NPR's 100 Best Science Fiction and Fantasy

[C. John]

Anna you reminded me of an SF story from the seventies. An invading alien armada has sent some scouts ahead to verify that Earth is ripe for conquest. The scouts think they have stumbled onto a private museum with lots of carefully preserved history books. After perusing some of the material they quickly panic, contact the invasion fleet and tell them that Earth has powerful protectors they were unaware of and that the invasion must be called off. At the end of the story the reader discovers that historical texts they were reading were those in Forrest J. Ackerman's collection of pulp magazines and comic books.

[Grazzit]

Interesting, what i find even more interesting is that while i liked a great many books on the chart None of my Fav's were there.

[Trike]

Anna wrote: "Gaines wrote: "I also love it when authors (or producers of shows) spend time thinking about how relatively quickly language morphs and grows....One thing I wonder is, how many of our lesser-used l..."

Even variations of current languages are dead. If we were to travel back in time to watch a Shakespeare play so we could experience it in the original setting and meet Bill himself afterwards, we'd have to go back about 5 years before opening night, because we wouldn't be able to understand what anyone was saying. Yet we'd still be speaking English.

A linguistics book I read some years ago had a great story about a couple guys about 500 years ago who set off on a raft down the Thames (whose name alone should tell you how much English pronunciation has changed over the centuries). They decided to just go as far as they could before they could no longer understand the locals. They got about 25 miles before they stopped at a village where they couldn't understand anyone, yet they were all speaking English.

Some years ago there was a movement in Israel to adopt ancient Hebrew as their official language, but they immediately ran into the problem that they would no longer be able to talk about the modern world. Not only does ancient Hebrew not have words for everyday things like telephone, television, airplane or automobile, it doesn't even have a word for "blue." The language still exists and people still speak it, but it's utterly useless for day-to-day usage. You can't effectively communicate the idea of "I'll call you." Even repurposing and recombining words was rejected since that defeats the purpose of using the language. You might as well just say "car" rather than some clumsy creation like "chariot without a horse."

[R.]

Gaines wrote: "One thing I wonder is, how many of our lesser-used languages will be extinct..."

My feeling here is that once computer translation becomes good enough no language need ever die again. A side point on this is that I heard that a certain Well Known Software Company decided not to support Swahili or Landsmal (dialect Norwegian), but free open-source support now exists for both.

This may be enough to allow both to survive.

[Kirsten]

How did we get from what sci-fi book to read next to politics and moonbases and what makes us human?

[C. John]

Basically all this stems from a post made earlier in the thread about SF predicting the future (and it's lack of success at same). I am not sure all of us have considered the list as a what to read next one (I know I am not) but more of a list of what some people consider the best SF books out there.

[Trike]

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "How did we get from what sci-fi book to read next to politics and moonbases and what makes us human?"

Evolution in action, baby.

Also a touch of ADHD.

[Trike]

R. wrote: "Gaines wrote: "One thing I wonder is, how many of our lesser-used languages will be extinct..."

My feeling here is that once computer translation becomes good enough no language need ever die agai..."

Is "archived" synonymous with "alive"? If no one actively speaks a language, won't it fall into the same hole as the Hebrew I mentioned above?

[Micah]

Hmm, it's obvious from the flowchart that whoever put it together has a very different understanding of a lot of those books than I do.

Dune, for example, is only reachable along the "war buffs" line. Have you ever noticed how very little actual combat is written in detail in Dune? Wipe your memory of the movie and TV miniseries, or go back and read it again, Herbert almost always skips the actual fighting. Because it's not ostensibly about war, it's a book about politics, ecology, and most of all the transformation of Paul from a boy to a full-grown adult play-uh. War just happens to be part of that, but not an important enough part to actually be written in detail.

[Kirsten]

We should make a flowchart of this thread... LOL!

[Jemima]

I did a history of science and technology course a few years ago (15) which has probably been one of the most useful courses I ever did.

