Angels & Demons
discussion
Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion?
Jettcatt wrote: "Travis wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Do you think they will ever find the answers ? I guess I figure that the world is so complex that there is only so much that we can figure out about it , there may be ..."Nah, that can't be it.
Kid's got an odd shaped head.
I'm thinking alien DNA tampering is the more reasonable explanation.
Isabelle wrote: "Cerebus wrote: "Isabelle wrote: "I find society strange in the sense of the trends that we follow."Any particular ones in mind?"
How so many people seem to think Justin Bieber more talented than ..."
Not the biggest Michael fan, but feel a bit sad that my kids generation only know him as this whackjob who died from drugs, rather than the pop powerhouse he was in the 80's.
I gotta say I hate any creative person referring to what they do as 'my art'.
Especially, when it's just pop culture stuff.
I love a lot of pop culture, but what Madonna does is not art.
Paul Mccarthy, maybe, but if your not the Beatles, stop doing that.
Isabelle wrote: "I find society strange in the sense of the trends that we follow."Join the club.
Drew wrote: "There are secret societies that we do know existed and probably still exist to some degree today. To name a few you have: The Skull and Bones(Brotherhood of Death), The Scroll and Key, The Freemaso..."The thing with these is the 'history' of these groups have become so mixed with the hype and rumor, that I find them entertaining and interesting, but can't really 'believe' in them as solid forces in the world.
There are groups out there messing with the world, but they are common knowledge and we've seen recent attempts that were mostly incompetence than 'master plan' so it colors my view of the ones from the past.
Cerebus wrote: "Isabelle wrote: "Does anyone here believe that the Devil exists ?Whether it be the idea of the devil or its physical existence."
I'd say no, but Justin Bieber is really making me wonder....."
I always wondered about that...do christians believe in the devil as strongly as they do god?
cHriS wrote:"Shanna wrote: but do me the credit of allowing me my own speech"That is what I was doing, but you avoided the issue.
You said .....
Shanna wrote:I was being sarcastic to cHriS/cs for the ridiculous idea that gravity didn't exist prior to it's scientific explanation/naming...
...... but you had misinterpreted what I had said, and then when I pointed this out to you you replied
Shanna wrote:I misread nothing, take your smiley face and tattoo it where the sun don't shine.
So I suggested that if you did not misread my comment you must have deliberately chose to misinterpret what I said as you did, and you said.....
Shanna wrote:My mother used to say to me "Shanna, don't argue with stupid, it drags you down to their level and then beats you with experience"....
...and then
Again utter semantic bullshit
Ok, you misread my point about gravity, no big deal, but you had to make out that you were right, and to detract from the issue you gave the above replies. When I asked you again Hazel came to your defence.
As again, she has done above.
Shanna wrote:You get accused because you do it all the time, Don't like the acusation, stop it.
Again this is just you trying to deflect things away from the main issue of the 'gravity' thing which you commented on wrongly.
So you don't seem to be able to speak for yourself other than a few a few 'bullshits' dressed up in trivia.
Address the issue of the gravity thing if you think you are tough enough. Or carry on with the 'bullshitting' and give oz a bad name here.
I'm sorry to drag the discussion back a few pages, but real life has kept me away for a little while
OK cs the problem I had with your semantics is you were obsfucating the matter the implication that is was something other gravity that held "stuck" to the planet because gravity hadn't been scientifically quantified, or named as gravity is semantics. You were playing would a rose by any other name smell as sweet, it is semantics and bullshitting, I did not misread your comment.
And yes I understand you were try to illustrate the "invisible" presence of gravity to the invisible presence of god. There is no equivalency our naming or not naming something has no bearing on it's existence or non-existence, any more than faith, beliefs, wishes or anything else. Not being able to disprove the existence of something doesn't automatically mean it exists.
It's a shame you still can't apply calling people to answer a question, to yourself.
Cerebus wrote: "Isabelle wrote: "There's such thing called Sleep paralysis. It is this paranormal thing..."Sleep paralysis is anything but paranormal. It is a known scientifically described) phenomenon, but is fr..."
