Kafka on the Shore

[Sarah]

Up to end of chapter 15. Some of what I write is from earlier chapters too that I forgot to mention in my previous spoilers. (view spoiler)[So hypnosis. The Prof says that the kids had regular movement of the eyes, the slight lowering of respiration, heartbeat and temperature, the lack of memory which are fit with the conjecture that it was mass hypnosis. All happy with the first lot but the memory one is a bit of a misnomer. James Braid who discovered hypnosis stated that amnesia was a sign of hypnosis back in the 1890s but over the years with more research being done, it has been shown that it is not a sign of hypnosis.
Sure amnesia is a hypnotic phenomena which can be achieved in highly hypnotisable people but only if it is suggested. Otherwise people remember everything that occurs during hypnosis.

He also mentions that mass hypnosis requires two things - the group must be close-knit and homogeneous and placed in restricted circumstances and something has to trigger the reaction simultaneously in all of them. I don't necessarily agree with the first one as group hypnosis can occur when people don't know each other all that well., for example in a workshop setting. The second I would agree with. Something needs to guide them in to hypnosis. It doesn't appear as if anyone was there so a trigger could have been set up prior to the event which would then allow it to happen at this later date. But what would the purpose be?

Ordinarily, hypnosis only works if someone wants to be hypnotised. There are exceptions like in street hypnosis where they don't know hypnosis is going to be used on them but they go in to it anyway. Sometimes surprise and it being unexpected can jog people in to hypnosis.

Children do tend to be more hypnotisable so would fit with what happened. Maybe the teacher didn't have a trigger installed.

As for the reverse to pull them out of hypnosis. No one can get stuck in hypnosis. If no one was there to "count them out" so to speak, they would just open their eyes and get on with their day. Hypnosis is not an altered state of consciousness just normal consciousness with a collection of psychological processes happening all at the same time.

Anyway, I don't think it will end up being mass hypnosis. It's Murakami. It will be more complicated and wacky than that I suspect. Just thought Id share my thoughts.

One thing now about Nakata dozing off after he had come around after being unconsciousness. He said that when he slept, though, his senses, ever vigilant, kept watch over the vacant plot. I something happened, he could wake up and do what was needed. It's almost like when the kids collapsed, they still seemed to be seeing something.

Back to the missing mother and sister. Very odd that the sister was adopted but kafka wasn't and that mum took her and not him. Curious about what happened to them. Will it end up fitting it to all this in someway? Will kafka be reunited with them?

It would seem that Nakata was beaten and had a bad upbringing before the accident as the teacher says it. Whereas he commented on it happening after the accident because he was dumb. But then he wouldn't remember before the accident. Why would he pick up the sanitary towels. That seems quite odd behaviour even if he didn't know what it was. Not sure though.

So I'm curious about why Oshima is helping Kafka. I am really hoping he doesn't turn out to be a peadophile.

More cat talking for Nakata and he meets the cat catcher (Johnny Walker). He is very odd. I have no idea where this is going. Could he be Kafka's father?

Kafka writes a diary and mentions that he doesn't know how long he'll remember all the details so he had better get them down as fast as he can. So does he have memory issues other than when he loses consciousness?! Was his father one of the children who collapsed?
(hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

I thought you might have some input on that topic Sarah. Interesting. I have no knowledge at all of that.

[Sarah]

Love your chapter 16 spoiler. Hadn't thought of that. I am on my phone at the mo so i'll be back later to comment on that. Plus i really want to get to chapter 18 after your wtf comment. :-)

[Travis]

Chapter 19. Now we understand Oshima.

Chapter 20. Got weird again.

Chapter 21. The plot thickens. And becomes more puzzling

[Sarah]

Sarah wrote: "Travis sivarT wrote: "How far into the prologue was that Sarah? I'm going to relisten to that part"

Page 3 in my book so not far."

Did you check it out?

[Sarah]

So chapter 16(view spoiler)[ A very odd chapter. So Johnny Walker can speak to Nakata through the dog. And he eats the souls of cats. What's all this about a flute? Like the pied piper? Attracts cats? Working way up to human? I have read a few books recently which involve someone or groups of people who feed on the souls of people in order to become immortal. This is the first one I've come across who wants to stop doing it. Interesting that he wants Nakata to kill him. He explains he's not himself as he goes to kill him. Then sits down afterwards and descends in to the darkness. Did this Crow or shadow come in to him to kill johnny walker then leave again? Is he sharing this crow/shadow/soul with kafka? How is that possible? I'll come back to this in a later spoiler. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 17-18(view spoiler)[I agree with you Travis. I think Oshima is gay too. Great that kafka is going to be living at the library. At the beginning of the book when he talks about running away he talks about living in a library. Is it fate? Is his path predetermined?
Does he have precognitive abilities?

