Kafka on the Shore

[Travis]

I wish I weren't so confused as this is my second reading, but this was the first Murakami I ever read and I really didn't know what I'd gotten into my first reading. And yet I love his books even though 99% of the authors out there could write a similarly confusing book and I'd give up yet Murakami writes in such a way I enjoy them.

[Sarah]

It's definitely weird Janice. And confusing. And with no idea where things are heading. But written so well that it keeps you reading in hope that things will make sense at some point. As you say Travis, with another author it might be easy to give up. To be honest i'm quite used to weird fiction now. I also quite like comedy and shows which are wrird, surreal and where i don't get what's going on but find it funny and enjoyable nonetheless. I'm at a point where things have gotten extremely bizarre. I'll check in tomorrow and comment more.

[Janice, Moderator]

I was reading Pragya's review on another Haruki Murakami book this morning, and she was saying that someone asked him what was up with all the cats in his book. Apparently, he had a beloved cat when he was a kid. He talked to the cat, and the cat talked back to him. Okay, I get that, but why (view spoiler)[do such nasty things to them??

As for Johnnie Walker and Tamura being the same person, but not the same person, and Nakata doing the killing but has no blood on him yet Kafka does but he was across the country.... I'm baffled. (hide spoiler)]

That reminds me, I want to go back to Pragya's review. I was reading it on my phone and I wanted to comment. Hate the app.

[Sarah]

Travis, get ready for some more WTFs.

I agree Janice. I'm baffled on that too.

[Janice, Moderator]

Sarah wrote: "It's definitely weird Janice. And confusing. And with no idea where things are heading. But written so well that it keeps you reading in hope that things will make sense at some point. As you say T..."

We should be reading this for the group themed read in July. I guess we still could since there's no start date requirement. This definitely fits the weird theme.

[Sarah]

Yes i was thinking that Janice. I might discuss it a bit in the thread and link to this discussion for a stamp. Still going to read A Monster Calls too though. I've never got two badges for a group read before so it would be cool to do that.

[Janice, Moderator]

I'll do the same thing then and put you through your badge posting skills. Hehehe!

[Travis]

Pragya review I read last night. Her impressions are similar to my own how he always seems to go over your head although she did connect better with that book. She had read a short story collection and I have only read one of his collections and different than she did I really enjoyed his short fiction. Maybe because he doesn't have time to take you on an elaborate long journey

[Sarah]

I'm back to discuss the mentalness.

ch 28(view spoiler)[So Nakata thinks he was dead for 3 weeks. He's referring to the incident when he didn't regain consciousness.
Was he dead, or at least his mind/soul didn't exist?! He said he felt like he was far away doing something else. Was he? Is he Kafka now? Is Kafka an alternate Nakata and what life would have been like if he had regained consciousness like the other kids? I think I need to stop trying to work things out. lol.

I loved the line "My grandpa always said that asking questions is embarrassing for a moment, but not asking's embarrassing for a lifetime."

This entrance stone stuff is confusing. I wonder why Nakata feels the need to move it.

Colonel Sanders! What can I say. WTF! A Japanese Colonel Sanders who knows Hoshin's name who is a pimp. Gets Hoshin the best girl who's a philosophy student and then shows him where the entrance stone is. This was a series of surreal, crazy, chapters which I couldn't help but chuckle my way through. I laughed out loud when Hoshin asked the prostitute to quote some philosophy so he could last a bit longer. I actually thought this sex scene was the least awkward one that Murakami has written. Just when you think something cannot get weirder and it does. So there are 3 dimensions! Maybe? And a warp whatever that is.

ch27 was a little awkward and not at the same time. First Oshima talks about Kafka's muscular body and nice cock. Regardless of his sexuality, Kafka is only 15! Then Kafka asks Ms Saeki if she has children and she is unable to provide an answer.
(hide spoiler)]

ch29(view spoiler)[I have no idea what just happened here. It was so wrong. I think. So Miss Saeki just had sex with Kafka. Was it real?
Was Kafka dreaming? Was Miss Saeki actually asleep and sleep walking/having sex? Did she think he was her lost lover?
Did she know it was kafka? At the end, Kafka states "she's in a different world, and that's where your seed goes - swallowed into a place apart". Did he have sex with someone in a different universe? My head hurts. (hide spoiler)]

ch30. I haven't quite finished this chapter. (view spoiler)[Colonel Sanders isn't Colonel Sanders. He's nothing. But has a goal and has to make sure everything is on track for that goal to be achieved. And keeps track of the correlations between the worlds. Where is he from? Is he good or bad? Is he some kind of gatekeeper between worlds? (hide spoiler)]

