The Folly Irregulars discussion
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Lesley--spoilers through current book (whatever that book is!)
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carol.
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Dec 15, 2016 04:14PM
Let's talk. I have no idea how to keep this topic spoiler-free, however.
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I don't think we can talk about Leslie while keeping it spoiler-free at the same time--I know I can't and I'm not even through Hanging Tree yet.
I'd love to talk about Leslie, but I'm only up to book 3, and I don't know how those who've read further can avoid spoiling.
I think for this to work as a Leslie thread, it needs to be up to the current book, whatever that book is at this moment it time. So please stop back when you finish Hanging Tree!
Finished! Finally. Let's talk Leslie.Btw is it Leslie or Lesley?
I was too lazy to get up to check. I've been binge-listening, not reading :D
So, speaking of, I just finished re-listening to Broken Homes, which takes place at Skygarden, and if we remember, finishes with Peter 'riding' the Faceless Man down from the tower and handcuffing him. At which point the FM says, "its time to make a choice" and Peter ends up tasered. It was pretty much a teaser that Peter didn't see Lesley, but the fact that she's absent seems pretty conclusive. I think The Hanging Tree scenes make it sound like she's pretty okay with her choices.
Carol. wrote: "So, speaking of, I just finished re-listening to Broken Homes, which takes place at Skygarden, and if we remember, finishes with Peter 'riding' the Faceless Man down from the tower and handcuffing ..."Seems to me so as well.
I never really thought about what must've been going through Lesley's mind that led her to choose the FM over the Folly. But plot-wise, I thought it was a clever way for Ben Aaronovitch to increase tension and, at the same time, temporarily write off a potential main character without having it look like he was trying to get rid of her.
I was kind of bothered by it a bit, because she's so smart and clever in the first couple books. Peter knows she's a better copper, and much is made of her being 'the golden girl' in Rivers of London. I didn't think the face issue would have changed her whole personality into wanting to go 'to the dark side,' but now that I'm re-reading, I can see where there were hints of her frustration, both with her loss of status and the general complexity of policing the magical world. Peter describes her as rather black and white in her thinking in a couple of cases.
Carol. wrote: "I was kind of bothered by it a bit, because she's so smart and clever in the first couple books. Peter knows she's a better copper, and much is made of her being 'the golden girl' in Rivers of Lond..."I think here's the biggest "hook" for reader in such situation - the more you get to like her, the bigger the pity of her being on the "dark side". Aaronovitch is a very clever writer, needless to say. :)
I haven't read all the books yet, starting Broken Holmes tomorrow but I accidentally glimpsed the end and Lesleys "betrayal" and that brought me back to the scene at the end of Moon over Soho. Lesley could suddenly make a werelight there and even then I was wondering where she got that from. I mean I took Peter ages to master that and he always insisted that you would need an other practitioner to show you a few times so you could get the feel for the forma. So maybe she was in contact with the Faceless Man even then, maybe without realizing who he was. And maybe she doesn't even realize how evil he is. Unlike Peter she never saw that cabinet of horrors the Faceless Man had down in that club.
Also, he has shown a talent to reach desparate people as he demonstrated with the Jazz Vampires. It was Peters connection to Simone that "saved" them, Cherie and most of all Peggy where inclined to join him. Maybe there's magic involved or maybe just psychological knowledge.
And come to think of it: Is it not possible that Nightingale had known or at least suspected that Lesley must have had some contact with another practioner/the Faceless Man to learn that lux forma? He of all people should know that it is highly unlikely if not outright impossible to learn magic on our own. If only for the danger of overdoing it and severly crippling yourself or dying in the process. So maybe in taking her on as an appentice he tried to keep her close to watch her and try to show her another way.
I agree with you re Broken Homes - it was a bit too slow for me as well ;)I like your idea about Lesley having been approached by the Faceless Man - it makes so much sense!! At the time that I read about her making a werelight, I just thought she was very very clever, it didn't occur to me at all that she could have been corrupted..... there tends to be quite long gaps between books, so it's not something that was fresh in my mind as I read BH...... but I think you're onto something, defo:)
Miriam--interesting point about Leslie. I never even considered that she might be working with the Faceless Man behind the scenes that long. My take is that Leslie in Rivers of London basically does everything better than Peter. She's better at being a copper, better at spotting trouble, better at observing her surroundings and even better at taking people down. So it seemed rather natural to me that she would be able to figure out how to do a werelight on her own, after watching Peter do it (remember that he shows her as soon as he can do it). But the possibility that it may have been The Faceless Man is intriguing. I also thought that it was because of the magic Punch opened Leslie up to--she got a way in to access magic easier, like the channels to use it were already opened and used. I don't want to spoil things--hmm, I think this part was in Whispers Underground-- (view spoiler)
Miriam: I'm seconding what Carol. said. I, too, thought Leslie's ability with magic was because she's better at so much more than Peter, and what the magic did to her with Punch's possession of her. It's intriguing to ponder your possibility though....
