Would you rather live in a world without science...or in a world without religion? Showing 5,701-5,750 of 12,463

[Drew]

Please, enlighten me Blou, how exactly am I contradicting myself?

Shannon, you don't think they are ignorant because you also believe in an imaginary sky fairy.

[Blou4432]

Shannon wrote: "Vishal and Blou --

I don't think you're ignorant."

Thank you. It really is an East vs West point of view thing. He really is on point. The language breakdown can be a little rough going, but if you have ever read any of the Hindu holy books, he makes perfect sense for his beliefs.

[[deleted user]]

Drew wrote: "Please, enlighten me Blou, how exactly am I contradicting myself?

Shannon, you don't think they are ignorant because you also believe in an imaginary sky fairy."

And, despite that, Drew, I don't think you're ignorant, even though you don't believe as I do.

[[deleted user]]

Blou4432 wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Vishal and Blou --

I don't think you're ignorant."

Thank you. It really is an East vs West point of view thing. He really is on point. The language breakdown can be a little roug..."

From what little I know of Hindu philosophy, I was starting to pickup on that.

[Drew]

I'm saying he is ignorant and you and Shannon are ignorant because you won't allow yourselves to think with reason and logic. You let fear of the unknown rule you.

I have no belief system as far as a higher power goes so how could I possibly be contradicting myself?

[Blou4432]

Shannon wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Vishal and Blou --

I don't think you're ignorant."

Thank you. It really is an East vs West point of view thing. He really is on point. The language breakdown can..."

My ex husband is a very very dedicated Jew and I was so touched and mesmerized by the Bhagavad Gita that I called a man I usually want nothing to do with and recommended it. I would recommend it as a fantastic read, even if your beliefs don't align.

[Drew]

As I have stated, I have no belief system.

[Drew]

Shannon wrote: "Drew wrote: "Please, enlighten me Blou, how exactly am I contradicting myself?

Shannon, you don't think they are ignorant because you also believe in an imaginary sky fairy."

And, despite that, D..."

Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge), it isn't a term to get offended by. You just lack knowledge, that's all

[Blou4432]

Drew wrote: "I'm saying he is ignorant and you and Shannon are ignorant because you won't allow yourselves to think with reason and logic. You let fear of the unknown rule you.

I have no belief system as far ..."

Drew, I don't believe in traditional religion either, but I also don't believe that just because I believe something different, makes the other person wrong. I did think for myself. I grew up with Christianity thrown at me left and right. So, I picked up a copy of the most popular Hindu philosophy, along with the Book of the Dead, The Mormon Bible, The Tao Te Ching, Wiccan books, books by Lavey, along with several classic science books. I thought enough for and of myself to seek a truth that fit me. Just because my beliefs are not the same as yours doesn't make me ignorant. It makes me different than you. You have a right to believe what you want, but what right do you have to decide that others must believe it as well or they are ignorant?

[Blou4432]

Drew wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Drew wrote: "Please, enlighten me Blou, how exactly am I contradicting myself?

Shannon, you don't think they are ignorant because you also believe in an imaginary sky fairy."

And,..."
You say she lacks knowledge, yet freely admit you refuse to learn about what he believes. I find that interesting.

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "I'm saying he is ignorant and you and Shannon are ignorant because you won't allow yourselves to think with reason and logic. You let fear of the unknown rule you.

I have no belief s..."

Yes, actually I do have the right to think you are ignorant and when your rationality is ignorant I may feel the need to point that out.

[[deleted user]]

As an aside, ....

I can't help but take note of the fact that, instead of spending some time trying to understand another person and his culture and beliefs, even though we might not agree with said beliefs, and reflecting on the fact that it's just so damned easy to view everything from our very limited, and frankly, egocentric point of view, the word "ignorant" is thrown into the mix and all thoughts turn to that.

Now ... everyone will be thinking about the word "ignorant" and questioning who is ignorant and who isn't and, oh, I'm so glad I'm not ignorant, but, oh, those people who are ...!

I find myself wondering ....

Does the conversation get derailed here and in this particular way, over and over, by happenstance? Or, are there times when it's rather more comfortable to set people aside from ourselves and label them in a way that's condescending (and it is) in order not to attempt to understand another under the false, in my opinion, fear that it would somehow jeopardize our own truths?