Agh! I'm off to Bournemouth later today for the last weekend of my course. I'll read on the train journey there and back but won't be able to comment until Monday when I return.

[Travis]

https://www.lifehacker.com.au/2015/08...

I believe a few years removed from the foreskin is talking about how at puberty it's loose enough to slide down away from the penis head. I found this article. Circumcision in Japan is gaining popularity but still extremely low and mostly a Tokyo thing for highly sexually active males.

I got brave and googled but not after much thought into what may be a safe search lol

[Travis]

Similar to the kids vs no kids and etc. Convo in other thread circumcision is debated similarly in Japan another article said it is frowned upon a woman requesting her man to get cut. I say that flap of skin can harbor all sorts of bacteria if not kept thoroughly clean I don't blame women for trying to prevent a UTI or yeast infection or any other things brought by a dirty penis. But I live in a verypro circumcision country. Foreskin is just nasty. Yuck

[Travis]

I've also felt the detail of Kafka thoroughly washing the penis implied he still has a foreskin.

[Rusalka, Moderator]

I am up to chapter 12. I am going to go read some spoilers now.

Sorry, I got caught up on hols, then caught up with being off work, and now I'm sick. I wanted to read today while off work but my brain was too fuzzy.

I want to make a serious dent in this over the weekend though. I'm enjoying it immensely.

[Janice, Moderator]

LOL! Great research, Travis. I think you're right about Kafka not being circumcised.

[Janice, Moderator]

I read to the end of Chapter 23 last night. The only thing is that the (view spoiler)[lyrics to the song "Kafka on the Shore" seem to be significant, but to what? It's interesting that Kafka is seeing the ghost of Miss Saeki as a 15 year old. It's even more interesting that she's living. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

You're brave Travis! Nice one for taking one for the team and searching that one out and reporting back. I thought it referred to (view spoiler)[ puberty and it certainly makes sense why he talks about washing his cock thoroughly. Not sure how much of a thing circumcision is here in the UK. I know there are men who have it done here but I don't think it's as widespread as it is in the US. I'm pretty sure it's only done for medical reasons by the NHS, not as a standard. I could be wrong though. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I am pleased you are enjoying the book Rusalka :-) I hope you feel better soon.

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Right. So my thoughts up to end of chapter 11. All jumbled so don't read until you're past 11.

(view spoiler)[ I decided pretty early on that Crow is in his head. I think it was when Kafta got on the bus and then Crow was somehow there. But I want to know more about him. Also, Crow seems to be separate to the bold prose. Although I haven't seen the bold again since the prologue.

The old army files are interesting. I'm pretty sure they said they were WWII or a bit after. How very odd with the kids. I am intrigued what happens in that storyline, and if it relates to Kafka passing out later on in the book.

The library sounds AMAZING. I would totally hang out there. I like his friendly librarian guy too. Although I found his gender speech very odd and out of place. No context at all. Interesting, but why?

Nakata I like, and the cats. I don't think it's a translation issue, those words he says wrong. He's said himself that he has a brain injury and resulting impairment. A ministry could be a hard concept and word to understand depending on your injury. But a Mini Tree is close but using words you know. Why does your brother work at a Mini Tree? No idea, but it's the way things are and it's another thing you don't quite understand. Move on with your day.

I am quite enjoying the cats' insights into things as well.

The whole Sakura thing, I put down to Kafka's side as being a horny 15 year old. I don't know my sister, this girl could be my sister because of age, this girl is hot, stiffy, likelihood of her being my sister slim so we shall carry on. I also think there is a longingness for a family (seeing his Dad appears to be a bit shit at it), so all young women could be his sister but biological... popping ups... take prescient until sister is proven correct.

