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The Brothers Karamazov
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The Brothers Karamazov by Fyodor Dostoyevsky (Classics Group Read June/July '14)
I'll join you! :-D
Just started, the list of name variants will prove very useful I think!
Although I doubt I'll get to it in June, I'm hoping to read it over the summer, so I'm definitely keep track of the conversation.
I have already read it but I will follow your discussion.
very sorry for the messy appearance of introductory comment, the things you do in a hurry! Can't fix it now since I am on phone app, but will fix it when I have a minute. Hower this 'classsic' is so classy it deserves a tripple 's' in the middle ;)
Which translation are people reading? Has anybody got the Project Gutenburg version and is it good quality on the kindle?
Heather wrote: "Which translation are people reading? Has anybody got the Project Gutenburg version and is it good quality on the kindle?"I've got the 49p one from kindle which I think is probably the same as Project Gutenberg but with a picture on the cover. It says the Unabridged Garnett Translation on it.. It doesn't have page numbers but has a contents list with links to each chapter heading. The translation is by Constance Garnett. So far it seems fine to me.
Gill wrote: "Heather wrote: "Which translation are people reading? Has anybody got the Project Gutenburg version and is it good quality on the kindle?"
I've got the 49p one from kindle which I think is probabl..."
Thanks Gill. I think I will download the free translation but switch to that if I notice any problems
I've got the 49p one from kindle which I think is probabl..."
Thanks Gill. I think I will download the free translation but switch to that if I notice any problems
Heather wrote: "Which translation are people reading? Has anybody got the Project Gutenburg version and is it good quality on the kindle?"My Kindle edition is from Amazon (the free one which is basically the Project Gutenberg edition), translated by Contance Garnett. I haven't started yet but it does have an interactive table of contents and page numbers (870 pages!! glad we have 2 months!).
I found this quote from the Sparknotes which relates to Part 2 and to Zosima very interesting and thought provoking (view spoiler)
I'm reading the Barnes & Noble edition translated by Garnett and have read up to book 5 so far. I dont know how to hide spoilers so Ill just say I thought I'd have to push through a lot of old English but its a smooth read and I'm appreciating what Zossima has to say.
Summerdale wrote: "I'm reading the Barnes & Noble edition translated by Garnett and have read up to book 5 so far. I dont know how to hide spoilers so Ill just say I thought I'd have to push through a lot of old Engl..."Summerfield, if you click where it says (some html is ok) it shows you how to do spoilers. Get back to us if it's not clear.
Summerdale wrote: "OK thanks. Consider this my practice run [spoilers removed]"Great well done!
Leslie wrote: "Heather wrote: "Which translation are people reading? Has anybody got the Project Gutenburg version and is it good quality on the kindle?"My Kindle edition is from Amazon (the free one which is b..."
Garnett was a prolific translator of Russian novels and plays, and was largely responsible for the ability of English readers to read widely in Russian literature. (She was personally chosen by Tolstoy to translate his works.)
I find her translations generally to be workmanlike and perfectly readable, but not particularly inspired. Those who read Russian criticize some of her choices, and it's sometimes noted that she really fits the Russian writers into her style rather than trying to match their styles, so Dostoevsky, Chekhov and Tolstoy sound pretty much alike, while I'm told that to Russian readers their styles are very different.
Still, I think she's perfectly acceptable.
I'm new to this group, so don't know the protocol for discussing the books. Is there a schedule for the reading? Or do we just proceed at our own pace?
Is all the discussion in this one thread, or will threads be set up for sets of chapters?
If it's all in one thread and there is no reading schedule, how are spoilers handled, or don't we worry about those?
Sorry to be a nuisance, but I want to understand the process here so I an be a responsible participant.
Everyman wrote: "I'm new to this group, so don't know the protocol for discussing the books. Is there a schedule for the reading? Or do we just proceed at our own pace?
Is all the discussion in this one threa..."
Hi Everyman, you're not a nuisance at all! You ask perfectly reasonable questions, which I shall try to answer here:
There's no particular schedule, you just read at your own pace. All the discussion will be on this thread, keeps it simple that way. As for spoilers, please use the method found in (some html is ok) as some people may be slower readers or joining late to this. Please feel free to add your comments as you go along or when you've finished, or both! Hope you enjoy it!
I've just noticed that this spreads over June and July! I'll hopefully get round to it sometime in July, preferably early.
I went whole hog and paid $.99 for the Richard Pevear translation. I am enjoying this book very much (a surprise since I had been lead to believe that Russian authors are inaccessible) but I have read that the Pevear translation is "difficult" because it tries too hard to reflect the original Russian text. Any thoughts, anybody?
I started the book yersterday and I agree with David: I' read the first five chapters and it's already captivating!