Interesting kafka connection with the woman from the libraries song. Has to be more than coincidental. Especially as they stated that her life stopped when her lover died at age 20. Time outside of her flows on but it doesn't apply to her like she is frozen in time. Hmm. Things are getting weirder. I mean the cat beheading guy was weird enough.

And now fish falling from the sky! Nakata seems to have some precognitive abilities too. He knew it would happen and that he wouldn't be around when it happened.

Very odd that he had no blood on him after stabbing johnny walker which backs up your theory Travis. Was it kafka who killed him? He did have a lot of blood on him. But how does that work? If they share the shadow crow thing or whatever it is how did kafka get there physically? Does the going unconscious take them to another universe? Are they just the same people? Is time travel occurring? I have no idea what is going on. Loving it though. Again it feels like I'm in a dream when i read this.

I'm not surprised the policeman discounted Nakata's story. It did sound far fetched especially as he had no blood on him and he finished it off with it's going to rain fish! I'd have sent him away too. Also, why can't he speak to cats now? Has his brain fixed itself? Is he back to normal now?
(hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

The bold in that case is kafkas inner self. Not Crow just Kafka deep in thought. Would you just say it's when he is thinking to himself. Idk. I guess so

[Sarah]

Travis sivarT wrote: "The bold in that case is kafkas inner self. Not Crow just Kafka deep in thought. Would you just say it's when he is thinking to himself. Idk. I guess so"

That's what i thought. But not 100%. Perhaps it will become more obvious as we continue.

[Sarah]

I have an earworm now (chapter 19, maybe 20 i think)(view spoiler)[It's raining men. So no men have rained down but we've had sardines and mackerel, leeches and heard about millipeeds. So what's next? (hide spoiler)]I've read a bit further so have some more stuff to comment on but all my devices are currently all running out of power so tomorrow it is.

[Travis]

I've made it to 29. Couldn't stop listening. We're at such a chain if events I can't even decide what the heck to comment. Although the colonel Sanders bit is pretty funny. Not sure what chapter that was

[Janice, Moderator]

I'm going to start it tonight. I'm not sure how much I'll get read over the weekend since I'll be in the mountains with my dad & sister.

[Sarah]

Janice wrote: "I'm going to start it tonight. I'm not sure how much I'll get read over the weekend since I'll be in the mountains with my dad & sister."

Really pleased you are joining us Janice.

[Sarah]

I'm probably not going to get much read over the weekend either what with all the diy.

[Janice, Moderator]

I'm not sure that I'm joining you so much as trailing you.

I read the prologue, The Boy named Crow. (view spoiler)[ So, do I block off the first square on the bingo card - "precocious teenager". Or, maybe "running".

Found a quote I liked about fate being like a sandstorm, always changing direction. I'm reading on Overdrive and you can't highlight anything & copy it. All I can do is take screen shots. Here's a different quote from a screen shot I took last night...

"And once the storm is over you won't remember how you made it through, how you managed to survive. You won't even be sure, in fact, whether the storm is really over. But one thing is certain. When you come out of the storm you won't be the same person who walked in. That's what this storm's all about."

That sums up my experience of 2017 so far. And the storm is still raging. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Lol. We actually have that one in an earlier post Janice as it was the paragraph Sarah used to show me how the print utilized bold print in parts and we wanted to see how that went into narration. Which was enough of a voice change that I knew Kafka was thinking or talking to himself while listening.

[Travis]

You might be ahead of Rusalka Janice. She's MIA currently

[Sarah]

Travis sivarT wrote: "You might be ahead of Rusalka Janice. She's MIA currently"

She's on her hols reading this. When she's back she'll join in the discussion.

[Sarah]

I agree Janice that there are some good quotes in this book.

[Travis]

Sarah wrote: "Travis sivarT wrote: "You might be ahead of Rusalka Janice. She's MIA currently"

She's on her hols reading this. When she's back she'll join in the discussion."

Ah. I knew she planned to start midweek. But I can't keep track of people

[Travis]

Since I'm a bit ahead I started a new book for the weekend. Let folks catch up a bit. I get too far ahead then my memory gets jumbled

[Sarah]

Janice - I reckon the bingo card was MADE for this book!

