World, Writing, Wealth discussion
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Composing new words
I don't know! I still am fighting the purists (read 'Grammar Police') in the UK who keep cursing me for using U.S. English setting for my spellchecker instead of 'Real English'.
Michel wrote: "I don't know! I still am fighting the purists (read 'Grammar Police') in the UK who keep cursing me for using U.S. English setting for my spellchecker instead of 'Real English'."I expect Americans to speak Americanese and Brits to speak English. But one of my (British) authors was berated for her poor spelling and strange words, so much so that she felt the need to write in a later version that her book was written in British English.
I think it's silly that people should have to advise that they are not using Americanese.
But on topic, I regularly use Spanglish/Gibberish ie a mix of the two, to thepoint of using a spanish word in an english construction (if that makes sense).
I often use 'replied', 'questioned', 'answered', 'countered', 'mumbled', 'shouted' and 'whispered' instead of 'said'. I do find 'correct grammar' to be often stiffling. What is more important? To cling rigidly to all grammatical rules or to write a text that conveys new ideas and keeps the interest of the readers?
Faith wrote: ""Your turn", Algie capitulated."No thanks" and away banked Jane, thoughts spiraling into the lower field like a clogged and coughing Sopwith Camel.
"Forget me", Algie snotted forlornly into his hankie...."
You offer a good solution.
Looks like somebody's writing despite father's discouragement -:)
I'm all for nuances in voice, new words, created words. It gives color to the pros. When I see too many "saids" I indicate a difference in person by inserting the name at the end of the speech: "I can't understand you, John." "Look it, Mary. It's this way." That gets repetitive, too. But a changing language is a growing language. If it doesn't change, it dies. Eventually, earth will have one language with variations of dialect. Notice the different forms of English there are spoken today. It just isn't King's English any more.
Since I live in Germany, I like to use smatterings of German dialect sometimes, but it has to be double noted in English, if the words are not easily understood. Everybody understand: Ich liebe dich, main Mädchen. But, not: i mog di, main Mädele.
Michel wrote: "I often use 'replied', 'questioned', 'answered', 'countered', 'mumbled', 'shouted' and 'whispered' instead of 'said'. I do find 'correct grammar' to be often stiffling. What is more important? To c..."Dialogue tags are not 'correct grammar'. They are about writing skill. It's 35 years since I was told not to use pretentious tags. The rules still hold.
If you like whispering, hissing, growling, snarling, barking, mumbling, spitting blah blah, fine.
Just be aware of two things:
1) It detracts from the dialogue
2) It sounds amateurish as hell.
Also, re Faith's comment. When there is a dialogue between two people, no tags are needed.
I once steered away from dialog tags, and then I noticed who uses them, like, ahem, George Martin, Martin Cruz Smith. So it's a good rule to be aware of--and a good one to ignore at the proper time. "We should start back," Gared urged as . . .
"Do the dead frighten you?" Ser Waymar Royce asked with . . .
Like most 'rules' the trade authors ignore them profusely. :)
Adding, Michel's is a good list, not overdone, but adds hmm, feel/characterization.
In dialog, tags, brief descriptions, also slow down the dialog which can be a good thing. People generally don't rapid-fire converse.
Thanks for your statements, M.L. Roberts. Being a Francophone first, I will not pretend having a good knowledge of English grammar, but I read a lot and learn from it.
Thanks Michel. I agree, that's what I'm doing as well, reading and learning. If writers don't do both, they are forever stuck adhering to--and parroting--Writing 101.
Michel wrote: "I don't know! I still am fighting the purists (read 'Grammar Police') in the UK who keep cursing me for using U.S. English setting for my spellchecker instead of 'Real English'."It depends upon your setting. If you story takes place in America with American characters, of course the dialog would be "American". Or mixed if your British character is visiting America. In fact, you could have a lot of fun with that sort of thing. (mixing u[ "lift" vs "elevator", "boot" vs "trunk", etc.)
The prose should match your audience (market). If you sell more books in England, then it should make use of British spelling and wording. If your target market is America, by all means try to match the American "lingo".
Al wrote: "Michel wrote: "I don't know! I still am fighting the purists (read 'Grammar Police') in the UK who keep cursing me for using U.S. English setting for my spellchecker instead of 'Real English'."
It..."
