Are you planners&plotters or pantsters?

[M.L.]

Do you plan and map out your stories or are you a pantster (write by the seat of your pants)? Or something else?

[Angel]

Both and something else.

[Nik]

I usually do have a general outline, but let the scenes flow spontaneously

[Tara Woods Turner]

When I'm plotting I just daydream and fly by the seat of my pants but when I write I'm very detailed and regimented with lots and lots of notes and outlines.

[Jeannine]

I am a total pantser and make notes on the side in an incoherent order in an incoherent book and then only at the end do I make outline cards just to check my plot points are in place. Not very wise (I'm sure a lot of tears could be spared using a proper plan).

[Graeme]

99.9% Planner/Plotter - the other 0.1% occurs during the writing of scenes.

I've been thinking of covering this topic in a blog post on my experiences (so far) of architecting a long form novel.

[Graeme]

E.g. #1: Breaking a book down into chapters looks like.

Book 1, First Act starts Very High -ve (Inciting Incident) ends +ve.

PRINCIPLES:-

Chloe’s war against Crane remains secret.
The identity of the Raven remains secret.

CHAPTER 1. When Nightmares Come True. (INCITING INCIDENT)

Friday 28th April 20xx.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Value Change: Starts +ve (Anton is Safe, and the world is sane, and confidently understood, ignorance is bliss.) - followed by a deep spiral into the negative, as his parents are murdered/abducted/imprisoned by Chloe Armitage and Marcus Drake on the orders of Cornelius Crane - however, Chloe has a secret agenda of her own.

Thursday April 27th 20xx: Last Day of classes for the Spring Semester.

Friday April 28th 20xx: Evening of the Faculty Dinner that Anna and William Slayne attend at Boston University. They are both professionals in the Archaeology Department. Sunset is at 19:41. (7:41 pm). Anton is expecting his parents back around the 9 to 9:30 mark.

Chloe & Marcus are free to move around outside after 7:41 pm. They show up at his door at 20:30 (8:30 pm).

Anton is a 1st Year student (Freshman) at Boston University taking a double degree program in Archeology, & Languages (Ancient Greek, Latin, Aramaic & Sanskrit - Indo European), with a minor in Mathematics. He is on the BU Hockey and Basketball teams. 6’1” tall, highly athletic, 18 yo. Born April 26 xxxx, he has just turned 18.

All action occurs over a single night.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

CHAPTER 2. Refuge from the Street

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

Value Change: Starts -ve, Anton is alone and devastated by the horrific death/abduction of his parents. The world has become strange and alien, he is alone and frightened. Moves +ve, as Anton finds a home and a good friend in Gang Wu.

Begins Saturday April 29th 20xx:

All action occurs over 5 days.

%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%%

[Graeme]

E.g. #2: Breaking down chapters into scenes.

Scene 1, An Agent of Darkness: (20:25, April 28th, Boston) Chloe (viewpoint) Armitage, general of the vampire dominion and lord of the Americas, rides in the back of her chauffeured limo. She is accompanied by Marcus Drake, her lieutenant, an elite vampire soldier that is bound to her will by a magical curse. She reflects on the memory of her own rebirth as a vampire, at the hands of her master Cornelius Crane, king of the vampire dominion. She dwells on her ambition to break the sorcerer's curse that forbids her to harm her master, and replace Cornelius Crane as ruler of the vampire dominion and become lord of this world.

Chloe is on a mission for Crane to retrieve the Papyrus of Hakron the Scribe. The papyrus is a 5000 year old text that describes the use of the key of Ahknaton to access the Metaframe, a divine engine at the foundation of reality that can be reprogrammed to modify the operational rules of the universe. Ahknaton, a high priest of the temple of Thoth, created the key and used it to command the Metaframe to resurrect his beloved wife Mekra, who had died from the poison of a scorpions sting. The Metaframe responded by resurrecting Mekra as the first vampire. Mekra, overwhelmed with the need for blood, killed her husband before fleeing in despair into the night. Hakron the Scribe witnessed everything and wrote it down.

Chloe and Marcus arrive at the home of Anna and William Slayne, and their son Anton. The Slayne family have the papyrus. Chloe intends to fulfill her masters mission, and also put in motion her own plan to supplant Cornelius Crane.

Scene 2, Mysterious Guests: (20:30, April 28th, Boston) Anton (viewpoint) Slayne (alias Smith), an 18 year old man, is studying for the spring semester exams in Archeology, Ancient languages and Mathematics, when his doorbell rings. He goes down stairs to answer it, and is confronted by the mesmerizing vision of Chloe Armitage.