Lata wrote: "Miriam: I'm seconding what Carol. said. I, too, thought Leslie's ability with magic was because she's better at so much more than Peter, and what the magic did to her with Punch's possession of her..."Hm, you are right, that she was much better than Peter in most things, even he himself said so, but there was always one thing, that Peter was better at: vestigia
It was hinted from the beginning, when Lesley always said Peter was to easily distracted to be a good copper and in Moon Over Soho Peter in that club where he found Peggy and walked into that lacuna he remarked that Lesley would have walked right through it without realizing it for what it was. And then somewhere in that ghost scene at the beginning of Whispers Under Ground Peter said he was much better in spotting vestigia than Lesley and not only because he had been an apprentice for almost a year longer than her. And from what I understand of the "Newtonian Magic" being able to sense vestigia is the key ability.
And Peter did not explained to Lesley how you learn magic, he never talked about forma and that stuff, and having to "feel" them in your mind, he just showed her the werelight twice.
Zach never specified what he meant by "made different". He could just have meant the possion by the Riot/Pyke-Spirit. I'm very sure a magic event like that would leave an imprint on a person. Not vestigium obviously, because Peter never mentioned something like that, but maybe something like the "smell" Tyburn describe as her way to identify Peter as a wizard.
But then, having been changed by magic doesn't mean she could not have been in contact with the Faceless Man for some time now. Maybe it was a bit of both, for I'm pretty sure the Faceless Man new about the Riot/Pyke-Spirit case and it's outcome. So maybe he realized that the possession had changed something in Lesley, had opened her at least a bit towards magic and then he approached her.
And I think, somehow Lesley envied Peter right from the start. I mean she was, as you have observed the "golden girl", DCI Seawoll, one of the most respected DCIs in the Met took an interest in her, decided to take her under his wing, she was on the first step of a really promising career in the Murder Team and Peter at that point seemed destined to go to the Case Progression Unit, was not believed to be a "real" copper by their superiors. And than he did this totally mad ghost hunting stunt, met Nightingale and suddelny he's the one with the interesting work, and all because of that one character trait Lesley always said made him a bad copper.
And then in the end the magic takes averything she had away from her and more. Her whole life, everything the was, was falling appart - quite literally. I think that can make a person bitter and angry and vulnerable to the darker ways in life.
Am I making any sense here? Sometimes I'm not sure about my wording since English is not my native language. But I hope you understand what I wanted to say..
Carol. wrote: "I can see where there were hints of her frustration, both with her loss of status and the general complexity of policing the magical world. Peter describes her as rather black and white in her thinking in a couple of cases."I understand now what you mean. I just read that scene with Effra, Oberon, Nicky and that tree nymph Sky where Peter said, that Lesley would have gone up into his face for his careful negotiating. I think Lesley has way more problems with all that unspoken "agreements" than Peter.
It seems that to Lesley theres the law and you have to follow it by the letter regardless who or what you are, while Peter can accept, that it is difficult to apply the law to someone like Mama Thames or Sky. He could accept Oberons argument about "the spirit of the Law" with which I guess Lesley would have had some problems.
On the other hand, the more I think about I: Lesley behaves rather strange in some instances, giving Peter a rain check when he askes her to come on some investigations, being really sarcastic, almost cynical at times, etc. It might be because the Faceless Man influences her more, or, maybe she's nursing a plan to take hin down on her own. It was her, who came up with that bait sceme and from the way she regards herself as a copper - she says she's a pretty amazing copper at some point in RoL - she might think she's capable of outwitting him and taking him down on her own.
Miriam! Just thinking of you a couple days ago--Chapter 6 in The Hanging Tree. Don't want to forget. :)Hmm, good point about Leslie's attitude change. Now that I think about it, you are absolutely right. In the first book, she's cheerful, ambitious and basically all-around focused. In Broken Homes we see a very different Leslie--spoiler for the book (view spoiler)
Is it just me, or is Lesley become a kind of "racist" in Broken Homes and later on? It struck me kind of odd that she obvious was way more concerned about the fact that someone offed that chainsaw guy than she was about Sky's death. And how she almost immediately blamed Nicky.