Right, it is something that can be explained naturally but some people get it confused with some sort of paranormal harassment.
Travis wrote: "Drew wrote: "There are secret societies that we do know existed and probably still exist to some degree today. To name a few you have: The Skull and Bones(Brotherhood of Death), The Scroll and Key,..."Yes, I agree that sometimes the stories don't match up to the truth. I do know that some of these societies still exist today, and I believe that they still use their power to control certain aspects of governments.
Shanna wrote: " Not being able to disprove the existence of something doesn't automaticalely mean it existsOf course not , that is my point. Or not exist. The best we have is that it could.
And if in five hundred years science finds evidence that god exists, that would indicate that god was around in 2012. Just as gravity was hundreds of years ago.
I understand how you may have misread the original post which caused you to be confused.
Drew wrote: "There are secret societies that we do know existed and probably still exist Travis wrote: I do know that some of these societies still exist today, and I believe that they still use their power to control certain aspects of governments.
They can't be very secret if you both know about them.
It might be best to inform the relevant governments.
cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "There are secret societies that we do know existed and probably still exist Travis wrote: I do know that some of these societies still exist today, and I believe that they still use ..."
You didn't read an earlier statement that I made to Travis, imagine that, you not paying attention.
They are secret in that not just anyone can join, you might have to be someone of power or influence or someone might have to vouch for you and then you go through an initiation or rite of passage. They are also called "secret" because they may have, wait for it, secrets that are not revealed to the public only members know these secrets and some secrets only certain members are allowed to know. Your statements were made in ignorance cs, just because they are known does not mean they are not a "secret society". Many government officials are members of these secret societies, so informing the government would do very little. Several presidents are members of the Skull and Bones, some past presidents were members of the Freemasons. Do your research and you would learn these FACTS for yourself.
Drew wrote: "cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "There are secret societies that we do know existed and probably still exist Travis wrote: I do know that some of these societies still exist today, and I believe that t..."
You have been reading to much Dan Brown. :)
PS: you would know what these secrets are, otherwise you could not possible know there was anything secret.
cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "There are secret societies that we do know existed and probably still exist Travis wrote: I do know that some of these societies still exist today, and I b..."
No, actually I don't care for Dan Brown.
Your PS is absurd, just go research them for themselves and stop wasting my time troll.
now now, drew, you've made a claim, don't pull the theist trick of telling others that they have the onus of proof.
Hazel wrote: "now now, drew, you've made a claim, don't pull the theist trick of telling others that they have the onus of proof."I'm not pulling a trick, the research is out there by the thousands. You know cs is just baiting me, trying to get me upset, it's been his tactic from the beginning and like we've said before, it's best to ignore and move on. If you need proof though Hazel, I will take the time, even though you are perfectly capable of doing this yourself, and I will give it to YOU. What do you want to know? Keep in mind, I plan on watching a football game very soon so I may not get back to you for awhile.
Drew wrote: "Hazel wrote: "now now, drew, you've made a claim, don't pull the theist trick of telling others that they have the onus of proof."I'm not pulling a trick, the research is out there by the thousan..."
I think hazel is just having a chuckle. It is a cute bit of irony.
Personally, if you are taking cs seriously, you might want to take a breath and do something else for awhile that's more worth the time and effort...like sorting your sock drawer, checking for loose change in the sofa cushions or checking out Sean Bean's webpage..
I know its out there, Drew, but if you make a claim, then the onus is on you to provide the evidence, not just pass the buck by telling others to go find out for themselves. Its the same idea when people make any claim, you make the claim, you provide the evidence.And I know that cs is baiting you, its always been his tactic, its one of his ways of distracting from his lack of evidence provision.
As for me, I'd be happy with a few links to places that you get this information from, to peruse in my own time :)
Now, I'm logging off, and going to join my friends in some zombie destruction :D
Hazel wrote: "I know tis outt here, Drew, but if you make a claim, then the onus is on you to provide the evidence, not just pass the buck by telling others to go find out for themselves. Its the same idea when ..."And yet cs never provides any evidence, are you really going to fight his battles Hazel?
