Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 6,451-6,500 of 12,463

[Travis]

Drew wrote: "As requested by Travis
http://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html
http://www.whale.to/b/thule_society_h...
//www.ushistory.org/declaration/related...
http://parareligion.ch/
http://www.thel..."

Hey! The Thule society. they showed up in the Hellboy comic.

and I did know about the guys from the indiana Jones movie.
Come on! You think George Lucas just makes stuff up?

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "I still don't see where you are getting that from but oh well, I have to admit you threw me for a loop on this one. I mean many of these secret societies are common knowledge that can easily be obtained through books and the internet. I gave a source on the Vatican, freemason, mafia scandal. Was it the names of the secret societies, do I seriously have to cite that, most people will look that kind of thing up themselves. Why should I even care about this, cs is a troll, he doesn't deserve the same amount of respect I would give to you. "
Hi Drew, I can see where you are coming from, and I have been in similar positions in this, and other discussions, where you think to yourself "I can't believe that people don't already know that", but for an online discussion like this the assumption has to be made that the other person doesn't know (and I don't mean assuming they are stupid) and that we need to point them to the evidence we consider acceptable or that we ourselves rely on. One problem with telling people to go find the evidence themselves is we can't be sure they will find the same evidence we use....as I am sure you have found, there is 'evidence' for every position you want to think of out there on the internet. Someone googling for 'secret societies' is just as likely to either find 'evidence' that they don't exist, or 'evidence' that you yourself would consider laughably poor that they do exist and then use that to say "You believe this?!?". Safest approach (which you have taken) is to provide the evidence you yourself feel supports your position and you consider reliable. This can of course be disputed, but you can then legitimately expect evidence that contradicts yours.

[cerebus]

Sarah wrote: "Religion is also the vital part of marriage"
Evidence for this please? Are you suggesting it is not possible to have a proper marriage without religion?

[cerebus]

Sarah wrote: "Maybe somehow we will find a balance. "
And in instances where your religious beliefs contradict scientific consensus, how do you resolve this contradiction?

[cerebus]

Travis wrote: "Now it's gonna get ugly.
god I can shrug off, but besmirching the Beatles?
It's clobbering time! "
Ugly? :)
I didn't and don't besmirch the Beatles, I quite like most of their stuff, but in much the same way as religious zealots overstate the case for religion, I find some Beatles fans overstate their importance and influence. Claims like "modern music wouldn't exist as it does today if it weren't for the Beatles!" (which is a claim I've heard made) are overstating their importance. Were they influential? Certainly. The most influential band ever? Nope, plenty of other bands of the same, and earlier and later, times were just as influential in their own ways or genres....
As I said, not dissing them, just trying to temper some of the rhetoric surrounding them.
I do also have a theory that they are dieing off in order of talent.....which means Ringo will be the next to go.....

[Drew]

Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "I still don't see where you are getting that from but oh well, I have to admit you threw me for a loop on this one. I mean many of these secret societies are common knowledge that can ..."

That does make sense now that I see it written out, thank you for your input on this matter. There are a lot of religious websites whose theories get pretty far out there.

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "That does make sense now that I see it written out, thank you for your input on this matter. There are a lot of religious websites whose theories get pretty far out there. "
It's the flipside of the benefits of the Internet and making information widely available....it means *any* (mis)information is available and can be seen as having equal footing as any other piece of information. The result is fringe views are given equal weight with scientific consensus, and that there are websites out there to support any position you wish to hold. It's why discussions like this require people to show where they source their evidence from, to allow everyone else to make their own judgements on the reliability of the claimed evidence. It (should) also force people to evaluate claims that may not support their own position....leaving people to their own devices (and everyone is guilty of this, myself included) tends to mean they only read sites which support their own position, which can give the misleading impression that the evidence is stronger than it is, or that there is less conflicting evidence than there actually is.... confirmation bias

[Drew]

Cerebus wrote: "Travis wrote: "Now it's gonna get ugly.
god I can shrug off, but besmirching the Beatles?
It's clobbering time! "
Ugly? :)
I didn't and don't besmirch the Beatles, I quite like most of their stuff,..."

I tend to agree with Travis on this, I really think they are the most influential rock band there ever was. Sure there are plenty who don't care for them but we're not talking about that really. Were talking about, or at least I am, them revolutionizing music in general.

