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Custer's Trials: A Life on the Frontier of a New America
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BOOK OF THE MONTH > ARCHIVE - MAY 2017 (May 8th through June 4th) - CUSTER'S TRIALS - DISCUSSION THREAD

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message 51: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Welcome Leo - glad to have you back after last month's Black Flags discussion.

It is interesting how in different times - different actions were viewed. The Native Americans have not had an easy time of it.

Additionally, the settlers and their protectors faced many distasteful situations and events as Custer was involved in at Little Big Horn. The Native Americans were preserving their land and their people in their own way - just as the Union soldiers were told to protect theirs. To this day Native Americans are still wrestling with their past conflicts and the remedies do not seem to be able to erase injustice.

We hope to get to know Custer better than just his last battle which appears to be Stiles objective.

Black Flags The Rise of ISIS by Joby Warrick by Joby Warrick Joby Warrick


message 52: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 08:40AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Thank you for the spoiler html Leo. For your first Stiles book - I hope this will be a good one for you.

Just some housekeeping - we do not have to cite the book and the author we are discussing. That would be onerous if we had to so we don't. But other books and other authors we do. Just place those at the bottom of your comment box and that usually takes care of it.

Tolstoy is mentioned in the book so therefore he is off the hook but one of his books is not. However Fathers and Sons is not one of his.
I cited some of his books below.

Fathers and Sons by Ivan Turgenev by Ivan Turgenev Ivan Turgenev

War and Peace by Leo Tolstoy Anna Karenina by Leo Tolstoy The Cossacks A Tale Of The Caucasus In 1852 by Leo Tolstoy Twenty-Three Tales by Leo Tolstoy Resurrection by Leo Tolstoy Tolstoy's Writings on Civil Disobedience by Leo Tolstoy all by Leo Tolstoy Leo Tolstoy

Custer Myth by W.A. Graham by W.A. Graham (no photo)

I could not find the Masterton one.

Update: Thank you Leo for adding some of the ancillary book citations - I just noticed that.


message 53: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 08:18AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Chapter One:

At the beginning of Part One - Rise (1839 - 1865) - Stiles posts a number of quotes.

a) I am as full of mischief as ever.
- George Armstrong Custer, November 13, 1858

b) Custer - the light-hearted and gallant fellow, I cannot mention his name without swimming eyes! - Morris Schaff, The Spirit of Old West Point

c) The great difficulty is that he is too clever for his own good. - Tully McCrea, January 19th, 1861

d) I saw him plunge his saber into the belly of a rebel who was trying to kill him. You can guess how bravely soldiers fight for such a general. - Victor Comte, July 16th 1863

e) Generalship is bad for people. - John Keegan, The Mask of Command

Discussion Topics:

1. Discuss any of these quotes or your favorite and indicate what the quote tells us about the man (Custer) and/or why you think the quote appealed to the author? How does it relate to either Custer, the book or the general themes of the book?

Books noted:

(no image) The Spirit of Old West Point, 1858-1862 by Morris Schaff (no photo)

The Mask of Command by John Keegan by John Keegan John Keegan


message 54: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 08:26AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Chapter One:

The Accused:


George Armstrong Custer, shown in an 1859 photograph as a 19-year-old West Point cadet in his summer furlough uniform, and in a later undated photo - Oregonian/OregonLive file photos)

We begin: "George Armstrong Custer's guilt was never in doubt. The question was how harshly he should be condemned for being Custer."

Discussion Topics:

1. What do you think Stiles meant literally by these words at the opening of Chapter One? And what did he imply figuratively?

2. Do you think that this one sentence might be an omen of things to come for Custer or how Stiles might view the protagonist "collectively"? Why or why not?


message 55: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Thank you Leo for the updates.


message 56: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 09:06AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Chapter One:


Only surviving section of living quarters that was used by the class of 1861 and Custer - Tower at Nininger Hall - West Point

Discussion Topics:

1. Are any of you familiar with West Point's protocol for handling court martials of young cadets and how different or the same are the court martials now from the one faced by a young Custer at the time (1861)?