[Travis]

I had that same thought Sarah. Might be a couple we won't get. The couple missed can be picked up in wind-up bird I believe

[Rusalka, Moderator]

Finally managed to start this one today and read 8 chapters on the plane. I will come and discuss this properly tomorrow.

[Janice, Moderator]

Sarah wrote: "Janice - I reckon the bingo card was MADE for this book!"

I'm in the middle of chapter 16, and I see several more squares that can be crossed off.

I'm reading the ebook in Overdrive and you can't highlight sections or take notes. I found that very frustrating.

[Janice, Moderator]

Back to Crow - (view spoiler)[ who is Crow? I thought perhaps he was like an imaginary friend, or his subconscious. (hide spoiler)]

Up to the end of Chapter 6 - (view spoiler)[ On the bus - I thought it was a bit strange that Kafka was getting aroused when thinking the girl could be his sister. Definitely an awkward moment.

The incident with the children losing consciousness was very strange. I'm curious as to what the explanation will be. Why did it not affect the teacher (whatever "it" was), and why did the one child not regain consciousness?

Check off several more bingo squares - Nakata talks to the cats, and is in search of a missing cat. In this section, Nakata misconstrues various words - "theery of fine ants", "minis tree of trade and indus tree". Since this is translated from Japanese, I can't help but wonder about how the original language fared in being misconstrued like that. It seems to me that this would have been pretty tricky to translate to English and having it work. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Chapter 9 to 11 - (view spoiler)[ What happened to Kafka? His experience of blacking out and coming to with no memory is so reminiscent of what happened to the children 50 years prior. Is there a connection?

At first, I thought that Kafka had been hurt, but the blood turns out to be someone else's. Or could it be an animal's? None of his possessions have been taken or misplaced. Just his memory.

It's odd that this has happened to him a couple of times before, and that he had hurt people in these blackout attempts. It makes me wonder what the reason was that he ran away from home.

The whole sex thing between Kafka and Sakura was extremely awkward. Actually, bizarre is a better word. I agree with Sarah and Travis' spoilers. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Chapter 12 - (view spoiler)[ Bizarre... again. I can't imagine a female teacher writing such intimate details in a letter to anyone, let alone a stranger. It seems highly unlikely given the time (early 1970's). All the lurid details of the erotic dreams wasn't necessary. It would be more reasonable to say that she had started to hemorrhage and that she panicked.

In her panic, she beat Nakata. We now know why he didn't recover consciousness. He had likely received a brain injury similar to shaken baby syndrome. But why were there no bruises? And why did the other children not say anything about the incident? Fear that she'd beat them too? But, surely one or two students would have been brave enough to relate what happened. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Chapter 13 - (view spoiler)[ So is "The Miner" significant? There are similarities - runaway, lured into the mines, and works there several years before going back to his old like.

When Oshima takes Kafka out to a remote cabin in the woods and leaves him there, I can't help but wonder exactly what is he luring him into. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 14 & 16 - (view spoiler)[ Johnny Walker is one creepy man. Is he even real? I wondered if this was Travis' "wtf" chapter. Dismembering the cats, asking to be killed, pretty sick stuff. (hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

Yeah I wonder about the translation. There are times and I don't have a specific example in hand when things are mentioned. Perhaps some pop culture type reference and I think I wonder if that's original or did they use an American thing for American readers. Actually even with the people don't come here to read Stephen King. I wonder if that's the Japanese as well or if murakami had used a very popular Japanese author. These are all things I'll never know since I'll never speak or read Japanese. 99% certain on that

[Janice, Moderator]

Did anyone mention that Stephen King sighting in the Sai King Recommends group?

You make a good point, Travis. Even the music Kafka was listening to may have given American readers something to which they could relate.

[Travis]

Sarah shared the King over there

[Sarah]

Thanks Janice for highlighting what you did in your chapter 6 spoiler (view spoiler)[Travis asked about the misconstrued words and I forgot to go back and type out how they were written. I hadn't thought about how it would have been shown in Japanese. An interesting thought.
(hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I am loving your questions Janice. I pretty much had the same thoughts. re your ch 9-12 spoiler (view spoiler)[I agree. Kafka blacking out has to be related to the children's experience in some way.
But how I have no idea right now. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