Sakura's side at her apartment was a bit odd though. Although, I can also understand the whole "I have a horny teenager who isn't going to sleep otherwise" mentality. But the age gap bothers me slightly. Maybe a bit of a prude on my side.

So the bit that got me embarrassed though, was him washing himself in the shower the first time. Now. I get it, and it's fine. However, you know that part of a flight when you just landed, everyone's ignored the seatbelt signs and are standing in the aisle with their bags trying to get off when the doors aren't even unlocked yet? Lexx and I just chill out during this (unless we have a connection) and keep reading until everyone's buggered off. But it was at this point in time this part came up, and i knew everyone behind me in the aisle was reading over my shoulder. It's like when I was on a crowded train in Singapore standing up with everyone around me reading weird, awkward sex scenes in Norwegian Wood. I was convinced the whole train was reading over my shoulder thinking I was a pervert. (hide spoiler)]

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Travis sivarT wrote: "I've also felt the detail of Kafka thoroughly washing the penis implied he still has a foreskin."

He said he has one.

Circumcisions are very rare in Aus as well. So I don't find it as odd as you do. If everyone washes their bits, you are okay with UTIs and infections, so it's not needed to chop bits of you off. I don't think I have ever seen a circumcised "member".

My sister in law is Jewish, and everyone was concerned that my nephew would be circumcised. No one cared they weren't married, or that it was a quick pregnancy into their relationship. The main concern people had was whether he was going to get snipped. He didn't, so even people with religious reasons don't do it some times here.

[Janice, Moderator]

Rusalka wrote: "Right. So my thoughts up to end of chapter 11. All jumbled so don't read until you're past 11..."

Re: Speech impediment - (view spoiler)[ You wrote, "Nakata I like, and the cats. I don't think it's a translation issue, those words he says wrong.... "

When he uses words like "sub city" and "mini tree", they are a result of his brain injury, but they are also a play on English words. I wondered what the play on Japanese words was in the original translation. It seemed pretty cool to me that the translator was able to pull that off. (hide spoiler)]

Re: embarrassment - LOL! They're probably wondering which book you were reading so they could get it and read it themselves.

I enjoyed your comments Rusalka. Hopefully your head clears soon and you feel better.

[Pragya]

Wow, you guys are really getting along with the book.

Thanks so much, Janice for telling me about this thread. I missed it. Your impression about this book is exactly how I felt when I read it. Hoping that as the story moves on, some answers will start coming but umm..

Travis, wow you're going for a second read. Brave of you! I have to do that sometime, just not right now. This was my first Murakami and I totally swore off him after this but thankfully Colorless Tsukuru Tazaki and His Years of Pilgrimage redeemed him to an extent and his latest short story collection Men Without Women went a long way in acquainting us further. I still have Norwegian Wood and 1Q84 to go through then I might circle back to this.

Sarah, you are drawing a lot of comparisons with Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World. Was it an easier book to read compared to this one? Would you recommend it?

Franz Kafka surely has an imprint on Murakami. His latest story collection includes his take on The Metamorphosis which is quite interesting. You can read that story for free here - http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/201...

By the way, after you finish reading this book and have taken a lot of time to analyze and ponder, you might want to read this story from his latest collection which I really liked - http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/201.... I had a difficult time getting through this book and picking up another Murakami after. This story will redeem him for you.

I will keep dropping by. I don't remember the book vividly now as I read it some 3-4 years back but all your observations are interesting. I read this with two of my friends who alternated reading the book and then we threw around hypothesis and tried to understand what was really happening. I think what stumped me the most was towards the end of the book (view spoiler)[ fishes falling from the sky. Although I later learnt that really can happen!
Wow. (hide spoiler)].

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Oh I remember what I was going to say. Cats and shadows.
(view spoiler)[ It did remind me of Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World as well, and I was super interested. So Hard-Boiled was written in 1985, and this one in 2002. So I don't think (so far) it's the same universe, but as the bingo card suggests, one of the many themes or things that reoccurs in Murakami's works. It should be the middle of the bingo card it seems. I'll be interested if it comes up again.(view spoiler)[ (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Pragya wrote: "Wow, you guys are really getting along with the book.