Technological change leaps forward in times of war. Mostly in weaponry, but if you think about it in the moon landing context, that was the cold war space race, so the theory still applies. And most of the scifi we were talking about re moon-bases were written during that time, so not surprising they thought the space race would continue.

I think we all assume we'll be talking English in the future. Maybe we'll be talking a dumbed down version of Chinese for all of us that don't master it. But since we're writing mostly for English readers, we don't have much choice ;) although I do refer to it as 'Standard' as have many other writers before me!

[Jemima]

Referring back to the boys/sex issue, I don't think I knew more than two other girls who read scifi when I was in my twenties.

But it might interest you to know that I have a Goodreads ad running at present with the 'target' set to 'females who read scifi'. It generally gets just 173 presentations a day. When I had it open to a wider range of tickboxes it got up to as many as 4000 a day (limited mostly by the algorithm that runs the cost of these things).

[Trike]

Jemima wrote: "Technological change leaps forward in times of war. Mostly in weaponry, but if you think about it in the moon landing context, that was the cold war space race, so the theory still applies. And most of the scifi we were talking about re moon-bases were written during that time, so not surprising they thought the space race would continue."

Although there is the fact America has only *not* been at war for something like 4 years out of its 240 years of existence.

I took a lot of heat in the early days of the Internet when I mentioned I was reading a book about the history of inventions and suddenly realized that all of the things we attribute to NASA actually had nothing to do with the space race. NASA has given us some cool stuff, but we literally wouldn't miss those inventions if they'd never happened. Things like improved tennis shoes and lighter ceramics.

I suspect it's because everything was tagged with the moniker "Space Age!" to make it sound sexy and appealing. In NASA's defense, they've never taken credit for all the things people assume they created. But boy-howdy people were enraged when I brought that up.

[Jemima]

It doesn't mean NASA invented it! There are plenty of other companies busy inventing things, but the imperative for change tends to come from war or basic survival, (like water technologies).

The whole area of polymer technologies erupted at the same time - partly because there was a need for lightweight strong stuff in the space programme - then when they don't sell there, people discover other ways of using it. With our consumer society the impetus has changed from government-led to consumer-buck led.

I was at a 'work-station of the future' seminar in 1994 where one guys described all the networking stuff we take for granted now, including sending things from a watch from our beach huts to the poor dudes stuck in an office... His punchline was they could do all that right now (1994), but that batteries were the limiting factor. Remember those old 'brick' mobiles phones?

So then they got to work on battery technology...

[C. John]

Yeah. I chuckle when I watch an old "Wycliffe" episode and after talking on his phone he has to push the antenna down and the fold it up to put in his pocket. And those shows aren't that old. Mind you does anyone else out here remember Napoleon Solo talking to his pen.

[Kirsten]

Those Get Smart shoe-phones with the rotary dial!

[C. John]

We didn't have push button phones back then of course. I remember having to use rotary dial phones. Not that hard to do really. Get Smart of course was a spoof of the spy genre so the shoe phone made sense in that context.

[R.]

Jemima wrote: "Remember those old 'brick' mobiles phones?"

Remember? I've still got mine. Doesn't work any more but I'd hate to lose it.

[Kirsten]

You guys had so much fun with this flowchart - have you ever tried this?

http://www.literature-map.com/

[Gaines]

R. wrote: "My feeling here is that once computer translation becomes good enough no language need ever die agai..."

Perhaps. But as a professional translator, and as one who has spent years adding to the database of a certain Well Known Software Company's translation engine, I can say with utter confidence that "computer translation" is not going to be anywhere close to perfect within our lifetimes, or likely even those of our children.

In fact, I expect that a computer will not actually be able to translate as well as a human can until artificial intelligence has been perfected and goes live. The nature of language is just way more complex than drawing from a big vocabulary & database of recognized patterns.

[Gaines]

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "You guys had so much fun with this flowchart - have you ever tried this?

http://www.literature-map.com/"

Haha I liked the graphic, when the authors' names are populating onto the screen :-) Very cool-looking.