[Drew]

Let me make this clear, to believe in a god or gods of any kind, no matter what religion it is, is illogical. I've studied enough religions to know that I just don't see the likelihood in any of them being true. I don't need to study every one because that would be insanity.

[Blou4432]

Drew wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "I'm saying he is ignorant and you and Shannon are ignorant because you won't allow yourselves to think with reason and logic. You let fear of the unknown rule you.

I..."

There is my point right there. I never said you didn't have a right to believe what you do. What I said was why do you get to decide that what someone else believes is wrong. You have every right to believe what you believe, just as the rest of us do. You keep throwing out that word. Ignorant. Lack of knowledge. Have you never picked up a book that didn't fall in with what you believe, just to find out why others do? You can call me ignorant all you want, but I'm not the one digging my heels in without taking the time to find out if maybe, just maybe, someone else has a valid point.

[Blou4432]

Drew wrote: "Let me make this clear, to believe in a god or gods of any kind, no matter what religion it is, is illogical. I've studied enough religions to know that I just don't see the likelihood in any of th..."
I have studied religion extensively as well. Just because I don't believe doesn't give me the right to say someone else's beliefs are wrong. That is the beauty of the human race. So many people, all with their own minds.

[Drew]

Shannon wrote: "As an aside, ....

I can't help but take note of the fact that, instead of spending some time trying to understand another person and his culture and beliefs, even though we might not agree with sa..."

I don't need to understand someone's beliefs if I know their is no chance of it being right, called me egocentric if you like, I can call you selfish for your beliefs, why you might ask (or maybe not), because the only reason people believe in their gods is for their own means (getting into heaven or whatever the end gift is for believing said religion)

[Blou4432]

Shannon wrote: "As an aside, ....

I can't help but take note of the fact that, instead of spending some time trying to understand another person and his culture and beliefs, even though we might not agree with sa..."
Well said.

[Blou4432]

Drew wrote: "Shannon wrote: "As an aside, ....

I can't help but take note of the fact that, instead of spending some time trying to understand another person and his culture and beliefs, even though we might n..."
Actually, many cultures don't believe in heaven. And Hinduism itself is more about who you are in the here and now. Balance within yourself. And how can you know for a fact that some of what they say isn't valid if you don't try to understand where they are coming from

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "I'm saying he is ignorant and you and Shannon are ignorant because you won't allow yourselves to think with reason and logic. You let fear of the unknown ..."

You are making it sound as if I'm not letting you believe whatever crazy thing you do. I would never do that, you most certainly have that right. I'm just debating and arguing. If I had the right to decide for you, you wouldn't believe the way you do, we would all know better and be able to live in more harmony. Still you use this word belief in describing my thoughts, understand something, I have disbelief which is completely different than belief.

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Let me make this clear, to believe in a god or gods of any kind, no matter what religion it is, is illogical. I've studied enough religions to know that I just don't see the likelihood..."

Yes I can say someone's beliefs are wrong if I know them to be so. If someone told you that God said you should kill your kids, assuming you have any, would you believe them or would you think they are wrong?

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Shannon wrote: "As an aside, ....

I can't help but take note of the fact that, instead of spending some time trying to understand another person and his culture and beliefs, even thou..."

I know they don't all believe in heaven, that was purely an example.

[Blou4432]

You don't believe in having a belief. You deny all religion and other beliefs, which is a belief. You believe in nothing. I get it. But you do believe very strongly in your nothing, which makes it a belief. You believe there is no God, higher power, Jesus, Krishna, or any other religious heads. That is a belief for you.

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Shannon wrote: "As an aside, ....

I can't help but take note of the fact that, instead of spending some time trying to understand another person and his culture and beliefs, even thou..."

Do they believe in a god of some kind, are their certain restrictions they must abide by to consider themselves Hindu?

[Drew]

Listen, there are plenty of valid principles from all religions. Don't kill, don't steal, treat each other with a certain amount of respect, etc, but don't think for a second that you can't have those same morals if you don't have a belief in a god.

[[deleted user]]

Drew wrote: "Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge), it isn't a term to get offended by. You just lack knowledge, that's all "

Two things, Drew, and I mean them sincerely.