I'm up to Book 5 now, and enjoying it. I'm finding it much easier to distinguish the different characters than I expected.I've just been reading Ivan's speech. Very impressive (view spoiler)
I've just read the Grand Inquisitor chapter. Tremendous! It brings back memories of some of our discussions during the readalong of Paradise Lost.
David wrote: "I went whole hog and paid $.99 for the Richard Pevear translation. I am enjoying this book very much (a surprise since I had been lead to believe that Russian authors are inaccessible) but I have ..."I don't know about this book, but when I decided to read War and Peace I tried 3 or 4 different translations from the library. I liked Pevear by far the best and actually paid money to put it on my e-reader.
I have just started this so am only up to Book 2, but I am finding the style easy going. The names I am getting used to (plus having read some other Russian literature in the past year or two I am getting better at the Russian nicknames -- Aloysha for Alexy for example).
I've finished too Book 2. It is pleasant to follow, even if Fjodor Karamazov is really annoying for me too, not only for the other characters. The bow..hmm..I have my theories!
I'm now reading Part 8. I'm really enjoying this. I especially like the narrator and his comments. I've just been reading an interesting part about jealousy.
Anastasia wrote: "I've finished too Book 2. It is pleasant to follow, even if Fjodor Karamazov is really annoying for me too, not only for the other characters. The bow..hmm..I have my theories!"
I found the chapter in Book 2 about the ecclesiastical courts dull. I haven't decided yet about Fyodor Pavlovitch yet but am leaning towards your opinion :)
I am reading this very slowly, only a chapter or 2 at a time. I need to speed up to keep up with you guys!
I wouldn't worry, Leslie. I'm probably not starting until July so you'll be ahead of me!
@Leslie: I agree with you, sometimes it was a bit tedious with all the verbose discussions among the characters. And Ivan's theory about Church was very questionable from my point of view, even if it has already been called into question by the others. I'm curious to know him more and understand the big favor he has in the family. Aleksej is more likable so far!
Yes, the three brothers are very different from each other, aren't they? Though there are some interesting comments later in the novel about which of them is most similar to their father. I like the fact that Dostoyevsky has filled out the character and personality of each of the brothers.
But....aren't those endless theology discussions mostly satire? I think that the point is to get us into the heads of the characters. I thought that Smerdyakov's "proof" that renouncing your religion to keep from being tortured and killed isn't really a sin (or at least not much of one) and the reactions of Fyodor Pavlovich and his sons was laugh out loud funny. And the conclusion that you have to be Russian to understand that there are only two men on Earth whose faith is strong enough to successfully command a mountain to move to the sea but they are hermits saving their souls deep in the desert and nobody knows who they are....incredible! I had no idea that reading this book was going to be so much fun.
David wrote: "But....aren't those endless theology discussions mostly satire? I think that the point is to get us into the heads of the characters. I thought that Smerdyakov's "proof" that renouncing your rel..."I hadn't thought of it that way -- maybe that will help. Although I did find this bit (about Smerdyakov's idea) more interesting than the stuff about the ecclesiastical courts in Chap. 5.
I am in Part 2, Book 4 now.
I've finished this now and thought it was excellent, and much easier to read than I expected.
Glad to hear it, Gill. I've still not managed to start so I'm not sure I will manage it this summer due to another busy month ahead but I really want to!
I heard that, Heather! Like you I have a jam packed July: I am 25% done and loving this book, but how am I EVER going to finish it by July 31?
I am not loving it but I do find it easy enough to read. I am in Part 2, Book VI -- about 40% done. I am just not that interested in God & religion so I am finding big sections of the text uninteresting. I was fascinated by a passage of Ivan's:(view spoiler)
David wrote: "I heard that, Heather! Like you I have a jam packed July: I am 25% done and loving this book, but how am I EVER going to finish it by July 31?"
The threads stay open, David. So if you finish after July 31st you will still be able to comment.
Even if I don't manage to start, when I do get round to it I will come into the thread to check out the spoilers
The threads stay open, David. So if you finish after July 31st you will still be able to comment.
Even if I don't manage to start, when I do get round to it I will come into the thread to check out the spoilers
I love classics but I think, for a read like this, one must have patients which I do not possess. This is my 1st group read so I'm very sad to say I stopped half way through. I WILL finish it in time but it will be a while. It does have very good tid bits but the convo's are, as someone said earlier, a little too verbose for my liking.
I agree again with Leslie: I'm not interested too much in Christianism and religion too, so particulary the sections set in the closer are a bit heavy, even if Zosima is interesting. I'm not loving it yet, but I'm beginning to be interested in all these matters at stake.Poor Aleksej: he is totally immersed in blamable characters, his father is annoying, Katerina Ivanovna is annoying too. If I were him, I'd stop wasting my time running after them and their needs! But I understand how much he's far from being similar to me..an heart of gold!
