ARCHIVE - SEPTEMBER 2016 - The House of Twenty Thousand Books

[Kressel]

Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44

(view spoiler)[[1. What do you think was most pivotal in Chimen leaving his faith and venturing into Marxism / Communism? And why did he leave the Party in 1956? Have you ever joined a group / movement / project that you later denounced or deviated from their message?

2. What do you think most inspired Chimen? What events / people had a lasting impression on him?

As most of you know, I'm an Orthodox Jew, so I feel deeply connected to this book. What most of you don't know is that I was raised secular and became Orthodox at age 21 or so, but in my youth, like Chimen, I was a self-declared Communist as well. And now, like Chimen's father, I am parenting a son who has left the Torah. I'm finding the book particularly inspiring because Chimen and his father did not agree with each other, but they did not sever ties.

Jewish history is full of precisely this kind of swing from rebellion to tradition and back again. From the Age of Enlightenment to World War II, assimilation and rebellion was rampant, and because so many Jews lived in Czarist and then Communist Russia, the Communist influence caught them. These days, when Orthodox kids rebel, it's for plain old-fashioned capitalist pleasure. Of course, the Communists attracted youth through pleasure, too. They believed marriage was a social construct to be done away with just like class.

Clearly, Chimen, like his father, was of an intellectual bent, so he was an ideologue, not a pleasure-seeker. I once heard leftist philosophies described as "Messianism without the Messiah." It's no surprise that leftism appealed to so many Jews.

Why he left is that Communism proved to be bankrupt, but also, we all change as we age. Rebellion against our elders is very much a part of youth. But I will add, as my son would no doubt point out, that many of the Orthodox Jews who leave today choose to do so because they've stopped believing, and that's because they've seen too much hypocrisy from their parents and teachers. It's just that these days, they're not adopting ideologies like Communism anymore because that's not what anyone does these days. Some people are activists, and some people aren't, but most people are just busy trying to lead their lives as best and as enjoyably as they can.

I'll be inviting some formerly Orthodox friends to join this discussion. I hope they'll say yes. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Kressel wrote: "Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44

[1. What do you think was most pivotal in Chimen leaving his faith and venturing into Marxism / Communism? And why did he ..."

Kressel, thanks for your interesting story. (view spoiler)[There is so much truth in what you say. I am Jewish as well and practicing but my son has not gone to services in years. Though now that he is the father of 4 month old twin boys, he has started to show more interest and wanted naming ceremonies, etc.

I also feel connected to this book. I have family members on my husbands side who after WWII have made it a point to be secular and completely assimilated so they would not stand out as different in schools and society. Part of it due to anti-semitism. Our cousin Stanley Donen who was born and raised in Columbia, SC found it easier to move to NYC and Hollywood and become a movie director and producer of many popular musicals, like Singing in the Rain. He said he could not accept the anti-semitism and prejudices of the south so he had to move.

It is good to read your viewpoints. I hope you can get some of your formerly Orthodox friends to join the discussion as well. (hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

I wish the author was participating with us on this one.

[Michele]

Teri - Purchasing books

(view spoiler)[

What's not to love with printing like this? (hope the link works. Its to my photo on FB)

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fb...

(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kressel wrote: "Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44"

Kressel / Helga - Prologue II: Discussion Questions

Kressel, I was hoping we would hear from you this month. I'm glad you could join us. Would love to have your friends join us, as well. You all will bring a great perspective to the discussion.

(view spoiler)[I knew some of your background but not all. Thank you for sharing your story. And thank you, Helga, for sharing yours as well.

Have you guys noticed any trend up or down over the years in regards to younger people leaving the faith and / or returning? i.e. does it happen even more so today than in the past? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kressel - I agree, this would be an excellent book for the author to participate in.

[Kressel]

So how do we get him?