And in Foxeglove Summer when she texts Peter she blames the "fae" and when Peter objects she only anserwed "Who else" as if commiting criminal acts is the only way "fae" interact with humans. And that at least she should know better - even though you are right, Carol, her motiv in Broken Holmes really sounded selfish.
To me it sounds as if she is incrediblly afraid of all those supernatural creatures and her motiv the learn magic was mostly to protect herself and other humans against "the monsters". And when she learned that the Folly is more about agreements and other "fuzzy stuff" she is disappointed and turns to the Faceless Man (Beside the fact that her promises her her face back). Honestly, in that she somehow reminded me of our (Germany) minster of finance Wolfgang Schäuble. Yeah, call me odd, but still.
Really good points about Leslie being anti-fae--I haven't been through Foxglove Summer as much as I have the other books, so I don't remember all the texts. Her motives are so mysterious to us, filtered partly through Peter and his ambivalence. I do like the way in Foxglove where he doesn't mess around with his allegiance to Nightingale/the Folly/the police.There is that piece in Broken Homes where she is going out to a bar or two with Zach, so it makes one wonder. But then, we presume the Faceless Man is human, so maybe that's why she ends up aligning even more with him then with the demi-monde who 'just don't care' what she looks like.
Just wanna say, I'm glad I didn't finish reading this thread too early and I wasn't been spoiled concerning Leslie! But it is marked as such, so people are warned :)
Carol. wrote: "In Broken Homes we see a very different Leslie--spoiler for the book..."Also in The Hanging Tree when we find out that (view spoiler)
Danielle wrote: "Also, what do you think about Peter's hypothesis at the end of The Hanging Tree, [spoilers removed]"I think his thoughs have some merit. What makes Leslie special is her connection to Mr. Punch. And the fact that she "learns" magic on a rather accelerated rate seems to confirm that. I think when Peter said Leslie was "picking up" magic he meant that rather literally. The FM seems somehow obsessed with collecting and storing magic (That was basically his game in "Broken Homes") and that was an ability Mr. has deomstrated repeatedly through the first book. And I think the fact that there where no vestigia at the scene of the attack on Lady Ty and her daughter where some really heavy duty magic was thrown around by several parties illustrates that.
A fact, by the way, that makes Leslie a rather useful took with regards to magical cleanup.
Miriam wrote: "Is it just me, or is Lesley become a kind of "racist" in Broken Homes and later on? "You know, I am re-listening to Whispers Underground, the book that opens with Peter and Leslie stopping at Abigail's house for the first time to meet her 'ghost.' And interestingly, Leslie is all over Peter to report Abigail's family to 'Child Services' because Abigail won't let them in to the apartment, she explores 'unsafe' areas on her own looking for steam engines, and her winter coat is too small.
Actually, Leslie sounds super-judgemental in this one and even sort-of accuses Peter of not wanting to do anything bc she's sort-of family. I don't see what Peter is supposed to act on, but I think it's interesting in retrospect that she isn't being flexible or understanding with the constituents.
That scene never sat well with me. But then neither has the character of Leslie. Even in book one I felt she was more than a little bit of a snob and a bigot.
Carol. wrote: "Miriam wrote: "Is it just me, or is Lesley become a kind of "racist" in Broken Homes and later on? "You know, I am re-listening to Whispers Underground, the book that opens with Peter and Leslie ..."
I forgot about how Leslie was all over Peter about Abigail. (I didn't think there was anything worrisome about Abigail's family situation.)
I do remember that Leslie did come off as not as flexible as Peter about anyone they encountered while policing.
Yes, it's very interesting to be re-reading and thinking about the overall arcs. I know Ben says he doesn't 'plan ahead' in any detailed way, but for someone who doesn't plan ahead, there sure is an organic development much of the time!Agree, Margaret-I just didn't remember it later and the signs that she was not doing well.
Lata, 'not as flexible' is a good way to describe it.
Yeah. Ben was squawking the other day on Twitter that one of his characters has decided that why they are in the books isn't why he put them in the books!
