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The Martian
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TM: Anyone else have problems with the central character?
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Personally I didn't have a problem. It was a fun book and he was a fun character, and the plot raced along, so I wasn't over-thinking it. Taking time to think about him, I have realised that he didn't have a great deal of depth, arguably none at all, but for me that seemed natural to the mode of communication. He was aware that people were going to find out what he said. It was not a private journal into which he could pour out his despair. I used to keep an online journal as well as a private one, and the tone of the two was VERY different. I feel like Watney would want to keep his more painful feelings to himself for the sake of his loved ones, and because he wouldn't want to be seen as weak. Making jokes out of things that are genuinely difficult is not uncommon, surely?Oh, and as for spoiler tags, if you click on the '(some html is ok)' link above the comment box, it will show you how to do basic things such as italics, links, and spoiler tags. Just copy/paste, and insert your text in place of the '...' If you can't use the link for some reason, then I'll type it here for you too:
< spoiler>...< /spoiler>
I've added spaces, or else it wouldn't show up, so you'll need to delete those first. :) I'd love to hear some of your examples.
Regarding item c, keep in mind that Watney is telling us his story, it's his journal (mostly), so he might be an unreliable narrator. His true feelings might not be what he's writing down, heck, given the pride I'd expect from an astronaut, I'd expect him to sound more macho in a journal others may read than he might really be feeling.That said, I found more or less all of the characters kind of flat. Because of the unreliable narrator, I had more issues with the lack of depth on the OTHER characters...
The 'competent white man' element is an interesting point. I have no problem with any individual case of a competent space protagonist being a white bloke, but the extent to which that's the norm is at the very least boring, and each individual case contributes to that. While it might not have made a huge difference to the story, it would have been nice if Watney wasn't both white and a guy.On which point, has anybody read any other space exploration/disaster stories where the protagonist wasn't a white bloke? I'd be interested to know what's out there, and how much difference it makes to those stories.
I honestly truly prefer the "competent white man" cliche to the "loser who is informed he is special/stumbles into dangerous secrets and then steps up to meet peoples' expectations of him". Mostly because in the second case, a geeky girl with whom I identify is usually a romantic trophy used to indicate that the character is a man now. I had that issue with Ready Player One. That being said, I wonder how much *more* interesting The Martian might have been if Mark Watney had been from a minority population and that experience had informed his experience on Mars. Basically if you blended The Martian with Slumdog Millionaire. (full disclosure: I haven't actually seen Slumdog Millionaire. I've only read a non-spoilery synopsis).
I took a quick look at a list of American NASA astronauts, and of the 328 listed, there are 43 female astronauts, or just over 13%. Granted, one can safely assume that the male/female ratio of astronauts plotted over time would be dramatically increasing from the initial condition of an all male astronaut corps. There was no quick and easy way to sort the list by race, but I did not find it particularly jarring or unrealistic to have a white male as the protagonist in this role. Perhaps that's just my bias showing as I am a white male aerospace engineer who applied to the astronaut program.Honestly though, I would think that someone's whiteness (or maleness) would have little or no effect in a situation where they are stranded alone. He can't exactly exercise white privilege (or perpetuate the patriarchy) when he is the only person on the entire planet. Then again, being white and male I am ill equipped to identify how someone with a different gender or racial/ethnic background might cope with that situation. I would imagine these issues would play a more significant roll if the protagonist was stranded not alone, but with a companion or companions (more "The Swiss Family Robinson in space" than "Robinson Crusoe in space").
You don't think having the commander of the mission be female was enough to 'balance' the gender roles?While this book was a fun and entertaining story with all too thin a veneer of hard fact accuracy, if one looks (or has met) any of the Apollo astronauts, they were selected for their unflappable natures.
For all the drawbacks, I felt The Martian was a far better story and a more accurate portrayal than Gravity - which truly (and yeah, I'll be in the minority) left me annoyed and disgusted.
The female character there would Never Ever have cleared the requirements to become a mission specialist in the first place. Worse, her hystericas, and worse still, she had to be 'rescued' from suicide by a MALE GHOST/HALLUCIANTION. Nuff said.
The sort of selection process involved with a Mars mission would absolutely sort the exceptionally resilient from a pool of already exceptional applicants.
I found it very refreshing not to be drowned in psychological boo-hooing for a change. I realize everyone has problems, but I'm pretty tired of abused orphans, miserable killers, and other marginalized angry, depressed, self-doubting, top-of-the-shitpile main characters, whining or dripping with sarcasm or resigned to their crap life.