[Teri]

Michele wrote: "Teri - Purchasing books "

The link didn't work for me, Michele. (view spoiler)[ Likely because you have your FB secured (bravo to you!) from the public. :-) When I want to use personal photos, I add them to a private folder on Pinterest. I don't know if you use Pinterest, but that might be an option.


My Husband and I - pulled from a private folder on Pinterest (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions - Master Bedroom: The Citadel – 66 - 84

(view spoiler)[1. What do you think was the key to Chimen’s friendship with Henry Collins? The author talks about how Chimen was not able to finish their project on Karl Marx after Collins’ death and was not able to write his own autobiography with him.

2. Why do you think that Chimen chose to put the Marxist / Socialist rare books in his bedroom? Consider who is allowed into a person’s bedroom / who has access to these books.

3. What are your thoughts on the final story told at the end of the first chapter, where the author reflects on Chimen’s death?


Picasso’s Guernica (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kressel wrote: "So how do we get him?"

That would have to be something that Bentley would have to pursue. I looked at the author's page on GR and it doesn't look like he has a personal presence on here, but has an Author's Page.

[Kressel]

I'd love to email him. I have so many questions.

(view spoiler)[Mostly, I want to know if he's ever tried to contact Rav Abramsky's religious relatives, who'd be his distant cousins. It could make for an interesting follow-up book. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kressel wrote: "I'd love to email him. I have so many questions.

[spoilers removed]"

I suspect he's a hard person to get a hold of, from a cursory web search. He doesn't seem to have much of an online presence.

[Samanta]

Response to Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue I: Saying Goodbye – pages 1 – 22

(view spoiler)[1. What impresses you about Chimen?

Pretty much everything. The memory, the obsession with collecting books. I can't wait to read more.

2. I’ll pose the question to you that Chimen asked himself about his unfinished autobiography, “Why should a person feel the need to write about his own life?”

I guess, as we get older, we become more aware of our mortality and all of us (and those who say that they don't, probably lie), want to be remembered, want to be immortal, if not physically, then at least in other people's minds. (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Week One Discussion Questions – Reflection

(view spoiler)[1. Did you ever question your beliefs as you got older? Whether religious, political, etc.? What inspired you or caused you to reflect on different views?

Yes, definitely. I still do. As a girl, I went to church regularly, sang in the church choir, went to spirituality sessions with priests and nuns, confessed regularly, but then I just couldn't do it anymore. I had a bad experience with a nun whom I trusted, I learned history in school and didn't like what I learned, and after a while I just started questioning my own believes, not just the organized religion, but my faith, too.

2. Do you have any special memories of your grandparents? Other family members or friends when you were growing up?

I have two grandmas and one grandpa still living, but what I mostly remember (of the positive stuff, because there was a whole lot of negative, too), is when my grandpa would swing me on his knee and when he bought me my first children's book with letters (I kept that one for years!). (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Response to Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44

(view spoiler)[1. What do you think was most pivotal in Chimen leaving his faith and venturing into Marxism / Communism? And why did he leave the Party in 1956? Have you ever joined a group / movement / project that you later denounced or deviated from their message?

If I got this right, Chimen's family was not of the wealthy sort, and he was born in a world where there was a deep divide between the rich and the poor, the noble and the common. I've never read Marx since I'm not really interested in the doctrine, but to him it might have seemed like the perfect solution to the problems of people, like Utopia.

He left the party after he could no longer ignore or justify to himself the bad things done by the Communist party.

I honestly can't remember. Must have then been something very important. :)

2. What do you think most inspired Chimen? What events / people had a lasting impression on him?

Definitely his father and the collection he had. (hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Teri wrote: "Kressel wrote: "Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44"

Response to Teri's Question

(view spoiler)[Teri wrote: Have you guys noticed any trend up or down over the years in regards to younger people leaving the faith and / or returning? i.e. does it happen even more so today than in the past?

