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Indie: Hide it or tread proudly?
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I emphasize independence, that I do it all. And I do make mistakes, but I own up to that, too, and so far, readers seem to respect me for owning up to the wrong stuff I've done.So me = proudly indie
If you look at musicians, being indie is usually a good thing. You're viewed as not being a sellout and can develop a niche of committed fans. Part of the appeal, I think, is that no one is telling you what to sing. And there is no engineering of the melody to make it more attractive. The problem, as far as fame is concerned, is that there is a ceiling with this approach. You'll only go as far as your niche takes you.Indie authors are similar in that we cater almost exclusively to a niche audience. However, indie musicians seem to be further ahead with respect to the "indie" label being a positive.
We'll get there, but there needs to be higher quality work (from writing and editing to covers and promotion) produced on our side. If we set a higher standard for ourselves, I think more readers will take us seriously.
If you are someone who produces high quality work, then I think emphasizing your indie-ness can be a net positive. Otherwise, I would just stick to improving your craft.
To be clear, I was not implying it's not a compliment. I was merely pointing out that to the majority of readers, it's irrelevant. There's a great deal of people who couldn't name the big 5. There's more who couldn't tell you the difference between a boutique imprint from Doubleday, a small press publication and a well produced indie self-published book.[1] You're not competing "in the indie space", you're competing for readers, full stop and you don't get special treatment or cut any slack for being an indie publisher. To readers, you are not just "indie authors", you're authors first ,indie second. You don't write "indie books", they're books first, indie second. We don't care who published them if they're any good.
What I was reacting to was the immediate "We need an indie category" in the GR awards. Why? All the other awards are for genres other than the debut author one, and "indie" is not a genre (I'd argue the debut author one is an outlier and should be dropped actually, but it's not like they listen to me.) People don't think "I feel like reading a mystery today" one day, and then "I feel like a fantasy novel" the next and then follow it up with "I need to go find me a good indie book." If they do, they're weird, who thinks like that? An indie book could be non-fiction on the history of mushroom omelettes, or a paranormal romance about a weremouse[2] so how are they competing in the same category for a reader award for favourite books?
Similarly "We need an indie authors awards." There are already hundreds of these[3], primarily authors giving them to each other, and with very little input from the readers. The reason the GR awards get traction and publicity is because they are voted for by the readers, not a board of literary pundits, and not authors. How would yet another indie authors awards create traction with readers enough to get a respectable amount of votes and be taken seriously?
And then there's the place any prolific reviewer will in reality run into the claim to being an indie: When you didn't review a book positively enough, and you get the inevitable comment "I'm just an indie author, cut me slack" whining in the review comments. If I rated a book 3 (that's "Good" here on GR, remember) don't complain it's not a 4. If i thought it deserved a 4, I'd have given it one, and "But you should support indie authors" is a really poor reason to inflate the stars. I already supported the author, quite literally, by buying the book. This is not professional behaviour, and probably one of the major reasons heavy reviewers in particular find "I'm an indie author..." to be a sign to run for the hills. And really, these are the people who you really don't want to alienate, because they're the ones who'll promote your book for you if it's any good!
[1] I saw a review once of someone praising a Nan A. Talese book for being beautifully formatted for an indie book. SMH.
[2] Those are both real books I've seen on GR btw. Although I'm not actually sure the mushroom one was indie published.
[3] I'm not even kidding. Google "indie book award" and you'll see what I mean.
Krazykiwi wrote: "To be clear, I was not implying it's not a compliment. ..."Thanks for an elaborate insight, KrazyKiwi. I guess I'll take a 'non-compliment' upon myself then -:), implying that among those readers who do discern there maybe a certain stigma about the indies.
Wow this is a great topic! I think this really comes down to the reader's perceptions of the term Indie. For me labeling a work as Indie would evoke some expectations (however unfair or not) about the quality of the work. I would be more forgiving of typos as I know that the author has had to find and foot the bill for all of the book's editors and proofreaders and so might not have gotten access to the best of the profession.
(Yes I know this a wrong premise, but one that I have anyway)
Secondly, I go into reading said work with slightly lower expectations about the quality of the story. If it was a perfect story then why didn't a major publisher pick it up? The self publishing world is filled with a great deal of books that are poorly written and many readers consider self published as the same as Indie published.