2. Do you think that the fact that the Civil War was upon us at the time of Custer's court martial made it easier or harder for him?

3. What do you think the climate was at West Point knowing that a federal army now faced a rebel army in northern Virginia?


message 57: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 09:15AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
What are your thoughts on this quote - page 5:

"Custer had often been punished before, but it seems he never grasped the reason. Military justice serves a larger purpose than merely balancing the scales of justice. It must teach soldiers to follow orders and abide by regulations, in order to create a force that responds to commands predictably and efficiently. Discipline is the very point of the institution, the difference between an army and a mob. But Custer never admitted the necessity of his own prosecution."


Custer (at far right) seen here with other generals and President Lincoln at Antietam.


message 58: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 10:02AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Chapter One:

Questions:

1. What were the motivations for a boy like Custer to go to West Point in the first place?

2. Stiles mentions that a son of an affluent parent would not have chosen West Point over Harvard at that point in time. Although one of Vanderbilt's sons did. What are your thoughts on the author's assertion?

3. Did it astonish you that only 1 per cent of working men graduated from any kind of college in 1861? Why or why not? If you had lived during that time - what might you have ended up doing and why?

4. What did this quote reveal about Custer - "He never forgot the world outside of West Point. He worried, rather, that it would forget him. Those who loved Armstrong knew that he loved them fiercely - and that his affection had an underside of defensiveness, resentment and fear of neglect."

5. Gonorrhea - did that diagnosis surprise any of you when reading
it?

6. How did Custer's fathers politics influence the young Custer?


Custer's father Emmanuel


Custer's parents


message 59: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 10:37AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Please feel free to post any and all responses to the questions posed regarding the Preface and Chapter One. Additionally any questions or comments or quotes from this week's reading assignment up through 107 can be readily discussed on this thread.

If there are other topics not yet discussed that you would like to discuss right away from the assigned reading - please feel free to do that also.

Tomorrow I will discuss in depth - Chapter Two.

PS: If you go ahead of the assigned reading - spoiler html must be used. And/or post in the glossary thread which is a spoiler thread where I post a great deal of ancillary and important supporting information about the book, events, people and time period.


message 60: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 11:05AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Chapter Two - Deep Dive:


The Astor House in 1862, with St. Paul's Chapel to the left

For those of you familiar with the downtown Wall Street area - this photo provides some distinguishing iconic landmarks:


From left to right: St. Paul's Chapel, Astor House, U.S. Post Office, c.1905

The Observer

The chapter begins, "He went to war alone. He did not board a steamboat full of new graduates from West Point. He did not ride off at the head of a regiment, or even trail behind one. George Armstrong Custer set out for Washington by himself."

Discussion Topics:

1. How did Custer's deportment contribute to the situation he found himself in on July 18th, 1861? How would that make a young cadet feel in any situation - but how did that set Custer apart from most of his classmates for most of the next two years? How did Custer become a soldier apart from his unit, an officer with none to command? In what mood did Custer find New York upon his arrival on the way to his posting? Why the change?

2. The Civil War changed many of the industrial cities that manufactured the raw cotton or dealt in the cotton trade. How was New York City no different? Were you surprised at the proposal of Mayor Fernando Wood?

More:
Regarding the Astor House Hotel:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Astor_H...


message 61: by Debye (new) - added it

Debye | 36 comments Greetings everyone,

I'm Debye from San Antonio (CTZ). I look forward to catching up and the discussion!


message 62: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Debye welcome - nobody is ever too late here - catching up is what we all do and the threads are always open. Glad to have you all the way from San Antonio and the great state of Texas.


happy (happyone) | 76 comments Bentley wrote: "Chapter One:

Only surviving section of living quarters that was used by the class of 1861 and Custer - Tower at Nininger Hall - West Point

Discussion Topics:

1. Are any of you familiar with West..."


I believe cadets are subject to the UCMJ - which makes a courts martial (CM)a much more serious event - its a career killer. Back then CMs were used for EVERYTHING so it wasn't such a serious stain on ones career

2 Much, much easier - the Army needed officers and they needed them now.

3. there was much sadness - the cadets and staff knew many would be going south and that they might be seeing each other across the battle lines.


message 64: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
It must have been a very sad time for those West Point cadets who graduated with Custer. And a majority of them were on different sides of the fight too and they had been such close friends and still were. How do you fight your best friend in that situation?