The Martian was a nice change of pace.
I believe Andy Weir is a white guy - and while he may become an amazing writer, I get the feeling that we who liked this story are sucked in by the "voice" of Mark, and I'm thinking he would have had trouble getting into the headspace of an African American woman or whatever.
Not that authors shouldn't try, but with this whole story being Mark talking to us, I think he was smart to stick to a type of character he could really understand and give an authentic voice to.
Something else to keep in mind is that because Watney was selected as an astronaut for this mission, he's presumed to be extremely competent and was already subjected to rigorous psych evaluations to ensure that he would be unflappable in the face of these situations. NASA isn't going to send some random schlub like Homer Simpson on a mission, after all. ;)
This book isn't just about Watney. It is about the environment and the science. While Watney is the key character, he has just enough meat to his personality to keep you engaged in wanting him to make it. The parts I found interesting are all the crap that real astronauts going to Mars would have to deal with from that environment and the possible ways we could overcome the obstacles. If it had been another Robinson Crusoe novel I wouldn't have bothered to read it.
Keeping it light hearted helped me enjoy the novel.
Cliff wrote: "Something else to keep in mind is that because Watney was selected as an astronaut for this mission, he's presumed to be extremely competent and was already subjected to rigorous psych evaluations to ensure that he would be unflappable in the face of these situations."Not that I disagree, but NASA did select an astronaut who went into a crazy rage and wore diapers to go stalk a boyfriend...
Janny wrote: "For all the drawbacks, I felt The Martian was a far better story and a more accurate portrayal than Gravity - which truly (and yeah, I'll be in the minority) left me annoyed and disgusted.The female character there would Never Ever have cleared the requirements to become a mission specialist in the first place. Worse, her hystericas, and worse still, she had to be 'rescued' from suicide by a MALE GHOST/HALLUCIANTION. Nuff said."
I felt the same about Gravity as well.
I liked that Mark kept calm and collected the whole time. As many people have said, NASA wouldn't send someone up there who couldn't handle it.
thanks for the tip about spoilers.Just for clarification my problem c) is not so much about gender or ethnicity but rather more to do with individualism. The sense that one person with just a few resources and a "can do" attitude can do just about anything and is better suited to solve problems than all the best minds on earth combined.
That many of these "Heinlein Competent man" characters are also full of machismo and at least small amounts of misogony, homophobia and racism does not help (not saying Watney is these things himself) but it is not the main problem I have.
In many ways this is an issue of taste but with me over-familiarity with the character type in literature and thin characterization bred contempt.
Andrew wrote: "The 'competent white man' element is an interesting point. I have no problem with any individual case of a competent space protagonist being a white bloke, but the extent to which that's the norm i..."Does it actually say in the book anywhere that he is white? I don't remember reading/hearing that.
For me, Watney felt a bit like Peter Parker/Spider-man if he were trapped on Mars. He's constantly facing almost-certain doom and he gets quippy to deal with it. And as someone who has read more than a few Spidey comics, I really appreciate well-written wisecracks. I've read way too many comics and too many novels, for that matter, where one-liners often fall really flat and I find myself groaning/cringing. Watney's quips are spot-on and hilarious.Now, yeah, Watney doesn't have much in the way of a character arc, but this isn't the story of an ordinary guy thrust into extraordinary circumstances. The guy's a flippin' astronaut, he's been trained for the situation. I guess he could've gone total Looney Tunes, but his survival requires he remain relatively sane.
Does the character have to be white? No. Does the character have to be a man? No. This is Andy Weir's first novel, he's a white guy, I'd guess for his first book he wanted the main character to have a voice he could easily find. And the book's supporting characters fall all across the spectrum of race and gender, so I can't ding him too hard for Watney's male-pattern whiteness.
Though if THE MARTIAN is made into a movie, I'd have absolutely no issue with casting an actor of a different ethnicity/race in the role of Watney because his race has no impact on the storytelling whatsoever... or at least other than in the CNN coverage, it might effect the CNN coverage.
AndrewP wrote: "Does it actually say in the book anywhere that he is white? I don't remember reading/hearing that."Well now I feel like a jerk for projecting on the character. I can't recall if his race is ever mentioned, and it would make perfect sense for him to never have a reason to write in the logs about it. I already returned my copy to the library, so perhaps someone who still has theirs can answer this definitively.
I agree with Erik; I would have no dissonance with the hypothetical movie role being cast as non-white.