They ignored all of the constraints and boundaries of pop music that were established and broadened freedom of art and people's world view of music. Not only that, no one band has ever dominated the charts they way they did in their time. They have 23 of the Top 500 songs of all time which is the most of any artist. They pioneered certain recording techniques from the damn near the start of their career, being the first group ever to employ feedback, one of the first rock bands to use a sitar, tape loops, Moog synthesizers, and backwards vocals. They popularized the concept album which served as inspiration to The Who and Pink Floyd. “Helter Skelter” and “I Want You (She’s So Heavy)” are considered two of the first heavy metal songs. They changed the science of recording, using multiple tracks instead of playing live and are one of the first, if not the first rock bands to use stringed instruments in their recordings. They were unlike many artists of their day in that they wrote their own songs instead of having other songwriters do all the work for them. They also influenced fashion on a grand scale, so much so that boutiques and other clothing stores copied their styles. Their influence on pop culture was enormous as well, they had dolls, badges, and even chewing gum. If that's not enough to call them the most influential rock band ever, I don't know what else to tell you, lol.

[Drew]

I forgot to site my sources about The Beatles, here you go: http://www.augure-autourdejeanguillou...
http://www.santafe.com/blogs/read/the...
http://www.delta.ro/beatles/phist.html
http://johndanefferson.hubpages.com/h...
http://www.earcandymag.com/heavymetal...
http://fuckyeahbeatles.tumblr.com/pos...

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Travis wrote: "Now it's gonna get ugly.
god I can shrug off, but besmirching the Beatles?
It's clobbering time! "
Ugly? :)
I didn't and don't besmirch the Beatles, I quite like most..."
And they themselves cited the Beach Boys as influences, does that not mean we take it one step further back and credit the Beach Boys? Again, they are important, they were influential, but not "the most" influential band ever...I don't believe there is any one band that can claim that....

Drew wrote: "“Helter Skelter” and “I Want You (She’s So Heavy)” are considered two of the first heavy metal songs.
By some, but certainly not by all :)

Drew wrote: "They were unlike many artists of their day in that they wrote their own songs instead of having other songwriters do all the work for them."
Yes, but they were far from being unique in this...

Drew said: "They changed the science of recording"
The Beach Boys are generally considered more pioneering in that area than the Beatles...

Drew said: "They ignored all of the constraints and boundaries of pop music that were established"
I personally find that a bit of a stretch, they were still predominantly a song based band...they may have pushed boundaries, but they didn't ignore them.


Drew said: "one of the first rock bands to use a sitar"
One of the first, or the first? :) This is the main thrust of my position....they were not alone, or unique, in many of the things people claim they were. Yes, they used sitar and undoubtedly influenced others to do the same, but they weren't the only ones to use sitar at that time and weren't the only ones to influence others to do the same :)

At the risk of repeating myself, I'm not saying they weren't important or influential, clearly they were....but they were one of many bands of that era who were important and influential, and pointing that out doesn't diminish their achievements, but many Beatles zealots seem to need to construct a myth that they were alone in this :)

[Travis]

Drew wrote: "I forgot to site my sources about The Beatles, here you go: http://www.augure-autourdejeanguillou...
http://www.santafe.com..."

Forget sources, you hold him, I'll hit him till he sees reason.

[Drew]

Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Travis wrote: "Now it's gonna get ugly.
god I can shrug off, but besmirching the Beatles?
It's clobbering time! "
Ugly? :)
I didn't and don't besmirch the Beatles, I qu..."

You are welcomed to feel that way, but no other band has done all of those things combined and in most cases they were the first to do them.

[Drew]

Travis wrote: "Drew wrote: "I forgot to site my sources about The Beatles, here you go: http://www.augure-autourdejeanguillou...
http://ww..."

Maybe if it was cs but not Cerebus, lol.

[Drew]

Yeah, The Beach Boys gave influence to The Beatles but don't forget that The Beatles influenced The Beach Boys as well.

[cerebus]

Travis wrote: "Forget sources, you hold him, I'll hit him till he sees reason."
Gotta catch me first! You think I haven't learned to duck and hide with some of the opinions I hold!?! :D

[Drew]

Cerebus wrote: "Travis wrote: "Forget sources, you hold him, I'll hit him till he sees reason."
Gotta catch me first! You think I haven't learned to duck and hide with some of the opinions I hold!?! :D"

That's what tranquilizer guns are for. ;)

[Drew]

Travis wrote: "Drew wrote: "As requested by Travis
http://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html
http://www.whale.to/b/thule_society_h...
//www.ushistory.org/declaration/related...
http://parareligion.ch/
ht..."

You mean Star Wars was influenced by other ideas!;)

[Drew]

The Beatles also influenced punk rock, although in a negative way in that most punk bands strove to be less like The Beatles, lol.

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "That's what tranquilizer guns are for. ;) "
Pffft, been there, done that....I drink tranquilizer for breakfast!