So what you are saying is that CMs back then were like being sent to the principals office one to many times versus what they would face today.

I was curious about that and hope to hear from others about the procedures then and now.


message 65: by happy (last edited May 09, 2017 03:54PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

happy (happyone) | 76 comments More like it was used for every infraction, while today there are many different levels of discipline (article 15, Letters of reprimand etc) CM's are only used for serious breaches of discipline and criminal behavior

It wasn't unusual for officer in the Indian Fighting Army to have 2 or 3 CMs on their record (view spoiler)


message 66: by Tim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Tim | 9 comments Bentley, thanks for the lesson on using citations. I had forgotten about using the photos of the book cover and author when citing other works.

You are correct. I am in Arizona now but I've lived in several locations within the states, mostly in the West. I, too, have visited the LBH battleground monument and surrounding area. It is, as another has said, in a rather isolated area. We were late arriving at dusk and the feeling of what transpired there was absolutely palpable for me. Very eerie but peaceful as well. There were no sounds except for the occasional grassland bird. I found myself thinking about what it must have been like when all hell was breaking loose during that battle.

I must say that I'm impressed with the volume of background material that you provide to these discussions. Certainly the questions are appreciated but it's the references, photos, and other material that really stand out for me and add to what we're reading. Thanks for what you do although I don't know how you do it so thoroughly in short order.


message 67: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
happy wrote: "More like it was used for every infraction, while today there are many different levels of discipline (article 15, Letters of reprimand etc) CM's are only used for serious breaches of discipline an..."

Very interesting happy


message 68: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Tim wrote: "Bentley, thanks for the lesson on using citations. I had forgotten about using the photos of the book cover and author when citing other works.

You are correct. I am in Arizona now but I've lived ..."


Tim we are glad to have you join us - make sure you post, post, post and bring your perspective. It is a learning experience for everyone so I enjoy it. The questions stimulate discussion and I always suggest you reflect and try to answer them from your own frame of reference and then folks jump in and interact with you which is a lot of fun.

I have not been to Little Big Horn but I imagine it must be very powerful when you are standing there and realize what transpired. During that battle it must have been anything but peaceful - sad really - that loss of life in such a beautiful tranquil place - it almost seems like an anachronism as if one does not belong with the other.

It is great to dig out the research material and feel and know what the author knew and felt when he was doing the research and writing the book. You get to know the events and the personages up close and the extra details add so much to the reading.

You are very welcome and we are glad to have you with us.


message 69: by happy (last edited May 09, 2017 07:55PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

happy (happyone) | 76 comments Tim wrote: "Bentley, thanks for the lesson on using citations. I had forgotten about using the photos of the book cover and author when citing other works.

You are correct. I am in Arizona now but I've lived ..."


when I was there, one of the Rangers said he would often go up to Last Stand Hill at night where the monument stands and "listen to the Ghosts". He said sometimes he could almost see them. Very powerful moment.

When I was in the Army, I was stationed near Ft. Donelson, N(Grant's first major victory). I would go out there after the duty day and the Visitors Center had closed and just sit an "listen to the Ghosts". I swear sometimes I could feel them around me.


message 70: by happy (last edited May 09, 2017 07:44PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

happy (happyone) | 76 comments Bentley wrote: "Chapter One:

Questions:..


1. What were the motivations for a boy like Custer to go to West Point in the first place?
A chance a free education he probably couldn't have gotten elsewhere, to get away from the watchful eyes of his parents, chance for a bit of glory and to wear a fancy uniform.

2. Stiles mentions that a son of an affluent parent would not have chosen West Point over Harvard at that point in time. Although one of Vanderbilt's sons did. What are your thoughts on the author's assertion?
It's probably true, even today the wealthy are very underrepresented in the military. IRRC, Mr. Vanderbilt wasn't terribly excited with his son's decision. One other anecdote that illustrates the point, Teddy Roosevelt's son TR Jr wanted to go to West Point and TR did everything in his power to discourage him and ultimately prevailed -TR Jr went to Harvard like his Dad.

