Time Travel discussion
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Man in the Empty Suit: January & February 2017
Sounds like a fun read. I'll look for a copy. I seem to recall hearing about the title before, didn't read or know the synopsis until seeing this discussion.
Reading it at the minute, it's interesting and I want to see how it pans out but it's so annoying a read. I'll keep at though.
The rules and laws of time travel that I've come to accept in my years of reading don't seem to apply in this book.
Hi, this is my first post/comment so I hope it's appeared in the right place. I'd love to know what are the rules of time travel. I've recently received two reviews for my book The Backward Time Traveler, that mentioned it wasn't really a time travel book.
All TT novels have a device to hurl the protagonist back in time. Some use machines, some rely on lightning strikes, others, like S King, simply make their protagonist walk through a mysterious door.
All I did was to use out-of-the-techniques to allow the protagonists' consciousness to float away (there is no time on the astral plane) and channel into the bodies of a couple of Sioux and pass themselves off as locals living 200 years ago. Fifty percent of the book is set in the past with a modern POV. Sounds like time travel to me.
Have I broken an unspoken rule?
I think each author sets up his/her own rules when they write a book, and part of the fun of reading them are to figure out those rules. I prefer Time travel books where there is travel back and forth, not just a one-way trip through time. How the main characters knowledge of the past or future affects their actions in the past/future adds to my enjoyment.
But this is well-marked as a discussion about a specific book, Man in the Empty Suit, and so you are clearly in the wrong place. I'd suggest you try again, but you got good answers to your question, so never mind. (Imo.)
Steven wrote: "Reading it at the minute, it's interesting and I want to see how it pans out but it's so annoying a read. I'll keep at though."How's it going? Have you finished yet?
I just finished it. Stick with it. Despite the confusion an number of versions, the book stays interesting all the way through. I kept trying to pay attention to guns and bullets but could not. This is a 4 star book for me.
Isn't it all the confusing mental gymnastics the reader must go through that make this book so good.
I like the nicknames he gives his other selves (The Suit, The Nose, Seventy, The Savior, Screwdriver). It is easier to keep track that way. You know exactly who he is talking about when he says The Nose.
Yes, the nicknames means reconstruction is at least possible, the thing is it is the same party but untethering means that it is not- or maybe it is- something we can argue for or against. It is a five star book for me, at least in this version of our conversation.
Just got my copy from an Ebay BIN ("Buy It Now" fixed price "auction" for those who don't Ebay) Will start reading it soon.
Afraid it's about a three star out of five book for me. The writing style is good and I get what was going on but there were too many logical mistakes. I tend to put myself in the place of the protagonist and there were too many times I found myself saying why don't you do this or I wouldn't do that etc. I did finish it but by the end I didn't really care what happened to the characters, the exception was Phil. Worth a read.
Thank you Steven. I have been wavering over whether to get this, as it doesn't really appeal but I do like to participate in BotM reads... but I need to care about or at least respect the characters, so, I guess I'll pass.
Must admit, I too look forward to participating in the BotM reads, but I was put off of reading this by the low average rating of 3.1 on Goodreads.Like IMDB (don't bother with a film under about 7 as a general rule), I have found that if a book scores below 3.5, the chances of me finding it a good read are clearly much reduced, even though there will always be exceptions.
I have still enjoyed keeping an eye on this thread to see what others have made of it, but I have been left with the impression that it wouldn't have been for me.
Looking at the rating, I was surprised this came top of the list, but that's democratic processes for you - every know and again you don't get the result you were expecting...!
Dean wrote: "Must admit, I too look forward to participating in the BotM reads, but I was put off of reading this by the low average rating of 3.1 on Goodreads.Like IMDB (don't bother with a film under about ..."
Agreed! All of it. Though I am reading this and almost finished (I wanted to keep my promise to participate in the group more). It looks like a three star probably. The story holds enough interest and suspense for me, I just don't overly care about the characters.