I did not have any problems with the main character. Having a character in deep depression or experiencing "cabin-fever" from isolation would be a totally different book. Perhaps interesting, but also a book done a thousand times, just not in SF. It is also worth mentioning that we only get to see what the main character chooses to put in the journal. Not all of his thoughts.
As for the "competent white man in space". Don't really remember reading any comment on his ethnicity. Competent yes, because "Idiot dies in the first chapter" would have been a really short book.
All inn all a very enjoyable read. Mostly because, and not despite, the main character brought humour into a interesting survival-situation.
Next up: what religion?Kidding!
If anything, Watney seemed totally Geeky Nerd which appears the same all over the world. Whatever the culture or race. They all start taking apart every mechanical thing in their parents house around the age of six, love science fiction movies, read manuals about engines for fun, and prefer taking apart and putting back together their phones more than talking on them.
Some have no sense of humor or cultural sense, while the other kind of geek learns to talk Klingon and attends Comic Con.
I loved Watney, whatever his race. I hope he stored his sperm before going to Mars.
When I was referring to Watney as "competent white male" I was referring to the character archetype or stock character that Watney is written as rather than specifically to his ethnicity.That said Watney is clearly written as a white male whether or not he is specifically identified as such in terms of his name, the way he speaks, his cultural references etc. I agree that just because I read him as white does not mean that if a film were being made of it then he could be cast as a different ethnicity but so much is changed in a book becoming a film that it does not really change anything.
Ben wrote: "That said Watney is clearly written as a white male whether or not he is specifically identified as such in terms of his name, the way he speaks, his cultural references etc."To be clear, I'm not picking here, just interested. But it is interesting that you think there is something specifically white about the name, and the way he speaks. I wasn't aware that that name was particularly 'white'. I'll admit I imagined the character that way as I guess, rightly or wrongly, it is the default in my mind, but I don't think I would be surprised if someone of that name was black. I also don't think I could identify race by the way a character spoke, unless English was not their first tongue and they were accented or chose incorrect words. I'm curious about what you feel it is about these things that clearly marks him as white.
I was picturing Matt Damon, but I don't remember anything that would make him be pigeonholed into being white. It's a little weird to say nothing marks him as black though - isn't that assuming the default is white and there has to be something identifiable in order to make a character non-white?
Aaron wrote: "AndrewP wrote: "Does it actually say in the book anywhere that he is white? I don't remember reading/hearing that."Well now I feel like a jerk for projecting on the character. I can't recall if ..."
When I read AndrewP's comment I had the same reaction as Aaron. Certainly I was assuming something that wasn't explicitly stated, showing the same bias that ticks me off. Shame on me.
Then I thought about it a bit more, and I concluded that, whether or not Watney's white, he certainly has very white-American tastes and cultural touchstones that supported my assumption. To give an alternative example, thought Ben Aaronovitch's Rivers of London does explicitly touch on race at times, there's a lot of more subtle stuff in there that implies the ethnicity of characters - word choices, music tastes, fashion and food preferences, things that don't say with absolute certainty what someone's ethnic and national background is, but that when put together paint a vivid picture. There's a distinctly black London vibe to parts of that book, at least to me as a reader.
Just because someone's ethnicity and cultural background aren't explicitly stated doesn't mean that they're absent.
Nope. Main character is my favorite part of the book. Perfect voice for me.
Ok I'm not making arguments to anyone here just playing Devils Advocate so to speak for some of this so stay with me and keep your tempers in check ok?I will Never get the whole Idea thats going on regarding White males being the end all evil of modern literature "Minor exaggeration :)"
I dont care if I read 100 books straight where the main hero protagonist whatever is a white male. If thats what the author saw then thats perfect and as the story should have been in his mind.
I also wouldn't care if it was a Chinese Jewish gay woman. Or a book that included not one single white Christian male. There is suddenly way too much need to create a false affirmative action in literature. And before someone gets all self righteously indignant and pissy moany over the fact that I had the nerve to say something that didnt further the case of equality for all no matter the cost let me explain something to you.
If you force an author, writer, director to use a "minority" (hate that usage here) of any kind just to start fulfilling the mindset that this needs to happen or someone will question their decision then you end up with many poorly written half-hearted examples of the included group. And nothing will kill momentum and progress faster than bad sales.
I can not see through the eyes of certain groups with the accuracy that that would make them a quality character and thats not fair, it actually detracts from what these characters races, sexes, religions etc deserve. I would rather have one extraordinarily written minority than 100 half-assed "I must make people happy so they don't whine" characters.