Thanks so much, Janice for telling me about this thread. I missed it. Your impression about this book is exactly how I felt when I read it. Ho..."

Lovely to see you! Personally, from what I have read, I think his easiest read is Norwegian Wood as it's very real world based, with not much of the parallel universes and fantasy elements. It's very linear. But has his gorgeous prose. I loved Hard-Boiled Wonderland and the End of the World and The Wind-Up Bird Chronicle but for different reasons. Hard-Boiled is more fantasy. Wind-Up Bird is probably a stepping stone between Norwegian, and Hard-Boiled. I'll let you know where I think this one fits as I get further along.

The thing I have learnt about Murakami is you have to relax, and let the storytelling sweep you along. You will not understand everything. And that is okay. It's the writing, the storytelling, and the experience you are coming for. That took me a while to get.

Lexx just read Hard-Boiled, and didn't like it as much as Sarah and I did. I think that was Mr hyper-rational getting in the way. He finds it hard to relax into a book, he wants to analyse everything, and you can't do that with Murakami I think.

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Thanks all. Just germy children in Adelaide getting me. Our friend we were staying with had this lurgy a week ago, and we made her two hot toddies, and she was raving about how well looked after she was with us there. People making two hot drinks for her is apparently the best treatment for a cold she has had since being in a house with 3-4 kids.

I felt very guilty today with the same bug sleeping until 12pm, and then reading the internet and watching tv with my aching body, sore throat and fevery/fuzzy head by myself in peace until Lexx came home from work.

I will survive and have told Lexx I'm reading tomorrow.

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Janice wrote:
Re: Speech impediment"

Ah I see. Good observation. I wonder if there is a correlation, or if they chose other words. See. Fuzzy head. I missed what you guys were meaning. I'll ask Lexx with his limited Japanese in the morning.

[Travis]

Yeah I think whatever is the norm for you either culturally or religiously or whatever to snip or not to snip is just the way and any other way is just weird. Here Rusalka hasn't seen a cut one and I've never seen a foreskin. The only real argument out there is the morality of choosing to circumcize or not when the baby is born because you are making a choice to possibly temove part of another humans body. Now for me it was no thought just yes circumcize the kid. But I had a friend who really struggled with this. He was probably circumcising but he was worried about making a decision for someone else. What if the kid grew up hating that part of him was removed. In the end he did it but wow it really tormented him to decide

[Rusalka, Moderator]

See, this is fascinating. I would have never thought there was a difference about this in US and Aus societies, except in the Jewish populations. Of which there are significantly more of in the US then here, so obviously it would be a lot more prevalent because of that (higher percentage in a higher population = lots more people). But I didn't think it was more wide spread. I love learning things.

[Travis]

Colorless Tsukuru is supposed to be quite similar to Norwegian Wood although I haven't read Norwegian Wood.

We also had a buddy read to hard boiled Pragya if you do read it check it out.

[Travis]

http://www.circinfo.net/rates_of_circ...

So I saw this earlier and didn't know if it would be of interest but it's percentage of circumcized men in various countries

[Janice, Moderator]

Rusalka wrote: "Janice wrote:
Re: Speech impediment"

Ah I see. Good observation. I wonder if there is a correlation, or if they chose other words. See. Fuzzy head. I missed what you guys were meaning. I'll ask L..."

I'll be interesting in what Lexx has to say about it.

[Janice, Moderator]

Travis sivarT wrote: "Yeah I think whatever is the norm for you either culturally or religiously or whatever to snip or not to snip is just the way and any other way is just weird. Here Rusalka hasn't seen a cut one and..."

For me, it wasn't about making a decision for another person. I couldn't bear the thought of putting my son through the pain. When we were being counselled about it in prenatal classes, there was heavy emphasis on not getting it done because there was no anesthetic and the baby feels pain just like everyone else. At the time, I didn't consider that someone may have been pushing us one way or another. I was a new mother faced with the knowledge that her babe was going to be in pain. It all seemed cruel and inhumane.