First, the word "ignorant" has a negative connotations, as I've mentioned at least twice in the past. If you've not read those posts, you can look up the word and read some of the synonyms listed, synonyms that go, in part, toward how a culture might view the word ... in order to give greater context. They're, many of them, extremely judgmental and condescending.

Second, out of all of the things you could say ... of all the points you could make ... of all the things you could choose to make as your stand, why is this it for you? Why is it so vital for you to come out and say Vishal is destroying this thread, that he's ignorant, that Blou is ignorant, and, now, that I'm ignorant? I'm wondering why, when you could say so many things, that is so totally and completely necessary for you to make those kinds of statements ... to make that statement?



(As another aside .... I don't think atheism is a belief or belief system. Having said that, people might hold beliefs that have nothing to do with a belief system. Some might think your insistence on viewing Hindus via knowledge of Christianity and, I think, only knowledge of Christianity, and your view that you need not learn about Hindu philosophy in order to better understand a fellow human being, especially given what might come across, in print, at least, as intensely emotional, might be a belief. After all, you seem to be saying you don't need to learn anything about Vishal or Hindu philosophy; you know all you need to know. You know he's ignorant and that's that. That, in an of itself, could be seen as a belief. It's not based on knowledge of Vishal, his country, his culture, or his philosophies. It's based on your personal experiences, what you know of Christianity and Christians, and your view that there are no gods, but it's not, in any way, based on any knowledge of the person you're chiding. That, when coupled with the fact that Vishal is actually making more sense, within his philosophy, than anyone is giving him credit for, could lead one to think you're acting on beliefs you hold versus knowledge. And, I'm not going to forget that, just yesterday, people were giving Vishal a hard time for "not making sense" and "clogging" the conversation with things that weren't on point ... not for discussing Hindu philosophy. The problem was one of East and West, yet, instead of taking a step back and exploring that, .... That smacks of beliefs ... not logic ... to me.)

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "You don't believe in having a belief. You deny all religion and other beliefs, which is a belief. You believe in nothing. I get it. But you do believe very strongly in your nothing, which makes it ..."

This assumption is rooted in the elementary logical fallacy that two opposite things--belief and disbelief--are actually the same thing. A basic tenet of logic is that anyone making a positive claim bears the burden of proof for that claim. For example, in a court of law the lawyers for the prosecution bear the burden of proof, because they are making the positive claim that the defendant has committed a crime.

To take a skeptical position regarding an extraordinary claim for which one has not been provided with compelling evidence is not an act of faith; it is simple common sense. Here is an analogous situation: supposedly, as a Christian, you do not believe in the Roman or Aztec gods. Is it just as much an "act of faith" on your part not to believe in those gods as it was for the Romans and Aztecs to believe in them? If a man walks up to you and says he has an invisible magic elf sitting on his head, do you automatically believe his claim? If not, is it an "act of faith" on your part not to? Or are you simply responding to the claim with common sense and skepticism because the man has failed to provide you with adequate evidence for his elf? Choosing not to believe in something when you have no reason to believe in that thing is not an act of faith, it is just the smart thing to do.

Finally, one can turn to the Bible's definition of faith--the "substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen"--to see that this is a definition that excludes disbelief.

[Blou4432]

Drew wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Shannon wrote: "As an aside, ....

I can't help but take note of the fact that, instead of spending some time trying to understand another person and his culture and b..."
Hinduism is traditionally started with a pantheon, though most of those beliefs died out. The predominate belief now, as far as i am aware, stems from two texts, one of them The Bhagavad Gita. The poem (yes it is written in prose) details the speech that Krishna gave on the day of battle. Krishna is not a god. He was a man. Some Hindu's believe he was touched by the divine, but that varies. The gist of the Gita is the balance between the different parts of yourself. It isn't restrictions. It's about choices. It's about how to balance yourself in this world to achieve harmony within yourself. It's about bettering yourself. It's not about how to achieve riches or heaven but how to achieve peace within yourself.

[[deleted user]]

Drew wrote: "check your Bibles"

If we're Christian and have Bibles ....

You know, separate and apart from philosophy and religion, India has over a billion people. Might it not be wise to understand, for that reason alone, more of the culture and beliefs of the people? Might that not lead to more productive and peaceful exchanges, not just on GR, but in business, politics, etc...? I don't, personally, view that as insanity; I see it as quite the opposite.

