Classics and the Western Canon discussion
Plato, Republic - Revisited
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Everyman wrote: "Not for specific comments about the text but for general background and preparatory comments. I'll just start with Simon Blackburn's observation that philosophy is a process, not a product; you s..."
Thank you Everyman for the work you are putting in. Your suggestion above is a good one. If 2 people are reading the book together would The Republic be more understandable if each reader takes 'parts' and make it a real dialogue? I am hoping my 23 year old son will join along with me. I appreciate your efforts on behave of those of us who need a guiding hand in this area.
Here are some simple Wikipedia articles that demonstrate the politically active time in which Plato's Republic is set around.For a description and history of Piraeus where blood was while it changed from a Democracy, to the the Tyranny of the The Thirty, and back to a Democracy during Plato's time and is the location where Republic is set:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piraeus...
A brief history of "The Thirty (Tyrants)" that ruled Athens for about a year after Athens was defeated by Sparta in Peloponnesian War in 404 BCE. Lead by Critias, the Thrity Tyrants executed, murdered, and exiled many Athenians, including the real Polemarchus who we will meet as a character in Book 1. It is thought that the real Socrates being allowed by Critias and The Thirty to stay in Athens despite his refusal to help them arrest another person (per Apology), was a contributing factor to his being condemned to death after the Democracy was restored.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thirty_...
More on Critias. This relative (second cousin or great uncle) of Plato appears in 4 of his other dialogues. There are some that claim Plato's character named Critias may actually be based on the oligarch/tyrant Critias' grandfather, also named Critias.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critias
http://www.iep.utm.edu/critias/
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critias...
More on Polemarchus
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polemar...
David wrote: "Here are some simple Wikipedia articles that demonstrate the politically active time in which Plato's Republic is set around."Good information. Thanks for finding.
It will be valuable, I think, to keep in mind the social and political environment in which Plato wrote, even as simultaneously we consider how the issues raised by Plato are as relevant today as they were then.
I started reading last night and what is happening to me is a constant "dialogue" in my head about the relevance today, especially in view of our recent election. I kept thinking, "What would Plato have said/thought about this?" Am I right in thinking that this is what we are supposed to be doing?Also, I have been reading the Greek history for the time period so it is most fascinating to compare the times of Plato with our times. The perfect example of things changing---or not! I guess the punchline here is that people do not change.
Lynne wrote: "I started reading last night and what is happening to me is a constant "dialogue" in my head about the relevance today, especially in view of our recent election. I kept thinking, "What would Plato have said/thought about this?" Am I right in thinking that this is what we are supposed to be doing?."Among other things, absolutely. The questions Plato raises are eternal. In my opinion, we should think about them both in the context of his times, to understand why he wrote what he did, and in the context of today's times, to better understand our present world and how to live a just life in it.
I'm don't think that discussing specific contemporary figures is a productive use of our time in this group. Let's stick to issues, not personalities, please.
I have deleted several posts which seemed not helpful to a positive discussion. Let's keep the discussion on issues, not on personalities.
Hi.This is a non-topical question but do the group have a 2017-tbr list?
I would like to plan and intertwine it with my other readings.
Regards
Beatrice wrote: "Hi.This is a non-topical question but do the group have a 2017-tbr list?
I would like to plan and intertwine it with my other readings.
Regards"
No. Are you a member of Goodreads groups that do that? None of those to which I belong have a yearly list (except perhaps Brain Pain). The Book Shelf does indicate books that may be considered. Everyman and Thomas may give you more insight than my one syllable response, Beatrice. (Descriptions of the processes this board has used can be found with a bit of browsing, I believe.)
Beatrice wrote: "Hi.This is a non-topical question but do the group have a 2017-tbr list?
I would like to plan and intertwine it with my other readings.
Regards"
Just to elaborate a little bit: The group votes on what we want to read a few weeks before the discussion starts, so there's no way of predicting exactly what we'll be reading more than a few weeks in advance.
Lily wrote: "No. Are you a member of Goodreads groups to do that?..."I am quite new in this GR-group thing, so I guess I misunderstood the way to do it. I am a member of another group in which they have a book planned for every month, but this seems as a very democratic and right way to do it. Thanks!
Thomas wrote: "Just to elaborate a little bit: The group votes on what we want to read a few weeks before the discussion starts, so there's no way of predicting exactly what we'll be reading more than a few weeks in advance."Sounds great. Thank you for your response.
Lily wrote: "Beatrice wrote: "Hi.This is a non-topical question but do the group have a 2017-tbr list?
I would like to plan and intertwine it with my other readings.
Regards"
No. Are you a member of Goodr..."
It is a bit sad. Brain Pain seems to have died. It was a good group.