Leslie sees everything in black and white. She isn't even prepared to admit that gray exists. That's not a healthy coping mechanism for anyone, least of all a cop.She also struck me as selfish. It was all about how things affected her. No-one else. So excited about going to the the murder squad at Belgravia, and not really caring that Peter was being posted as little more than a data entry operator.
Lata wrote: "Character out of control!"Well and truly, I think. He hashtagged the post #Ohshit. :D
I saw Leslie's happiness at her Murder squad posting as, "I got picked! And it's not a crap posting. In fact, it's a wonderful new job! And I did it! All my hard work paid off!" Instead of, "Neener, neener, Peter! You've got a shite post!"
You know what I would like to see? Seawoll having to deal with Lesley. His golden girl who broke her oath and attacked another officer.
Margaret wrote: "So excited about going to the the murder squad at Belgravia, and not really caring that Peter was being posted as little more than a data entry operator."I read / heard that part differently. Leslie didn't want to tell him where she was assigned as it would "piss you off" i.e. didn't want to go on about a plum posting when he got dudded into the Crime Progression Unit performing a valuable role.
though now i'll have to rethink Leslie entirely as i quite shallowly assumed she changed allegiance based on her injuries. Leslie did ask Peter about healing the damage - "what magic can do, magic can undo" [Moon over Soho] to which Peter says it not possible but acknowledges that neither he or Nightingale know everything.
so if when the Faceless Man offers a new face with the implicit suggestion that he might know more than the Folly, then that has to be pretty tempting.
John, to me it was apparent in the first book that Leslie would not be considered suitable to be a wizard. She lacks an inquiring mind. Peter wants to know anything and everything. He has a thirst for all sorts of knowledge. Leslie chides him for reading placques when they're on patrol. It's Peter's very desire to know that makes Nightingale first have him seconded to the Folly and then take him on as an apprentice.
Margaret--I wonder about Leslie not being suitable. I always had the impression that her joining the Folly was more a consequence of the "Agreement." I recall the Chief saying an apprentice was fairly unusual and not in the argreement or something along those lines. Today, I just heard the part in Whispers Underground where Seawoll asks Peter if Leslie's "become one of you lot" or some such. Peter answers to the effect that she's on 'indefinite medical leave.' So as I read, I always had the feeling that she was suitable--especially when she gets to surpassing Peter in some skills--but that she became very unhappy with the policing of the Fae and the ambiguity of enforcement in the Fae community.
I think I agree with John, that the opportunity to 'get her face back' had to be a huge draw, though it always made me feel she was a bit shallow/selfish since she had a community that accepted her. As I re-read, I've definitely also started to think there was a huge philosophical problem for her as she learned more.
i thought it was simply because Peter admitted he was looking for a ghost i.e. open to the uncanny aka vestigia etc.lacking an inquiring mind simply means that Lesile isn't a Ravenclaw style wizard...sorry I've got the interview at the end on Hanging Tree between Kobna and Ben on my mind, hence mashup of Potter & Grant :)
Haha! Funny how people really grab on to Potter as a wizarding reference. Always cracks me up when Ben has Peter do it.
I got the impression that Leslie joined the Folly because there was no way in Hell Nightingale was going to let an untrained potential wizard run loose. That was asking for disaster. As far as Nightingale is concerned there is only the Folly. Anyone else is an unlicenced practitioner in his book. At least, that's how he was in the first few books. His attitude has changed a lot. Peter's dragged him into the 21st century.I agree that the possibility of getting her face back was the deal breaker for Leslie. But, she knew what the Faceless Man was doing, what he was capable of, and that he was clearly NOT in it for altruistic reasons.
By going with him she showed herself as morally ambiguous as he is.
oh yeah, I agree with why Nightingale transferred Leslie into the Folly. all weird bollocks in London is his bailiwick under the various agreements....makes him Gryffindor :)
PMSL. I just can't see Nightingale as Minerva McGonagall.
Carol. wrote: "Haha! Funny how people really grab on to Potter as a wizarding reference. Always cracks me up when Ben has Peter do it."And how annoyed Nightingale gets when Peter refers to Casterbrook as Hogwarts.
I just listened to a part in Whispers Underground where Peter and Leslie are trading Latin lines, and Leslie says one which is one of Nightengale's favorites... and neither Peter nor Leslie have the heart to tell N. that it's also in a Disney movie.
Margaret wrote: "I got the impression that Leslie joined the Folly because there was no way in Hell Nightingale was going to let an untrained potential wizard run loose. That was asking for disaster. As far as Nigh..."I always got a similar impression. And I often thought it also might haven been because Nightingale suspected early on, what Peter put into words in the final scene of Hanging Tree. That Leslie is "picking up magic" in a very literal meaning of the word.
