, with a housekeeper (that's the norm , I believe), but any women who join the church as nuns are left to live in dormitories and cells smaller than a prisoner gets.

[Maureen]

Hazel you could argue very effectively that those of us who are not shackled to a god are in fact more moral if we live good lives because we do so with no expectation of a reward or fear of retribution.The believers are coerced into being moral.

[Bunnie]

hazel,because women are second class citizens of course! i told you about going to the parish in
San Diego where my mother-in-law went to help her mother who was housekeeper for the priests-you are right-they live very priveledged lives with someone to cook for them ,drive them, take care of their clothes and who knows what else. until those cattle find out how stupid they are to give all their money to those con men nothing will change.Just try to tax the churches. wow! how much money do you think we would get from the POOR Catholic church?even the nuns have been conned.

[Connie]

Bunnie wrote: "whirlwind--another thinking person--hurray"

Thank you! :-)

[Connie]

I respectfully have to disagree with some of you that science supports "truth"--it does however, support research in search of knowledge and discovery. It no more has the corner on truth than religion does, although I have to say it is a lot closer to capital T Truth than any religion is. Religion trumpets that it knows the truth but that's a lot of hot air and...well, I think we all know that myth helps us to discover 'universal truths', but not THE Truth. What is truth anyway? It's up for debate.

[Jessica]

Unfortunately i think that in the realm of human condition one cannot exist without the other. Mind you i am speaking from faith vs science rather than religion vs science.I myself am catholic. I believe in god or a higher presence regardless of which you would call him/her and god is however you perceive it to be. If god is a pink polka dot elephant in someones eyes then all power to them, they have faith in something. I however do not believe in religion.Religious texts are still penned by human hands and thus subject to their own beliefs rather then that of "god" Science and religion do share common proclivities in which they can both be stubborn. Science at least asks why and move further towards an answer. Religion however says this is how it is and always will be. The human race will stagnate if we thought how the various churches want us to think. Science and religion do not have all the answers but at least science tells us to not stop asking questions.

[Hazel]

I disagree, in the realm of the human condition, science could easily survive without religion, religion however, couldn't survive without science. Science is responsible for the printing presses used to print all that mythology that gets force fed to millions of people. Science is responsible for ink. Science is responsible for the creation of roads, boats and other vehicles that carried the people who carried "the word". And more to the point, science is responsible for the technology that allowed the creation of parchment and vellum, and the use of pigments for writing that allowed some people just short of 2000 years ago onwards to make up the stories for the bible in the first place.

I admit, that a lot of people misunderstand the role religion has had in the past in science, that a lot of science was funded by the church. But, I can conjecture that if the church hadn't been there, then funding would have come from elsewhere, as the wealth would have been distributed differently. A lot of people also misunderstand that the dark ages weren't quite so unenlightened as they think, and that back then the church taught the bible as pure allegory, not as the word of god. It wasn't until a couple of centuries after the dark ages that the enforcement of reading the bible as literal came in. Anyway, the church changed its viewpoint, and science was repressed by it.

I also find it quite contradictory, Jessica, for you to say you don't believe in religion, but to also say that you are a catholic, you can't have it both ways. If you don't believe in religion, but you have faith in god, then you shouldn't be labelling yourself as a particular denomination, just claiming that you have your personal faith, and all power to you for having it, even if it makes no sense when exposed to real scrutiny. But by labelling yourself as catholic, you are implying that you accept catholic dogma and strictures, and are thus part of the religion. I am, however, willing to accept that I'm being pedantic over your choice of words, and that you do actually mean you have a personal faith that doesn't include any part of Catholicism, or going to church, as there is no church of your personal faith.

Religion is stubborn in its refute of observable fact that makes the existence of god massively unlikely, or as its been put before "faith is the denial of observation in order to preserve a belief". Science is stubborn in that it... wait, no, science is constantly changing, no stubbornness there. You can get stubborn scientists, but then, they're only human, but the field of science itself is in constant flux, always changing what we know.

I agree with the last bit, yes, science tells us not to stop asking questions, so maybe, it is a little stubborn in its suggestion that we don't stunt ourselves by thinking we know all the answers, and that we, to use a cliche, can be all we can be. I can forgive that sort of stubbornness, the sort that says learn, and improve yourself, and improve the world.

[Hazel]

Connie, your "blasphemous" conjectures have made me decide to post the blasphemous conjectures I had last night while having a bout of insomnia. I was idly thinking about some stuff, and I remembered that we'd already mentioned that revelations claims that only 144,000 virgin Jewish boys would be allowed into heaven as something other than a slave. So, does this mean that those catholic priests who were so interested in young boys thought they were emulating their god and his tastes, because really, that set of verses does seem to suggest that god likes them young, pure, male and circumcised. It does also give a new slant on the immaculate conception thing, god obviously doesn't like girls, and so did it without touching her...