I also agree with Dean---Didn't like the main character right from page one (reminded me of some one I knew)--Don't really understand how it got selected - but majority rules..Might be I'm getting too old to try and follow all the twists and turns etc. Would rather just read for pleasure than mental exercise when it comes to leisure reading as opposed to an effort at gaining knowledge of astronomy, physics or something along those lines...Didn't even get to page 100 before I gave up-so it would be unfair for me to give a rating-suffice to say-it certainly didn't appeal to me...
Sorry, I know I'm super late to the discussion. Been a crazy busy month. Was able to get this on Audible with a credit. Sounds like a good book - can't want to start listening!
G. wrote: "Sorry, I know I'm super late to the discussion. Been a crazy busy month. Was able to get this on Audible with a credit. Sounds like a good book - can't want to start listening!"Yeah! I hope you enjoy it and don't forget to come back and tell us what you thought.
Take notes while you are listening, it is a really tough one to follow on audio.
Currently at 58%I'm liking it.
In the story arc I am at what I would call a plot twist. Trying not to give away any spoilers. I'll just say I've met Phil and his daughter.
CaptKirk42 Classic Whovian wrote: "I'll just say I've met Phil and his daughter."Yes, that explains a lot.
Finished it last night (02 Feb 2017). Overall I liked it. Thought the ending was a bit anti-climatic. Wasn't expecting anything specific if at all, but it left me wanting just a little bit more. Maybe I wanted it to go a different direction. Oh well I guess I was "untethered" from it.
Are people still reading this? I wanted to add a few comments and I don't want to reveal any plot to other readers still reading.
Just use the spoiler tags. If you don't know how, just click on the '(some HTML is ok)' link in the right corner of the comment box.
Thanks for the tip Nancy, I use an iPad app to view the group posts and the spoiler setting past me by.(view spoiler)
I never use the app and I always use my iPad. I prefer using the browser.I never thought about that. He is selfish and egotistical which is the problem and probably why (view spoiler)
About a quarter of the way through this. Really wanting to like it. Anyone else with this same issue?
Mod
It looks like more of our group members are rating this in the 2-star to 3-star range than higher: https://www.goodreads.com/group/show_.... And that's a shame for a book that sounded interesting to so many people. It was the clear winner of our voting. However, it only had a 3-star rating on GoodReads in the first place.
A lot of members marked it as to-read but haven't read it.
Mod
That's usually the case! I think they often wait to see what others think of it first before committing to buy or borrow it. Or they're just full of good intentions. ;)
I think it's kind of funny to look at the little inset graph of ratings next to star ratings on GoodReads. The ratings for this book clearly make it look like the graph is giving this book the middle finger. Next month's book is more top-heavy with higher ratings, so the graph does not. I'm feeling far more excited about next month's read.
Still, looking on the bright side, it's good to know that as a general rule we can trust the Goodreads score to indicate whether a book is worth reading!I'm increasingly curious on how people decide on whether to finish a book they are clearly not enjoying. It seems most people do this and I hate not finishing a book, so usually carry on regardless (and kick myself when it didn't improve). But in a world where we will only find time to read a fraction of the books we would really enjoy, wouldn't it just make sense to give up and start another book? Sorry, I know this is off topic, but some of the comments here brought this thought back. Still, as good a reason as any to drink wine!
Mod
Absolutely. I find myself being willing to abandon far more books than I used to.
There's a t-shirt for this idea: https://www.lookhuman.com/design/6152...
Oh, I liked the T-shirt that says " I like to party, and by party I mean Read Books"
Mod
I concur.
I liked it, didn't Love it, but liked it. I felt it was a 3.5-4 star so I gave it a 4. It ended odd for me. Felt like it just sort of stopped. A few chapters from the end I started feeling like it would have one of those "Star Trek" endings. This is a reference to the Star Trek TV series more specifically the Next Generation, where within the last 15 minutes of the episode the crew (Usually "the boy" Wesley Crusher") would come up with the save their butts solution.I have a theory about Phil. I'll put it in spoilers
(view spoiler)
If that is so, then wouldn't he recognize his younger self? Plus he saw himself at 70 and knows what he looks like at that age so wouldn't he recognize himself after the age of 70?