re your ch 12 spoiler(view spoiler)[It does seem likely that the teacher was responsible for brain damage. I wondered whether she just caused a concussion and then the group collapse caused that to become a problem resulting in the inability to regain consciousness and the subsequent brain damage. I guess it doesn't matter -
it is what it is. I wondered about the lack of bruises too. Maybe she just kept slapping him rather than punching - seems quite un-ladylike (for a teacher, culture and time period) to punch the kid. But even with repeated slaps, there would be bruises. But perhaps if there were some, they'd have been written off to "as a result of the collapse". I think there was mention that none were injured apart from a few bruises. As for why the kids didn't mention it, as it was so close to when they fainted, I'm guessing that was wiped from their memory. They didn't remember collapsing just like Kafka didn't. I don't think they were scared. I think at least one would have mentioned it if they had remembered especially with the heavy grilling they probably got from the military. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I think the pop culture references are pure (view spoiler)[For example,
in one of his other books, Norwegian Wood, there is a lot of pop culture references and the book is named (view spoiler)[after the song by the Beatles. (hide spoiler)]I'm guessing during the time Murakami grew up, there was a growing interest in the Western world just like with China. I looked at his wikipedia page and it does mention a fascination with and being influenced by Western Culture. It also mentions he read Kafka and Dostoyevsky (which was quoted in this book), among others. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

So how are you liking the book so far Janice?

[Sarah]

ch 19(view spoiler)[The women visitors to the library made me laugh.
Just how they were. They completely didn't get it when Oshima took things out of context to make a point. And such silly things to pick fault with. But the revelation that came was not one I expected.
I guessed that Oshima was gay but I didn't expect that he/she was transgender. I though Kafka responded very well to the news and it didn't seem to change how he viewed him. He still refers to him as him rather than her. I thought it showed maturity. (hide spoiler)]

ch20 and 21(view spoiler)[Loved the falling leeches. It would seem he can control the downpours. Less of a precognition as I first thought when the fish fell from the sky. He knew to open the umbrella and I'm guessing he did it to save the guy from being beaten to death. I am curious about the choice of animals falling. The fish could be to help the cats. But leeches? And millipedes? Looks like Nakata has done this before. Did this ability crop up as a result of the accident as a kid? And what is it's purpose? Is there a purpose?

I like the help Nakata is getting from people on his travels. The conversations he's having are interesting. Some things don't add up or that makes me wonder. For example, Nakata mentions being in Yamanashi during the war and the gut asks him which war. Is he transcending time? Is he really 60?

OK so Kafka's father is dead. Murdered. He was the cat killer? I'm so confused. Did Kafka kill him? Through Nakata?
Was what Nakata saw real? Was it made up somehow to get him to do the deed or to protect his ego?

So weird the premonition that Kafka's father told him would happen. Kill his father and sleep with his mother and sister? What a thing to tell a kid. Was he a nut job or did he know for sure? And how? It certainly makes sense now why Kafka is fixated on women being his sister when it has anything to do with sexual encounters or arousal. I really hope he doesn't end up doing that.
(hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Sarah wrote: "So how are you liking the book so far Janice?"

I'm enjoying it. It's not a quick read for sure. I read the bit about Kakfa's (view spoiler)[penis after showering in the rain (hide spoiler)] to my sister so she could join in on the chuckle. Then commented, "Argh! I'm not even half way into the book."

[Janice, Moderator]

Chapter 16 - second half. When I posted last night, I was in the middle of chapter 16. Now I'm finished it and (view spoiler)[it was a bit too graphic for my tastes which says a lot considering I don't get grossed out easily. But the in depth description of how Johnny Walker killed the cats was over the top for me.

It's interesting that Nakata lost consciousness after he killed JW. It's a recurring theme in the book. (hide spoiler)]

I started chapter 17 last night, but was too tired to finish it.

[Travis]

Honestly Janice, being a reread I knew that part was coming and was thinking just skip it. But I couldn't I had to make sure I didn't miss some detail. (view spoiler)[I think the graphic nature was worse because we'd been introduced and talked to the cats (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I agree about chapter 16 (view spoiler)[I wanted to look away like Nakata. As you say Travis, having spoken to the cats first made it all the more real. It felt like it was my cat on that table under the hands of JW. And I don't even have a cat. lol. Yes it was pretty horrible.
I still have the image of the cats heads all lined up in the freezer in my mind. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

I was so sad that (view spoiler)[ Mr Kawamura was a victim. And then he picked up Mimi next. I was beside myself. I would have killed him too. I think I would have thrown my iPad across the room if he killed her too. That section was extremely disturbing to me. (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Travis sivarT wrote: "Chapter 17 [spoilers removed]"

I got the same impression.

[Janice, Moderator]

I finished Chapter 18, Travis' "wtf chapter", and I have to echo that sentiment.

(view spoiler)[Are these chapters happening chronologically in time? If so, Nakata killed Johnnie Walker while Kafka was holed in the cabin. If not, was the blood on Kafka's shirt that of JW? Is there some kind of parallel universe going on?