Peter needed - I think - around four month of very hard practice to produce his first werelight and it took him even more time to perfect it. Rivers of London runs over more than half a year and that is the only spell he learns in that book.
But Leslie produces a perfect werelight by the end of Moon over Soho after Peter had shown it to her only twice and never told her what to look for to learn it. (Vestigia, "feeling the fomula", create the shape in your mind, etc.) He most certainly told Nightingale and since Nightingale know and sees much more, than he often let on, Im very certain he decided to have a close look at Leslie and her sudden ability to do magic.
And I concurr with Margret and John that Leslie would neve have been Nightingales first choice for an apprentice. Because she is not curious enough and too ridgid and judgemental in her views of the world. (Which by the way would never make her a good copper, even though she thinks different. She would never rise far in the ranks).
Maybe that, along with the possibility to get back her face was what drew her to Chorley. He offered magic within a very ridgid set of moral beliefs. Like Humans, and most of all "pure British" should rule the magic world, and stuff like that. I always wondered though, if she really does know how far Chorley must have gone to reconstruct her face. From the glimpses we got of his "work" there seems to be no way, he managed that without killing someone.
That scene in the garage also got me thinking that joining Chorley also might have been arrogance on Leslies part. I mean, she kind of lost everything. In Rivers of London, all she's about is how much she wants to be a copper and how good a copper she is. Ans the she gets hurt in the line of duty and suddenly they take everything away from her. Suddenly nobody considers her fit to be a copper any longer and her life's dream just shatters. The way she talked to Peter about him having no clue as usual, made me think that maybe she kind of pulled an unsanctioned undercover stunt to try and bring down Chorley on her own to show everybody that she still is very good at her job and she managed to solve the one big case neither Seawoll nor Nightingale could.
Maybe I'm reading to much into it, but Leslie struck me as a person with a hidden agenda very early on.
Miriam wrote: "Rivers of London runs over more than half a year and that is the only spell he learns in that book."i considered that to be more of comment on Peter's inability to actually focus and by inference Leslie's ability to focus. i recall somewhere that N considers Peter to be quite powerful even after a short period...sorta like an athlete who coasts on natural talent with zero discipline or commitment to training. see all the various student / teacher interactions between the two which essentially boil down to N trying to keep Peter from continually being distracted by his own curiosity
Leslie on the hand has focus...(view spoiler)
Miriam, I agree with your take about how being a good copper was really a big part of Leslie's identity, and she lost her job, her face thanks to the job. I also thought there was a constant arrogance at work in her interactions with Peter because of her focus and ability with the job, versus Peter's "Squirrell!" approach. (Not that I mind Peter's digressions, as my own mind jumps around constantly, and I'm always losing focus :) )I also felt that Faceless Man's magic's for humans attitude and I can fix your face offer were too tantalizing for Leslie to pass by. I knew she did have a problem with the constant grey areas in the Folly's approach versus what she'd have learned and believed were a source of some stress for her.
Okay, I'm loving this discussion, and that there are people around to have it with :) You all are fabulous!Miriam, I really like your thoughts in #46 and would say that reflects the way I currently interpret the situation. In the very first book, on the very first read, I wanted her to be the 'golden girl' as much as Peter and Seawoll did. I think Punch changed her, both in the real, 'life is unfair/magic creatures suck' sense. It was unfortunate, and to me revealed a flaw in her character I didn't see before. I think as the books progressed, we saw more signs of her judgemental interpretation in situations that didn't warrant it. It became clear she was the hard-line police officer who knew the law and expected people to follow it, and believed in her own right to enforce it. I agree that Chorley gave her a belief system that both reinforced her own judgemental mentality and allowed her to make a personal 'agreement' with magic. Also agree that she overlooked "The Island of Dr. Moreau" experiments that led to benefiting her.
Yeah, you'd think she'd have realized that there was a price, I imagine a pretty big price, for the new and improved face that Leslie sports now. Who knows how many people the Faceless Man killed and maimed in the process of developing this powerful magic? (Ok, we definitely know of one woman in Broken Homes, but I'm sure there were more bodies generated.)Interesting the shading Ben's created to Leslie's character, who initially just came off as a competent, driven copper/trainee. I love how this author has his characters evolve, thanks to their experiences.
