1984 question

I don't think that the thought police were as omniscient as we were led to believe. I mean Julia kept her innermost thoughts to herself and played the game very well, appearing to be a model citizen. Winston did himself inn by providing concrete evidence.

Oh, goody, this is just *begging* for a Doylist vs. Watsonian analysis...

The Watsonian reason is that the Thought Police wanted to study their victims like bugs under glass. Remember, the Thought Police agent *lied* to Winston when he told him there was no telescreen in the room he was renting to them. So they were *already* planning to monitor them with a hidden telescreen. They want to watch the deviants and traitors "in the wild", in order to learn about them so they can hone their skills of totalitarian oppression.

The Doylist reason is, of course, Orwell needed the delay in arrest so he could get write about Winston and Julia's thoughts and secrets and build up total empathy for them before beating them to a pulp...

O'Brien said that he recognized some of himself in Winston. I think he respected him, and therefore didn't want to outright kill him, but transform/brainwash him. That would be the true victory in O'Briens opinion. He's about domination, not just brutal use of force.

In Julia's case, I guess she might have been useful for a while, to lure party members into commiting 'sex crime.' She was also a rebel by nature, and had to be tamed.

My guess; the antique store has been, and will lead to the brainwashing followed by death of many more curious party members. Curiosity in anything but arms-development, investigation technique and torture-metods get you killed in that world.

I don't know why but I feel that before Winstone bought the diary and start writing down his thoughts, he had been caught previously by the Thought-police.

because walking through the dialogue between Winstone and O'Brien, and the dreams which haunted Winstone every night, I felt like O'Brien knew everything about Winstone and had the same torturing session and discussion many times in the past.

Because Winstone is unique and special, excelled other citizens with his courageous thoughts, and he's not that easy to tame.

what I'm trying to say is: Winstone was on a constant loop, Thinking then getting caught and brainwashed, then thinking again. And when we read the story, that was the last time the regime finally got hold of Winstone and compelled him to Love Big Brother.

It does seem like they really drew it out. It might have been because they felt very confident that Winston didn't represent a threat. They view their system as unbeatable and permanent. They're bureaucrats and just weren't in that much of a hurry to close the case. Maybe they wanted to observe him to collect as much information as they could about other traitorous citizens. They could have even been perversely curious.

For some reason, I can't add a reply to Ra'ed's comment above, so I'll add it here:

I've been looking for other people who believe this too (that Winston had previously been caught and released at least once prior to the beginning of the novel.) I believe it's not only possible, but the most likely reason for several details in the book.

1. He says he remembers O'Brien telling him "We shall meet in the place where there is no darkness" about 7 years ago. There doesn't seem to be any alternate reason for that.

2. He just so happens to have a space in his apartment that he can avoid being seen by the telescreen. The telescreen is not in the normal position. This could be explained away, but it seems like a major coincidence, especially since: "it was partly the unusual geography of the room that had suggested to him the thing that he was now about to do." The "thing" referenced is starting the journal.

3. Winston tells us that people are released after being caught, sometimes for years at a time, before being re-arrested.

I think the thought police took their time to study their suspects. I think Julia and Winston had been watched by them for a long time so they could study the most effective ways to convert them. As you can see in the end of the book, Winston is tortured with his biggest fear, rats, a fact that the thought police probably discovered during this time.

I think they waited to make sure they knew exactly what they were dealing with. To know things they could use to break him.

I think the thought police likes to study their victims before cutting them down, waiting for the best moment to catch them. Winston and Julia are caught in a very special moment, when they felt hope for the future, when they were sure of their love for each others. This way the thought police could take away all of that from them, and completely annihilate them.

The Soviet Union liked to play cat-and-mouse games with its victims. Maybe Orwell knew that and used it as a plot device to increase tension.

Some interesting ideas. It's a couple of years since I last read the book, but I'm inclined to the view that they wanted Winston (and Julia) to pursue his initial thought crime and act upon it, to experience the illusion that he was successfully rebelling against Big Brother, before destroying them. If their crime had remained a mere thought, then its destruction within their psyche would not be so complete. "Who controls the past, controls the future; who controls the present, controls the past" - O'Brien was able to turn an act of rebellion into love for Big Brother. It is of course also true that even in totalitarian states, the police cannot be omnipresent - but they like to convey the illusion that they are, which may be the impression that Orwell wished to create. In other words, the reader is left asking this very question, and there can never be a definitive answer, because the only truth in this dystopian wo

The Thought Police no doubt believe in the system--they believe that what is done to Winston is done for his own good as well as for the good of the Party and thus the people. You cannot 'rehabilitate' someone until you know quite how far they've fallen. Quite what you need to do to them to overcome their resistance. Who or what they love so that you can make them reject that person, thing or belief and embrace Big Brother. And it works. Winston finally realises that he loves Big Brother.
On the other hand, the Thought Police are part of a monolithic Party which is like a slow machine. It grinds everyone to dust eventually, but it does so slowly. Nothing can stop it. It cannot be resisted. It can afford to outlast you. When your rebellion comes to an end, the agony of loss is only that much greater.

Hi, I've just finished the book. If I'm not mistaken, the Thought Police must have figured that Winston was betraying the party since he bought the diary in the store from Charrington, or even before. According to what I read, Charrington, who was described as an old man at first, once he led the police to the room rented by Winston, Charrington was then described as a young person and Winston supposed he was part of the Thought Police.
It's not really clear to me why the Thought Police waited so long until they arrested Winston and Julia. Maybe the delay was intended to make them feel they could beat the system and then to show them instead that they can't trust anybody (nor Charrington, nor O'Brien) because the party is the Big Brother followed by everyone.

I'll have to read it again, but it seems to me that Winston made a bad judgments early in the story. At first he assumed that Julia was evil and O' Brien was his kindred spirit, when in reality it was just the opposite. All this was based on inexact cues such as body language, facial expressions, and eye contact.
By the same token, the thought police really could not read his mind just from his subtle reactions to things that he saw or heard. He was very stupid to put his thoughts down on paper, and even more stupid to spill his guts out to O'Brien. Winston could have used some lessons in the art of dissimulation.

Possibly hoping he would lead them to other problem characters, and dropped the hammer on him when it was clear the two of them would never contact anyone outside their affair.

Alternatively, and more plausibly, they're just not so omniscient as they pretend. After all, who has the time to monitor everyone? They checked on him at random, replayed his records and saw he'd been being naughty for months, and told him they'd been watching all along as stage 1 in breaking him.

ok so i see too many people liked the book. i don't know why but since i opened the first page, i knew i wouldn't like it.
if you didn't like the book leave a comment and tell me why?
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