Chloe’s dark brown hair is straight and fine, and neatly frames her exquisite face. Her complexion is flawless cream, her blue eyes are magnetic, and her lips a seductive red.

Momentarily charmed, he invites Chloe and Marcus into his living room. Chloe reveals to him that contrary to his firm belief, his family name is Slayne instead of Smith, his Grandfather Arthur Slayne is alive, instead of dead, and that his family has been living in hiding for most of his life.

Anton initially rejects the idea, then as Chloe and Marcus show him compelling evidence, his heart sinks and he becomes increasingly uneasy as he feels more and more threatened by the beautiful, but strange young woman and her companion sitting in his lounge room.

He suddenly realizes the threat and makes a run for it. Marcus moves with inhuman speed and he is suddenly held by arms like a steel trap, a cloth is held over his face, and drugged, he falls unconscious.

Scene 3, So Many Secrets: (21:15, April 28th, Boston) William (viewpoint) Slayne and his wife Anna come home from the faculty dinner. They anticipate a nightcap before bed, they expect that Anton is still studying for the spring semester exams. They are proud of their son. They come from the garage into the house and walk into the lounge room where Anton is tied and bound to a chair. They are ambushed and captured alive by Chloe & Marcus.

And so on for the rest of the scenes in the chapter...

[Graeme]

When I talk about defining a chapter or a scene prior to writing - the above is what I am talking about.

I plan & prepare - and then I execute.

My technique is not right or wrong - just what works for me. Honestly, there is no way that I could hold all the threads of the Metaframe War in my head at one time.

Scenes are nice bite sized chunks that I can work with easily. If a scene is a little complex I will create a bullet list of events that occur in it.

For complex combat scenes I draw maps of where everything is happening so that I can keep track of where everyone is and I worry about questions like.

"He's been firing a machine gun for 5 seconds - has he run out of bullets yet?"

"Is his opponent moving to the left or to the right?"

"Is there space available to do what is being done?"

I have a passion for eliminating logic errors in the narrative and ensuring that there is a seamless narrative flow for the reader, so that their suspension of disbelief is never broken.

[Nik]

A truly remarkable organization, Graeme! If that what works for you best, then it's as good an approach as any.
I bet some think art is disorder -:), but it's not necessarily so

[M.L.]

Wow Graeme! May I ask you blog address? If it's ok with Nik :-)

[M.L.]

Angel wrote: "Both and something else."

Is the something else a combination? Just curious!

[M.L.]

Nik wrote: "I usually do have a general outline, but let the scenes flow spontaneously"

I'm into the spontaneous on the current work I started in August. I'm at 42K words and haven't read it, so it will be interesting. I'm enjoying writing this way.

[M.L.]

Tara wrote: "When I'm plotting I just daydream and fly by the seat of my pants but when I write I'm very detailed and regimented with lots and lots of notes and outlines."

My curiosity again! Do you find that you use the notes a lot after you write them or does it work as more of a sorting-through type of process, and then off and flying?

[M.L.]

Jeannine wrote: "I am a total pantser and make notes on the side in an incoherent order in an incoherent book and then only at the end do I make outline cards just to check my plot points are in place. Not very wis..."

Good for you! I think I've reverted to, I'll call it, spontaneous, but it's based on a lot of thinking and reading about the times!

[Marie Silk]

I'm probably 50-50. I don't always use an outline, but the timing and execution of some events (historical) are pretty important to me. I have calendars of the years 1915-1920 by my side to ensure that the timing is accurate. For instance, I would not want to say it was a winter day for the sinking of Lusitania, which happened in May. I also study quite a bit of early 1900s law and social issues, so that my stories are plausible for the time.

If I use an outline, it will not necessarily be divided into chapters or numbers, but look more like this:

May 7, 1915:
Fall of 1917:
Christmas of 1918:

[E.M.]

I've written both ways, but I'm by nature a planner, so that approach works best for me. I read about the "snowflake method" a few years ago, so I utilized a modified version of that for my historical fiction and my rewrite of my fantasy. I agree with Marie that the more rigid planning method is more helpful with historical fiction, for the reasons she states. There's just so much research involved, it's one of the only ways to keep it all straight.

[Graeme]

Hi M.L.

My goodreads blog is here

But I haven't written the "Long Form" post yet...

[Graeme]

Hi E.M.

I have also been influenced by Randy Ingermansons work, but I only got this book recently. I discovered his website which has some very helpful ideas which are replicated in the book.

The most powerful technical influence on me was Story: Style, Structure, Substance, and the Principles of Screenwriting by Robert McKee which really opened up my understanding of narrative. While written for screenwriters it is completely applicable to novels.