The last chapter of Part 1, Book IV was moving and interesting, I'm speaking about the story of Snjeghirjov and his son.
Ok, I am getting confused. When we read "Middlemarch" and then "Persuasion", I thought that there was just as much preachy dialog as we are seeing now in @The Brothers Karanaziv but.I don't remember near as much dissatisfaction with it as I am seeing now. Is there a difference? If so, what is it?Or is this an age thing? When I was younger, I avoided the classics like the plague for this very reason, but I think that in those days, I was not subtle enough to understand the humor that is such a large part of all that preachiness and the pumped up drama (at this, her heart beat fiercely in her breast and her voice sounded close to tears....etc., etc...).
Thing is, whether we are reading Eliot, Austen or Dostoevsky, one of the more interesting things about these books is that they give us a glimpse into a society that is long gone and but dimly understood by most of us and the politics, religion and mores of those times are often illuminated by these conversations.
But to get back to my original question, what's the difference?
I think that in TBK the religious sections are very concentrated ie you get almost a complete chapter at a time. I think it's more concentrate than in the other books you mention. Having said that I found the religious discussion in this book pretty interesting especially the Grand Inquisitor chapter
I don't think that Persuasion has any discussion about the nature of religion or God in it (if it does, it is extremely brief!). I didn't think Middlemarch had much, but I also didn't really like it that much. This, as Gill pointed out, has whole chapters about the nature of the soul or what makes something a sin etc. I don't think it is an age thing, as I have read all three of these in this calendar year!
I agree that one reason to read classics is to get a " a glimpse into a society that is long gone and but dimly understood by most of us and the politics, religion and mores of those times are often illuminated by these conversations." However, I am just finding that this glimpse of Russia's religious society which is being shown to me is not much to my taste. I much preferred Anna Karenina or even War and Peace, which show the Russian society & military & farmers and not the religious aspects.
So my answer to "what's the difference?" is that these each showed a different society, and that this one is showing me a society in which I don't have much in common and am not tremendously interested in. The plot about the family is the best part, but even that I am not loving as all the family except Alexi are unpleasant. I am not hating this & will continue reading it, but that is my feeling right now (about halfway through).
Just finished the first part-even though I agree with the people saying that the discussions on religion are too dense and complicated, I enjoy the rest of the book immensely (especially the various characters that Dostoevsky creates). I will continue with it but I have a feeling that it will go on rather slowly.
David wrote: "Ok, I am getting confused. When we read "Middlemarch" and then "Persuasion", I thought that there was just as much preachy dialog as we are seeing now in @The Brothers Karanaziv but.I don't rememb..."I am not re-reading it this time around so my memory might be inaccurate, but I wonder whether the difference between the sections that are religion- themed, is that with Dostoyevsky they are much more philosophical and theosophical, whereas Eliot and Austen (I also remember quite a bit of religious themed passages with them) are stating more than they are asking. In fact I always felt that Austen and Eliot assume for the reader to share their religious believes, whereas I am unsure about D. doing the same.
I agree with Jenny and Leslie about the differences (I've read several books by Austen, but not Persuasion).But the chapters about Ivan's speech were impressive and I don't find them too complicated. :)
I think that Dostoevskij wants also to focus not only on the specific Russian society but more on being human in general (the variety of characters and how they represent a precise attitude seems exemplar in this case) so philosophy and religion are strictly related. :)
A tip of the hat and thanks to Anastasia and Jenny: good answers to my not so good question. And my apologies to anyone who might have found my question offensive.I say that because right after I asked it, I was ambling down a hallway in the mansion that is The Brothers K, and the Dostoyevsky that I had expected from the first suddenly popped out of a closet. I am closing in on halfway through now and the theological thickets are thicker and MUCH more tangled and the terrain is darker.
I am still loving this book, but now I see why some of it can be off-putting to some.
Jenny, I believe you are correct about the theology. Austen and Eliot seem to assume that the theology of their day is the norm and most everybody approves. But for Dostoyevsky, there are no answers: everything is in question.
I am glad I asked: I enjoyed all if your answers.
One thought that kept coming to me regarding Fyodor'd death, is that Dostoyevsky would have had to write a different novel nowadays, what with blood tests and fingerprinting.
All About Books
Books mentioned in this topic
The Ones Who Walk Away from Omelas (other topics)Paradise Lost (other topics)
If you feel you need a bit of supporting reading material there's help in sight with sparknotes here which also has a list of characters which, as I remember comes in very handy at times with the amount of characters involved and the different ways of spelling used.
Enjoy!!