[Drew]

Shannon wrote: "Drew wrote: "Ignorance is a state of being uninformed (lack of knowledge), it isn't a term to get offended by. You just lack knowledge, that's all "

Two things, Drew, and I mean them sincerely.
..."

It has negative connotations because many people do not know what ignorance actually means, which is of itself ignorance. If you get offended by that word, that's your own fault for not understanding what it means and you prove my point of you being ignorant.

Second point, who said it was "vital" for me to say Vishnal is destroying the thread or that you or Blou is ignorant, my life doesn't depend on it, I'm simply debating. I was simply joking when I said that about Vishnal, his words were semi-incoherent because of the language barrier and the fact that much of what he typed ran together and was difficult to read.

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Shannon wrote: "As an aside, ....

I can't help but take note of the fact that, instead of spending some time trying to understand another person and his ..."

But behind all of the balancing of parts is still the belief in many gods and the belief in Krishna (possibly their version of Christ?) and that he was touched by the divine which still makes it illogical. The idea of having balance within and without is just a principle, the main principle if I'm understanding correctly and like I mentioned earlier, having good principles fantastic. I also have good principles. It's the belief in a higher power that I have issues with.

[Blou4432]

Drew wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "You don't believe in having a belief. You deny all religion and other beliefs, which is a belief. You believe in nothing. I get it. But you do believe very strongly in your nothing..."

Drew wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "You don't believe in having a belief. You deny all religion and other beliefs, which is a belief. You believe in nothing. I get it. But you do believe very strongly in your nothing..."

Drew wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "You don't believe in having a belief. You deny all religion and other beliefs, which is a belief. You believe in nothing. I get it. But you do believe very strongly in your nothi
Do I have to disagree with him? Can't I just tell him I believe he believes the elf is there? Why must I automatically disregard somebodies beliefs, just because I don't believe in them? If he believes in that elf, and it doesn't hurt me to explain I don't believe in it myself, but i believe in him to choose his own path, what is wrong with that? Doesn't he have a right to his own beliefs? As far as burden of proof, you are so sure there is no higher power. Can you prove it without a doubt? Can you produce proof beyond a shadow of a doubt?

[Drew]

Shannon wrote: "Drew wrote: "check your Bibles"

If we're Christian and have Bibles ....

You know, separate and apart from philosophy and religion, India has over a billion people. Might it not be wise to unders..."

Understanding their beliefs and having productive and peaceful exchanges do not go hand in hand. You can be peaceable with other nations and still not except their religious beliefs. Where do you get these ideas from?

[Blou4432]

Shannon wrote: "Drew wrote: "check your Bibles"

If we're Christian and have Bibles ....

You know, separate and apart from philosophy and religion, India has over a billion people. Might it not be wise to unders..."
I have several bibles. What version would you like me to check and exactly what am I checking for? For someone who believes in nothing. Excuse me, has no belief system, that is an odd comment.

[Drew]

Guys, this has been a fantastic conversation but alas, I do have to get some sleep. I know I've offended some but really, it's just a debate, I do apologize though. I'll be back tomorrow to hand you your asses ;)

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Drew wrote: "check your Bibles"

If we're Christian and have Bibles ....

You know, separate and apart from philosophy and religion, India has over a billion people. Might it not b..."

I'll try to get back to you on this tomorrow.

[Blou4432]

Drew wrote: "Guys, this has been a fantastic conversation but alas, I do have to get some sleep. I know I've offended some but really, it's just a debate, I do apologize though."
I am not easily offended. You have a right to your beliefs. My point was that, so do others. They also have the right to express them without criticism. Especially when they already struggle to express them. Not once did I tell you that you were wrong for YOUR beliefs. We are a diverse world. Vishnal expressed his beliefs beautifully, but because most people don't understand what he believes he was treated less than kindly. You speak of morals and morality. I'm pretty sure being respectful and kind to everyone, agreeing or not is a pretty big one.

[[deleted user]]

Drew wrote: "It has negative connotations because many people do not know what ignorance actually means, which is of itself ignorance. If you get offended by that word, that's your own fault for not understanding what it means and you prove my point of you being ignorant.