Anne wrote: "It is a bit sad. Brain Pain seems to have died. It was a good group. ..."A lot of good leadership, thought, and participation went into it. Unfortunately, personally I eventually found it a bit too autocratic for flexible participation. But then, I perhaps can be too iconoclastic and rule defying at times, as much as I respect courtesy, kindness, and compassion.
Beatrice wrote: "...I am quite new in this GR-group thing, so I guess I misunderstood the way to do it...."Welcome, then, Beatrice. I am going through the healing of a painful arm, so have not been doing the background work I usually do before posting, so I hadn't checked your profile. (Still uncertain which of your groups does have a year's calendar, although one seems to have several months.) I hope you find Goodreads participation to provide fun and rewarding experiences. I have been participating in online book groups since about 2007 now (early years were Barnes and Noble) and have found them a rich and fulfilling part of my life. May you find similar satisfactions.
Re: background and/or related topics to The Republic. First, thanks for the links to some of the historic background material. I didn't see what was considered irrelevant, but anyway I do plan to get to what you posted, David.Second, although I know we (rightly) focus on the original works themselves in this group, I will mention a resource I am finding helpful: Companion to Platos Republic by Nicholas P. White. Although not available in ebook form (so far as I know), a few passages I may quote when we get into the discussion, not because White's views are more worthy than others expressed here, but because he helped me notice something I might not have otherwise. (If a point is already brought out, I'll avoid being redundant.)
Third, I tend to have a proclivity to want to relate classics to current thought or even sometimes to the discussions through the centuries. (Boy, was that sentence repetitive, but I'm not going to try to rephrase it! ;-0) If others have similar inclinations, I would be interested in your suggestions, at least here as background. (I shall provide some and have some further questions as we move on.)
Eman has already suggested in one of his posts that The Republic tackles the topic of "justice." Most of what I see to date suggests the accuracy of that view, although the first pages could lead us to ask the relationship of "justice" to "morality" or "goodness."
Lily wrote: "A lot of good leadership, thought, and participation went into it. Unfortunately, personally I eventually fou..." I departed a couple of shall-remain-nameless Goodreads Groups very shortly after joining them because I noticed unmistakable signs of heavy-handed moderating.
Patrick wrote: "I departed a couple of shall-remain-nameless Goodreads Groups very shortly after joining them because I noticed unmistakable signs of heavy-handed moderating. "I hope you'll let us know if you think we're getting too heavy-handed before you just depart without warning!
Oh, certainly. You can probably guess the two groups I ditched. One is very large and is related to history; the other is related to political philosophy. All I can say is, the mods make you feel CHIDED before you've even gotten across the threshold. Who needs it?
I promised to post some of the resources I am using to background The Republic: Here are a couple:Karl Popper has been a well-known critic of Plato, so I went looking for a few details. I have started here:
http://www.iep.utm.edu/popp-pol/
The other place stream of consciousness took me was to what has been written about the evolution of the concept of "justice" across the centuries. A comment in White's Companion (see @18) has alerted me that comparisons may not be obvious or easy or even really possible, but who am I to let that stop me... Hence, another Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry: http://www.iep.utm.edu/justwest/
I am still waddling my way through these myself, but they seem to be worth the time so far. I noted that this latter one is authored by a person associated with Gonzaga University, a Jesuit University in Seattle. Jesuits still pushing the world to understand areas like these?
Lily wrote: "Jesuits still pushing the world to understand areas like these? "I certainly hope so. :)
It is easy to find, but in case you overlooked it and are interested in the Book I discussion thread back in 2011, it is here:https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Lynne wrote: "Thank you!"You are most welcome. Enjoy. I did. In fact, I wanted to invite at least one participant back for this discussion. Others may be intrigued to compare their comments half a decade apart.
Half a decade!?!
I looked at some of our photos --- Everyman, orhers... --- and we appear not to have aged even a day!
I'll have to check out the link. Thanks, Lily.
I looked at some of our photos --- Everyman, orhers... --- and we appear not to have aged even a day!
I'll have to check out the link. Thanks, Lily.
Adelle wrote: "...I'll have to check out the link. Thanks, Lily."Enjoy, Adelle!
Of course we haven't aged a day, only gained in wisdom! [g]
Lily wrote: "Adelle wrote: "...I'll have to check out the link. Thanks, Lily."
Enjoy, Adelle!
Of course we haven't aged a day, only gained in wisdom! [g]"
;-)
Enjoy, Adelle!
Of course we haven't aged a day, only gained in wisdom! [g]"
;-)
[368a]. . .you [Glaucon and Adiamantis] distinguished yourselves in the battle of Megara—'Sons of Ariston,4 whose race from a glorious sire is god-like.The battle of Megara (409/408 BC) was a rare example of an Athenian victory on land over a force that contained Spartan troops. Megara had been an ally of Athens, but sided against them during the Great Peloponnesian War, and as a result the Athenians seized Nisaea, the port of Megara. At some point in 409/408 the Megarians took advantage of Athens's apparently vulnerability after the disaster at Syracuse and recaptured Nisaea.