(Also an extremely unfair perception. There are plenty of books published by big publishers that flop for me and many small publishing and Indie works are exceptional. Non-fiction I expect the author to have done their work and expect top quality regardless of publisher as topic alone might force the author to go Indie)
Great works are found everywhere, but small and Indie published ones will struggle harder for recognition if for no other reason than a lack of marketing capital. Any author deliberately labeling themselves Indie must be prepare to take the baggage as well as any applause that comes with it.
I don't see the label of Indie as a compliment nor a non-compliment. I'm a writer aspiring to get my first work published. I don't see Indie as anything more or less than saying I'm writing Epic Fantasy. Each has it's own expectations surrounding the label but neither are congratulatory/non-congratulatory.
It's strange because I love being an indie author but labels make me cringe. I don't owe it to the indie community to fly a banner. I write parenting books and my first responsibility is to write thoughtful, well-researched, well-written, carefully edited and beautifully formatted books. What i say could potentially impact a parent's decision and I take that very, very seriously. I don't know that a parent would care if i were an indie or not but it would be naive of me to assume that non-fiction, authority-based books aren't carefully scrutinized. I have been on countless interviews where my indiehood has been happily discussed but I am not a cheerleader. What I would rather be is a serious author. Doesn't that do more for us indies than anything else in the long run?
Krazykiwi wrote: "To be clear, I was not implying it's not a compliment. I was merely pointing out that to the majority of readers, it's irrelevant. There's a great deal of people who couldn't name the big 5. There'..."*applause*
Leer wrote: "I would be more forgiving of typos as I know that the author has had to find and foot the bill for all of the book's editors and proofreaders and so might not have gotten access to the best of the profession. (Yes I know this a wrong premise, but one that I have anyway)
Secondly, I go into reading said work with slightly lower expectations about the quality of the story. If it was a perfect story then why didn't a major publisher pick it up? The self publishing world is filled with a great deal of books that are poorly written and many readers consider self published as the same as Indie published."
Incidentally, yes, readers group self-published and independent press together, because authors don't use the self-published label, they invariably say indie - witness this very thread and it's predecessor, where the people claiming indie are in fact saying they do it all themselves. I think the battle on keeping those two definitions apart is long lost.
The problem with what you wrote though Leer, is that there is a sense that authors expect to be held to these lower standards by their actual paying readers too. I can't imagine anyone who's in this for anything other than a fast buck actually wanting that.
The problem with what you wrote though Leer, is that there is a sense that authors expect to be held to these lower standards by their actual paying readers too. I can't imagine anyone who's in this for anything other than a fast buck actually wanting that. Believe me they do. They want people to pay for books with poor covers, no external editing or proofreading, because 'I can't afford' and 'I think we should be given a chance as beginners'.
I'd like to give a car mechanic a chance to stuff my brakes, a medic to operate on the wrong eye, and a builder the chance to build a dodgy house because they are just beginners too.
If amateur writers who don't aim for professional standards receive poor feedback, why should they complain. Having said that, I've seen 2/1 star books with 5 stars.
If you don't focus on quality you aere short-changing yourself, the profession and the reader. Of course we all learn as we grow but with such a supportive community here on GR there is no excuse not to clean up your publishing act. If you can't afford good editing then wait awhile longer to publish.
Tara wrote: "It's strange because I love being an indie author but labels make me cringe. I don't owe it to the indie community to fly a banner. I write parenting books and my first responsibility is to write t..."I’m with Tara. I don’t go out of my way to announce indie status, but I never hide it either. If it comes up in conversation, I’m more than happy to tell my story or talk about what’s involved. I’ve participated in local book events, both indie and mixed, and the reading community is really supportive—all they want are great books, and to celebrate the authors who write them.
But is it fair to hold indie authors to the same standards as authors backed by a big publishing company? I would be like comparing the science fiction film of a director fresh out of college operating on a low budget to the works of the James Cameron, Steven Spielberg's of the world. In many cases it's just really hard to deliver the same quality of work (cover, blurb, editing, formatting, promotion) as an author with a whole TEAM of individuals working on his or her behalf.For that reason I do cut indie authors a bit of slack. I do believe that some people go a bit over board though and deliver just poor piss quality when they could easily invest a little money and deliver a much better product. In most cases, those authors do use being self published as an excuse and that's indeed annoying.
