Georgette Heyer Fans discussion
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I'm a bit baffled by the concept of 'spoilers'. I mean, I could understand it if you're discussing a whodunnit, and people don't want to know who the murderer was, but in a romance novel? Doesn't the same thing happen in every Heyer novel? Hero and heroine meet, go through some ups and downs, and end up together?
I like the obligatory first post. It is a great way to welcome new members and encourage discussion.I agree with the spoilers being necessary. Certainly GH books can be surprising. Often I read from other posters about how they did not expect this to happen, or they were surprised that so and so was not the heroine, or that the hero turned out to be this guy after all.
It makes it easier for people to have a choice about whether they want to read a possible spoiler rather than to be reading a thread about book A and seeing details from midway through book B.
Louise wrote: "I'm a bit baffled by the concept of 'spoilers'. I mean, I could understand it if you're discussing a whodunnit, and people don't want to know who the murderer was, but in a romance novel? Doesn't t..."I very much agree, especially for spoilers for books a half-century old in groups of people who are big fans of the author. Heyer's romances did not even try to surprise us, and are just as enjoyable with repeat readings.
Actually, even in her mysteries, surprise wasn't important (good thing, as we usually knew) - and obviously histories weren't about surprise.
The concept of spoilers does not only apply to books with surprise endings. I think if a reader says they prefer not to be told all about the detail of the book in advance of reading it, we should all respect that. There may well rarely be any surprises in the denouement, but the process of getting there - for first-time readers- is often enhanced by not knowing in advance where the story will go. There are quite a lot of folk who are reading these books for the first time - so I think it not unreasonable to allow them to have the same experience that we had of reading a GH for the very first time! Since a spoiler thread is always provided, I fail to see any hardship in being asked to use the spoiler alerts in the other 2 threads. Personally, I have never managed to do it (and I am wondering if that is because I use the GR app?), so I try to never reveal anything which might spoil someone's exploration of the book in those threads, but save such comments for the spoiler thread.
Also, I like the 'first Heyer' thread - it's a good "introductions" topic.
I like the mandatory self-introduction post—makes these groups feel more like community.As for the spoilers, I would agree that for any discussion of parts of a book beyond the basic setting (i.e., what’s laid out in the first few chapters), it is thoughtful to use spoilers. The outcome may not be in question, but the process very much is, and that is where the interest of the story lies.
Once a doctor of mine exclaimed impatiently, “What’s there to read about in a Jane Austen novel? You know the main characters are going to get married!” And I answered, “It’s not about the destination, it’s about the journey.” That certainly applies to Georgette Heyer’s works as well.
I agree with having a Spoilers thread. Not that the books are all that surprising, but I don't want to know all the plot shifts and what other readers thought of characters before I read it.
I think you're right Abigail; it is "thoughtful", even polite, to use the spoiler thread, because, as Charlotte just commented, lots of us don't want to know anything about a book (or a new author) before we read it. I may pick up a book on the recommendation of a friend, but I don't want that friend telling my why I'll like it!
Hi everyone & thank you. I do apologise for closing the Civil Contract threads, but it was around 11 o'clock at night here when Louise's comment in the spoilers thread came through.I'll open the Civil Contract threads now but if there are any open spoilers on the first two threads & spoilers about other books in the spoilers thread I will close them again.
I want to give a few more of you a chance to comment before I discuss the other matters in this thread. :)
Edited: fixed typo.
I'd like to add my two cents about spoilers.I've read nearly all of GHs romances. I think there are 2-3 left that I haven't read. Though by now, I know how GHs romances are, I'd like to discover the particulars of these 2-3 titles on my own when I read them and not read spoilers for them.
In addition, I have a lovely 20-something young lady on my flist who is an avid reader of HR in general, but she has only read TOS to date--so she's just starting with GHs romances.
Until a couple of years ago, I had never read anything by GH. I want this young lady and others like her who are getting started with GHs romances to not have the books spoiled for them if they join this group and to have just as much fun as I did on the first read of these titles.
Let's keep spoiler tags!
Susan in Perthshire wrote: "The concept of spoilers does not only apply to books with surprise endings. I think if a reader says they prefer not to be told all about the detail of the book in advance of reading it, we should ..."i suppose if what matters to you is not knowing what happens in the book that makes sense. For me, i have never found that knowing in advcance what is going to happen spoils a book for me, it's the author's style of writing that generally makes a book enjoyable for me rather than plot details. i can re-read books I like again and again without my enjoyment being spoilt, in fact i find i genrally enjoy a book more when i re-read it, because i am not in a hurry to find out what happens.