3. Did it astonish you that only 1 per cent of working men graduated from any kind of college in 1861? Why or why not? If you had lived during that time - what might you have ended up doing and why?
No, I've read enough history to know that up until Post WW II and the GI Bill, college was basically for the elites. Most people didn't even graduate from High School. It wasn't necessary for a good paying job or even get into management. I probably would have followed my father into the Army (Like I did) or been a meat cutter like he was before he went into the Army

4. What did this quote reveal about Custer - "He never forgot the world outside of West Point. He worried, rather, that it would forget him. Those who loved Armstrong knew that he loved them fiercely - and that his affection had an underside of defensiveness, resentment and fear of neglect."
I think he had a need to be remembered by society, a lot like some the celebraties today.

5. Gonorrhea - did that diagnosis surprise any of you when reading it?
Not really, I've done enough reading to know that several major figures in the Civil War had that particular affliction :)

6. How did Custer's fathers politics influence the young Custer?
What ever else Custer was, one thing he was not was deep thinker. In his political leanings I think he was just following the family tradition.


message 71: by Tim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Tim | 9 comments Happy wrote: "when I was there, one of the Rangers said he would often go up to Last Stand Hill at night where the monument stands and listen to the Ghosts." I can relate to that.

I thought I would provide this reference for those who haven't been there so you can get a feel for the experience as told by a ranger at the site. This is good stuff.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2UzK...


message 72: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
happy wrote: "Tim wrote: "Bentley, thanks for the lesson on using citations. I had forgotten about using the photos of the book cover and author when citing other works.

You are correct. I am in Arizona now but..."


You know many say that is true when there are violent deaths. Peaceful now but at the same time eerie.


message 73: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
happy wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Chapter One:

Questions:

1. What were the motivations for a boy like Custer to go to West Point in the first place?

2. Stiles mentions that a son of an affluent parent would not h..."


Happy you know that is probably a very important reason - a free education.

Yes, TR wanted the "tradition" followed but he suffered a lot when he lost his Quentin I believe. And TR Jr served.

It is interesting to hear what folks would have done had they lived during this time period and could not go to college. Nowadays it is a given that folks will pursue higher education.

I agree - he had a need for a legacy and got one but probably not the one he thought about.

I guess I am always surprised - even Winston Churchill's father Lord Randolph died of syphilis.


message 74: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Thank you for that link Happy - what a vast area. So bucolic now - but as the ranger stated it is a "spiritual place" for sure and he lives there.


message 75: by Aloha (last edited May 09, 2017 07:07PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Aloha | 181 comments Bentley wrote: "T. J. Stiles is a great writer - we begin with the Epigram:

And how much he suffered merely to appear in his own eyes what he wished to be! - LEO TOLSTOY, "The Raid"

Discussion Topics:

1. How ma..."


Kazaki. Hadji Murad (Illustrated) by Leo Tolstoy by Leo Tolstoy

I read Tolstoy's short story "The Raid" as part of a collection terrifically translated by Louise Maude and Almere Maude. It's full of meditation and keen observation on what in man's inner psyche makes him relish war, pushing him to kill another human being for reasons beyond self-preservation, "in what way and under the influence of what feeling one soldier kills another". This led to contemplation on the meaning of courage. "What is courage-that quality respected in all ages and among all nations? Why is this good quality-contrary to all others-sometimes met with in vicious men?...In every danger there is a choice. Does it not depend on whether the choice is prompted by a noble feeling or a base one whether it should be called courage or cowardice?"

This led me to read Plato's Laches or Courage with dialogues between 2 soldiers and Socrates on the nature of courage, from defining courage as endurance to wisdom. What the dialogues ended up proving is that courage is ambiguous. Even Socrates' cannot come to a definite meaning that would hold up to a logical dialogue.