The Athenians responded by sending out a force of 1,000 infantry and 400 cavalry, commanded by Leotrophides and Timarchus. This army may have included Plato's brothers. The Megarians responded by drawing up their entire army nears some hills called the 'cerata', or 'horns', close to the border between Attica and Megara. They were supported by a number of troops from Sicily and some Spartans. The Athenians won the land battle, inflicting heavy losses on the Megarians, although only twenty Spartans were lost. The reaction to this victory in Athens was a mix of pride over the victory and anger that their generals risked battle against a force that included a Spartan contingent.
Rickard, J (17 August 2011), Battle of Megara, 409/408 BC , http://www.historyofwar.org/articles/...
Do we know whether either Plato or Socrates had children?What is the "best" biographical information of which people here are aware of these two? I.e., the good books or articles.
Lily wrote: "Do we know whether either Plato or Socrates had children?What is the "best" biographical information of which people here are aware of these two? I.e., the good books or articles."
Socrates' children come to visit him when he is in jail - I think that's in the Phaedo. They are small children, and Socrates is fairly old, so I'm not sure if they were his only children. Plato I'm not sure about.
There is a very fine book about Socrates by historian Bethany Hughes: The Hemlock Cup: Socrates, Athens and the Search for the Good Life. It's scholarly, well footnoted, but also very readable.
Thomas wrote: "There is a very fine book about Socrates by historian Bethany Hughes: The Hemlock Cup: Socrates, Athens and the Search for the Good Life. It's scholarly, well footnoted, but also very readable. ..."Thanks, Thomas. However, I found this comment in this review by Mixal (?) troubling:
(view spoiler)
Not a biography, but interesting reading: The Trial of Socrates (I'm recommending the I.F. Stone book; there are several others with the same title.)Izzy Stone was a renowned journalist of the mid-20th century, the author for many years of I.F. Stone's Weekly. (He was a hero of my High School history teacher, and his little four-page newsletter was a weekly staple of our current affairs classes.)
When he retired he decided to learn ancient Greek so he could read Plato in the original, and wrote this fascinating book in which he approached the trial of Socrates as an investigative journalist. A fascinating read with an unusual conclusion.
Lily wrote: "Thanks, Thomas. However, I found this comment in this review by Mixal (?) troubling: "...Quite a substantial part of the book was trying to argue that Socrates was a feminist "Such as? Can I assume that "Mixal(?)" cited specific examples? :)
It's true that it is the sort of book that is bound to annoy classics snobs because it is written for the general public, but I didn't find that she had any particular agenda. But maybe that's because I wasn't looking for one.
There is a 34 page bibliography at the end of The Hemlock Cup that cites other works about Socrates. That would be a good place to look for alternatives.
An interesting 15 page critique of the Principle of Specialization in Plato's RepublicPrinciple of Specialization: Each occupation in the city should be practiced by a person who has a natural aptitude for it; and specializes in it, to the exclusion of competing occupations.
Class Assignment and the Principle of Specialization in Plato’s Republic." Proceedings of the Boston Area Colloquium in Ancient Philosophy. Vol. 20. 2005. 229-43.
As usual in reading Plato, I have found it difficult to stay with any timeline for getting through the pages. But I have followed enough to know that "justice" is a major topic. ;-o In looking at some of the reviews of
A Gentleman in Moscow
by Amor Towles, a book I am listening to for my f2f book group this month, I found this quotation from Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn that seemed relevant to the discussions here. I leave it to you to fit it into the appropriate time/reading slot.“In keeping silent about evil, in burying it so deep within us that no sign of it appears on the surface, we are implanting it, and it will rise up a thousand fold in the future. When we neither punish nor reproach evildoers, we are not simply protecting their trivial old age, we are thereby ripping the foundations of justice from beneath new generations.” ― Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn, The Gulag Archipelago 1918-1956
Classics and the Western Canon
Books mentioned in this topic
A Gentleman in Moscow (other topics)The Trial of Socrates (other topics)
The Hemlock Cup: Socrates, Athens and the Search for the Good Life (other topics)
A Companion to Plato's Republic (other topics)
Authors mentioned in this topic
Amor Towles (other topics)Aleksandr Solzhenitsyn (other topics)
Nicholas P. White (other topics)
I'll just start with Simon Blackburn's observation that philosophy is a process, not a product; you shouldn't read philosophy, you should DO philosophy.
The Republic is a dialogue, but I suggest reading it not just as a dialogue between the characters in the work, but as a dialogue between them and yourself; so that you become as much a participant in the dialogue as any of the original Greek participants.