Howard wrote: "Louise wrote: "I'm a bit baffled by the concept of 'spoilers'. I mean, I could understand it if you're discussing a whodunnit, and people don't want to know who the murderer was, but in a romance n..."I'm glad i'm not the only one who feels this way! The whole 'spoiler' thing is quite beyond me. I'm not going to comment on the books at all any more, because i have no idea now what is or is not acceptable. i find the whole thing totally weird.
Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I'd like to add my two cents about spoilers.I've read nearly all of GHs romances. I think there are 2-3 left that I haven't read. Though by now, I know how GHs romances are, I'd like to discover ..."
this is where i made my mistake. i assumed a group devoted to georgette heyer would be composed mainly of people who had reAd her books and therefore could discuss them freely, that it might instead be composed of people who hadn't read her books and didn't want them discussed because it would 'spoil' them for them honestly never occured to me. You learn something new every day.
Louise wrote: "Andrea (Catsos Person) is a Compulsive eBook Hoarder wrote: "I'd like to add my two cents about spoilers.I've read nearly all of GHs romances. I think there are 2-3 left that I haven't read. Thou..."
It would never occur to me either.
I'm not trying to say NoT to discuss, just use spoiler tags.
There are people here who have read her all of her books.Not everyone has read each of her books.
What about new members who have read but a few titles but not all of the books?
Spoiler tags are the answer.
I will add, in the case of rereading a book, you are not "spoiled" because you already read the book and choose to reread, but you are not spoiled for subsequent rereads of any title.
I find the current obsession - everywhere that books are discussed - not just this group - almost incomprehensible. I don't mind knowing the outcome of a book I haven't read since there are really so few plots around anyway if your strip fiction back to its basics. If spoilers were important to everyone then no one would read the classics. Jane Austen has been mentioned in this context and the chances are anyone who starts to read her books for the first time will know what happens but I suspect for most people that doesn't spoil their enjoyment.
I think it is how the writer has arrived at the end of the book that is important for me. However I shall try to abide by the rules but if I don't then I shan't mind being told off about it.
I think many of us here have read most of GH's novels, but I find it refreshing that there are new readers emerging on the site. I can try to keep track of which thread I am on, my problem comes when I start to answer a comment in my notifications & do not realize I am in a different thread than I should be.
Despite reading my first Heyer many (very likely 40 ) years ago, I still have not read all of her works. This is because my reading was limited to books in the library- a very small selection - and the half dozen or so that I had picked up in second hand bookshops.Until this month I had not read A Civil Contract, and to be honest I was reluctant to start because of all the negative things that had been said about it. My fault for reading the threads, but the story is not new to me despite it being the first time I read it.
There are some more that I've still not read (or read so long ago that they are almost like new reads) and I now avoid the threads that are specifically about them. But if they pop up in another book's thread then I can't avoid them.
So I am 100% behind Carol in using spoiler tags if it is not the book that the thread is about.
I try to do the spoilers because people ask me to. But I also regret that we have to skip talking about foreshadowing and set-ups as we come to them. Sometimes even mentioning that an event has a spoiler can be a spoiler.I fail to come up with anything in a first read of a Heyer non-mystery which would spoil my enjoyment to the slightest. But I can see instances where being clued to pay attention to character X will enhance my reading pleasure.
I think if a thread is clearly labeled at the top (spoiler tags, please!) or (spoilers okay here) it might help people choose whether to participate in that thread or not.I'd probably choose not to participate in the spoiler tag topics because I find it's more difficult to actually discuss a book when one has to tiptoe around specifics, but then I've read all Heyer's books so many times it's difficult to recollect what might be a surprise.
But I can respect newcomers to her books not wanting everything spoiled beforehand--and there are some surprises in the books! Like, one of my favorites, Cotillion is pleasurable because it doesn't follow the usual pattern, as well as having delightful characters.
Sherwood wrote: "I think if a thread is clearly labeled at the top (spoiler tags, please!) or (spoiler-free) it might help people choose whether to participate in that thread or not.I'd probably choose not to par..." Even Cotillion> doesn't have a real spoiler, past the introductory chapter. As soon as we get to know characters, we aren't surprised by what happens.
Well, I was surprised as a teen reader! :-)
As teens, we were not familiar with tropes and the common twists that plots can take. After so many years of reading, and so many years of watching plot twists & turns in movies & to shows, I am so delighted when something surprises me. I would not want to take that possibility of surprise away from anyone else.
Of course, as Damaskcat said, there are a limited number of plots; and knowing there will be a happy resolution will not stop us reading Jane Austen for example. However, we don't read simply for the happy ending. We read for the enjoyment of seeing the characters come to life and the development of the story, the skilful use of language and the realistic dialogue. Whilst we know that in GH's books, the hero and heroine usually end up together - we don't always know how they will get there. For a new GH reader, the process is as important as the result. So yes, I can see that it is possible for 'spoilers' to change the experience of a newbie reading GH for the first time!