Drew wrote: "And yet cs never provides any evidence, are you really going to fight his battles Hazel? "I'm not fighting his battles, but I kinda hope you would do what he refuses to, and back up your statements. Its not fighting his battles, its simply expecting more from you than I expect from him, he's pretty much not worth my effort any more.
Hazel wrote: "I know its out there, Drew, but if you make a claim, then the onus is on you to provide the evidence, not just pass the buck by telling others to go find out for themselves. Its the same idea when ..."'zombie destruction'.
Hazel lives in a tough neighborhood.
Hazel wrote: "Drew wrote: "And yet cs never provides any evidence, are you really going to fight his battles Hazel? "I'm not fighting his battles, but I kinda hope you would do what he refuses to, and back up ..."
I'm working on finding good non-biased material for you as we speak. My game starts at 4pm and it's 3:30 now. Give me until tomorrow evening and I will send you a message with those links, okay.
Here's something you might find interesting Hazel:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...
http://www.illuminatimembers.com/illu...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_...
http://hermetic.com/heidrick/oto_hist...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sons_of_...
Ok, time to get ready for my game, I will get back to this later.
Drew wrote: "Hazel wrote: "I know tis outt here, Drew, but if you make a claim, then the onus is on you to provide the evidence, not just pass the buck by telling others to go find out for themselves. Its the s..."Some years ago I knew a person who was a free mason. I had come up against a brick wall with a problem I could not resolve, (won't go into details now) and with one phone call by this person the Issue was resolved. It was later I found out he was a free mason. I know they exist and they are a closed society and membership is by invitation only. But they are not secret.
Hazel is my new best friend.
cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "Hazel wrote: "I know tis outt here, Drew, but if you make a claim, then the onus is on you to provide the evidence, not just pass the buck by telling others to go find out for themselv..."Yes, the freemasons are a fairly open society, I also had a similar situation with a friend who was a mason.
I won't be naive enough to think that they don't hold secrets though.
Okay, here's a little bit on secret societies:http://www.wanttoknow.info/051115secr...
http://bilderbergbook.com/index.php?o...
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/...
http://www.time.com/time/nation/artic...
http://www.armageddonconspiracy.co.uk...
http://www.illuminati-news.com/moriah...
http://gerberink.hubpages.com/hub/Sec...
Now cs, show me evidence of god's existence.
Hazel wrote: "Drew wrote: "And yet cs never provides any evidence, are you really going to fight his battles Hazel? "I'm not fighting his battles, but I kinda hope you would do what he refuses to, and back up ..."
All you're doing is giving him more ground to troll, nice job, at least you made a new best friend out of it!
Drew, I never claimed that god doesn't exist, I said that I reject the claim that god exists. As such, I don't have an onus of proof, the people who make the claim do.
Drew wrote: "Okay, here's a little bit on secret societies:http://www.wanttoknow.info/051115secr...
http://bilderbergbook.com/index.php?o...
http://www...."
Your first couple of links are not evidence.
One is a report of an accusation and the other is more or less advertising a book... by Daniel Estulin entitled "The True Story Of The Bilderberg Group.
Hazel wrote: "Drew, I never claimed that god doesn't exist, I said that I reject the claim that god exists. As such, I don't have an onus of proof, the people who make the claim do."Shit, sorry I thought I had deleted that question to you.
cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "Okay, here's a little bit on secret societies:http://www.wanttoknow.info/051115secr...
http://bilderbergbook.com/index.php?o......"
Clearly you don't understand what evidence is, it's not proof, it's something that gives an indication or sign that there is ground for belief.
