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The Unknown Ajax Group Read May 2017 Spoilers thread
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Carol She's So Novel꧁꧂
(last edited May 12, 2017 03:02AM)
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May 12, 2017 03:01AM
OK the currency converter, turns £840 in 1820 money into £35,212.80 in 2005 money - a very generous gift from Hugo!
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Richmond's 7th Hussars1815-1818 The remnants of the 7th Hussars were billeted in villages near Paris, after the final battle and were part of the army of occupation. They stayed in various locations in northern France and were finally sent home in 1818. They were at first quartered in Chertsey and were soon required to provide a detachment to attend the funeral of Queen Charlotte on 2nd Dec 1818. In 1819 they were ordered to Manchester and stopped at the home of their Colonel the Marquess of Anglesea, at Lichfield. They paraded on his lawn for the benefit of the Marquess and members of his family. The soldiers may well have been puzzled at the line-up of handicapped Pagets. Their Colonel had lost his leg at Waterloo, his brother Naval Captain William Paget had lost an arm, the Marquess's daughter Caroline was minus a hand, and his son, Lord Uxbridge was on crutches with a wounded knee.
From Manchester they marched to Glasgow where they had to act as riot control police when trouble broke out at Paisley in 1819. Fortunately there was no similarity to the disastrous turn of events that occurred at Manchester on 16th Aug when the 'Peterloo' massacre carved a place in history. There were injuries at Paisley on 11th Sep and some serious casualties, but no deaths, and the troubles were subdued. They remained in Scotland until Aug 1820 then embarked for Ireland. In 1821 the strength of the regiment was reduced to a peacetime establishment, from 8 Troops to six. In 1823 they returned to England and attended a cavalry review on Hounslow Heath on 15th July. They had another tour of duty in Ireland from April 1828 to July 1831 and then more riot control in Scotland. Serious riots broke out at Campsie, Dumbarton and Irvine in Feb 1834. Their duties were more in the nature of guarding buildings and patrolling than full on confrontation. Yet another move to Ireland took place in 1837 and it was from Cork that they sailed to Canada.
http://www.britishempire.co.uk/forces...
Cool data, Hana! Thanks for sharing it!
Wow! Pricey way to unload young male relatives- I remember stories from the 1950s when young men got into trouble,with the law they had a choice - jail or Army! Quite a change....
Susan in NC wrote: "Wow! Pricey way to unload young male relatives-Well, really, not so pricey for Hugo, who admits to a steady income of 15,000-16,000 pounds sterling a year. So a one time layout of 850 pounds would be a hit for that year, but not a major one. Richmond is happy, Mama and Anthea (and maybe grandpa) are happy because Richmond is happy---etc, etc...
True - I was thinking more of the families with several sons to place somewhere- one can be heir, one goes to the church, one goes to army, one to politics? Law?
Carol ♔Type, Oh Queen!♕ wrote: "OK the currency converter, turns £840 in 1820 money into £35,212.80 in 2005 money - a very generous gift from Hugo!"Serious money.
This is indeed generous of Hugo.
Hana wrote: "Richmond's 7th Hussars1815-1818 The remnants of the 7th Hussars were billeted in villages near Paris, after the final battle and were part of the army of occupation. They stayed in various locati..."
Very interesting Hana!
Thanks for finding and sharing this info!
It was generous but comparable to sending a boy to college these days. It got him started on a career that he otherwise wouldn't have had.
Susan in NC wrote: "Wow! Pricey way to unload young male relatives- I remember stories from the 1950s when young men got into trouble,with the law they had a choice - jail or Army! Quite a change...."Deborah Grantham's brother, Kit, demands that his financially-strapped aunt buy him a cornetcy in the army in Faro's Daughter, telling her carelessly that it "would not cost above 800 pounds." It was not an insignificant amount of money back then!
Cindy wrote: "Deborah Grantham's brother, Kit, demands that his financially-strapped aunt buy him a cornetcy in the army in Faro's Daughter, telling her carelessly that it "would not cost above 800 pounds." It was not an insignificant amount of money back then! "Kit was a bit selfish and very unlikable!
I finished it and have to say even though it's not up there with my favorites I enjoyed it. I LOVED Hugo!! How could you not. I loved how he took everything in his stride. Every insult just slid off his broad back, probably because he knew he'd have the last laugh in the end. He was so understanding of Richmond and really wanted to help him. Lord Darracott annoyed me most of the time. He really was up his own backside! It always bugs me when guys in these stories think they can do and say EXACTLY as they please just because they hold the purse strings. She's had crusty old characters in other novels but they had redeeming qualities. Not so here. I wasn't a bit sorry for him when he got his come uppance.