Laches or Courage By Plato by Plato Plato by Plato

We are at the beginning of the book but Stiles laid a firm groundwork on how he will be approaching his documentation of Custer. Nice parallel in his description of Custer and Tolstoy's description of the officers appearing gallant and brave. I highly recommend reading The Raid as a companion to Stile's book. BTW, I kept on typing Custard. Long day.


message 76: by Jim (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jim | 14 comments I just picked this book up at the library an hour ago. Since boyhood (and that was a a long time ago) Custer has fired my imagination to the extent that I have toured the battlefield and, yes, I have a Custer action figure. I am perfectly willing to read any account of anyone even peripherally involved in the Last Stand.


message 77: by happy (last edited May 09, 2017 07:29PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

happy (happyone) | 76 comments Bentley wrote: "happy wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Chapter One:

Questions:

..Yes, TR wanted the "tradition" followed but he suffered a lot when he lost his Quentin I believe. And TR Jr served...."


Robert Walker in his bio of TR Jr goes into this a lot. According to Walker, TR had a low opinion of Professional Soldiers and the profession of arms. He felt that when the call came, you could always do your part. TR Jr did hear the Bugles Call, twice both in WW I and WW II. If you ever get a chance to visit the AMC over looking Omaha Beach in Coleville, he is buried there along side his brother Quinten.

Quite a few of TR's biographers think Quinten's death killed TR - He died about 2 yrs later

The Namesake The Biography of Theodore Roosevelt, Jr. by Robert W. Walker by Robert W. Walker Robert W. Walker

Enough of this tangent back to the Custer and his life :)


message 78: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 07:36PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Aloha I am glad you circled back and that has added a lot to our discussion of the importance of the epigram that Stiles selected. And nobody does better characterizations and development of personal qualities in characters than does Tolstoy so that must have been even more powerful.

Good recommendation for everyone.

Aloha another thing - I just circled back - isn't it interesting how Stiles developed his hypothesis, planned his project in terms of writing this book and then executed his thematic and character analysis. He is such a detailed researcher and leaves nothing to chance.


message 79: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Jim wrote: "I just picked this book up at the library an hour ago. Since boyhood (and that was a a long time ago) Custer has fired my imagination to the extent that I have toured the battlefield and, yes, I ha..."

Jim you have come to the right discussion - for a long time we have been planning this selection and now we are finally doing it. So far Stiles is not disappointing us.

A lot of our readers have toured the battlefield who are with us on this journey and that must have been an extremely powerful experience for all of you. To be able to understand and see how the battle unfolded and see the markers is quite impressive.

Welcome - start posting and interacting and we are glad you are here.


message 80: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 07:44PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
happy wrote: "Bentley wrote: "happy wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Chapter One:

Questions:

..Yes, TR wanted the "tradition" followed but he suffered a lot when he lost his Quentin I believe. And TR Jr served...."

Ro..."


I agree about TR - it really robbed him of his flamboyant spirit. Have you ever visited his boyhood home in Gramercy - Manhattan (NYC) - 28 E 20th street I think - it is a national park site right in the middle of Manhattan - very interesting and once you visit it - you can walk to a great restaurant called Gramercy Tavern (Flatiron district) on E 20th Street.

Now back to Custer (smile)

Here is the link to TR's birthplace - https://www.nps.gov/thrb/index.htm


message 81: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 09, 2017 07:54PM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Since we are discussing Custer's time at West Point - there is a statue in his honor:

Custer Monument is a monument at the United States Military Academy Cemetery, in honor of Lieutenant Colonel George Armstrong Custer who was killed along with his immediate command at the Battle of the Little Bighorn on 25 June 1876. Congress approved of a statue, to be made from 20 condemned bronze canons, and for $10,000, of which $6,000 had been subscribed by citizens of New York.

The monument was originally located near the academy's headquarters building near the site of present day Taylor Hall along Thayer Road.

Unveiled in 1879, the pedestal had a bronze statue of Custer wielding a saber and a pistol.

Custer's widow and many officers did not approve of this likeness and after only five years, the statue was removed and sent to New York City where Stanford White was supposed to remove the bust, to be displayed in the library.