I actually do flaunt it! I use it as a title! Since I can't add "NYTIMES Bestselling Author" in front of my name yet (:p) I've decided to settle for "Indie Author: Alexis Wills" lol.
I like J.J.'s example of bands playing in clubs, pubs and small towns. They don't pretend to be Guns 'n' Roses, but they do it with heart, often comprise decent musicians and play cool music. And Bill Clinton playing sax to foreign crowds? It was his landmark -:)I spent from 0.5 to 1k bucks on each book: on cover, editing and proofreading. Do I think they are that typo free as some trad published? Most likely - not. But I don't need any 'indie discount' in evaluating - whatever review the reader believes the book deserves, is fine with me -:)
Alexis wrote: "But is it fair to hold indie authors to the same standards as authors backed by a big publishing company? I would be like comparing the science fiction film of a director fresh out of college opera..."I agree with you in regards to the content but not the process. I think literature is subjective and i love the fact that indies are free to write abut anythin they choose. I actually think that micro-niching in literature will be an area where indies will determine readership trends in the future and I am proud of that. But if you're going to write about a band of roving twinkie wrappers in the snack apocolypse you should still make sure it is formatted and edited properly. Hire the best cover designer you can or knuckle down nad learn a bit of illustrator or photoshop. Just put in the requisite amount of time and energy. Don't do your cover on MS Word using clip art and yard sale poster fonts and expect me to not notice. And although we should not copy mainstream templates to the tee unless we want to we should still be aware of industry norms and trends so we can make informed decisions. If you want to write a romance with an unusual cover, fine - as indies we have more latitude. But at least do your homework and know what romance cover trends you are disregarding and why. Have a strategy even if you're taking a gamble. Now I want a snack cake :(
Tara wrote: "I agree with you in regards to the content but not the process."This!
This is what I was trying to say. Be independent. Be niche and serve those readerships that trad pub doesn't. Show us the diversity trad pub is afraid to. All those good things you can do that trad pub can't or won't or will take 3 years to get around to.
There are some serious advantages to being independent, so don't blow the opportunities by not following through with a fantastic product, and it no longer matters who paid for your editor.
(And thank you Tara, for actually understanding what I have been getting at, and saying it more articulately than I was managing!)
@ KrazykiwiActually I owe you thanks because your well-thought post helped me better understand my position on this. I'm often frustrated by the lack of recognition some of my fellow indies receive when i know their writing to be beyond amazing. But I am equally frustrated when I see indies put out poor work and then complain about hte results. I want us all to flourish but that will not happen without dedication and awareness that standards exist for a reason. Your comment brought this all together for me quite clearly. I'm protective of my indie community but I strongly believe that if you are lucky enough to get your book into the hands of a reader then that book had better have at least the basics checked off. The rest is up to the reading gods :) On another forum a writer asked for advice about a book that he/she had published. It was done hastily before the author learned a lot about the craftsmanship of writing and the technical aspect of publishing. New and improved sequels were ready but he/she was hesitant to pull the work and start over and wanted advice about what to do. I was absolutely amazed that it was even a question.
Im Indie all the way and proud of it !
I'm okay with my books being judged alongside the trad published, and I have never really made it clear that I am self-published. I'd rather people pick up my books based on cover/blurb/preview without the publishing why's and how's entering their mind. I don't want to discourage anyone from publishing just because their end product might not be perfect. It feels good to be a published author and hold your own book in your hand. If I was convinced that I should not publish my book unless I had editors and betas, I never would have published at all. I do my best over a few drafts of the book, then click publish and don't look back.
*dodges rotten fruit* :D
I admire that others spend a lot of time and money in making a perfect product that they know they will be proud of. But there are other paths to writing success. I heard that 50 Shades and Hunger Games had all kinds of editing issues. Imagine how many would-be best selling authors are out there but too discouraged to publish because they can't afford editors or decent book covers.