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "Yeah, The Beach Boys gave influence to The Beatles but don't forget that The Beatles influenced The Beach Boys as well."
Absolutely, that's well documented....but also not the point :) The point is that the Beatles weren't isolated from their surroundings coming up with all these innovations alone or uninfluenced by other preceding or contemporary acts :)

[Drew]

Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "Yeah, The Beach Boys gave influence to The Beatles but don't forget that The Beatles influenced The Beach Boys as well."
Absolutely, that's well documented....but also not the point :)..."

I didn't say they came up with the innovations, I said they were the first to use them in recording, in most cases.

[Drew]

It's all good that you don't feel the same way about The Beatles Cerebus, to be honest, they are not my favorite band ever. They are up there high on my favorites list but they don't reign supreme for me.

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "I didn't say they came up with the innovations, I said they were the first to use them in recording, in most cases. "
Which surely means they weren't innovating? Who should be credited with the Graphical User Interface? Those who invented but didn't commercialise it, like Xerox PARC, or those who saw it, copied it and marketed it, like Apple and Microsoft? :) Do we celebrate innovation (and artistic merit), or marketing skills? :)

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "It's all good that you don't feel the same way about The Beatles Cerebus, to be honest, they are not my favorite band ever. They are up there high on my favorites list but they don't reign supreme for me. "
Just out of curiosity (and honestly, I won't start an argument over it :)), who is? I'm a big music fan, so I'm happy to discuss music till the cows come home....

[cHriS]

Drew wrote: "Travis wrote: "Drew wrote: "I forgot to site my sources about The Beatles, here you go: http://www.augure-autourdejeanguillou......"

I feel that I have reach a sort of celebrity status here, as I am being used as a comparison for others much like the Beatles are being used.

The Beatles are the ones that remain the number one group of all time. Like Elvis is the number one male singer. Not in every ones eyes but sort of by default. Like Elvis was king around the world, so we're the Beatles group wise, and close behind the Stones and maybe the Bee Gees, but the Beach Boys were not. They had hits in the Uk, for example, but were not In the same class as the Beatles, they did not have the super group status.

[Drew]

Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "It's all good that you don't feel the same way about The Beatles Cerebus, to be honest, they are not my favorite band ever. They are up there high on my favorites list but they don't r..."

That's a pretty tough question for me but I have every Creedence Clearwater Revival album put out so I would say they are my favorites. Nine Inch Nails would probably come in a close second.

[Drew]

cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "Travis wrote: "Drew wrote: "I forgot to site my sources about The Beatles, here you go: http://www.augure-autourdejeanguillou......"

I think I can hear the sound of your head swelling as we speak, lol.

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "It's all good that you don't feel the same way about The Beatles Cerebus, to be honest, they are not my favorite band ever. They are up there high on my favorites list ..."
I keep meaning to check out CCR, any recommendations for where to start? I like some NIN stuff, and I admire what he's done with the releasing stuff in a pay-what-you-want model....for industrial music though Ministry were always the guys for me!

[Drew]

Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "It's all good that you don't feel the same way about The Beatles Cerebus, to be honest, they are not my favorite band ever. They are up there high on my fa..."

Are you talking albums or songs when it comes to CCR?
I love me some Ministry too, Psalms 69, The Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste, and Filth Pig are my favorite albums of Ministry.

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "It's all good that you don't feel the same way about The Beatles Cerebus, to be honest, they are not my favorite band ever. They are up the..."
Albums :) I'm an album kinda guy....
The Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste is an awesome album, as is Psalm 69....wasn't quite so pushed on Filth Pig...

[cerebus]

Bill Nye is a legend.

"I say to the grownups, if you want to deny evolution and live in your world, that's completely inconsistent with the world we observe, that's fine. But don't make your kids do it. Because we need them. We need scientifically literate voters and taxpayers for the future. We need engineers that can build stuff and solve problems,"

[Drew]

Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "It's all good that you don't feel the same way about The Beatles Cerebus, to be honest, they are not my favorite band ever. Th..."

They are mostly all really great, if I had to choose I'd pick Green River but Cosmo's Factory is one that is always mentioned as their best effort. Mardi Gras is my least favorite. You really can't go wrong with their first six albums.

[Drew]

Cerebus wrote: "Bill Nye is a legend.

"I say to the grownups, if you want to deny evolution and live in your world, that's completely inconsistent with the world we observe, that's fine. But don't make your kids..."

Beautifully said.