What is with the raining fish? How did Nakata know, and where did he go?

Bizarre! (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

Re Sarah's spoiler in msg 56 - (view spoiler)[ It was kind of sad that Nakata lost the ability to talk to the cats. It seemed to me that his conversational skills improved also. He was speaking with better syntax, and his vocabulary was improved, though he still talked about his sub city.

Hmmm - sub city - maybe that's significant with my parallel universe thought. (hide spoiler)]

[Sarah]

I have read more these last few days. Sorry I've not been in to discuss it. I've reached the 50% mark :-)

ch 23 (view spoiler)[The lyrics of the song kafka on the shore are very interesting. It has to mean something. Somethings stand out already anyway like the raining fish, the soldiers outside the window,
kafka, a knife that pierces your dreams. All very interesting. Is the entrance referring to where you can enter the other world/universe?!?
Starting to wonder whether Nakata is Ms Saeki's lover?!

Also very strange the "ghost" appearing to kafka. It seems it's a younger version of Ms Saeki. Very bizarre. (hide spoiler)]

ch 24(view spoiler)[Interesting that Nakata resembles Hoshino's grandfather. A connection. I like that Hoshino has gone with Nakata. I am wondering why though. Where does he fit in to all of this?

Unbelievable how long Nakata slept for. Does he go days without sleeping and then has to catch up? Is his sleeping to visit the other world/universe? He seems to gain insight from his sleep/dreams. Upon awakening, he knew where to go. Does it recharge his strange abilities?

I liked that Nakate could fix Hoshino's back for him. I can't imagine many men being happy for pretty much a stranger to straddle them and sort their back out for them. Likes to fix things but never fixed someone's back before. What did he do to him? How did he know there was something wrong? Can Nakata come and sort my back out for me?

Now he's mentioning finding an entrance stone. An entrance to what? Is there a connection to the song? Curious.
(hide spoiler)]

ch25(view spoiler)[Interesting that Kafka mentions that the "ghost"
does not register him but it's like she is in a different world and they are divided by an invisible border. I wonder if that is what is happening with Nakata and Kafka. I also wondered if Kafka's mum and sister is in the other world. Now Kafka is wondering is Ms Saeki is his mother. And she fancies the 15 year old version of her.

Very bizarre that no mother is listed on kafka's birth certificate. That isn't possible. Even if the mother died in child birth, it would still be registered. It could be a copy which the father doctored I guess after she left. All very strange.

I am pleased Ms Saeki and Kafka have chatted now. Although it was a strange conversation towards the end. An entrance to another world was mentioned again. As was the fact she'd written a book about people who survived being hit by lightening. That has to mean something. And it looks like Kafka's father was. The plot thickens. No idea what it means. I'm enjoying the ride though.
(hide spoiler)]

[Travis]

As I've said before I always feel like Murakami has a deeper meaning than I am able to u derstand. It's also hard to discuss because you get an idea while you read then when you try to type it out it doesn't seem to go into words as well as you'd imagined

[Janice, Moderator]

Chapter 19 - (view spoiler)[ I loved this section. And now we know about Oshima - transgendered. I thought the way he handled those women was brilliant. People really need to lighten up with all these political correctness, and "gender correctness". It's gotten to the point where it's ridiculous. Good point about the fact nobody complains about men and women sharing the same bathrooms on a jumbo jet. (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 20 - (view spoiler)[So Nakata intentionally set out to go somewhere. What's with the raining fish and now leeches? (hide spoiler)]

Chapter 21 - (view spoiler)[ Johnnie Walker is Kafka's father? It appears that he was murdered the night that Kafka awoke in another city across Japan covered in blood. I see on the bingo card "parallel worlds", and I'm thinking this is the situation here. In one parallel world, Koichi Tamura is a sculptor and Kafka's father. In another, he's Johnnie Walker, killer of cats. I noticed there was no mention of cats in the newspaper article about Tamura.

Is Nakata headed to meet up with Kafka? (hide spoiler)]

[Janice, Moderator]

It's a good thing that I'm buddy reading this with you because I'm not sure if I would have continued if I was reading it on my own. I am enjoying it, but it's giving me mental gymnastics trying to make sense of it all. I'm hoping that it will make sense by the end of the book.

[Travis]

I've been trying to wrap my head around that Janice. (view spoiler)[. What's up with the cats. We're there a bunch if dead cats. Did Nakata really speak to cats. Is Nakata going between two worlds here. I mean what is going on. (hide spoiler)]