I have respect for books that are self-published, even if they have homemade covers, typos, and whatever else. A lot of writers can't afford more and that's okay imo. I say, give it your best shot with what you have to work with and let the chips fall where they may. I know it's an unpopular opinion :D. But isn't that kind of the beauty of being indie?
Marie wrote: "I'm okay with my books being judged alongside the trad published, and I have never really made it clear that I am self-published. I'd rather people pick up my books based on cover/blurb/preview wit..."I agree. I think some people might not have the financial means to hire an editor, create a cool website and a beautiful cover but have a dream and still want to their work out there. They should be commended. I don't think it's fair to tell them to wait until they can put out a top-notch product: not everyone is or will be in a financial position to do so.
I'll attempt to put this diplomatically, but I'll probably fail: I don't think they should be commended at all. I think they are the exact reason "indie author" has a bad name, and that it's bad for publishing as a whole, it's bad for readers, and it's bad for all the indie authors who are taking their craft and their business seriously.
If you're knowingly publishing a shoddy product because you are too impatient to save up to get a decent editor, then you shouldn't really be expecting people to pay for it either.
If you just want your work read, post it on Wattpad. If you just want to hold a shiny paperback in your hands, sure put it on the POD sites, and order yourself a copy to stroke your own ego with, but why then push the kindle version out to Amazon and put a price on it?
I can't take this argument seriously, when people are expecting readers to pay for their books.
And go read post #10 in this thread. In what other industry (and this is definitely an industry) do vendors (that's what you are) get away with bilking customers on a continuing basis because they are a beginner and/or broke?
Using "I can't afford an editor" as an argument is disingenuously one sided, and completely ignores the fact that your customers (i.e. your readers) are also choosing where and on what to spend their hard earned money.
Ok, yeah, I think I failed the diplomacy. Sorry, not sorry.
I was amazed when I returned to writing fiction by the number of books in the indie/self-published space. Honestly, I did not have a clue till I joined Goodreads, and since I became friends with a number of self-published authors.If I am friends with you, I will almost certainly buy your book because I believe in supporting my fellow authors. HOWEVER, before I joined Goodreads I was a member of bookbubs where I was sent a choice of many books for $1.99 or $2.99. I had no clear idea that low prices meant self-published authors, and when I bought a couple of them, I soon realized why they were discounted even though I still wasn't really clear that they were self-published.
Very often, I quit after the first chapter because the writer had no clue as to how to structure a plot. Or the characters were cliches, and various plot devices were clearly borrowed from masters of the particular genre.
I usually buy a book by "looking inside" on Amazon where they give you enough of a taste to know whether the book is for you. At that stage, I will buy a book whether it is trad published or indie or self-published, and I generally don't care too much about a cover. But I will generally NOT EVER buy a book if I see a typo or grammatical error in those first few pages. Or if the dialog is poorly written. Or the formatting is annoying. Those are clear clues that not only is the author self-published, but also does not care at all about how his/her work will be perceived. If the author does not care enough to put out a polished gem, why should I waste my time when there are a hundred other books I could be reading instead?
When I published my book my costs were $65. My cover designer charged me $45 and because I nitpicked him without mercy abou the details I gave him a $20 gratuity. The beta readers and editors wanted around $300 for a book under 200 pages so I edited it myself. I'm not cheap but when I hire an editor it will be for longer works of fiction. Besides, I have this secret fear of paying the editor and he overlooks something or another. So I spent agonizing days and nights going over each sentence and each word. Once through for grammar. Once through for content. Once through for flow and linkage. Once through for structure and formatting. Then i gave it to my husband and he did the exact same thing. When we formatted it we made sure to check the results on our PC, mobile devices and with the kindle previewer. At every stage when we were certain it was correct we would catch a small mistake and put it all through the grinder again. When we got the first paperback proof in the mail we looked at one another, sighed with pleasure and grabed our highlighters and went through the book page by page. We ended up sending it back to Createspace three more times until it was the way we wanted it.The thought that I will be going through this process twice more in the upcoming months makes my head swim but there's no feeling like sending my book out into the world and not worrying about it, so to speak. I know it's on its best behavior lol. When I submitted it for vetting to the Centers For Parenting Education i held my breath for three weeks while they reviewed it for inclusion on their resources website. When I got the approval email from one of the directors it was one of the happiest days in my little publishing life lol. I don't know if my book is the only indie title in the resource directory but I am almost sure it is.To be fair I am a stay at home and have a degree and my husband is a researcher at Columbia and has a PhD so there were no worries about competency. If you are a single mom with a full time job your options may be different from mine. But I also feel like what one doesn't have in money one can make up for with time or ingenuity. Find someone who needs clients because they are beginning editors and can't charge yet. Take an extra month and go over the MS with a fine-toothed comb. Exchange beta services for editing services. I don't know but just don't accept poor work. And even with all this there may still be a mistake in the MS but don't hesitate to make the corrections and republish it.