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Janice wrote: "I'll be interesting in what Lexx has to say about it. .."

So he pleads that he has been misrepresented and only has a couple of years of high school Japanese. I pointed it out it's more than all of us.

He had a couple of thoughts.
One - are the words some of those that have been appropriated from English into Japanese? So it's a direct "translation" of the play in the English words.
Two - he doesn't think ministry in Japanese includes the character for tree (it doesn't, I google translated).
Three - it could just be the principle of Murakami's word play for that character, and it's been applied in a way that makes sense in English. So clever translation.
Extension of that thought, is that how it was written in Japanese doesn't translate, and this was the work around they came up with in English.

Other thoughts we just had then, is that it could be a play across the different Japanese scripts as well. There are three scripts for Japanese, maybe there is a joke if you write the words in Katakana or Kanji instead of Hiragana for example.

So... we have no clue lol.

[Janice, Moderator]

Sounds like reasonable theories to me. It seems to me it was a tricky translation whichever theory is correct.

[Travis]

This book has a very dark tower series feel to me. Obviously very different plot.

[Janice, Moderator]

Travis sivarT wrote: "This book has a very dark tower series feel to me. Obviously very different plot."

Hmmm... I find this one to be more dream-quality, like I'm caught up in a dream. I don't know that I can say that about The Dark Tower. Maybe I'll feel differently when I finish it - which seems to be taking forever!

[Janice, Moderator]

Chapter 24 - (view spoiler)[How interesting that when they arrive at their destination, Nakata zonks out for 36 hours. Earlier, I made a comment about Nakata's syntax and vocabulary improving after he killed Johnnie Walker, but he seems to have reverted to more broken speech again. It's interesting too, that Hoshino has stayed with him. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 25 - (view spoiler)[ Out of the blue, Kafka wonders if Miss Saeki could be his mother. I guess I shouldn't be surprised because he seems to "see" his mother and sister in anyone sharing the same age. It just seemed so odd. The only tangible thing is that she travelled around interviewing people who had been struck by lightening (seriously?? why, and what?), and his father had been struck by lightening, so it is possible they met.

If she is his mother, I would wonder that perhaps she took the older sister and left him because the daughter was her lover's child. She would keep his child, and leave the other child with his father. That's all pure conjecture because so far, there's been nothing to suggest that she was pregnant when her lover was killed. I did wonder though because she disappeared right after. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 26 - (view spoiler)[So they're researching "entrance stones". Entrance to what? I wonder if their research will lead them to Kafka's library and what will happen when Kafka and Nakata meet.

What's with the brand names? First we had Johnnie Walker (Johnny Walker Whiskey), and now we have Colonel Sanders who appears to be still pushing legs. (hide spoiler)]

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Janice wrote: "Chapter 13 -"

Exactly what I thought. So... a guy you just met (view spoiler)[ takes you for a 2 hour drive and dumps you alone in the middle of the forest with no running water, or reception. I may be cynical, but this isn't normal (hide spoiler)]

On the way there, I had to laugh (view spoiler)[ when they were talking about Schubert. I found the sonata on YouTube and was listening to it while reading. I liked the idea of the imperfect composition and was talking to Lexx about it. Lexx goes "It's a bit boring" and left, and I picked up reading to which Kafka said the same thing. It's true. It was. (hide spoiler)]

I think I need to go and find some of these books he mentions too. Or at least look at them on Goodreads.

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Ah ha! A link between two storylines!

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Crow (view spoiler)[ so we have confirmation that he is within Kafka's head now too, after his conversation with Oshima about books. Good to know. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Chapter 27 - (view spoiler)[ The police have tracked Kafka to the library. Will Oshima have destroyed any alibi by saying that he had seen him the day of his father's murder, but not since? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 28 - (view spoiler)[ What was the purpose of having Hoshino visit a hooker before showing him the rock? "It's a formality you have to go through." was the explanation. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 29 - (view spoiler)[ Could Shakura be his sister? Anything is possible in this book. And then, Miss Saeki crawls into bed with Kafka. Can Murakami write sex scenes or what? (heavy sarcasm). It's creepy because Kafka thinks that she is his mother, and he's having sex with her. I think the only thing of significance here is that he didn't hear her car drive away, implying that perhaps she wasn't really there and that Kafka was indeed in a time warp. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 30 - (view spoiler)[ That whole chapter put me to sleep. I kept nodding off. Interesting that the whole universe is reduced to a FedEx box. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I read a chunk of the book over the weekend. I'm 73% in now. I've got some bits and pieces to do this morning but I'll pop back in later to comment properly.