It seems to me that throughout Jewish history, different generations of Jews have rebelled and then come back. The Age of Enlightenment was a time of mass assimilation, and it lasted all the way until World War II. But in the 1960's, when so many youth were exploring different paths to spirituality, many Jews began to reverse the trend of their grandparents and return. I joined the return trend in the 1990's, and when I was a student in Israel, we considered ourselves a movement - the teshuva movement. And now the youth are moving away again. I see it with my own son, and I see it with my friends' kids. What causes it? I'd say rebellion is natural to the human psyche, but on the "return" side, so is Jewish pride. I've still got more to say on this subject, but it'll have to be later. It might be easier to take specific questions. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue I: Saying Goodbye – pages 1 – 22."

Samanta - Prologue I

(view spoiler)[I agree with you. I think it is also that you want to be able to tell generations after you what you've learned and pass on family stories. It is sometimes about keeping legacy alive. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Week One Discussion Questions – Reflection"

Samanta - Reflection

(view spoiler)[I think it's a pretty natural thing to question what you've been taught, especially when you branch out on your own. Most people need to create their own individual identities, different than their parents. Sometimes, they will come back to those familial values.

I love your story about your Grandpa. I imagine you had a great relationship with him. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44."

Samanta - Prololgue II / Karl Marx

(view spoiler)[You have that right. I don't know much about Marx, myself. I read Communist Manifesto in college for a Philosophy class, but don't remember much about it or about Marx outside of that.

The History Channel has a page on him with a video: http://www.history.com/topics/karl-marx

by Karl Marx (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kressel wrote: "Teri wrote: "Kressel wrote: "Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44"

Kressel - Age of Enlightenment

(view spoiler)[Thank you for that background. My knowledge is weak in this area. I am looking forward to your expanding on Jewish faith / tradition as we move through the book. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions - The Hallway: An Extraordinary Portal – 85 - 105

(view spoiler)[1. What similarities can you make between the Abramsky family and the Nirenstein family? What differences do you see?

2. Do you think that Chimen and Mimi would have fallen in love had one of them not been a part of the Communist party?


Holly Lodge Estate Area just off of Hampstead Heath (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Teri wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Week One Discussion Questions – Reflection"

Samanta - Reflection


(view spoiler)[Still have. He's alive and kicking at 73. He is a bit more subdued after my mom's death (which is natural), but his humorous nature is still there. I love him to death, even though he made me angry many times in my life. :) (hide spoiler)]

[Samanta]

Teri wrote: "Samanta wrote: "Response to Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44."

Samanta - Prololgue II / Karl Marx

I'll have to take a look at that. Thanks Teri!

[Teri]

Eli wrote: "Kressel wrote: "Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44."

Hi Eli. Thanks for joining our conversation. We look forward to your input.

A couple of housekeeping items. This is a single threaded discussion where everyone reads at a different pace. In order not to spoil points, themes, information, etc., please use spoiler tags when discussing things pertaining to the book. Some conversations may seem like they are not book specific, but do hint or discuss the themes, so please update your post to add the spoiler tags. Thank you! It is appreciated. See messages 4 and 5 of this thread for specific directions, should you not be familiar with the spoiler tags.

Also, please follow our citation rules. Just put a citation of the Maimon book at the bottom to look like this:

by Solomon Maimon (no photo)

Response to Eli - BT's

(view spoiler)[For those of us not familiar with Judaism - can you tell us what BTs are? (hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Eli wrote: "Kressel wrote: "Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44"

Response to Eli

(view spoiler)[Eli, I'm so glad you joined! From what I've observed in my son, the emotional rejection of Orthodoxy came before the intellectual one. But yes, people do leave because they stop believing, and no, perhaps kids aren't leaving just for superficial things like the freedom to own a cell phone. Even still, ideology doesn't seem to attract anyone in this generation the way it did in Chimen Abramsky's.

It's not like the 1960's either. Youth don't live for causes in the same way. I came of age in the 80's, and people made fun of me for being a 60's wannabe. But since so many ideologies and causes ended up souring, perhaps today's youth have a more healthy and pragmatic approach.