I am glad we are all here having this conversation but to be fair, everyone here on this thread is a really good writer, from what I have scanned and not guilty of putting out egregiously flawed material. I can be a bit type A but I also know that my name is on this product and years after I'm gone someone may come across my title and give it a read.
*looks up* Oh my God I am too wordy.
Hiring editors and proofreaders is ideal, of course. Sadly, I have talked to a lot of indies who HAVE hired proofreaders and editors, and their books are still imperfect with typos pointed out by reviewers. There are so many places to spend your money as an indie. Unfortunately, you have to pick and choose sometimes. I personally choose ISBNs, professional formatting, cover design, and marketing (which means a minimum of $700 per book). Some indies do all of this themselves and are still successful (positive reader response and sales). Some spend thousands of dollars and are not successful.
Other costs to consider are websites, publicists, editorial reviews, promotions, blog tours, book tours, buying your own paperbacks, conventions, bookmarks/business cards/etc, printers, laptops, P.O. Boxes, ASNs, mandatory deposits, postage...the list seems like it never ends sometimes :D.
I would never consciously put out a shoddy book, of course. It is important to me that my reading audience enjoys the stories. But I know my books and writing style are not for everyone. I have carefully chosen where I think my money is best spent in publishing.
Every best seller has negative reviews from people who feel like they wasted their money, so professional editing teams and publishers are not guarantees for reader enjoyment either.
Tara wrote: "*looks up* Oh my God I am too wordy."Nah, it was a lovely post!
Marie wrote: "Tara wrote: "*looks up* Oh my God I am too wordy."Nah, it was a lovely post!"
*sigh* Your positive energy never gets old.
I am an indie author and proud of it, but also someone who can't afford to spend on professional help for covers, proofreading and the like. For those who said that we should wait and save money for such help before publishing, good for you for having ways to save money, but please understand that not all of us are financially fortunate. This said, I do not use the title of indie author as an excuse and do my genuine best to do myself as good a cover and proofreading work as I possibly can. I also am peculiar in that I write strictly as a hobby and have offered all of my sixteen books for free online, including on Goodreads. I don't care about making money but I also still don't have tons of money to spare. Despite all of this, I can honestly say that my books appear to be genuinely liked by most readers, even when accounting for the fact that English is a second language for me.
Another plus for being an indie author, and something already mentioned in a previous post: I am able to write the way I want and go beyond the often constrictive (if not to say constipated) limits put by publishers on the content and subjects of the story. I have had good fun in writing to date two stories mixing erotica and urban fantasy, which I would classify myself as 'urban fantasy for adults', and I believe that many readers would probably love to see more such books written for adults (but still having better story lines and depth of character than the typical erotica novel). Those are the kind of books that indie authors can best do for the readers.
Another plus for being an indie author, and something already mentioned in a previous post: I am able to write the way I want and go beyond the often constrictive (if not to say constipated) limits put by publishers on the content and subjects of the story. I have had good fun in writing to date two stories mixing erotica and urban fantasy, which I would classify myself as 'urban fantasy for adults', and I believe that many readers would probably love to see more such books written for adults (but still having better story lines and depth of character than the typical erotica novel). Those are the kind of books that indie authors can best do for the readers.