[cerebus]

Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Drew wrote: "It's all good that you don't feel the same way about The Beatles Cerebus, to be honest, they are not my favori..."
Will check 'em out, cheers :)

[cerebus]

Wow....Sean Bean couldn't do it, aliens that looked like vajayjays couldn't do it....but the Beatles have killed this thread? Maybe they *are* the most influential band of all time after all!

[Jeannie]

Definitely in a world without religion. I have no problem with one's religion, but keep it in your homes and your churches. I don't see why it should involve me.

[Maria]

Jeannie wrote: "Definitely in a world without religion. I have no problem with one's religion, but keep it in your homes and your churches. I don't see why it should involve me."

AGREED!

[cHriS]

Maria wrote: "Jeannie wrote: "Definitely in a world without religion. I have no problem with one's religion, but keep it in your homes and your churches. I don't see why it should involve me."

AGREED!"

Nice to see that you agree, that it should not involve Jeannie from NY.

[Maria]

cs, anyone with sense would realize what I meant. I felt sorry for you for a while with everyone calling you a troll, but you know what? That's exactly what you are - why else would you have made the ridiculous comment you made? You obviously just want to start an argument, not contribute to the discussion.

As of right now, I am ignoring you and any posts you make here. They don't deserve my attention or my response. Bye, cs.

[cHriS]

Maria wrote: "cs, anyone with sense would realize what I meant. I felt sorry for you for a while with everyone calling you a troll, but you know what? That's exactly what you are - why else would you have made..."


It was a ridiculous 'anti religion' comment Jeannie made and if there were enough folks with my views here then Jeannine's remarks might be considered trolling, which you endorsed.

I gave a light hearted response to Jeannie's ignorant view.

I am able to live without your endorsement.

[Travis]

Drew wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Bill Nye is a legend.

"I say to the grownups, if you want to deny evolution and live in your world, that's completely inconsistent with the world we observe, that's fine. But don'..."

Nicely put by Bill, sad that in this day and age we have to convince actual adults that evolution is real.

[Travis]

Jeannie wrote: "Definitely in a world without religion. I have no problem with one's religion, but keep it in your homes and your churches. I don't see why it should involve me."

Very true.

[Travis]

Cerebus wrote: "Wow....Sean Bean couldn't do it, aliens that looked like vajayjays couldn't do it....but the Beatles have killed this thread? Maybe they *are* the most influential band of all time after all!"

and you doubted.

[Shanna]

I've got to ask cs, what was ignorant about Jeannie's "ignorant veiw"?
Her ultimate point was keep your religion to yourself, something Jesus said.

[Carolyn]

I agree that the balance is the important thing. There is a place in the world for both science and religion. But both need to have an eye on them to make sure they don't get out of hand. But actual people should be put first before anything.

[cHriS]

Shanna wrote: "I've got to ask cs, what was ignorant about Jeannie's "ignorant veiw"?
Her ultimate point was keep your religion to yourself, something Jesus said."

Her ultimate point was not to involve her. She did not say why she thought she was somehow unwillingly been involved, to justify the comment. Of course she may just be having a poke at religion.

I did'nt know Jesus said that. Of course it did not include the Catholics since they hadn't been invented then.

[Shanna]

Jeannie wrote: "Definitely in a world without religion. I have no problem with one's religion, but keep it in your homes and your churches. I don't see why it should involve me."

Her ultimate point wasn't that she shouldn't be involved in this forum or the question, or she was unwilling to comment.
It was a admonishment that an individuals religion shouldn't involve her and they should keep it private.

Matthew 6

6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
6:2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
6:4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
6:5 And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
6:6 But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.


It's in Matthew I think thats in all the major bibles thus applicable to all christians, shame it's not applied more liberally.

[Maria]

But in Matthew 28:19, 20 didn't he also say to "go therefore and make disciples"? And in Matthew 24:14 he said that the "good news would be preached to all the inhabited earth" - that's not keeping it to one's self.

I'm not saying I agree with this, just that I do believe that's what it says....

[Drew]

Maria wrote: "But in Matthew 28:19, 20 didn't he also say to "go therefore and make disciples"? And in Matthew 24:14 he said that the "good news would be preached to all the inhabited earth" - that's not keepin..."

Maria wrote: "But in Matthew 28:19, 20 didn't he also say to "go therefore and make disciples"? And in Matthew 24:14 he said that the "good news would be preached to all the inhabited earth" - that's not keepin..."

Ah, thank you, I can use that as another point when I say that the Bible contradicts itself all of the time.

[cHriS]

Shanna wrote: " m not saying I agree with this, just that I do believe that's what it says.... "

Her ultimate poin..."
But you do acknowledge Jesus, which is more than some do here.