Cue shouting in three, two, one...

[Bukky]

Hazel wrote:Religion is stubborn in its refute of observable fact that makes the existence of god massively unlikely, or as its been put before "faith is the denial of observation in order to preserve a belief".

I think you should take a closer look and actually realize that religion have not refuted scientific facts but instead, though through literal and poetic means have earlier made known some scientific discoveries

Psalm 135:7
He causes the vapors to ascend from the ends of the earth;
He makes lightning for the rain;
He brings the wind out of His treasuries.
In these verses you can see several phases of the hydrologic cycle—the worldwide processes of evaporation, translation aloft by atmospheric circulation, condensation with electrical discharges, and precipitation.

Does it really matter how a truth or fact is discovered.Religion been "naive" dosen't make it less effective.
For all I care I can put my kneels to the ground and find out stuffs about you and save myself some b andwidth

[Bukky]

I also think it is not a good idea to associate the word "faith" with just religion.
Every living being must in fact have faith to live.It is true that religion helps people to further express their faith and trust in a being-but tell me,the last time you perhaps made a request to someone or expectant for something, a new job perhaps, what do you call that sort of uprising in your heart earnestly expecting a positive response- Hope?

[Hazel]

Bukky, I can't express how frustrated it makes me to see you quote religious scripture and claim it as a scientific discovery. We actually know how lightening is created, and rain, and wind, and its not because god does it. You've claimed a scientific verse, when all the verse says is "god did it".

Yes, it does matter how a "truth" is discovered. Truth can be subjective, but if there is no evidence for something you claim to be true, then it is as good as false. It was once "true" (in that it was what was accepted) that the sun went round the earth, as preached by the church, but that didn't stop it being false. The truth, and the fact of the matter was that the earth goes round the sun, scientific observation showed us that, an no amount of saying otherwise, at any time in the past, present or future can change that.

And honestly, you try kneeling and praying to find out about me, you come back and tell me what god has told you. Should be good for a laugh.

Oh, and no-one has claimed that faith is the province of religion only. However, you're claiming that religion furthers faith, no it doesn't, it makes the faith blind.

[Alfie]

Bukky...It's really tiresome to argue with these kind of people...They would like to limit your own argument and want you to follow in their own..Mind you, these people are not able to get out in their own mind...They are imprisoned in their immanentist view of everything, they desire to explain many things scientifically..they keep on attacking my faith which is contained in the religion where I belong..And yet they do not see how their science destroys the human existence and they call that as PROGRESS OF SCIENCE...I give up..

[Maureen]

Bukky...how has religion ever been effective in anything other than mind control? What advancements in the human condition has religion made? Zero. Religion and blind faith in ideology has caused almost exclusively all of the man made suffering in this world. Religion has not refuted scientific fact? what world do you live in? Turn on a tv and listen to the creationist garbage spewed forth for starters. Evolution can be proven in a lab in just 24 hours with fruit flies. Man and apes evolved from a common ancestor (there is no missing link, no half man half ape, just a creature that somewhere around 700 million years ago took two different evolutionary paths based on the stresses for survival he was placed under)...don't come back with god put fossils on this earth to test our faith....ludicrous.

[Alfie]

FACTS:

- Amount that the 2006 Defense Department proposal requests for researching low-yield nuclear weapons - $9,000,000(Arms Control Association)

- Dollar value of global arms sales, 2003 - $28.5 billion, in 2004 - $37 billion(New York times,8/30/05)

- AMount cost of all 16 Un peacekeeping missions currently underway - $3,870,000,000(UN Department of Peacekeeping Operation)

- Monthly cost of the US operation in Iraq - $4,100,000,000(US Department of Defense)

- Cost of "The Sword" an unmanned robo-soldier euipped with rifle, machine gun, or rocket launchers - $230,000, and there were eight of it during the Operation in Iraq(Picatinny Arsenal/Harper's Research)

These are where your taxes are going...Small enough?

[Maureen]

That is because you have no basis for argument Aphie except for fairytales. I am not trying to convert you. Look at the evidence for or against god. If you give me just one shred of evidence that there is a god I will be converted tho. Can't say the same for a sheep like you. The evidence against there being a god is overwhelming and you refuse to look. No non believer will tell you 100% there is no god. That is unknowable BUT the likelihood that there is a supreme being is almost nil based on evidence. Show me the proof Alphie, show me the proof. Ahhh that's what I thought...now go back to wasting your life honoring a non existent deity. Yes now I am mocking you.....

[Maureen]

Yes Alphie, this is evidence of humans wasting precious resources and no better than the humans and resources wasted by donating and working for a church or religious organization. Your point?

[Alfie]

maureen..It is either or...Either you, or me who is wasting of time.I do not have time for converting you..Besides, your conviction is already fixed of not believing...So why convert you?After all, you do not want to be converted..You have already converted yourself into something...