I do like that some of GH's 'old crusties' have no redeeming qualities, that is much more realistic! Some stories have these horrible characters with redemption arcs at the very end, just to make everyone likable. I like the GH was able to write some thoroughly unlikable characters.
Hear, hear! But you're right Critterbee,it is more realistic!
There is a lot going on in the second half of this book! First off, I had to look up some of the quotes that Vincent keeps throwing around: in the aftermath of the great blow-up in the library between Hugo and Lord D., Vincent murmurs, regarding Hugo's desire to be a junior partner with his grandfather, "Timeo Danaos ...!", which is "Beware of Greeks bearing gifts."
But the most interesting thing I found about the character of Ajax, who appears both in Sophocles and in Shakespeare, was this passage from a book on Sophocles' plays:
The Athena of Sophocles speaks of Ajax as pre-eminent not only for bravery but for prudence. ... Once, indeed, after he has uttered a defiant and menacing challenge, Hector calls him 'a blunderer, a clumsy braggart'; as in Shakespeare, Thersite calls him a 'beef-witted lord' and Ulysses, 'the lubber Ajax.' In another place, however, -- when he agrees, at the herald's suggestion, to break off his combat with Hector, though he was having the best of it, -- his chivalrous opponent recognizes Ajax as one to whom the gods have given, not only 'stature and might,' but 'understanding.' His good sense is conspicuous in the embassy to Achilles ... he addresses him in words of frank reproach, but also of friendly appeal and of cordial good-will.
(from Sophocles: The Plays and Fragments, by R.C. Jebb, Cambridge University Press, 1896
Sounds like our guy, doesn't it?
Elza wrote: "There is a lot going on in the second half of this book! ...Elza, thank you for doing the scholastic digging. Great (and illuminating) quote.
Yes, that sounds just like our Hugo!
Excellent sleuthing, Elza!
Susan in NC wrote: "True - I was thinking more of the families with several sons to place somewhere- one can be heir, one goes to the church, one goes to army, one to politics? Law?"More than one son could enter the same profession. Jane austen had two brothers who went into the navy for instance, and both did very well, ending up as admirals. and two of her brothers became clergyman, though the younger one, Henry, only after also trying the army, and banking. I don't think banking was a usual choice for the sons of the aristocracy though, Lord darracott would probably have a fit if any of his grandsons tried it. Henry austen being gentry rather than aristocracy could perhaps get away with it. For politics you had to have an independent income because MPs weren't paid a salary. The diplomatic service was another option, you might end up an ambassador perhaps.
Vincent is the J.R. Ewing of the Darracott family -- the one you love to hate. And really, he doesn't give us any reason not to. Knowing what was coming, I could be amused when he gets all up on his high horse about Hugo's suspicion that Richmond is smuggling. Of course Richmond wouldn't lie or engage in criminal activity! He's an aristocrat! "It is inconceivable" --But when he breaks the news of Hugo's wealth by congratulating Anthea on snapping him up? Well, that's just meanness.
A: "I was used to think you the most knowing one in the family!"
V: "Did you, my sweet? That comforts me, for I was used to think so myself, until I discovered that I must yield priority to you."
He is a bitter, frustrated, and to make it all worse, entitled young man. I can't help but sympathize with his dependence on his family for his income, while his brother has a fortune of his own, and of course finding out that Hugo is rolling in money makes him even more angry. But he doesn't do anything about it, except snipe at everyone around him.
I seem to remember some discussion on another thread about him being a perfect match for Tiffany Wield of The Nonesuch. And I think they are birds of a feather. Of course, neither would ever trust the other, but they would at least be thinking along the same lines!
Elza wrote: "I seem to remember some discussion on another thread about him being a perfect match for Tiffany Wield of The Nonesuch. And I think they are birds of a feather. Of course, neither would ever trust the other, but they would at least be thinking along the same lines! "I always thought that Vincent and Tiffany deserved each other. Not that they were a good match ... just that it would be a fitting turn for fate to put them together.
I'm a fan of neither but boy oh boy the books would have been much duller without either of them.
Well said Amy. They certainly did liven things up.