[Ian]

I flit between plotting and pantsing. On the whole, the outline emerges from the mists as the story progresses, but which drives which? It depends. Sometimes when I get stuck I realize it's because I need to flesh out the outline in order to properly understand the scene I'm trying to write. At other times a scene hits me and I write it, then work out how it fits into the outline.

[Joanna]

Graeme wrote: "Hi E.M.

I have also been influenced by Randy Ingermansons work, but I only got this book recently. I discovered his website wh..."

I went to a 3-day McKee seminar in April and then his 1-day seminar on Tv writing. In fact, I am writing about it in detail in my Behind the Scenes section on my website in a week or so. He's quite brilliant, and you are absolutely right, his ideas apply to novels as much as they do to screenplays.

[Nik]

M.L. wrote: " I started in August. I'm at 42K words and haven't read it, so i..."

Very well done, M.L., in less than 2 months! You must average above 1k words a day. Best of luck with it!

[Matt]

When I first started writing, I was a complete pantster. I knew roughly where the story was going, but I kept getting all these fantastic ideas about the world, things that could happen to the characters, ect ect ect, and I would throw them all down. Then I'd change my ideas, re-write things, add in new things, scribble down rough timelines and maps in a vague attempt to keep everything straight in my head. I kept going until the story was finished, topping out at 250k words. The upshot was that it didn't work as a story. Even though I was happy with the overall story arc, and the individual characters arcs, there were way too many things going on, and it was simply not coherent enough. So I've gone back to the drawing board and, after reading up on the subject, have started to think more carefully about structure and outline. I'm deconstructing, analysing and putting it back together piece by piece.

It has to be the most inefficient way of writing a book possible, and it's still a long way from finished. On the plus side, because I let my mind wander around at will with little thought of structure and plotting, I have somehow managed to get down a lot of detail about the world that the story is set in. Historical timelines have become more detailed, though the maps are still quite sketchy.

Because of that, when it came to writing the stories in the book that I actually managed to publish, I had a clear understanding of the world I'd created, so could concentrate on the stories themselves, and how they tied together. So all that creative splurging was not a complete waste of time, at least.

The next time I start writing something new, I'm going to have a go at doing some proper outlining. Of course, first there's this 250k word potential trilogy that I somehow have to hammer into shape. The creativity side is done, now I have to start being more focused and practical.

[Graeme]

At least you've got plenty of material which is a great place to start.

[J.J.]

Mostly pantser. I need some idea of what the story is and I definitely need some theme or message or a plot goes nowhere, but the more detailed my ideas are when I start writing, the more it comes crashing down when one thought creeps in and destroys the whole framework.

Another problem I have is the brainstorming always shuts off at a point unless I'm actually working through a project, and when I am writing, I get all kinds of ideas that shift the direction of a story away from what I might have originally intended.

[Matt]

Graeme wrote: "At least you've got plenty of material which is a great place to start."

Indeed. What I have to do now is refine the material, and figure out which of it is plot relevant.

J.J. wrote: "...the brainstorming always shuts off at a point unless I'm actually working through a project, and when I am writing, I get all kinds of ideas that shift the direction of a story away from what I might have originally intended.."

This was always both a blessing and a curse. Working through something and solving certain problems, such as how a certain aspect of a culture functions, can generate some fantastic ideas. The trick is to figure out if those ideas are really relevant to the particular story one is telling and, if they are not, have the ability to put them to one side for further consideration, and get on with the job at hand.

[Anna]

I 'm mostly a plotter. I write historical fiction so a lot of the plot is already decided for me. I always start with a timeline of historical events for the years of the story, even if not all are relevant. I then join the dots and fill in the gaps! I use a different colour for events I want to put in, but have no historical basis, so i can see how an event might affect them. For example if I put characters on a pilgrimage to Rome in a certain year it might be useful to know if there was an earthquake elsewhere in Italy that year. My characters might feel tremors, for example.

I actually quite literally map my stories using google maps of all the places involved. It's very useful for planning. Even if I don't say in the book which Scottish loch my characters are beside, it's nice for me to know it!

However I don't necessarily stick rigidly to the plan. I won't contradict any known historical event, but in the Dark Ages there's plenty of gaps to be filled!

[Graeme]

Hi Matt,

Randy Ingermansons method is very accessible and may help you cut through to the chase. See comments above.

[[deleted user]]

I start as a strong planner/plotter, then may slip into a pantser when (not if, since it happens with nearly every novel I write) a sudden idea makes me deviate somewhat from my planned route.