Michel wrote: "I am an indie author and proud of it, but also someone who can't afford to spend on professional help for covers, proofreading and the like. For those who said that we should wait and save money fo..."I hope you don't feel that I equate lots of money with absolute book quality. Again, I spent $65 on my first book. But taking time is as important as spending money. I've seen really amazing covers from people who taught themselves graphic design because they couldn't afford pro help. It's passion, a refusal to put out poorly structured work and a desire to do one's best. Not money.
Krazykiwi wrote: "I'll attempt to put this diplomatically, but I'll probably fail: I don't think they should be commended at all. I think they are the exact reason "indie author" has a bad name, and that it's bad ..."
"Commended" might not have been the right word, I'm Dutch and sometimes I don't find the right word but I stand by what I said. If someone is passionate about writing and does his or her best to produce a quality book but fails, then I'm not going to tear that person to shreds. I would give him credit for daring to go after his or dreams of being a published author and I would hope that if his or her luck changes, then the next time he or she will be able to put out a better product.
With Amazon now offering the chance to read a nice percentage of the book before you buy it and the ability to return a book, I don't think readers are being taken for a ride either. It's up to them if they want to make a sweeping generalization regarding indie authors based on the quality of some books that failed to meet their standards.
Authoring a book is a huge accomplishment. Everyone who does should be proud of their achievement.
M.L. Roberts wrote: "Authoring a book is a huge accomplishment. Everyone who does should be proud of their achievement."Please know that I fully agree with you but I also believe a lot of writers don't realize that they also have to be authors. The distinction is not insignificant.
Hanako the Fangirl: O Alex the Indie, Alex the Indie! wherefore art thou Alex?Deny they Independence and refuse thy name;
Or, if though wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be a Reader of Penguin Random House.
Alex the Indie: [Aside] Shall I hear more, or shall I type at this?
Hanako the Fangirl: 'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself though, not an Indie.
What's an Indie? It is not hand, nor keyboard,
Nor arm, nor face, nor handmade cover
Belonging to an author. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a book,
By any other name would still cause me to cry out and feel the main character's pain;
With all the beauty and excitement, surely indie world has its Achilles heel and often deserves criticism for poor presentation and delivery. But it's not like each trad published book is a mega-hit. Far from that....I liked low budget El Mariachi more than high budget Desperado, but that's probably not the rule -:)
Alex G wrote: "Hanako the Fangirl: O Alex the Indie, Alex the Indie! wherefore art thou Alex?Deny they Independence and refuse thy name;
Or, if though wilt not, be but sworn my love,
And I'll no longer be a Read..."
Hark, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the joy of writing and indie publishing is the sun.
Denise wrote: "Nik wrote: "So, what do you, guys, think: disguise for trad (of course, without misleading the customers) or emphasize independence?"I have no problem letting people know I'm a self-published aut..."
*pushes non-existent GR like button*
If you've written a book you've authored. :-)
M.L. Roberts wrote: "If you've written a book you've authored. :-)"If you've written a book you're a writer. If you've published it you're an author. *ducks, offers cookies*
Tara wrote: Hark, what light through yonder window breaks? It is the joy of writing and indie publishing is the sun."well done! i agree with this statement in that indie equates to self-published. KDP and the kindle first introduced back in 2007, by changing the scale of self-publishing, has completely overturned the landscape of publishing. with the recently-released dismal sales of the Big 5, it's adapt or die for trad pubs.
I say proud... partly because, if we're asking readers to take a chance on our work, we have to be confident in not just the story itself, but the process by which it came to be. If we hem and haw over the fact that we're indie authors, we run the risk of perpetuating the stereotypes that indie authors face. We're selling ourselves as much as we're selling our stories.Not only that, but every time I tell someone my books are indie published (or, to be more specific, self-published), it piques their interest; inevitably, they ask how I did it. What my process was, what companies I used, how much it cost, how long it took, and so on and so forth. I'm not so sure traditional authors get those same questions.
J.D. wrote: "I say proud... partly because, if we're asking readers to take a chance on our work, we have to be confident in not just the story itself, but the process by which it came to be. If we hem and haw ..."Agree.
Hell, proudly! I write for the fun of it and I should hide the fact that I don't use a traditional publisher? Not a chance!
So, what do you, guys, think: disguise for trad (of course, without misleading the customers) or emphasize independence?