Confession - I like Vincent (probably not in real life, but not just as an interesting character, either).He is aggrieved at being supplanted by Hugo, and the discovery that Hugo doesn't even need the Darracott 'wealth' (debts?) makes it worse, but he doesn't change in his attitude to his cousin, to help him sponge off him in later years. He has a sense of humour when it isn't submerged in irritation, and is intelligent.
He is perhaps a bit old to turn his hand to a career, even in politics, but unless we assume that he sabotaged the heirs' boat in order to put himself closer to inheriting, he isn't any worse off than he was before. There are signs that he'll come round to being on good terms with Hugo.
Another good point in his favour (and where he differs totally from Tiffany, whom I wouldn't wish on anyone) is that he doesn't lie. Possibly not the extent of always speaking the truth, but when asked, he doesn't lie to get himself out of trouble. In that, he is a better person than Richmond, who lies to everyone, without shame.
Louise wrote: "Susan in NC wrote: "True - I was thinking more of the families with several sons to place somewhere- one can be heir, one goes to the church, one goes to army, one to politics? Law?"More than one..."
Thanks,Louise, and very true about politics, Trollope's Palliser novels taught me that!
And thank you Elza, for sharing your research - I learn so much from all of you!
Elza wrote: "Vincent is the J.R. Ewing of the Darracott family -- the one you love to hate. And really, he doesn't give us any reason not to. Knowing what was coming, I could be amused when he gets all up on hi..."Nailed it! Thanks for such a delicious and nasty comparison- Vincent as JR! It's funny because it's true...I can certainly see why the relative who left Claud money left it only to him, Vincent is such a bitter, self-important little snob!
Rosina wrote: "Confession - I like Vincent (probably not in real life, but not just as an interesting character, either).He is aggrieved at being supplanted by Hugo, and the discovery that Hugo doesn't even nee..."
Good point, Rosina! I always find myself being drawn to truthful characters, even when they're sarcastic and annoying. I don't have much patience with liars, no matter how young and "sweet".
With all his personal faults and limitations, I still enjoyed reading about Vincent as a character. Tiffany, though, I cannot abide. She singlehandedly brought down my rating of The Nonesuch a full star, as much as I liked the two main characters in that book.
Tadiana ✩Night Owl☽ wrote: "With all his personal faults and limitations, I still enjoyed reading about Vincent as a character. Tiffany, though, I cannot abide. She singlehandedly brought down my rating of [book:The Nonesuch|..."Tiffany is the worst kind of selfish two year old who will stop at nothing to gain her ends. I always hope that the way she was thwarted and dealt such a blow to her pride will, somehow, grow her up. Even a little bit...
We can only hope Karlyne but I have my doubts.
Rosina wrote: "Confession - I like Vincent (probably not in real life, but not just as an interesting character, either).He is aggrieved at being supplanted by Hugo, and the discovery that Hugo doesn't even nee..."
His last line (I think) in the book is well done.
Howard wrote: "Rosina wrote: "Confession - I like Vincent (probably not in real life, but not just as an interesting character, either).He is aggrieved at being supplanted by Hugo, and the discovery that Hugo d..."
Vincent does have intelligence (which Tiffany lacks), and so he also has a sense of humor!
Vincent, for all his bitterness and spitefulness, does seem to care about Richmond and his family. Towards the end of the story, he asks Richmond if he was in trouble/mischief, and then he alerts Hugo that Richmond is missing.I don't dislike Vincent. He is an effective foil for Hugo. I do dislike Lord Darracott!
Critterbee wrote: "Vincent, for all his bitterness and spitefulness, does seem to care about Richmond and his family. Towards the end of the story, he asks Richmond if he was in trouble/mischief, and then he alerts H..."Lord Darracot is a perfect example of why nobody should have his own way all of the time.
Spot on Karlyne. I could feel my blood boil every time he opened his mouth!!
Karlyne wrote: "Critterbee wrote: "Vincent, for all his bitterness and spitefulness, does seem to care about Richmond and his family. Towards the end of the story, he asks Richmond if he was in trouble/mischief, a..."Yes, thank you!
I think there is hope for Vincent and I did love his wicked sense of humor and his cynical instinct for self-preservation. He and Hugo will be good foils for each other and they clearly have what modern corporate types like to call 'diverse skill sets'. There is no doubt that the 'synergies will add value to the family brand'.
Lord Darracott is finished as a force in the family. The speed with which he deflated was one of the most powerful and shocking aspects of the last chapters. I came close to feeling sorry, but just retribution for the harm he has done will take an afterlife that includes some kind of judgement, not just a bleak few final years. Maybe I'm being too harsh?