[Kirsten]

Gaines wrote: "R. wrote: "My feeling here is that once computer translation becomes good enough no language need ever die agai..."

Perhaps. But as a professional translator, and as one who has spent years adding..."

So what do you think of that - I think it may be Watson - computer being forced fed romance novels?

[C. John]

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "You guys had so much fun with this flowchart - have you ever tried this?

http://www.literature-map.com/"

Well this could be fun. I tried it and must say that only on this map could I find Hans Kung and Stephen King even remotely linked.

[Gaines]

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "So what do you think of that - I think it may be Watson - computer being forced fed romance novels? "

Haha, I think Watson's learning patterns, and people's reactions to them, are funny :-) And especially how it couldn't stop saying "bullshit" etc after acquiring so much slang. I don't think they should have wiped its memory to start over with a "clean" slate, because... let's face it... no one's speech is perfectly "clean."

[C. John]

My 12 year old decided to check out Rick Riordan on the ;map to see what other authors he might like to try.

[Jemima]

That map is fascinating!

[Ally]

I love the map (and the flowchart). Thank you.

[Micah]

Trike wrote: "I took a lot of heat in the early days of the Internet when I mentioned I was reading a book about the history of inventions and suddenly realized that all of the things we attribute to NASA actually had nothing to do with the space race..."

But NASA isn't the only player in technology, even when it comes to the space race. Just look at GPS, a technology that has pretty much become thoroughly integrated with everyday life:

http://www.pcworld.com/article/200027...

"It all started with Sputnik."

It was also talked about on Science Friday on NPR: http://www.npr.org/2010/12/24/1323117...

Sputnik + academic curiosity + atomic subs + cold war = GPS

[Micah]

Kirsten *Dogs Welcome - People Tolerated" wrote: "You guys had so much fun with this flowchart - have you ever tried this?

http://www.literature-map.com/"

Eeeeew! Heinlein and Ayn Rand equidistance from Philip K Dick? Calling shenanigans on that one!

[C. John]

If they are on opposite sides of the map that might make sense. I can't make a comparison as I haven't read Ayn Rand,

[Trike]

John wrote: "If they are on opposite sides of the map that might make sense. I can't make a comparison as I haven't read Ayn Rand,"

Have you ever bitten your lip and then five minutes later bitten it again, then shout out a curse word? Reading Rand is the same feeling.

[Heather]

That was the funniest thing I've heard all week.

[Anna]

Micah wrote: "Have you ever noticed how very little actual combat is written in detail in Dune? ... Herbert almost always skips the actual fighting. Because ... it's a book about politics, ecology, and most of all the transformation of Paul from a boy to a full-grown adult play-uh. War just happens to be part of that, but not an important enough part to actually be written in detail. ..."

That may be true. But there is unfortunately a massive bias in the literary snob community that "you should skip the fight scenes because nobody wants to read them." (Uhm ... my readers disagree). The truth is, a lot of writers have no idea how to write a battle scene that works, so they just skip over it. That's why writers who actually have taken a martial art or served in the military make such great action writers.

[Kirsten]

Anna wrote: "Micah wrote: "Have you ever noticed how very little actual combat is written in detail in Dune? ... Herbert almost always skips the actual fighting. Because ... it's a book about politics, ecology,..."

LOL! That reminds me of an old movie I saw. My dad and I always thought it was an interesting editorial point to edit all the action scenes out of the film.

[Heather]

I'm not sure how to feel about fight scenes. I have read a few sci-fi where the author did extensive fight scenes. For example - The Darwin Elevator had good ones, but eventually I felt like I was reading a screen play (the author writes screen plays so...). Then there are authors with military background that right extremely realistically (ie Dauntless) but it gets fairly boring to read an entire book of just space battles for me.

[C. John]

Of course one has to remember that most people only have experience with terrestrial warfare and battle in space will be different. You have to go from thinking in two dimensions to thinking in three dimensions. Not everyone is able to do that.

