"The Long Way to a Small, Angry Planet" Final Thoughts *Spoilers*

[Cheryl]

Jerrod wrote: "Cheryl wrote: "I agree with Mrs. Joseph.

The Aandrisks's system 1. works for them, and 2. is not inherently any more 'cruel' than so many institutions that humans have devised - so what business..."

I assume by 'labor practices in Bangladesh' you're referring to something involving cruelty. And if the heroin user affects only himself, fine... when he affects others, cruelty comes up again, and if it's his kids that are affected, then it's not working for him. I don't think my criteria are arbitrary at all.

But yeah, Chambers does have that one inconsistency that's interesting. Jenks' mom's (previous) community should not have been mocked, imo.

[Cheryl]

I think that aliens that are truly alien are interesting. I still agree with the most eloquent Mrs. Joseph.

[Sarah]

I agree also. I want things to stretch my thinking and expand it. Things that teach me new ways of looking at things are always a good thing.

[Trike]

Cheryl wrote: "I think that aliens that are truly alien are interesting."

I agree.

I once had this discussion with someone on Usenet about The Sparrow where a guy stated he didn't like it because the aliens were unlike anything that had ever existed on Earth.

I asked him why he even bothered to read Science Fiction, since extrapolating that sort of thing was pretty much the point of the genre. (Nevermind the fact that he couldn't possibly know that a similar situation had never occurred here. There were a lot dinosaurs, after all.)

Spoiler for The Sparrow: (view spoiler)[On the alien planet the predators had evolved to resemble their prey, to be better predators. Both groups were sentient. I thought that was a cool idea, but it also underscored one of the book's themes. (hide spoiler)]

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

From Small, Angry planet:

"Remember, most of the clutch will die anyway. Most won't even make it to hatching. That's not because they're unhealthy. That's just how it is. Stars, I can't even imagine how many of us there'd be if every egg hatched. Too many." She shuddered.

...

"I'll never understand how the rest of you expect brand new adults to be able to teach kids how to be people."

...

[Rosemary] was surprised to realize the depth of her Human concept of motherhood, the idea that procreating fundamentally changed you. But then, she was of a mammalian species. If she ever chose to have children, it would mean spending the better part of a year watching her body stretch and contort, then another year, or more, of letting a fragile, helpless thing that didn't understand its own limbs feed from her body. Aandrisk hatchlings developed within a detached object, and emerged ready to walk.

...

"... they're loved by the elders raising them."


***

Bolding mine, obviously.

I read a bit about lizards after reading this story. They lay their eggs and stick around until their hatched and then they're outta there. Lizards are born capable of walking and hunting and taking care of themselves. They don't need to be taught and nurtured in the same way we do.

Mammal babies are helpless. Completely dependent on their parents or on some adult to take care of them. We have a bond with them because, as Rosemary says, they grow inside of us and are completely dependent on us for their needs.

Lizards... and Aandrisks... are simply different.

ETA: Also, I definitely get the impression it's less hatchlings dying all over the place, and more some eggs just not being viable and not hatching. They also don't see it as a health issue, and see a problem with resources were all the eggs to hatch - so it's not just their view of children which prevents them from investigating the issue, but the fact that a) it's not necessary because there's no shortage of hatchlings and b) they already seem to know that it's not because they're unhealthy, but just because not all eggs are viable.

So, yes, while sci-fi often uses the alien as metaphor for humanity, and while this book also holds to that... you can't just dismiss the biological aspects and say "Well, what if they were mammals" because them not being mammals is kinda the point.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

As to judging the other human colonies as opposed to the alien ones...

I think part of it is because these characters are not perfect. They try to apply an aspect of tolerance, but there are some things they don't grok and never will. They don't really "get" the Aandrisk way anymore than some of us do. And they don't get Ohan and the virus way...

They try, but don't always succeed.

But they realize that since these cultures are so alien to their way of thinking, that they have no real context for judgement, and to judge is to apply human standards.

But in the same way, they may view other human colonies different and think it's ok to judge them precisely because they are human. They might not think to apply the same standards of "different culture" to someone they see mostly like themselves.

It's sort of how I judge people in America differently than I would judge people from a completely alien culture. Because I apply "American standards" without always considering that there is no such thing, really, since we're made up of various cultures.

[Jerrod]

colleen the fabulous fabulaphile wrote: "From Small, Angry planet:

"Remember, most of the clutch will die anyway. Most won't even make it to hatching. That's not because they're unhealthy. That's just how it is. Stars, I can't even imagi..."