Second point, who said it was "vital" for me to say Vishnal is destroying the thread or that you or Blou is ignorant, my life doesn't depend on it, I'm simply debating. I was simply joking when I said that about Vishnal, his words were semi-incoherent because of the language barrier and the fact that much of what he typed ran together and was difficult to read. "

So ....

Does it all come down to those other people who lack understanding then? Those other people who don't know what the word "ignorant" really means? Those other people who don't understand that you're simply debating? Those other people who don't know when you're joking?

Really ...?

And, what does this mean, simply debating ...? If one is "simply debating" does that mean he or she, what ...? Doesn't mean what he or she says? I'm a bit lost on that point.

Regarding my use of the word "vital" with regard to your stance ....

It's rare that you take part in the conversation here, Drew. In the past, when you have, you often make a statement or two and "leave" again. Please don't take that to mean that I think you should talk more. Talk or don't talk. But, given this, when you do post, your posts stick out. Think Charlie Brown ... and the teacher who is always talking and it becomes an issue of "Wah, wah, wah, wah, wah." I "talk" more often here and that can be read as "wah, wah, wah." Given the fact that you don't, when you do, your words stand out, in my opinion.

You've been doggedly working this for a full day, which, if memory serves, is unusual given your past history here. Another definition of the word "vital" involves absolute importance, yes, not just dealing with life and death. It seems to me that it was very, very important to you, over the past 24 hours, to ... tell Vishal that he's destroying the thread, that you couldn't tell him to stop spewing but you wished he would, telling him he was ignorant, and, now, telling Blou and telling me that we're ignorant ... while stating you need not learn anything of Vishal or his philosophy, in fact, to learn of other religions would be insanity .... which, given how many people hold religious views and believe in certain philosophies, which actually, in many cases, impact speech and daily life, and given the fact that everything is so global today versus insular, it might be wise and "vital" to do so.

[Blou4432]

Shannon wrote: "Drew wrote: "It has negative connotations because many people do not know what ignorance actually means, which is of itself ignorance. If you get offended by that word, that's your own fault for no..."
i think i love you...lol

[[deleted user]]

Blou4432 wrote: "what he believes he was treated less than kindly. You speak of morals and morality. I'm pretty sure being respectful and kind to everyone, agreeing or not is a pretty big one. "

You hit that nail directly on the head. So true ... x5,000. The question? Will anyone admit it and will it change future exchanges?

Will anyone give this some honest reflection? Or, will people focus on your use of the word "belief" and challenge you on that point and leave it at that?

We'll see ....

[Blou4432]

Shannon wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "what he believes he was treated less than kindly. You speak of morals and morality. I'm pretty sure being respectful and kind to everyone, agreeing or not is a pretty big one. "

Y..."
yes we will, but any religion they want to try to throw at me i am ready for...i have an autistic kid...he is VERY logical and a very heavy science believer, so i had no choice but to learn most of the worlds religions...in case questions came up...always better to be prepared

[Blou4432]

Shannon wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "what he believes he was treated less than kindly. You speak of morals and morality. I'm pretty sure being respectful and kind to everyone, agreeing or not is a pretty big one. "

Y..."
I dare anyone who thinks Vishnal wasn't making sense to read the Gita and then come back and say he wasn't on point.

[Hazel]

Vishal was talking about the teachings of OSHO, not the Gita... which suggests to me that either you didn't read what Vishal was saying, or you haven't read the Gita... which is it?

[[deleted user]]

Hazel wrote: "Vishal was talking about the teachings of OSHO, not the Gita... which suggests to me that either you didn't read what Vishal was saying, or you haven't read the Gita... which is it?"

Ah, Hazel ....

I've not read OSHO or the Gita. I know you're responding to Blou, but I wanted to mention something. What little (and I realize that) I've been reading about Hinduism echoes some of what Vishal was saying. Yes, I know he said he follows OSHO, but I'm telling you some of, maybe even a lot of, what he was saying was in line with some of the things I've read about Hindu philosophy. Truly.

Just because he said he was into OSHO, doesn't mean, growing up in India, that he didn't ... learn and take in Hindu philosophy ... doesn't mean he didn't also read the Gita or doesn't mean he wasn't influenced by people who did.

The answer isn't, necessarily, that Blou didn't read what Vishal was saying or hasn't read the Gita. Seriously ....