Since my ebooks are published online via two sites that have an international membership but are based in the USA, I chose to keep a setting on U.S. English, for the sake of consistency. Also, I would say that most of my readers are from North America. However, I did use some Australian slang in a couple of novels in which my heroine had to deal with Australian 'diggers'.
It..."
Since my ebooks are published online via two sites that have an international membership but are based in the USA, I chose to keep a setting on U.S. English, for the sake of consistency. Also, I would say that most of my readers are from North America. However, I did use some Australian slang in a couple of novels in which my heroine had to deal with Australian 'diggers'.
Michel wrote: "Al wrote: "Michel wrote: "I don't know! I still am fighting the purists (read 'Grammar Police') in the UK who keep cursing me for using U.S. English setting for my spellchecker instead of 'Real Eng..."...Since my ebooks are published online via two sites that have an international membership but are based in the USA, I chose to keep a setting on U.S. English, for the sake of consistency. Also, I would say that most of my readers are from North America. However, I did use some Australian slang in a couple of novels in which my heroine had to deal with Australian 'diggers'.
Perfect.
Michel wrote: "However, I did use some Australian slang in a couple of novels in which my heroine had to deal with Australian 'diggers'. ..."I've said before that I feel stating a non-US status can be an asset. The Aussies put out some pretty crazy stuff, so I picked up a book off Smashwords last year just because the author gave the language as Australian English. I've read a few that I suspected came out of Eastern Europe and enjoyed them despite everyone 1-staring them over bad English, bad grammar, etc.
It's a real shame my fellow countrymen are so US-centric that many won't even look at foreign books, movies, etc. unless they're jumping on a bandwagon. Think the boom in Japanese horror in the 90s.
Ben Brown is another Aussie (actually a transplanted Brit) who writes SF. When he was publishing through AKW Books his excellent works actually sold better in Britain than in America. Perhaps because his cultural background causes him to write stories that appeal to the British tastes more than American??? I don't know what his mix is today, now that AKW Books has closed its doors.I suspect that tastes DO differ from one country to another, even when they speak the "same" language.
I'm an Australian, and I do write in Australian English. ie. colour, honour, realise, travelling etc. I've also recently been enjoying Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London series, and enjoying it's unabashed Britishisms, and it's British humour.
Cover art is also something that changes from country to country, and many books have different cover art depending on the target country.
That is for sure, Al "Tank". It seems the taste in the US leans more to porno fantasies. The market is loaded with them. Saying something that has value and worth has lost the market. It tells you what is the attitude of the present public, and it has a lot to do with the present economic situation -- escape into some form of pleasure (mental masturbation), because its hard to reach reality.
GR wrote: "That is for sure, Al "Tank". It seems the taste in the US leans more to porno fantasies. The market is loaded with them. Saying something that has value and worth has lost the market. It tells you ..."I was thinking more in the "super hero" category. Brits seem to like messy superheros while Americans gravitate to lean and clean (in tights?). Brit SF movies are more "talkative" while American SF is more action oriented (actually, I find Brit SF movies to be, mostly, boring from my American point of view).
In neither instance have I noticed a lot of sex or lack of it being the dividing point. I remember Bennie Hill's comic routines which featured a LOT of light-hearted sex.
Perhaps I'm not reading the "right" American SF??? I'm a bit old-fashioned and tend to the masters (Heinlein, McCaffrey, etc.). I did read and enjoy Al Philipson's (American) Children of Destruction which has a lot of sex in it (he once said that a member of his writing group egged him on to including it), but I would have enjoyed it with the sex toned down somewhat too (maybe we can get together and convince him to rewrite it?). His latest book, Last Train from Earth, has absolutely no sex in it (but people do fall in love and get hitched).
John Bowers' (American) early stuff was filled with it, but his later works are almost super clean by comparison (had to get it out of his system?).
On the other side of the pond, Ben Brown's superheros kinda stumble around for a bit before gaining some confidence (and no sex at all). I admit my exposure to Brit SF is limited, so take all this for what it's worth.
As we used to say in advertising: Sex Sells. It's not the content. Americans seem to be obsessed with sex. This is the reason books, movies, TV shows attract audiences. Commercials often have a sex bent. I'm sure once an author has a following, it isn't necessary to pump the book full of sex. I just Beta-Read a book that was full of sex, but if you took the sex out of it, it would have carried anyway. It was page turner. And, I understand the reason for it by this author -- he's on his second book. He's new at writing and wants to sell. We all do.