Mod
Also, Lily is re-enacting the life of Sarah who was never a child of our hero. I think he would remember having a child named Sarah. Also, I didn't get the feeling that Phil is elderly even if he is constantly "dying".
My Review of The Man in the Empty SuitI was disappointed with The Man in the Empty Suit for not being the science fiction mystery that I expected. So I reimagined it as one. Read my plot outline that re-envisions the book as a time travel whodoneit under Reviews in the Extras section of my web site nedhuston.com. It explains tethering, time and time travel and reveals who the murderer is, and how, where and why the crime was committed.
I, like many other readers in this forum, would like to award this novel three stars. Yet I find myself advocating for a fourth instead.
Let me explain why:
Only 3 stars because the novel disappointed me.
4 stars because it also did not disappoint me.
Why did it disappoint me? Because The Man in the Empty Suit is not a science fiction novel. It is not a mystery novel either. I was almost half way through it before I realized these two facts. I had to slam on my mental brakes and start all over again.
The Man in the Empty Suit is a surrealistic character study. And it is a good one. As Ferrell himself expresses it, “For me the important part was the emotional journey he was going on as opposed to the ins and outs and technicalities of time travel.” Ferrell succeeds in what he was trying to do. I am taken on an emotional journey in a mood piece that is remarkably evocative and consistent. Yes, I don’t like the main character, but I am not supposed to, not until late in the novel. Both thematically and metaphorically the novel works. The character is well drawn and develops in a believable progression. The scenes of the novel are full of tension. I enjoyed it.
It also disappointed me.
I thought I was reading a science fiction mystery, the ultimate whodoneit wherein the protagonist is not only the murderer and victim by also the detective who solves the crime, told against a backdrop of time travel.
But this is not a science fiction novel. Ultimately, Ferrell has no theory of time, no explanation of tethering, no explanation of the time machines, time, or the logistics of a tethered multi-consciousness. It can’t have any of these because surrealism is an emotional world that lacks intellectual baggage. A work of surrealism cannot be explained. It is a dream, a poem in prose, a character groping in the dark. To shine light upon that darkness would destroy it.
This novel has more in common with Franz Kafka than H. G. Wells. Ferrell’s ambitions are literary. He is not trying to establish a spot in the science fiction time travel pantheon. He would rather be taken seriously.
This novel is also not a mystery. It is not a whodoneit. Ferrell doesn’t care who committed the murders or why. He is tracing the emotional experience of a character. That experience is not logical; it does not make sense. The world of this character cannot be explained, only felt. To explain it would be to destroy it, to ruin the surrealistic mood, undermine the novel’s theme, and violate the conventions of its genre.
You cannot have it both ways.
This novel is either surrealism or a science fiction mystery. It cannot be both—they are inimical to each other. Ferrell chooses surrealism. Good for him—he chooses what he wants and sticks to it. In the process he disappoints a lot of readers, me included.
He also does not disappoint me. I love surrealism. I love the works of Kafka, the art of Dali, the films of Brunuel. I enjoyed this book for what it is. This is a memorable character in a memorable story. It will stick with me.
But it also disappointed me because I am a fan of both science fiction and mystery novels. I thought I was reading a science fiction mystery novel. I was nearly half way through when I realized, “There isn’t going to be any solution to this crime. None of the science fiction elements are going to be explained or reconciled. This story is nonsensical.”
Okay, I get it. I like the works of Lewis Carroll and Gabriel Garcia Marquez. I appreciate poetry. Not everything has to make sense. But here I am like a diner in a restaurant who’s ordered a steak and been served lasagna instead.
I love lasagna. It’s a four star lasagna, and I thoroughly enjoyed it. But where’s my steak? I had my appetite whetted for a steak.