Hazel wrote: "Drew, I never claimed that god doesn't exist, I said that I reject the claim that god exists. As such, I don't have an onus of proof, the people who make the claim do."So please tell me Hazel, exactly when did I make a claim that needed proof that I hadn't already given before you put your two cents in?
you made claims about these secret societies, and then shifted the burden of proof to others to find out what you claim to have already found out. I assumed it was because you were getting annoyed at cs, but either way, I feel we should hold ourselves to higher standards than he seems to hold himself to. Anyway, I haven't looked at your links yet, but as its now 1am, I will leave it till tomorrow. I have killed zombies, and now its time to sleep.
cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "Okay, here's a little bit on secret societies:http://www.wanttoknow.info/051115secr...
http://bilderbergbook.com/index.php?o......"
How is an accusation of fixing the fate of the world not evidence that there could be something amiss? That review had a lot of great information in it, are you going to send me the money to buy the book for you, clearly doing your own research is out of the question.
Hazel wrote: "you made claims about these secret societies, and then shifted the burden of proof to others to find out what you claim to have already found out. I assumed it was because you were getting annoyed ..."What claims? Going back and reading my statements, I see no claims that I didn't give evidence for before your first comment.
Drew wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Drew wrote: "And yet cs never provides any evidence, are you really going to fight his battles Hazel? "I'm not fighting his battles, but I kinda hope you would do what he refuses to..."
drew, cs is never going to answer a question, never going to 'play nice'.
What he is going to do is pounce on the fact that you get wound up easy.
you are better off walking away and talking to the reasonable adults on the thread. They won't all agree with you, but are at least here for the conversation.
Feel free to keep posting the links though. Interesting stuff.
Travis wrote: "Drew wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Drew wrote: "And yet cs never provides any evidence, are you really going to fight his battles Hazel? "I'm not fighting his battles, but I kinda hope you would do what ..."
Oh I tried to walk away but Hazel demanded evidence. Trust me Travis, I'm not getting wound up over cs, I'm just a bit put back by Hazel.
Drew wrote: "Hazel wrote: "you made claims about these secret societies, and then shifted the burden of proof to others to find out what you claim to have already found out. I assumed it was because you were ge..."to be frank, it was in reaction to you saying that others should go out and research it. And in my mind, no, they don't have to, they can if they want, but they don't have to, but if you have a reasonable point, then you should be able to provide citations to back it up. I have had a quickl look back over your posts over the last 2 pages, and though you talk about what you think, and what has been shown, you haven't provided citations for them, and thats what I meant when I said you should back up your claims. You've written what you think and what you've discovered, which may well be based on a lot of reading, I'm not contending that, I just wanted you to provide links and citations for where you got the information from, thus backing up what you were saying, and bolstering it, rather than putting it all, and then saying "just go away and research it". It takes seconds to find and post a link to a resource you've used, its just kinda polite, I think, to provide the link so people can read what you read in order to understand better what you're saying and to give weight to what you're saying.
I didn't want to wind you up, and sorry if I did. I just consider you a more reasonable person than cs, and as such, wanted you to provide the information you've read, reasonably safe in the knowledge that you'd actually provide it if asked. Sorry I was short in the way I interceded.
Hazel wrote: "Drew wrote: "Hazel wrote: "you made claims about these secret societies, and then shifted the burden of proof to others to find out what you claim to have already found out. I assumed it was becaus..."I still don't see where you are getting that from but oh well, I have to admit you threw me for a loop on this one. I mean many of these secret societies are common knowledge that can easily be obtained through books and the internet. I gave a source on the Vatican, freemason, mafia scandal. Was it the names of the secret societies, do I seriously have to cite that, most people will look that kind of thing up themselves. Why should I even care about this, cs is a troll, he doesn't deserve the same amount of respect I would give to you.
Drew wrote: "Travis wrote: "Drew wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Drew wrote: "And yet cs never provides any evidence, are you really going to fight his battles Hazel? "I'm not fighting his battles, but I kinda hope you..."
That's fine. You just come across as pretty serious in conversation and that's fine, but a waste of energy with cs.
Drew wrote: "cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "Okay, here's a little bit on secret societies:http://www.wanttoknow.info/051115secr...
http://bilderbergbook.com/index.php?o......"
I got no complaints
the links that take you to the stuff about UFOs is pretty cool.