[Travis]

I like all the different covers we have. I have

Now Sarah whose face is the cat making on your cover do you think

[Travis]

Description in 34 makes me believe hoshino is on my cover. I have thoughts, not necessarily conclusion to chapter 33 I'll be back. Something's churning in my brain.

[Travis]

Checking out this Beethoven archduke song. Makes me want to watch merry melodies. Jus perfect piece for cartoon accompaniement

[Rusalka, Moderator]

I have this one:



More bloody cats

[Travis]

33 (view spoiler)[ crow. Kafka. Kafka means crow. Crows very symbolic. I'd have to look up all symbolism but some say a crow has the soul of the dead. Ms. Sakei boyfriend died. Kafka on the shore. Crow on the shore. Dead boyfriend on the shore now the modern Kafka? Or Nakata. Says he died during his event as a youth now he's empty. Linked to crow?


Ms sakei doesn't know if having sex is right or wrong. I don't know Japan laws but it's definitely both morally wrong and absolutely illegal over here. Statiatory rape I believe they term it although legal terms not my strong suit. Sex with a minor for sure. I mean it's jail time. Maybe even jail rape type offense. I don't know if women sleeping with boys gets punished as hard as men sleeping with girls or if the prison mates abuse abusers in women's ward (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

34 (view spoiler)[ Kafka sleeps and is in a cave someone calling his name. Perhaps from the entrance stone Nakata has. But does Nakata know kafkas name (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

Travis sivarT wrote: "I like all the different covers we have. I have

Now Sarah whose face is the cat making on your cover do you think"

Good question. At first, I only saw the cat. A bit like an optical illusion. I'm guessing it's Kafka.

[Janice, Moderator]

I have this cover:

.

I finished the book yesterday. It seemed to drag on and I knew if I kept crawling into bed with it and falling asleep, I'd never get it finished. So I parked on the couch and binge read it till I was done.

You might not want to read this until you're done - (view spoiler)[I'm not sure I got the point of this novel. It was so abstract.

I felt sad for Kafka because he felt so abandoned by his mother. Her leaving made him feel like there was something wrong and unlovable about him.

I can't decide if Miss Saeki was his mother. I don't want her to be because then the whole sex thing was incest. She would have known if she was his mother even if Kafka was still playing with the idea that she was. I want to think that she was more of an ideal to him. I guess, since there were parallel worlds, that she was his mother in one of them.

I was sad that she and Nakata died in the book. I guess they fulfilled their destiny in correcting the fault caused by Miss Saeki opening the entrance. I liked that Hoshino was able to speak to the cat and learn how to close the entrance.

I thought the whole thing with Johnnie Walker would be resolved. The soldiers were instructing Kafka how to kill so that his opponent could not retaliate. Since JW was still a threat, I thought that Kafka was going to encounter him and finish the job - stop him from building this flute. (hide spoiler)]

I realized that I could use this book for my Survey challenge for task 12 - pets. Since my answer was cats and cats were featured in the book, it was a perfect fit. I talk to my cat and she chooses to acknowledge, or ignore, depending on her mood.

[Janice, Moderator]

Travis sivarT wrote: "33 .."

That reminds me of a recent case in the US of a (view spoiler)[31 year old female special education teacher being charged after having sex with one of her 18 year old students. Even though, he was technically an adult by terms of age, she was still in a position of authority over him and therefore culpable. The articles I read didn't specify what his condition was that he was in a special education class. He could have been autistic, mentally handicapped, among a host of other things. But it speaks to the question about his emotional age.

Regardless, I was astounded by the number of men who commented on the article with, "every teenager's fantasy..." and condoning her behaviour. Totally clueless about what is right or wrong. (hide spoiler)]