AFUTD: Can we talk about these aliens for a bit? (possible minor spoilers)

[Sean]

Maybe it's because I get most of my SF from tv and movies, but I feel like aliens in most sci-fi tend to fall into the "lumpy-head" category, rather than being something truly alien. Even stuff like Mass Effect tends to stick to the humanoid template - two arms, two legs, etc. But here, we've got at least a few really different aliens: the Tines, a dog-like race with collective-base sentience; the Skroderiders, which are literally plants on little carts; and the Aprahanti, or as Pham call them, "butterflies in jackboots." That's some pretty interesting stuff right there, and I love it.

[Trike]

The aliens in AFUTD definitely feel like a throwback to wacky aliens from the late '60s to early '80s, the kind you used to find in Niven's Known Space or Chalker's Well World.

While looking for pictures of Tines and Skroderiders, I found a drawing Vinge made in 1992 of Jefri and Flenser.

[Trike]

Another cool thing I found while searching for Skroderider pictures is this sunlight-seeking robot planter. This is an even better Skroderider than Vinge's version.

I try not to be species-ist, but if this thing talked it would freak me out.

http://greenupgrader.com/4182/plantbo...

[Brendan]

Can't believe Vinge was robbed of a best artist Hugo.

[Trike]

Vinge keeps referring to Tines as wolves and dogs and rats-with-snake-necks, but the image I have in my head is meerkats.





I'm only about halfway so I don't know if this comes up, but Tines could redefine the term "one man band."

[John (Taloni)]

So Hoodie-Sean, one of my concerns with this book was that the Tines seemed to be no more alien than a wolf pack. The potted plants were fairly cool as aliens go though.

[Tobias]

Well, they're pretty alien, being hive minds and all. It's like an immortal wolf pack that gains new memories and a changed personality every time someone new replaces a dead wolf in the pack.

[Sean]

Yeah, a bit, but a wolf pack is no more intelligent than an individual wolf. While an individual Tine isn't much smarter than a wolf, in a pack they can do some impressive things (like advanced mathematics in their collective heads).

It's also interesting to note how their collective-based intelligence/sentience has influenced their culture - packs tend to avoid physical contact as much as possible, so the interiors of their buildings tend to be large and open, and even then can only accommodate maybe a dozen or so packs. And since they share thoughts via a kind of sound, all the hard surfaces have to be covered to dampen any echos, lest they get confused.

[Trike]

I like Tom's comment on the podcast that when the Tines get into a large group they can't hear themselves think. Perfect summation. That also explains why they believe that using radio will allow them to stand on different mountaintops and still think as one. Once they develop whatever their version of headphones would be (acoustic girdles?), they'd be amazing spies and adventurers, because any person could spread his constituent parts over a huge area. And Bluetooth? Fuggedaboutit!

It's always interesting to read about gestalt characters, whose whole is greater than the sum of their parts. The idea that a Tine's mind is something "greater than" the collection of the individual brains in the small pack is fascinating. It's the Wisdom of the Crowd, but the crowd is all one person.

(view spoiler)[We see a few instances where a pack mind (or should we call it a pack personality?) dissolves when most of the members die, and Steel remarks repeatedly that he's impressed Flenser is still Flenser even though only two of the five Tines in that pack had a connection to quote-unquote "real" Flenser.

Which brings up the question of, "What does it mean to be a continuous person?" We have this idea that human beings are essentially replaced on the molecular level every seven years, so the person you were at 20 is not the person you are at 30. (Which I don't actually buy into, because otherwise scars, moles, freckles, tattoos, birthmarks, etc. would disappear, but the idea is out there.) When it comes to the Tines, though, that's literally the case.

Woodcarver is more than 600 years old, something she achieved through generations of inbreeding, with the specific goal of keeping her core personality intact by replacing infirm and dying members of the pack with her own offspring. (Is it incest if you're having sex with yourself?)

I'm only a little more than halfway through the book as I write this so I don't know if this is answered later, but based on the experiments done by Flenser and Steel I wonder is a Tine could maintain continuity of self by using any puppy rather than specifically their own puppy. Woodcarver seems to think not, but I suspect that might simply be because she hasn't thought of it. Steel's gambit of placing an adult in isolation until they go insane and kind of reset is probably too cruel an idea for Woodcarver to conceive of.

Lots of cool ideas. (hide spoiler)]

[Sean]

Well, I'm maybe 3/4 through, so I can answer your questions (I'll try to avoid spoilers, but I'll hide them anyway).

RE: radio

(view spoiler)[They do manage to make some radios (with guidance from the OOB's crew), and they're basically cloaks with all the electronic stuff woven in. (hide spoiler)]

RE: hidden stuff

(view spoiler)[A ways in, Woodcarver and the pilgrim (Peregrine? sp?) mate, and she gives birth to two puppies, one for each pack. She tells Johanna that because of this, the entity/personality known as Woodcarver will eventually cease to exist, and it's implied that puppies' will bring aspects of both parents personalities to the older packs they're incorporated into. (hide spoiler)]

[Trike]

1. Ha, I knew it!

2. I just passed that part this afternoon.

[RJ - Slayer of Trolls]

Trike wrote: "Vinge keeps referring to Tines as wolves and dogs and rats-with-snake-necks, but the image I have in my head is meerkats."

Now I can't get the song "Hakuna Matata" out of my head.