As requested by Travishttp://www.crystalinks.com/thule.html
http://www.whale.to/b/thule_society_h...
//www.ushistory.org/declaration/related...
http://parareligion.ch/
http://www.thelemapedia.org/index.php...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermetic...
http://www.tshaonline.org/handbook/on...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassins
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%...
Here's one if you're a fan of Indiana Jones, remember the cult from Temple of Doom, betcha didn't know it was real. http://www.damninteresting.com/the-th...
Drew wrote: "cHriS wrote: "Drew wrote: "Okay, here's a little bit on secret societies:http://www.wanttoknow.info/051115secr...
http://bilderbergbook.com/index.php?o......"
Like the bible?
Travis wrote: "Drew wrote: "Hazel wrote: "Drew wrote: "And yet cs never provides any evidence, are you really going to fight his battles Hazel? "I'm not fighting his battles, but I kinda hope you would do what ..."
I did ask you and Drew what questions you wanted a reply to, as I thought I had answered most of them. You did not respond, but Drew did and he even asked one on your behalf. Maybe you missed that, but its a few pages back.
I can't choose between science or religion, because both in ways are as great and as bad as each other. Not all of us believe in any sort of religion, and in my opinion that is perfectly fine, its your own choose. But religion gives people a certain degree of hope, something to have faith in which I find beautiful and respect. Religion is also the vital part of marriage and the founder of redemption. However religion can taint us, taking away choices and free will almost as if its imprisoning us. With terrorist's they don't represent the whole of the whole of the religious world and therefore should not all be judged and treated like the same criminals, they may not have even had the choice.Whereas science, its discovered how we were created as a universe and its also exploring our own destruction. Science created medicine but also the weaponry that caused the greatest of destructions and death. Science leads to war, religion leads to war but they are both a vital part that makes our society work. Maybe somehow we will find a balance.
Travis wrote: "Paul Mccarthy, maybe, but if your not the Beatles, stop doing that."This is where another of my fairly singular views comes out.... :) McCartney took himself off the 'art' list when he released 'Mull of Kintyre' (and also when he makes himself available to play corporate gigs at the right price), and whilst obviously important and influential, I firmly believe the Beatles importance and influence is frequently overstated.
Jean wrote: "Kristal - Are you kidding? Do you really think that all people, if left to their own devices, would just be innocent and pure? That evil would just disappear because religion wouldn't be there to..."Whereas, we have religion and it's done a crackerjack job of keeping evil under control.
I wouldn't mind if science got a turn of 2,000 years.
cHriS wrote: "You have been reading to much Dan Brown. :)"Any Dan Brown is too much....
Cerebus wrote: "Travis wrote: "Paul Mccarthy, maybe, but if your not the Beatles, stop doing that."This is where another of my fairly singular views comes out.... :) McCartney took himself off the 'art' list when..."
Now it's gonna get ugly.
god I can shrug off, but besmirching the Beatles?
It's clobbering time!
cHriS wrote: "Your first couple of links are not evidence."It's still a more honest attempt to provide evidence than any you have made...
all discussions on this book
|
post a new topic
The Devil's Collection: A Cynic's Dictionary (other topics)
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (other topics)
God Hates You, Hate Him Back: Making Sense of the Bible (other topics)
The New Money System: When Your Money Fails (other topics)
More...
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Stephen King (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
More...
Books mentioned in this topic
Vector Calculus (other topics)The Devil's Collection: A Cynic's Dictionary (other topics)
Encyclopedia of Bible Difficulties (other topics)
God Hates You, Hate Him Back: Making Sense of the Bible (other topics)
The New Money System: When Your Money Fails (other topics)
More...
Authors mentioned in this topic
Ray Kurzweil (other topics)Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Stephen King (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
Wendy Joyce (other topics)
More...
I think Justin is famous because he was a normal canadian kid from a single parent home that was living on struggle street, who dared to think he could make it big and he did so in that sense he gives the other kids hope that they could make it too...(whether "making it" is a good thing is another arguement) See he is real and touchable so therefore easy to believe in