Re souring ideologies: One of my favorite parts of the video at the Strand is when Sasha Abramsky said that his grandfather was deeply ashamed for having believed in a utopian vision that turned out to be a dystopia. So I guess what I'm trying to say is people aren't given to utopian visions anymore, or at least, they're more skeptical than they used to be.

Video citation: https://www.goodreads.com/videos/1083...
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kressel wrote: "Eli wrote: "Kressel wrote: "Week One Discussion Questions - Prologue II: Saying Hello – pages 23 – 44"

Spoiler tags, please. Thank you!

[Kressel]

Answer to Teri re "BT"

(view spoiler)[Definition of BT = a Jew raised secular who chose to become Orthodox.

I'm a BT myself and proud of it. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Kressel wrote: "Definition of BT = a Jew raised secular who chose to become Orthodox.

I'm a BT myself and proud of it."

Thanks, please be sure to put your response above in spoiler tags.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Brina - you must use spoilers: (Teri - please send Brina a note on how to do this):

Brina stated:

(view spoiler)[I won't have time to read this until next month. But @Eli- welcome. I am one of the BTs who used organized religion as my rebellion. I can see why an FFB (orthodox from birth) would rebel in the opposite direction though. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Eli - you must use spoilers - this is a single thread discussion - it is not fair to the folks who are reading behind you. - (Teri - please send Eli a note on how to do this) - Eli welcome to the discussion - you will get the hang of the single thread discussions in no time:

Eli wrote: (view spoiler)[
These days, when Orthodox kids rebel, it's for plain old-fashioned capitalist pleasure. ..."

I am one of the formerly Orthodox friends Kressel invited. Thanks for the invitation, Kressel, I hope I can get my hands on a copy of the book soon and catch up.

I just have to take exception with your analysis of why Orthodox kids rebel. You say yourself that your son would remind you that kids leave Orthodoxy because they don't believe in its basic tenets but you don't say whether you agree or disagree. You also say that there's an element of childhood rebellion - does that apply to those who grew up outside Orthodoxy and joined it later in life, such as BTs?

In general I don't think kids these days are any more or less shallow than their predecessors: we may not all be Chimen Abramsky or Solomon Maimon An Autobiography but I'd argue that we all leave for reasons similar to theirs.

Now, off to the library to better engage in this debate ;) (hide spoiler)]

Additionally Eli you need to cite other books mentioned. If unsure how to do this - go to the help desk folder and look for the Mechanics of the Board thread. You can check message one for the link if you are unable to find it on your own.

by Salomon Maimon (no photo)

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions - The Hallway: An Extraordinary Portal – 106 - 126

(view spoiler)[1. What are your thoughts on the way Chimen kept his political leaning out of public view to save his father any embarrassment within his religious community?

2. The last line of the chapter is a quote by Rabbi Yaakov, “Prepare yourself in the hallway so you may enter the banquet hall.” What are your thoughts on this line in relation to Chimen’s home? What do you think we’ll find in other rooms?


Christ Church, Spitalfields. (hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Answer to Teri wrote: "Week Two Discussion Questions - The Hallway: An Extraordinary Portal – 106 - 126

(view spoiler)[1. What are your thoughts on the way Chimen kept his political leaning out of public view to save his father any embarrassment within his religious community?"

I LOVE that. But I think my favorite story of all (I hope it was in this section) was how Chimen went running to check on his father during the London blitz.

I don't think I can emphasize enough how much this means to me, knowing that a gadol (leading rabbi) like Rav Chatzkel maintained relations with his Communist son. Many Ultra-Orthodox parents with rebelling and atheist kids need to hear about this, and I'm not saying that to find fault with anyone. For me, it's affirmation that my liberal approach is all right. Gosh, how I'd love to tell Sascha Abramsky all this! (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Sasha Abramsky is a GoodReads author so I am also wondering how he could join us for a question or 2. Can he be notified that we are reading his book?