Faith wrote: "I think that inventing new words should be encouraged. Aside from that, readers should accept less structured ways of saying the same old things because I can't be the only one who finds this excha..."Mix in the use of stage directions. E.g.
Bill punched him in the face. "You lying bastard."
"The money is mine," Fred said, taking a step back, blood dripping from his nose.
"I was born first," Bill shouted.
"Nonsense. You -"
Gunfire erupted in the room. Bill and Fred jerked and twisted before falling to the floor like puppets without strings.
Sylvia stepped from the other side of the desk. A pair of H&K 9mm submachine guns in her hands. The barrels of the guns trailed a thread of gray smoke as she walked from the room.
She paused at the door, casting a last glance into the room. "Brothers."
Al wrote: "Michel wrote: "I don't know! I still am fighting the purists (read 'Grammar Police') in the UK who keep cursing me for using U.S. English setting for my spellchecker instead of 'Real English'."It..."
Precisely. Hence why I target US English.
Graeme Rodaughan wrote: "Faith wrote: "I think that inventing new words should be encouraged. Aside from that, readers should accept less structured ways of saying the same old things because I can't be the only one who fi..."Mix in the use of stage directions. E.g.
Bill punched him in the face. "You lying bastard."
"The money is mine," Fred said, taking a step back, blood dripping from his nose.
"I was born first," Bill shouted.
"Nonsense. You -"
Gunfire erupted in the room. Bill and Fred jerked and twisted before falling to the floor like puppets without strings.
Sylvia stepped from the other side of the desk. A pair of H&K 9mm submachine guns in her hands. The barrels of the guns trailed a thread of gray smoke as she walked from the room.
She paused at the door, casting a last glance into the room. "Brothers."
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You can go even further and eliminate dialog tags to make sure you include action (avoid the talking head syndrome). This example is a pretty good illustration of that although the second line could do without the dialog tag and still stand on its own:
"The money is mine!" Fred took a step back, blood dripping from his nose.
The next line would be hard to change, so the dialog tag would be the easiest to handle.
For more on eliminating dialog tags see: Dialog Tags That Kill Your Story.
By the way, Al Philipson's Last Train from Earth, which I referenced earlier, was written without ANY dialog tags. I read somewhere that he did it just to prove it could be done and to improve his writing skills.
BTW, Graeme, where did that selection come from? Sounds like an exciting story.
Great points Al.Just made it up on the spot.
Graeme Rodaughan wrote: "Great points Al.Just made it up on the spot."
Wow! Scenes like that keep a story interesting. I hope you write like that in your stories.
Hi Al, I see your a big fan of Sci-fi. So am I. Love it.
Graeme Rodaughan wrote: "Hi Al, I see your a big fan of Sci-fi. So am I. Love it."Yep.
Graeme Rodaughan wrote: "Hi Al, I see your a big fan of Sci-fi. So am I. Love it."All my life since the day I got my first library card as a kid. Now I write the stuff under a pen name ("hard" SF) as well when I'm not editing other people's mss.
Do you invent words to name the stuff that you invent or compose new words to express your intention more precisely?
Since I write futuristic SF, and have also written about other planets, I have had to invent new words, but where a device has the same function as a current thing, I use that name and assume the technology has merely evolved. It is a difficult issue because I don't want the book to read as if nothing has changed, but equally I don't want to simply confuse the reader.As an example of what I mean, my aliens in my book about a theocracy had Cardinals and Curia, not because they are catholic, but simply because it was easier for the reader to note their status in the local society.
I prefer not to try to write jargon. It is the same with speech. The way people talk changes over time, and if we were transferred back to Shakespeare's time, we would stand out like a sore thumb, and if we went back to something like the 13th century we would find the speech incomprehensible. So speech will change in the future, and aliens will use a totally different language, but what is the point? You have to write so readers will understand, and in my opinion, that is most easily done with current language. And if you are going to do that, only invent words for something that does not exist here. As for animals, unless they appear frequently, I just describe them, and then refer to them by a two-word summary of their most distinctive features.