I also hate the fact that if you have the nerve to suggest what I just did, that you're a racist sexist etc which is bullshit, but won't stop someone from claiming that.
I just feel that falsely forcing a certain race into a role just to keep from being bitched at or fill some imagined quota is wrong and does no service to anyone.
I have no problem with more races, more woman, more gay, Transgendered, more varied religions all being portrayed but I do think it's wrong to force it. It's disingenuous to all involved the best characters evolve naturally otherwise you end up with unbelievable characters who kill a story and end any forward progress we may make in creating a better more diverse literary culture. So don't be hating on me for believing in quality over quantity.
More devil's advocate here dont get upset I swear I target no one and feel no ill will here this is a "Just sayin" moment so bear with...:)
Ok Mark Sounds white...the author is white and if he had started using for example urban slang to force and define the character as black then people would call racist as well.
Weir said nothing about Mark's race so in my eyes saying he sounded white is kind of racist what did he need to do in "your" eyes to make him "sound" black or Hispanic or whatever. Same with the name, my best friend for years was a black man named Michael McDonald In the end we all end up projecting into characters what we want to see anyway.
If you had wanted to see Mark as black it would have come through as in the end there really no difference between black and white or gay and straight except for stereo types right?
Yeah, the only way he sounds white is if we assume you need to modify a character away from the default white to another race.The reason to want diversity is because of representation. http://upworthy.tumblr.com/post/78754...
It's awesome to have role models you identify with.
Paul wrote: "Ok I'm not making arguments to anyone here just playing Devils Advocate so to speak for some of this so stay with me and keep your tempers in check ok?I will Never get the whole Idea thats going ..."
This sounds very much like the POV of a white male. Heh.
The 'based on merit'/anti- 'diversity for the sake of diversity' line of argument in this sort of discussion is, I feel, a bit of a red herring.
There's nothing wrong with having diverse or minority characters for the sake of diversity, particularly when they have been so underrepresented in genre fiction. There's also nothing wrong with an author writing a white male protagonist if that's what they see in their story.
It becomes problematic when publishers and other gatekeepers make misguided decisions like, "most SFF readers are white males, therefore they mainly want to read stories by white male authors featuring white male characters".
"Devil's Advocate," huh? Devil's? So you're knowingly playing the evil side of the argument? :P(That's me poking fun at your choice of words, not me being angry and trying to tear you down).
Urban slang: Not sure why an astronaut would be likely to use incorrect grammar when he wrote (Dammit Jim, he's a botanist, not a rap artist!). He also didn't use white southern slang (Time to grow potatoes; let's git 'er dun!), white surfer slang (whoa brah, that's bogus how my hab exploded!), or white Canadian verbal ticks (sorry, but I hate your disco, eh? sorry.).
Forcing a race onto a character: "Non-hispanic whites" make up about 63% of the population in the US, and men are just under 50% of the world's population; yet I challenge you to find anywhere northward of 25% of the SF/F books you've read in the last 10 years which feature female protagonists. I further challenge you to find more than 5% of SF/F books you've read that feature a main character who is described as anything but Caucasian.
It seems to me that in my own chosen reading, "while male" is forced as the default race/gender makeup of the main character. It's worse for SF/F TV and movies. And comic titles. I've lately started seeking out stories with characters who are not white men, but the fact that I'm not encountering greater than 50% female leads in my fantasy or scifi, or at least 37% of non-whites as leads as a matter of course means that there's something wrong... Is it my own in-grained desire to match up with the heroes of my entertainment? Are there that many diverse best-sellers/blockbusters/hit series in the SF/F genre that I'm somehow managing to avoid by accident?
Or is the problem with our society, who just assume that "white male" is the default, and any other choice has to be justified? Is it a problem to do with us just accepting the unjustifiably white maleness of our entertainment landscape because we're too complacent to demand that other people get at least a representative turn in the spotlight? I think so.
This is what really pisses me off though.Book I love "All you need is Kill"
Protagonist is an 18 year old Japanese kid...They are making a movie of it...awesome. Chance for a young japanese actor to get a leading role in a hollywood movie...double rainbows!
The lead is being played by Tom Cruise...WTF?! where is the racial diversity here it was handed to you on a silver platter and you screwed it you idiots for a crappy ass over the hill nut job way to go Hollywood
Paul wrote: "This is what really pisses me off though.Book I love "All you need is Kill"
Protagonist is an 18 year old Japanese kid...They are making a movie of it [...]