[Helga]

I sent him an email to let him know we are reading his book this month. I hope he will contact us.

[Teri]

Kressel wrote: "Answer to Teri wrote: "Week Two Discussion Questions - The Hallway: An Extraordinary Portal – 106 - 126."

Kressel - Chimen's relationship with his father

(view spoiler)[It just goes to show you that it's worth understanding history as it can have a positive influence today, in so many ways. Love can permeate all boundaries. You do not have to agree with someone's religion or politics to still love. This is a message that many forget today, not just for our youth.

Do you think Chimen had some doubts about the path he was taking and just didn't want to burn his bridges with his father? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Helga wrote: "I sent him an email to let him know we are reading his book this month. I hope he will contact us."

Thanks, Helga. I knew he had a GR's Author's page, but if you look at it, at the bottom it shows he has not "claimed it", which means that either a GR Librarian or a publisher has created that page. I noticed his webpage / FB and such were outdated. We'll see if he responds.

[Helga]

I'll let you know as soon as I hear from him.

[Helga]

Teri, I heard from Sasha Abramsky. He said he was honored that we were reading his book this month. He will be happy to join us in the discussion. I sent Bentley the email I received from him to contact him on how to get involved.

[Teri]

Helga wrote: "Teri, I heard from Sasha Abramsky. He said he was honored that we were reading his book this month. He will be happy to join us in the discussion. I sent Bentley the email I received from him to co..."

Excellent news, Helga!

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Very good news Helga and I have reached out to him providing the links - I hope he can find out that way because Teri is correct.

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions - Mimi

(view spoiler)[We haven't talked much about the women in Chimen's life. There seemed to be some dynamic women in the family.

1. What are your thoughts on the women of Chimen's family?

2. What was Mimi's relationship like with Chimen's family and Chimen's with Mimi's?

3. Mimi and Chimen at times were very different, she liked the sea and to swim, he did not. She wrote an autobiography to him of her past loves, he preferred to talk about them. On page 66, the author talks about the biography that Chimen wrote of himself for the Communist Party. The tone of it was different than was expected for Chimen and it turns out that it was written in Mimi's handwriting. What drew the two together? Was it just their political interests? Do you think they had any differing views?


Miriam (Mimi) and Chimen Abramsky at Sotheby's (hide spoiler)]

[Michele]

Response: The Hallway: An Extraordinary Portal - 106- 126

(view spoiler)[ 1. What are your thoughts on the way Chimen kept his political leaning out of public view to save his father any embarrassment within his religious community?

I see it as a peace keeping measure. I do something similar with my mom and step-dad, especially when I am visiting them. They are right wing christian, so I spare them my agnostic leanings and they do the same for me. Worth it in order to keep a good relationship going.

2. The last line of the chapter is a quote by Rabbi Yaakov, “Prepare yourself in the hallway so you may enter the banquet hall.” What are your thoughts on this line in relation to Chimen’s home? What do you think we’ll find in other rooms?

The hallway is the portal to the rest of the home, if I have the layout correct in Chimen's home. This layout, in my mind, would be similar to my late grandparent's Victorian farmhouse. The hallway was where you took off your coat and boots, right next to the stair case to the upper level. You do "get ready" in the hallway. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Michele wrote: "Response: The Hallway: An Extraordinary Portal - 106- 126."

Michele - Politics / Religion / Family

(view spoiler)[I think it's good to see that people can agree but disagree. Nice to see when family can get past differences and still be a family. These days, it seems that many people feel they need to argue a point or can only be friends if they have the same views.

I love the way the author describes the hallway as that portal into the home. It is very true. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week Two Discussion Questions - Wrapping Up The Week - Your Favorite Room

(view spoiler)[We've been introduced to the Master Bedroom and the Hallway this week.