True, not all of what he said harkened to what I've read of Hindu philosophy ... Hello, OSHO! or Hello, Shannon's limited knowledge of Hindu philosophy! But, some of it really and truly did ... some of what he was saying and the way he was, I don't know, acting, most especially in the end, was totally in keeping with the basic things that I've read.

[Xdyj]

Drew wrote: "Let me make this clear, to believe in a god or gods of any kind, no matter what religion it is, is illogical. I've studied enough religions to know that I just don't see the likelihood in any of th..."

But humans are illogical IMHO.

[Travis]

Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Guys, this has been a fantastic conversation but alas, I do have to get some sleep. I know I've offended some but really, it's just a debate, I do apologize though."
I am not easily of..."

This is a point that people keep making that I don't get. Why do people think that they have a right to express their beliefs without criticism?
You have a right to your beliefs and that's it.
Why do people think having a belief gives them a free 'respect' card?

People can choose how they react to your beliefs, but there are no rights involved there.
Jedi is a declared religion, but I can bet cash money that they are not getting the respect that the christians get.

While I will admit, Drew is being less than tactful, I can't argue his point concerning ignorance. Religion was born out of man wanting to find answers. Most of those answers are out there, so to cling to religion, can be seen as a form of ignorance, denial or just not somebody I'd want to vote for.

We are so conditioned to religion having the magic respect shield, that somebody being as blunt as Drew is seen as radical.
It's not. It's no more radical than telling a child there is no Easter Bunny.

Heck, I have to respect Drew though. He invented the meat tree.

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Guys, this has been a fantastic conversation but alas, I do have to get some sleep. I know I've offended some but really, it's just a debate, I do apologize though."
I am not easily of..."

I never said that it was wrong to believe in something, just that the belief systems of religious people were wrong. I do have that right to say that even if you don't like hearing it. You also have the right to say that my thoughts are wrong but not that I'm wrong for thinking them.

[Drew]

Xdyj wrote: "Drew wrote: "Let me make this clear, to believe in a god or gods of any kind, no matter what religion it is, is illogical. I've studied enough religions to know that I just don't see the likelihood..."

Ding, ding, ding, you are correct, and we are all ignorant in some way, shape, or form. I can freely admit that I am ignorant of many things, I can also admit that I don't always go about things logically. We're talking about human nature now. Getting offended over those two words is ludicrous.

[Drew]

Travis wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "Drew wrote: "Guys, this has been a fantastic conversation but alas, I do have to get some sleep. I know I've offended some but really, it's just a debate, I do apologize though."
I..."

I don't feel the need to be considerate or tactful when arguing these points, religious people frequently do not apply these traits either when debating, or should I say preaching, their points. Respect is something earned.

[Drew]

Blou4432 wrote: "Shannon wrote: "Blou4432 wrote: "what he believes he was treated less than kindly. You speak of morals and morality. I'm pretty sure being respectful and kind to everyone, agreeing or not is a pret..."

He may have been making sense in regards to what he believes but that doesn't mean that his beliefs make sense. Hey, I'm not oblivious to the fact that it sounds beautiful, I'm just not going to kid myself that it could actually be true.

[Drew]

Shannon wrote: "Drew wrote: "It has negative connotations because many people do not know what ignorance actually means, which is of itself ignorance. If you get offended by that word, that's your own fault for no..."

Please clarify what you are asking in those first couple of sentences.

When I say that I am simply debating I'm saying that I am just voicing my opinions, I figured that would be pretty clear but I guess not.

At the beginning of this thread, I voiced my opinions regularly but I leave town on business quite a bit and don't always have time to chat. I don't own a laptop and the library is so inconvenient, so I don't bother with it. Maybe what I say does stand out, that's fine with me, it means I get the chance to put in my two cents and people are going to pay attention. That really isn't important to me but at the same time it makes me feel like I'm not just wasting my time here.

It was absolutely not vital or important to me to prove that Vishnal was destroying the thread, I made one comment about it and you guys ran with it, so I obliged you.

One of the definitions of insanity is senselessness, I think it is senseless to spend time studying a religion that is going to be inherently flawed. I think all religion is flawed, why on Earth would I waste time learning about everyone of them.

Listen, some of the ideas religions have can be very beautiful to think about but that doesn't make it true. It is fantasy.