The lead is being played by Tom Cruise...WTF?!"
Yeah, that's some industrial strength horse pucky, and illustrates the point nicely. Even with a Japanese protagonist in the source material, a white actor ends up playing the lead. Can you imagine how hard it must be to get a generic lead character cast as anything but white male? Changing this kind of attitude starts with us pointing out that the default human being is not "white male". Make creators think about that, so that they justify their default character genders, races, religions and nationalities.
AndrewP wrote: "Does it actually say in the book anywhere that he is white? I don't remember reading/hearing that. "I'm listening to the book right now, and I don't remember his race being brought up, either. Since the character reminded me so much of astronaut Don Cheadle's role as Luke Graham in Mission To Mars, I've wondered if Watney wasn't based on him.
Paul wrote: "This is what really pisses me off though.Book I love "All you need is Kill"
The lead is being played by Tom Cruise...WTF?! where is the racial diversity here it was handed to you on a silver platter and you screwed it you idiots for a crappy ass over the hill nut job way to go Hollywood "
I saw the preview of this movie a few weeks back and didn't realise it was based on a book.
Hollywood is about making money, nothing else. Most people would go see a SF action movie staring Tom Cruise. A SF movie about an 18 year old Japanese kid would be disregarded as YA by the majority of the population.
Ah but I refuse to go see any movie If Cruise is in it and I know I'm not alone.
I'm another person who won't see a movie because Cruise is in it.
Well, I'll play.I like Cruise as an actor and I'll keep seeing his movies. Also, he's hot. As a man, he appears to have problems and delusions, as well as enormous heart, talent and successes.
So there. Next!
aPriL meows 'n growls TLDR wrote: "Well, I'll play.I like Cruise as an actor and I'll keep seeing his movies. Also, he's hot. As a man, he appears to have problems and delusions, as well as enormous heart, talent and successes.
S..."
Ok You're entitled to your opinions but me thinking Tom Cruise was one of the worst actors on the planet right up there with Nic Cage, John Travolta Arnold and Stallone has NOTHING to do with the fact that The book gave an opportunity to give a job to a Young Japanese actor as that was how the part was written and instead they gave to an old white guy with questionable talent and mental stability.
The Role as written Keiji 18 year old Japanese Male not 51 year old White American male.
Hollywood wants diversity so bad that they cast Johnny Storm as Black in the new Fantastic Four movie but when a part is written for an Asian Male they give it to a washed up old white guy....for what profits....yeah because Oblivion did so well...
I guess as a 61 year old mixed race female, who has become accustomed to men devaluing my comments in the moment, only to discover weeks later my ideas were adopted and attributed to a white male at the meeting, I've become resigned to the racism/sexism/ageism which permeates all of American society and classes. Recently, there has been talk that fashion magazines for women STILL use mostly Caucasian 16 year old models, sized 0, to represent readers.By the way, I also think Cage is playing to the bottom, that Stallone has purposely starred in movies with the simplest one syllable dialogues and one-note plots possible - but many 'A' list movie stars cannot make money unless they agree to appear in movies with heavy CGI, ten lines of dialogue, lots of guns and blood and vehicle wrecks. They have to sign up with small overseas shops that American movie theaters refuse to show if they want to really act, and not be talking alone to themselves in green screened warehouses.
In other words, they are dancing to the tune of the folks who buy tickets - young, white males.
If you want change, buy tickets to see movies that have black stars, Asian stars, and good plots.
He's the Botanist/Engineer, he's going to be an uber-competent loner by nature.
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Books mentioned in this topic
All You Need Is Kill (other topics)All You Need Is Kill (other topics)
The Swiss Family Robinson (other topics)
Robinson Crusoe (other topics)
Ready Player One (other topics)
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My problems with this are:-
a) As a character he is not very interesting. There is no character development (he started perfect and unflappable and he finished in the same way with no character arc).
b) I have seen this character with little variation many, many times before. All that has been done to update this character is pop culture references and modern vernacular.
c) I am not too comfortable with some of the underlying politics that go with this character in general in SF and specifically with Mark Watney. There is a real distrust for authority in these stock characters very often and a promotion of individualism. Not too sure how to add spoiler tags or I would give some concrete examples but as a psychotherapist I did struggle with the lack both to which Mark suffered or was affected by prolonged isolation and the implication throughout the book that someone who didn't deal with these sort of challenges with cheap quips and positivism would somehow have been a lesser person.