Yes. I'm being too harsh. Shame on me. The pain of losing power and influence to someone of Darracott's pride and dominance must be extraordinary. Perhaps nearly unbearable.
Hana wrote: "Yes. I'm being too harsh. Shame on me. The pain of losing power and influence to someone of Darracott's pride and dominance must be extraordinary. Perhaps nearly unbearable."It's the normal cycle, and hit dowagers more often.
Hugo and his wealth will allow him to take over what he wishes, leaving Darracott authority within the household.
Hana wrote: "Yes. I'm being too harsh. Shame on me. The pain of losing power and influence to someone of Darracott's pride and dominance must be extraordinary. Perhaps nearly unbearable."Maybe not too harsh, Hana. After all, he does have a lifetime of selfishness to atone for. Or, if not complete selfishness, since he does seem to have a real regard for Richmond, at least an egotism which believes in his supreme rightness. It's not easy undoing decades of power.
Hana wrote: "Yes. I'm being too harsh. Shame on me. The pain of losing power and influence to someone of Darracott's pride and dominance must be extraordinary. Perhaps nearly unbearable."Fortunately, Hugo is more compassionate than his grandfather. Hugo treats Lord Darracott with more consideration than Lord D. ever showed to anyone.
And Vincent has the grace to acknowledge that Hugo was right and he was wrong about Richmond. I think Vincent is like most of us -- he wants to be thought unselfish without having to actually be unselfish. This is rendered difficult by the fact that the center of Vincent's little universe is, of course, Vincent.
Anthea nails it right at the beginning of the story: "Dear Vincent ... You must never marry. ... You cannot hope to find a lady who will like you better than you like yourself."
Plus, he's a dog in the manger -- he didn't want to take the trouble to do anything for Richmond himself, and found it extremely irksome when he actually did, but he sure was annoyed at the thought of being replaced in Richmond's hero-worship by Hugo.
I don't think he's past redemption: he even seems to feel a little bit sorry about the whole thing. But any change that might develop in his character is left to the untold "what happens after."
Hana wrote: "Yes. I'm being too harsh. Shame on me. The pain of losing power and influence to someone of Darracott's pride and dominance must be extraordinary. Perhaps nearly unbearable."It must have been devastating for him to "lose" to Hugo (be rescued by him, really!) but that came on the heels of his realization that the only living person he cared for (aside from himself) is injured, on the verge of publicly disgracing the family and being charged with a serious crime. Whether or not Darracott ever realized his role in his grandson's development, he was shocked and punished by the outcome. That's two major blows in a row to Lord Darracott, and quite severe punishment.
Cheryl wrote: "Hana wrote: "Yes. I'm being too harsh. Shame on me. The pain of losing power and influence to someone of Darracott's pride and dominance must be extraordinary. Perhaps nearly unbearable."It must ..."
And, probably it was the first in his long life.
I find that I'm liking Richmond less in this rereading. He's not honest and he's conniving. I know it's a bored teenager trying to have fun but when he's sitting there lying to Hugo about the Dowager House I'm pretty disgusted with him.
Claude is a truth teller and is quick to pick up on things. I suspect he's smarter than I originally thought he was. If he ever got over trying to be such a dandy he could probably go into politics himself.
Yes! I'd come down pretty hard on a five year old who lied like Richmond did, but then he'd apparently never been taught to tell the truth. Good question - at what age does a person who's never been "taught" become responsible?
I am not contributing anything but I just wanted everyone to know that I am loving this discussion thread. Some really fantastic insights.
Karlyne wrote: "Yes! I'd come down pretty hard on a five year old who lied like Richmond did, but then he'd apparently never been taught to tell the truth. Good question - at what age does a person who's never been "taught" become responsible? "I'll avoid going political here.
Haha, Howard! I didn't even think of it as a political issue...
Karlyne wrote: "Yes! I'd come down pretty hard on a five year old who lied like Richmond did, but then he'd apparently never been taught to tell the truth. Good question - at what age does a person who's never been "taught" become responsible? "
Richmond is smuggling because it's fun even though he knows it's illegal. He makes fun of the excise officer because he thinks the officer is stupid and he is so clever for avoiding him.
Can we make the argument that Richmond has never been taught right from wrong? Anthea knows it. I'm sure his mother tried to instill it in him even though his grandfather probably didn't help any.
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