However after White's murder, its whereabouts have since been lost.

The pedestal was moved to Custer's grave site in the West Point Cemetery during the construction of Taylor Hall around 1910. In 1965, a stone obelisk was placed atop the pedestal.

Remainder of article:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Custer_...


Custer monument next to his grave in the West Point Cemetery

This shows the original statue:


Source: Wikipedia


message 82: by happy (last edited May 09, 2017 07:52PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

happy (happyone) | 76 comments Aloha wrote: " ..BTW, I kept on typing Custard. Long day. ..."

(view spoiler)


message 83: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Very interesting happy (smile) - thank you for using the spoiler html.


Aloha | 181 comments Bentley wrote: "Aloha I am glad you circled back and that has added a lot to our discussion of the importance of the epigram that Stiles selected. And nobody does better characterizations and development of person..."

I felt the same way you did during my first read of these first few chapters. Stiles is a masterful non-fiction writer. He's obviously well-read in both fiction and non-fiction in order to pick the perfect quotation for his book. You did a great job posting a lot of materials. I'll have to revisit your posts and the chapters. I had a little detour with reading 2 little books related to this. I understand more what Stiles is trying to say, although it was said very well in the introduction.


Aloha | 181 comments happy wrote: "Aloha wrote: " ..BTW, I kept on typing Custard. Long day. ..."

[spoilers removed]"


Oh, good. I'm glad it wasn't just me. :D


happy (happyone) | 76 comments Tim wrote: "Happy wrote: "when I was there, one of the Rangers said he would often go up to Last Stand Hill at night where the monument stands and listen to the Ghosts." I can relate to that.

I thought I woul..."


That's the guy I was listening to :)


message 87: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Aloha wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Aloha I am glad you circled back and that has added a lot to our discussion of the importance of the epigram that Stiles selected. And nobody does better characterizations and level..."


I agree with you.


message 88: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
happy wrote: "Tim wrote: "Happy wrote: "when I was there, one of the Rangers said he would often go up to Last Stand Hill at night where the monument stands and listen to the Ghosts." I can relate to that.

I th..."


Excellent


message 89: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
I am moving to Chapter Three for the deep dive - but like we said before - you can discuss anything you would like in the first 107 pages this week without using html. If you do not want to use spoilers then post on the glossary which is a spoiler thread.

Just dive into the questions and post your opinions and responses or new questions.


message 90: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
RM wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Good morning, I am Bentley - Group Founder/Leader - welcome to the May BOTM. For those of you ready to go - start reading the Preface and see this week's assignment above. (Message ..."

That could be RM but I think the article itself said in the last line:

George Armstrong Custer may have done almost everything as prescribed. But it was not enough to overcome the combination of particular circumstances, some of his own making, arrayed against him that day. Inadequate training in marksmanship and poor fire discipline resulting from a breakdown in command control were major factors in the battle results. Neither Custer’s weapons nor those the Indians used against him were the cause of his defeat.

Another article talked about a lack of ammunition. It is hard to say. But whatever happened - they were also out manuevered.


message 91: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 10, 2017 02:41AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
RM wrote: "Bentley wrote: "As you join in on the conversation - please introduce yourself and post and just mention why this book interests you.

Then as we go through the book - I will post discussion quest..."


Yes, and remember we do not have any self promotion. You cannot discuss articles, etc. We delete all such mentions.

You might want to first go to the Mechanics of the Board thread and learn first how to do citations because that is a requirement.

Jesse James Last Rebel of the Civil War by T.J. Stiles by T.J. Stiles (no photo)

When you can find the book cover on goodreads, you add the book cover first, then you manually add the word by, then the author's photo which in this case is non existent and then the author's name in linkable text. If there is no photo - you add (no photo) at the end like I showed you. During a discussion about a particular book, you do not have to cite the book and the author we are discussing unless you mention other books by the same author or other books in general.