1. Did you have a favorite room from this week's reading?

2. The author talks about the many visitors to Chimen and Mimi's home, describing them as the "hallway people". Was there a particular visitor, friend, family member that caught your attention?

(hide spoiler)]

[Kaleen]

That is so exciting Helga! Thanks!

Week Two Discussion Questions - Master Bedroom: The Citadel – 66 - 84
(view spoiler)[
1. What do you think was the key to Chimen’s friendship with Henry Collins? The author talks about how Chimen was not able to finish their project on Karl Marx after Collins’ death and was not able to write his own autobiography with him. This was very sweet. Clearly they were best friends. I think Collins must have balanced him out, specifically through writing. Without him, it just wasn't the same.

2. Why do you think that Chimen chose to put the Marxist / Socialist rare books in his bedroom? Consider who is allowed into a person’s bedroom / who has access to these books. It seems like this is where he would keep his most prized books, the ones he can reread over and over. It makes sense. I think we are all the same way in some sense.

3. What are your thoughts on the final story told at the end of the first chapter, where the author reflects on Chimen’s death? I thought it was really sad! Definitely some anxiety surrounding Chimen's old age and his last days with his books.
(hide spoiler)]

[Kaleen]

Week Two Discussion Questions - The Hallway: An Extraordinary Portal – 106 - 126
(view spoiler)[
1. What are your thoughts on the way Chimen kept his political leaning out of public view to save his father any embarrassment within his religious community? It makes sense. Why deal with the drama and family angst that would come along with it. I think we all have done this in some ways. Even if we are adults, they are still our parents.

2. The last line of the chapter is a quote by Rabbi Yaakov, “Prepare yourself in the hallway so you may enter the banquet hall.” What are your thoughts on this line in relation to Chimen’s home? What do you think we’ll find in other rooms? Chimen's home is such a treasure trove! You need to know what you are getting into when you move further inside. More bookish goodness!
(hide spoiler)]

[Kaleen]

Kressel - Chimen's relationship with his father
(view spoiler)[
I am really fascinated by Yehezkel. It must have been tough growing up with such a well known and religiously powerful father. I love the fact that he has his own biographer (Well I guess Chimen has one now too). How many of us can say a grandparent or great-grandparent has a biographer.
(hide spoiler)]

[Kaleen]

Week Two Discussion Questions - Mimi
(view spoiler)[
We haven't talked much about the women in Chimen's life. There seemed to be some dynamic women in the family.

1. What are your thoughts on the women of Chimen's family? They all seem to be very strong women who grew up in good families. I love Mimi. She had a mind of her own!

2. What was Mimi's relationship like with Chimen's family and Chimen's with Mimi's? I think it was tougher for Mimi relating to Chimen's family vs the other. Mimi's family seems more laid back, so it was probably easier for Chimen to fit in. The book doesn't really talk about what it was like for Mimi.

3. Mimi and Chimen at times were very different, she liked the sea and to swim, he did not. She wrote an autobiography to him of her past loves, he preferred to talk about them. On page 66, the author talks about the biography that Chimen wrote of himself for the Communist Party. The tone of it was different than was expected for Chimen and it turns out that it was written in Mimi's handwriting. What drew the two together? Was it just their political interests? Do you think they had any differing views? I think they balance each other out. It was their political views that initially drew them together, but their differences kept them together. She left the Communist Party before Chimen, so they didn't share exactly the same ideas, but I imagine they fed each others' thoughts.
(hide spoiler)]

[Kressel]

Helga wrote: "Teri, I heard from Sasha Abramsky. He said he was honored that we were reading his book this month. He will be happy to join us in the discussion. I sent Bentley the email I received from him to co..."

Thank you so much! I am sooooo looking forward to this!

[Helga]

Kressel wrote: "Helga wrote: "Teri, I heard from Sasha Abramsky. He said he was honored that we were reading his book this month. He will be happy to join us in the discussion. I sent Bentley the email I received ..."

Yes, let's hope he joins us. It'll be good.