Disappointment.
It’s difficult to switch gears and look at a book through a different lens when you’re already halfway to the end. It was a letdown to know I’d invested in a story that doesn’t exist. If I didn’t like surrealism, I would have quit reading there. The book takes a hard left turn, and it’s like starting over. I had to adjust all of my expectations and read the book differently.
So how can I give Ferrell’s book a four star review? Granted, it is a real achievement. It works as a surrealistic character study. I liked it. Ferrell’s hard work and accomplishment deserve recognition. How can I fault it for not being what it can’t be?
The novel has a lot to recommend it. Alcoholism as a party only you and your past selves are invited to (even though you don’t really like yourself) is a great metaphor. The decay of the Boltzmann Hotel and New York City itself is a great metaphor for what has happened to the protagonist’s life. The book is full of gems. The protagonist invents a time machine but does nothing constructive with it but drink and drive.
Still, how can I get over my disappointment with the book? I feel I was promised one thing and given another, the old switcheroo. Surely Ferrell deserves to be dinged for that.
I recommend Ferrell’s novel as a work of surrealism. It’s not absurdist. It really does come to something in the end. But what about the science fiction mystery I was hoping for?
Well, maybe I can do something about that. I’ve written a plot outline, reimagining this novel as a time travel mystery. I explain time, tethering, and time travel, and I reveal who the murderer is, and how, where, and why the murder was committed. I have in effect rewritten this to be the novel I had hoped for in my head—and since doing that I no longer feel disappointed.
I hope Sean Ferrell and you the reader of this can forgive me for my grandiosity. I plead guilty to overarching ambition and throw myself on the mercy of the court. But Humbert-like I add, “my plot outline of the reimagined Man in the Empty Suit is under ‘Reviews’ in the ‘Extras’ section of my web site nedhuston.com.”
I read once that people should not review books in a genre they dislike. People who hate science fiction should not review a science fiction novel. They will get it wrong and will not do it justice. Similarly, if you do not like surrealism, should you post a review of The Man in the Empty Suit on Goodreads? If you are disappointed with the book because you dislike its genre, because it didn’t fit the genre you hoped it to be, is giving it a poor review really fair? Are you giving Ferrell his due?
Read my plot outline of a reimagined version of the novel (on nedhuston.com) and see if it changes your mind. I feel much better about the book now that my desire for the ultimate science fiction whodoneit has been met. Maybe you will too.
Mod
I like your take on it. So, here we have a surrealist time travel novel. If explained that way from the beginning, perhaps more of us would have liked it because our expectations would have been different. I used to read and enjoy a lot of more surrealist works that I simply labeled as "bizarre" fiction. I think I've lost my appetite for them over the years, though. lf I would have known that this was in such a category, I probably would have just skipped it.
If you are disappointed with the book because you dislike its genre, because it didn’t fit the genre you hoped it to be, is giving it a poor review really fair?
When I rate a book, it's based on whether or not I enjoyed it even if I see that it might otherwise have merit. I can rate a book 2 stars (as I did this one) and still see that it has worth as a novel. I gave the same rating to Watership Down because it was absolutely not my cup of tea as I do not usually enjoy anthropomorphic children's fiction. But that doesn't mean that I think it's not a worthy piece of literature. This weekend, I finished Breakfast at Tiffany's which I adored and gave 5 stars, but other people in my reading group gave it 2 stars because they hated the character of Holly Golightly. I can understand that. I can see how they could loathe her character and not see beyond that feeling to give it a higher rating. And that's kind of how I feel about the protagonist in this story. I loathe him. And that loathing for the main character coupled with a story that never really resolves itself really just equals a 2-star rating for me. But as a piece of literature, I will acquiesce to give it at least 4 stars in that category.
Great review Ned. Usually when I finally get to a book on my to read list, I don't go back and read the synopsis. That way I have no clue what I am reading so I don't have expectations of what I think I'll be reading. If that makes sense! That way I don't assume I'm reading sci fi because the blurb hinted that it was and I'm not disappointed when it's not.