Thanks for the references.

[Nick]

There's also this from page 137 (36%):

"And somehow it doesn't surprise me that you were a wilful child.' He thought aloud, and laughed. 'I bet you were a real pain.'
'Of course I was,' Sissix said with a grin. 'I wasn't a person yet.'
[...]
She would never, ever understand the idea that a child, especially an infant, was of more value than an adult who had already gained all the skills needed to benefit the community. The death of a new hatchling was so common as to be expected. The death of a child about to feather, yes, that was sad. But a real tragedy was the loss of an adult with friends and lovers and family."

[Cheryl]

colleen the fabulous fabulaphile wrote: "As to judging the other human colonies as opposed to the alien ones...

... But in the same way, they may view other human colonies different and think it's ok to judge them precisely because they are human. They might not think to apply the same standards of "different culture" to someone they see mostly like themselves. ..."

That makes sense; ty.

And ty for digging out those references.

[colleen the convivial curmudgeon]

Cheryl wrote: "And ty for digging out those references. "


No problem. I had this one on e-reader, so it was easy to search for. ;)

[Jacen]

This book was utterly amazing. I can't thank the people of this group who recommended it enough (though I can no longer find the thread I started while looking for recs, oddly, going to have to poke around to see what happened to it. There were others that sounded good). This novel has, perhaps, the single best characterization I've seen in the last decade. Kizzy may be my new favorite character of all time.

I was also fairly impressed with the aliens that were actually alien, rather than humans with pointy ears. Though, to be honest, that very strength of difference kinda made the relationship between Pei and Ashby feel a little off for me. Strangely, Rosemary and Sissix didn't produce the same slightly off feeling.

At any rate, this book actually made me reorder my mental top ten books of all time list for the first time this decade, so it's safe to say I loved it ^_^. I wrote a fairly glowing review for it, giving a more complete set of thoughts:
Here.

[J.W.]

I savored this book but also read it in three lengthy sit down sessions. Could not put it down. It felt so much like the kind of science fiction I'd like to see more: normal people doing their thing. It was wonderfully done with such well developed characters. I loved it so much.

Now the question I ask is: are there more books like this out there somewhere? I just finished a list of the top 100 sci-fi novels of all time and haven't really run into any other works like this one where it's just people on a ship living their lives and doing their jobs.

[MrsJoseph *grouchy*]

J.w. wrote: "I savored this book but also read it in three lengthy sit down sessions. Could not put it down. It felt so much like the kind of science fiction I'd like to see more: normal people doing their thin..."

There is a sequel out: A Closed and Common Orbit.

[Cheryl]

I'm going to read the sequel, after re-reading the first... but yes, I want more like this, too!

[Anna]

I just finished Orbit today after reading Long Way before that. Orbit was very different, but still good. I much preferred Long Way because of the characters and getting to know them. There are fewer characters in Orbit and they're not as interesting in my opinion. Some great themes though.

I've been reading the comments in this thread. It's funny that I didn't even notice the lack of plot while reading. It didn't bother me at all, the characters were so interesting and there was so much detail about the world and all the different races. I would very much like to read more about this set of characters. I wonder what book 3 is going to be about?

edit: There is now a spoiler thread for Orbit here.

[Michael]

J.w. wrote: "Now the question I ask is: are there more books like this out there somewhere? I just finished a list of the top 100 sci-fi novels of all time and haven't really run into any other works like this one where it's just people on a ship living their lives and doing their jobs. "

I haven't read anything with quite this much detail, I don't think. It almost seems like what I have heard about James A. Michener's books, though I've never read him.

However, something similar might be the Sirantha Jax series and/or the Stardoc series, both of which have a kind of Firefly/Star Trek vibe of people just doing their jobs/carving a life out for themselves, while sci-fi stuff pops up to amaze and confound them.

[Allison, Fairy Mod-mother]

I just read this book! It was so sweet. It was a welcome reprieve from the anti-hero and grimdark worlds I've been in lately. I've heard it compared to Firefly, but while I see the devices that caused people to make that connection, I didn't get that vibe from it. There wasn't the hint of violence, it was just sweet throughout.

On the note of violence, I did like the diplomacy skills being useful! And I thought Chambers did a great job making cultures feel distinct from each other.

[Oleksandr]

I've also recently finished it and now reading thru all the great comments in this thread. Three pages to go :)