Since I write a lot of time travel stories and historical fiction/alternate history novels, I always do extensive research of the time period or subject(s) involved before starting to write. I also write down a general outline by chapter of my planned story (I often run blank by mid-story and leave it up to future ideas to fill the rest). Also, very importantly, I write in advance a detailed description of what my main protagonist(s) will be like in my book. This way, I start writing my books on a pretty solid footing. I however believe that the pantser part of writing, especially when past mid story, is very important, as sudden inspiration MUST in my opinion play a part in any book that wants to be special.

[E.M.]

Graeme wrote: "Hi E.M.

I have also been influenced by Randy Ingermansons work, but I only got this book recently. I discovered his website wh..."

Yep, that's the one. I think he gets a little too meticulous in areas, but that's what works for him, I guess. I use a modified snowflake and find it incredibly helpful; a ton of work on the front end, but that's kind of the point. Writing the story from every character's point of view - even if it's only a paragraph or two - is one of my favorite aspects; really helps with the verbal jousting in dialogue scenes.

Michel, your approach sounds pretty similar to mine.

[E.M.]

Anna wrote: "I 'm mostly a plotter. I write historical fiction so a lot of the plot is already decided for me. I always start with a timeline of historical events for the years of the story, even if not all are..."

Google Earth is an incredible resource for writing historical fiction. Highly recommend it if you haven't already incorporated it.

[Matt]

Graeme wrote: "Hi Matt,

Randy Ingermansons method is very accessible and may help you cut through to the chase. See comments above."

It's now on my ever growing list of things to do :)

[[deleted user]]

E.M. wrote: ''Anna wrote: "I 'm mostly a plotter. I write historical fiction so a lot of the plot is already decided for me. I always start with a timeline of historical events for the years of the story, even if not all are... Google Earth is an incredible resource for writing historical fiction. Highly recommend it if you haven't already incorporated it.''

I second the use of Google Earth! It allows an author to visualize a place far away with accuracy, and this without the need for extensive, expensive traveling. Using Google Earth, I was able for example to view the surroundings of a specific warehouse in Spain that I then used in one of my novels.

[Frank]

I have a different terminology for it. Pantster for me is an inspirational approach and plotter is a methodological approach. I think most writers will embrace both elements but I confess to being primarily inspirational. To begin with I allow the characters to come to life within my imagination, I have rough idea of plot and I know where and how the narrative is going to end. Otherwise the first draft is where I construct the detailed plot. A complete chapter will come into my head and I will write fast and furious to get it out while it is still there. I find it more exciting this way. But the drawback is that I will sometimes have to drop whole sections, even chapters, when I come to further editions and revisions. This might drive a methodological writer bonkers.

[Zee]

I used to be a complete plotter when I started writing, down to the last detail. My stories would often 'turn' on me and I found I needed to adapt. With time and experience, it got to the point where I now plot the story, outline the chapters (as in which POV comes first, then 1-2 lines of what needs to happen under said POV), then during the actual writing is when the scene fills itself in.

[Lucy]

I'm a little bit of a mash-up of both, I think! I kind of race along without knowing exactly where it'll end up - but plot as I go. Generally speaking, I've got a solid idea of the overall plot before starting - but like to fly by the seat of my pants when it comes to adding extra detail!

[Gem]

I'm a total Pantster. The book I'm in the process of publishing started with one idea. "What would you do if you were the last human left in the galaxy?"
I sat down and started to write. making it up as I went along. I did get some ideas that I worked in as I went but I was at chapter 28 before I even know how the book would end.
I'm no good at plotting and planning.

[Zee]

Gem wrote: "I'm a total Pantster. The book I'm in the process of publishing started with one idea. "What would you do if you were the last human left in the galaxy?"
I sat down and started to write. making it ..."

I am so in awe and lol, jealous, of pantsters! Seems to me that is the idea of writing we all have of it - sits down in front of typewriter/keyboard and just goes at it. It must be so freeing :)

[Graeme]

Pantser at the scene level.

[Gem]

Zee, it's great until your muse goes on strike then you stare at the screen stumped because you don't plan so have no idea at all what to write lol

[Zee]

Gem wrote: "Zee, it's great until your muse goes on strike then you stare at the screen stumped because you don't plan so have no idea at all what to write lol"

LOL! That fickle muse, eh ... *wink*

[M.L.]

I think I've turned into a modified planner, but mostly in the way of bullet points as to progression.

[Groovy]

I'm late to this thread, but I can write out all the outlines I want. My characters have different ideas, though, and I have to write what they say. So, I guess panster.