Here is a link:https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

I have reposted your post minus the self promotion so that your post follows our rules and guidelines:

RM Griffin stated - Hi, My name is RM Griffin aka alwaysdaddygirl

1) I have read one of his other books, Jesse James. I will keep working on doing that format correctly. I am sorry. I email interview him and others authors in this group. I am an intern at History News Network(HNN). ........ For me, I am more intersted in meeting authors, especially historian. I know others due as well. When I share about an interview, it is because I love and respect that historian. I think others would want to know what that historian is like. Being honest, I am Bless with every historian I spoken to in email. They all truly love history and not for fame and power.

2) I andwered the wuestion in the wrong thread. My apologizes. I truly will do better. Please be patient with me.

3)I think I read that book on high school. I love reading since I was six years old. The teacher taught that class was so beyond boring. Now I wish I pay more attention. I have learned that everyone has there own teaching habits. As long as you are learning, it is all that matters.

P. S. I am thirty nine years old. I am Bless for everything. Life can change in a blink of a eye.

🙏🇺🇸🎗💀(Why the skull? I am weird. Always have been. My papa taught me to always be yourself. Yes, he introduce to me Dr. Seuss.)


message 92: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Don't forget we do have a companion thread for every BOTM discussion thread which is the spoiler Glossary thread where a lot of ancillary material can be added:

Here is the link: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also if your discussions are not within the confines of discussing the weekly assignment or before - then you can also post there without having to use html.

If you go ahead - then the html is required here.


message 93: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 10, 2017 09:17AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Chapter Three which is part of this week's reading is called "The Protege".

The chapter begins:

"For the rest of Custer's life, he would revere a man who was his opposite in every way but one. The single trait they shared would wreck one of their careers and nearly ruin the other."

General George B. McClellan

Discussion Topic:

1. What was that single trait? How did it wreck one career and nearly ruin the other?

2. How did Custer end up in the cavalry which was the least respected branch?

3. McClellan was second in his class in 1846 and had entered West Point at 15 - he had become an engineer - one of the army's elite. Without doubt - he was one of the finest generals. He had served in the campaign that captured Mexico City in 1847 and was adept in languages. He was a social elite. What did Custer - who finished last at West Point and had no connections early on - have in common with such a man? How would you describe Custer's relationship with a man who was so different than he was? What was the connection? What are your general opinions on McClellan?

4. How did McClellan impact the young life of Custer? What did Custer gain from the relationship in other words?


General George B. McClellan with staff & dignitaries (from left to right): Gen. George W. Morell, Lt. Col. A.V. Colburn, Gen. McClellan, Lt. Col. N.B. Sweater, Prince de Joinville (son of King Louis Phillippe of France), and on the very right – the prince's nephew, Count de Paris

More:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_...
https://www.civilwar.org/learn/biogra...
http://www.history.com/topics/america...
http://www.historynet.com/george-mccl...
https://www.nps.gov/anti/learn/histor...
http://www.abrahamlincolnsclassroom.o...
http://www.civilwarhome.com/peninsul.htm
http://www.mrlincolnswhitehouse.org/r...
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifest...
https://www.pbs.org/wnet/historyofus/...
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/19...

Sources: Wikipedia, CivilWar.org, History Net, NPS, Abraham Lincoln Classroom, Civil War Home, Mr. Lincoln's Whitehouse, The Washington Post, PBS, Chicago Tribune


message 94: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 10, 2017 03:56AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Your thoughts on an excerpt from McClellan's book - this excerpt discusses Custer - also the quote by Miles?

An excerpt from Gen. McClellan's biography -- McClellan's Own Story -- page 365, regarding his views on Custer and his last battle:

"I became much attached to him. In the latter days of the war, when he commanded cavalry troops, he displayed a degree of prudence and good sense in conducting the most dangerous expeditions, that surprised many who thought they knew him well. In the battle ... against the Sioux ... those who accuse him of reckless rashness would, perhaps, have been the first to accuse him of timidity if he had not attacked, and thus allowed the enemy to escape unhurt. He died as he lived, a gallant soldier; and his whole career was such as to force me to believe that he had good reasons for acting as he did."

"The more I see of movement here (Little Big Horn Battlefield), the more I have admiration for Custer, and I am satisfied his like will not be found very soon again.”