[Trike]

Heather wrote: "Then there are authors with military background that right extremely realistically (ie Dauntless) but it gets fairly boring to read an entire book of just space battles for me. "

Yeah, a lot of battles are just war porn: they exist for the sake of existing. Which is fine if you're into that sort of thing, but refighting the Battle of the Bulge except in space is less interesting if it doesn't move the plot forward or reveal something about the characters.

Guardians of the Galaxy had both kinds of battles. The first time Quill, Gamora, Rocket and Groot encounter each other, they all have different motivations and goals, which keeps the fight lively and interesting. Quill wants to escape with the orb so he can sell it, Gamora wants the orb to give to her boss, Rocket and Groot want the bounty for Quill. So you've got this three-way running battle with reversals and twists where you see the different capabilities of the characters. Later on when Ronan shows up, the battle is just boring because it's merely an action scene, with a chase and some explosions.

[AndrewP]

Sometimes I wish more authors would gloss over the fight scenes as they tend to do a lack-luster job with them. The more you read from masters such as Bernard Cornwell, David Gemmel and to a certain extent David Weber, the more bad fight scenes stand out.

For me, the worst one we have read recently was City of Stairs. There was one fight scene with a monster straight out of Sharknado and then a potentially interesting fight between fleets of airships was glossed over with no details.

[Micah]

Anna wrote: " The truth is, a lot of writers have no idea how to write a battle scene that works, so they just skip over it...."

I don't disagree. But in the case of Dune, I don't think that's what was going on. I just think that war itself wasn't a major theme in the book.

And anyway if you leave out the battle scenes for whatever reason, I still don't see how your book would end up along a SciFi (yes) - Cyberpunk (no), In Space (yes), War Buff (yes, I watch the military channel exclusively) flowchart path.

[Heather]

AndrewP wrote: "Sometimes I wish more authors would gloss over the fight scenes as they tend to do a lack-luster job with them. The more you read from masters such as Bernard Cornwell, David Gemmel and to a certai..."

I'm glad someone else thought that scene in City of Stairs was silly.

[Deb]

Random question: can anyone think of any good space opera (or even sci-fi) novels which prominently feature alien oceans? It just occurred to me I don't know that many....

Stations of the Tide by Michael Swanwick seemingly effortlessly created a strange and atmospheric world just by using the ocean as a driving force for the novel. Can anyone think of any others?

[Trike]

Deborah wrote: "Random question: can anyone think of any good space opera (or even sci-fi) novels which prominently feature alien oceans? It just occurred to me I don't know that many....
.."

Off the top of my head, there was Cachalot by Alan Dean Foster.

Stanislaw Lem's Solaris is a sentient world-ocean, but it's not really an "ocean story" per se.

Windhaven by George R.R. Martin and Lisa Tuttle takes place on an alien planet that's primarily ocean. I remember thinking Updraft sounded like it without the water.

Startide Rising by David Brin has humans and dolphins crash landed in an alien ocean.

Edit: I think two of the stories in James Blish's The Seedling Stars involve alien oceans. That book is about engineering humans to suit alien planets rather than terraforming the planets to suit us.

[R.]

Mission of Gravity by Hal Clement has as one of the major characters the delightfully likable Barlennan, an alien sea captain and adventurer- even if the sea is liquid methane.

[Deb]

Trike wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Random question: can anyone think of any good space opera (or even sci-fi) novels which prominently feature alien oceans? It just occurred to me I don't know that many....
.."

Off ..."
Cachalot... that rings a faint, long ago bell. It was one of the Humanx novels was it? Perhaps I should hunt it down. I loved Orphan Star with a deep undying passion when I was a teenager and it still bears re-reading every now and again. James Blish... yes, pretty sure I read that but a re-read would be good. I'll keep an eye out for Mission of gravity also.

Windhaven looks good, on the to-read shelf with it!

Thanks for the recommendations guys - I am trying to slant my reading in 2016 toward oceanic/marine/sea themes, but I have missed out of sci-fi a bit.