Mod
The same here. I like to be surprised. I rarely do more than scan a book synopsis so as to avoid spoilers.
Even if I don't like a book (assuming the reason was it just wasn't for me or my type of book) I will rate it a three stars. Just because the book isn't my style doesn't mean it's a two star book. Even books I enjoy but I think are more on the average side will get three stars. A one or two star book is something that is horrible in every way and no one should read it.
Amy: I was going to respond to you privately, but heck why not here? I realized the reason I'm not able to see the spoilers is because I've been reading people's posts in my e-mail offline. I had to go to the Goodreads site searching for a "Spoilers" section to realize you have to read posts online to see the spoilers.Now I've read all parts of all posts. It hasn't really changed anything, but I have realized I wish I had responded earlier. Nancy and Heather both observed that there is only one party in The Man with the Empty Suit. That was careful, insightful reading! And I liked the way you handled CaptKirk42's idea about Phil. But no one came up with the idea that maybe Lily is the protagonist after a sex change. After all, he's the only invited guest to the party. It's not a good idea, but it's an idea.
Where are the ideas? I thought a bunch of writers would have more to say. Only about a dozen people read the book. I think I equalled their output of comments single-handedly (I have a trailer of ideas hooked up to my circus wagon). It's all P. K. Dick's divine invasion where I live. I enjoyed your witticism about the t-shirt, by the way.
I have not read Breakfast at Tiffany's, but my wife has read it and loves it, and she's nearly always right and has a lot of followers on Goodreads. But I have read The Swans of Fifth Avenue, and I recommend it whole-heartedly. It's a novel that is speculative fiction without being science fiction. If you're a Truman Capote fan, I would call this a must read. My wife didn't like the tone, however.
I'm heartened by the response to my post. I didn't think anyone was still reading this thread of the discussion this late. Now I have to get back to publishing my novel on multiple platforms, getting Book 3 ready for my critique group and looking for beta readers for Book 2. I also need to get back to loving my students. I teach college writing at California State University here in Monterey Bay. My students include black, white, Asian, but mainly hispanics. They're the people the Republicans would like to marginalize (you only have to be a student to be in that category), and I tell them Trump learned all he knows from Robert Ringer but he's skipped Ringer's most important rule:
Reality is not the way you wish things to be nor the way they appear to be but the way they actually are. Acknowledge the situation as it is and use it to your benefit or it will automatically work AGAINST you.
My wife and I are still cleaning up from our annual Oscar Party, which is the blowout of the year. By the way, the Oscar nominated film of the year is TIMECODE (it's a short). God, I wish I'd written that. I'm a sucker for cleverness.
Now I have to get to my many schemes. One of my latest (don't tell anyone) is to create a second web site. I have my author's site, but I also want to have a time travel site. Not a site about time travel, a site where you do time travel. I've already bought the domain name ridethetimemachine.com.
Ta ta.
Yours,
Dr. Chicago
I'd like to see you parse that allusion!
One thing about Lily bothers me. When he is at the party when he is 39 and he finds the pin on the floor (the version of himself that got killed in the elevator lost his pin) and puts it on and when Lily sees him with it she makes a comment that it the wrong time or something similar. How does she know what the pin is and what it's for etc?
Mod
Nancy, that is a good point. I think Lily knows because she's been here before, but I agree it's odd because she doesn't have a time machine, so how could she make multiple trips to the party? I could rationalize it with speculation about other selves bringing her, but there's no evidence of that in the text. I think it's another example of Ferrell throwing in a tantalizing detail without knowing its significance beforehand. He's more interested in creating a mood than having the details add up.
Time Travel
Books mentioned in this topic
Last Year (other topics)My Two Souths: Blending the Flavors of India into a Southern Kitchen (other topics)
Man in the Empty Suit (other topics)
Good to know about the time-machine. So I guess he's a narcissistic genius. ;)