I am in business of slang (book: Suburban Dictionary) so I not only like including newly-created words, I feel like I have a responsibility to do so. I think and hope some writers in a more than a few genres have used words from my book, blog, and updates. - Timothy Fay
a typical word: "Frunk" the "trunk" in the front of a Tesla, where the motor "would be." :)
Nik wrote: "Doesn't matter if you speak English, Russian, Chinese or maybe even the Marsian, each year the lingo acquires new words whether through borrowing from other languages to the point that it becomes w..."am in business of slang (book: Suburban Dictionary) so I not only like including newly-created words, I feel like I have a responsibility to do so. I think and hope some writers in a more than a few genres have used words from my book, blog, and updates. An example: Frunk: the "trunk" in the "front" of a Tesla. - Timothy Fay
Michel wrote: "I don't know! I still am fighting the purists (read 'Grammar Police') in the UK who keep cursing me for using U.S. English setting for my spellchecker instead of 'Real English'." ... ha ha :)
I love language and am always interested in new words people come up with. I remember "Borking" coming into use after Bork's failed confirmation to the Supreme Court.
Looks like the thread is getting livelier :)
Like Ian Miller, I made up several words for my forthcoming fantasy/sci fi novel, "Ell." For example, her genus is not Homo sapiens but "Rhfunia" and her skin is called "shlemma." I love inventing vocabulary to suit the world, and when used clearly in context, a reader has no trouble following along.Amy L. Bernstein
The naming of planets by the inhabitants is an interesting problem. My view is this would be one of the first things the most primitive form of speech would have, so it should be a short word e.g. we have Earth. So my alien planets include Ulse and Ranh
Timothy, I saw a GM exec use the word "frunk" yesterday, talking about their new all-electric truck. Thanks to your post, I knew what he meant :-)
I always appreciate it when an author uses a new word and gives the pronunciation. Otherwise, I'm distracted by not knowing how to pronounce it. e.g., "Ulse" and "Rahn." I'd guess uhlsuh and ron (rhymes with wan).
Does it matter if you mispronounce? Scout, for what it si worth, I thought Raaan
It only matters to me, Ian, I guess. I can't really get into the story if I'm constantly wondering how invented words are pronounced. I can't look them up to find the pronunciation, so I'm left to guess every time I read them, whereas the characters know the pronunciation. Just a quirk of mine. It's one reason I don't read much science fiction. So many invented words with no clue as to how they sound. Most authors don't give pronunciations, but I'd love it if they did.
I am writing fantasy. I do think up some magic spells that are gitterish, or names for random creatureas, but not too many words of my own creation. I too stick to English most of the time
I write fantasy and sci-fi, so I do think up words all the time. Sometimes I cross normal words with them, and sometimes I invent a new one. I try not to do it too much. But sometimes that's hard.
I am writing both sci-fi and fantasy, so I am having to deal with both ends of this spectrum. For sci-fi, because my character is military, I make up a bunch of acronyms (defined at the end of the book for reference) and most of the technologies I 'create' are based on words that most people would be familiar with. Perhaps the one I least explain is the communication device (UCD) which I sometimes refer to as a cell or cellular device because that is what people can relate to, even if in the future such a device might be based on a completely different technology.
For the fantasy element, because what I am writing has humans in it, I often make up new creatures but relate them to earth creatures by describing them as bird-like, elephantine, reptilian, gibbon-like, and such. I also make up other words for names and places but I am concerned about readers being able to properly pronounce them. In one, I use the word 'kijh' to be akin to a king but I'm not sure how to tell someone how to pronounce it. I intend the 'jh' to be spoken the way the 's' is in the word 'occasion.' It's not quite an 'sh' sound. Does anyone know the proper phonetic spelling for that sound?
The closest I can come is zsh - as in "kizsh." Is that close?
I looked up phonetic spellings and they list 'zh' as the correct phonetic spelling for words like 'beige' and 'pleasure.' But that doesn't seem intuitive to most people. I like Scout's interpretation of 'zsh.' Also, my intent in pronunciation of 'kijh' is for the 'i' to have an 'ee' sound. Still, it raises the question of whether it is important to the author for the readers to be able to sound out the made up words as he/she intended or if it is the visual look of blending certain consonants together that is more important. I think there may be a bit of both, because certain words (even if fictional) can convey a sense of the alien culture just by the nature of their letters. For example, within our own world, looking at words like 'Francois' versus 'blitzkrieg' invoke different images within our minds because of our knowledge of the cultures of the people from which each of those words originated.
World, Writing, Wealth
Books mentioned in this topic
Last Train from Earth (other topics)Children of Destruction (other topics)
Last Train from Earth (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Amy L. Bernstein (other topics)Ben Aaronovitch (other topics)
What about you? Do you attempt to enrich your respective language with your invention/composition of words, import from other languages?