[Anna]

Deborah wrote: "Random question: can anyone think of any good space opera (or even sci-fi) novels which prominently feature alien oceans? It just occurred to me I don't know that many....."

Space Opera books? Not so much. Sci-fi? Start with Jules Verne.



And of course Solaris:



Michael Chrichton - Sphere



China Meillville - Scar



David Brin - Startide Rising ... and don't forget when the asteroids hit in Lucifer's Hammer as well though not otherwise water-related



Frank Herbert - Dragon in the Sea



John Wyndham - Kraken Wakes



Peter Watts - Starfish



Joe Haldemann - Camoflauge



And I'll put in a plug for a fantasy other-water-world series that was entirely ocean based with just a bit of sci-fi decoration, but I enjoyed the premise of the floating cities and the flooded world.






TELEVISION & MOVIES - tons of really good stuff.
Stargate Atlantis (tv series) all took place at the bottom of an ocean and they ran into all sorts of interesting deep-sea troubles straight out of a Jacques Cousteau episode ... when they weren't busy making new alien friends or fighting off the Wraith. :-)



Interstellar (movie) had an interesting bit where they got to the ocean-world and realized it had horrific waves.



Waterworld with Kevin Costner gets trashed a lot, but they actually put a lot of good research into the people's lifestyle according to a friend of mine who is an emergency response trainer with Mass Maritime Academy. While Earthbound and not particularly good plot-wise, it's got a well-grounded water world.



The Abyss is interesting about aliens come to Earth and hide in the ocean.



Pacific Rim is a great manga-inspired met-tech sci-fi movie where the aliens come up through a wormhole located in the bottom of the ocean.

[Deb]

Anna wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Random question: can anyone think of any good space opera (or even sci-fi) novels which prominently feature alien oceans? It just occurred to me I don't know that many....."

Space ..."

Thanks Anna - It's a great list and there are some good ones in there: Brin was on my 'to read' list but I had never heard of Starfish, so, yay. And the coral throne sounds distinctly promising, I hope my library can provide.

That's a Frank Herbert I somehow missed in my Frak Herbert stage too, must keep an eye out for it. Has anyone else noticed how all the sci-fi novels that used to be in every second hand store on earth are vanishing? I guess I thought they would always be there but the old ones are, well old. And becoming quite rare.

Question.... 'Kraken wars'? Really? I have always known it as Kraken Wakes? I love John Wyndham and re-read all his stuff until it falls apart.

[Anna]

Deborah wrote: "Question.... 'Kraken wars'? Really? I have always known it as Kraken Wakes?"

Typo. I am forever over-caffeinated and sleep-deprived 3:-)

[Kirsten]

Deborah wrote: "Anna wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Random question: can anyone think of any good space opera (or even sci-fi) novels which prominently feature alien oceans? It just occurred to me I don't know that many...."

Love his stuff, too! Kraken Wakes is far too unknown in my opinion.

[Deb]

Anna wrote: "Deborah wrote: "Question.... 'Kraken wars'? Really? I have always known it as Kraken Wakes?"

Typo. I am forever over-caffeinated and sleep-deprived 3:-)"

AH! I sympathise with the sleep deprived. I thought 'Wars' might be a case of title changes. It has always seemed weird to me, the way printers in the USA decide to change a title before printing a book in America.

'Kraken' was such a visionary book! These days it is such a common theme, but the coast line changes and their effect on civilisation were different and amazing when I first read this book!

[C. John]

It works both ways. I recall an author telling a story about his US publisher being contacted by an irate fan of the the author. A book that had been published in the US as by Marilyn Ross had had the title changed and the authorship attributed to E.D. Ross (his initials) in the UK. The reader in question had gotten a copy of the UK book while on vacation and was most indignant that this E.D. Ross person had had the audacity to plagiarize Marilyn Ross (who was her favourite author). Oh and some changes are necessary simply because the English in the UK is not the same as English in North America.