~ Gen. Nelson Miles, Commanding General of the Army


McClellan's Own Story The War for the Union (Barnes & Noble Digital Library) by George B. McClellan by George B. McClellan George B. McClellan


message 95: by Jim (new)

Jim (jimwenz) | 78 comments I am a bit behind most of the group. I just finished Chapter 1 The Accused. I have to confess that I know very little about Custer. I think the only book I read about him was the Landmark biography that I read when I was very young.

I was somewhat surprised by some of the actions of Custer at West Point. I got the feeling that he really didn't care about learning to be a soldier, but was more concerned about his male and female friends. friends. Also, I didn't realize how much the "upper classmen" instructed the classes below them.

I hope to catch up soon.


Doubledf99.99 Hello all, I'm Dave.

I read this book last November and have been a reader on Custer since the late sixties, and this book by T.J. Stiles has given me a new look at Custer the man and commander.

What struck me about his rise was he never served in a regular line unit at company level, missing out on the day to duties and routine that a young Lieutenant would perform such as supply officer, training officer, platoon leader, conducting inspections, getting to know the troops and learning about discipline from the ground up.


message 97: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 10, 2017 08:54AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Jim wrote: "I am a bit behind most of the group. I just finished Chapter 1 The Accused. I have to confess that I know very little about Custer. I think the only book I read about him was the Landmark biography..."

No worries Jim - I think that Custer was capable and smart and could have done extremely well but just did not study because he was too busy cavorting around and acting up. He was immature and full of himself at West Point - a lot of bravado.

Nobody is ever behind here so just take your time - we are always here.


message 98: by Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief (last edited May 10, 2017 10:36AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Bentley | 44291 comments Mod
Dave, you make a good point - I think a couple of things probably happened. First he did not get his free pass out of jail due to his court martial so his classmates were long gone for a year I believe. And his classmates due to the war also had their normal West Point career cut short; so they never got their full complement of studies either. I read somewhere that Custer did perform inspections for one of the men he served under and I know he was a leader of certain groups - not sure if it was by rank or function though. Custer's military career seemed to be not so much a matter of choice or plan - but mainly by happenstance - due to events beyond his control.

Welcome by the way to the conversation. I always tell folks (who have read ahead or the entire book) to be careful to stay within the confines of the pages and events being discussed to avoid spoilers and if they are not sure to use the spoiler html. Your post above is OK.

One added point - if you look at message box 95 - I came across a quote from McClellan's book about Custer and his feelings and assessments of him. McClellan points out that Custer (when McClellan was his superior) even then commanded cavalry troops. I might also point out that there was no better planner than McClellan - to a fault - so Custer certainly under McClellan was exposed and involved with all logistical matters.


RM(Alwaysdaddygirl) (alwaydaddygirl) Doubledf99.99 wrote: "Hello all, I'm Dave.

I read this book last November and have been a reader on Custer since the late sixties, and this book by T.J. Stiles has given me a new look at Custer the man and commander.
..."


Aloha Dave 🇺🇸🙏


message 100: by Pop (new) - rated it 4 stars

Pop (sauraspop) | 4 comments Hi, I'm Pop. I love American history, especially the Old West and Civil War (non-fiction, historical/biographical fiction and fiction. My interest in this book is mainly because a year or two ago I visited the Little Bighorn Battlefield Museum while on a Montana fishing trip. I was stunned and intrigued. I had to learn more about the LBH massacre. Recently I have read "The Last Stand: Custer, Sitting Bull, and the Battle of the Little Bighorn" by Nathaniel Philbrick and "An Obituary for Major Reno" by Richard S. Wheeler, the latter a biographical novel, however pretty much factual and recommended. I've finished the Preface & Chapter 1. This is my first experience with T. J. Stiles and am very impressed. I agree with him, "The story begins with its ending."

The Last Stand Custer, Sitting Bull, and the Battle of the Little Bighorn by Nathaniel Philbrick by Nathaniel Philbrick Nathaniel Philbrick
An Obituary for Major Reno by Richard S. Wheeler by Richard S. Wheeler by Richard S. Wheeler


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