Here, it's not as if we are being asked never to reveal 'spoilers' at all; and the 'spoiler' thread provides the opportunity to discuss the book as a whole in every aspect with no worries about talking about anything in the book.
Like many others here, I have read most of GH's novels several times over - so there are few surprises in either the plots, the process, the descriptions or the characters; so I don't mind 'spoilers' at all. However, I utterly respect the right of newbies to enjoy the way the story unfolds and develops without someone else pointing it all out to them in a 'spoiler'. If someone wants to view the 'spoiler' thread before finishing the book, they can do so.
I think this approach allows every one of us to participate in the group reads in a way which suits each person's prior experience and without it being too onerous.
I don't think it is too difficult to use spoilers, especially if NOT using them prevents people from reading the discussions at all. I would rather extend that small courtesy and encourage more people to participate. I have read most of GH's books, but this group is welcoming to all GH 'skill levels,' not only those who have every story memorized, but first-time readers, or those who have only read a few of her books. That is priceless, because often new, fresh opinions allow the books to be enjoyed in new and fresh ways.
Critterbee wrote: "I don't think it is too difficult to use spoilers, especially if NOT using them prevents people from reading the discussions at all. I would rather extend that small courtesy and encourage more peo..."Very astute! Great point!
Critterbee wrote: "I don't think it is too difficult to use spoilers, especially if NOT using them prevents people from reading the discussions at all. I would rather extend that small courtesy and encourage more peo..."I suspect that one of the problems here is that longtime readers might not be certain what constitutes a spoiler, and so they might feel discussion choked off if they can't give examples.
This is not to endorse leaving out spoiler tags, just to point out what many might perceive as a difficulty: what does constitute a spoiler, any turn in the plot? A witty line that reveals an emotional turning point?
Sherwood wrote: "I suspect that one of the problems here is that longtime readers might not be certain what constitutes a spoiler, and so they might feel discussion choked off if they can't give examples.That is a good point. I often make a comment without realizing that it could be a spoiler. If the mention appears in the first chapter or so, I do not consider it a spoiler, but anything further on might be one?
Sometimes I might read a book for the first time, and note that character X doesn't seem to be very nice. Somebody who doesn't know that I'm reading it for the first time might get all over me for not putting that in a spoiler (assuming that I know that he doesn't get the girl in the end).I love to discuss foreshadowing, whether it is my first read or my 3 read.
I must say I completely agree with Carol and I find it a little annoying that anyone would be dismissive about this, if you are told that giving away some of the plot affects another person’s enjoyment of a book, please be respectful and accept that.Personally I hate spoilers, whether in books or TV programs or films and I know a lot of people who feel the same way and a few that don’t, and I always try to respect their wishes.
As it happens I have read all of Heyer’s romances but so long ago in some cases that it is a pleasure to discover it again, as Abigail said, it's most definitely about the journey. Because I have read them however, I’m very careful about what I put in the paged threads and if I want to discuss something outside of those chapters I put it in the spoiler thread because that’s what it’s there for.
@Howard, how you feel about a character is not a spoiler, the things that have been objected to in this forum most definitely were.
I have only read about 5 of the romances but all the mysteries, so from my point of view spoilers are great because I really haven't read that book probably!I came to this group through the mysteries NOT the romances
Hi everyone & thanks for your comments.I'll start we the easiest one - the introductory thread. Everyone loves the way Christy set it up so that will stay.
The Books folder - like I said above I don't look at the books threads if I haven't read the book recently. There is nothing stopping any member here starting a thread in there & spoiling away, As an example HJ started a thread for April Lady. My own opinion is if you start discussing another Heyer novel you should spoiler it. & I'm going to say works by another author - yes definitely spoiler.
The Groups Folder - the consensus seems to be that most people would prefer spoiler tags used. Howard, if you are wanting to discuss something in the first two threads use spoiler tags. Otherwise I would suggest doing all your posts in the spoiler thread or starting a thread in the Book Folder.
& now a couple of individual points.Sherwood wrote: "I think if a thread is clearly labeled at the top (spoiler tags, please!) or (spoilers okay here) it might help people choose whether to participate in that thread or not.
"
The spoilers thread always has spoilers in the title but I never stop anyone putting spoilers in the other 2 threads as long as they use spoiler tags.
Louise wrote; this is where i made my mistake. i assumed a group devoted to georgette heyer would be composed mainly of people who had reAd her books and therefore could discuss them freely, that it might instead be composed of people who hadn't read her books and didn't want them discussed because it would 'spoil' them for them honestly never occured to me. You learn something new every day.
GH is not a good author to make this assumption about, given her determined efforts to suppress seven of her novels! I certainly haven't & in the case of Pastel may never be able to as no public library in NZ has a copy. It will make a good thread subject though.
Edit; left out a word
Hilary & Louise Sparrow I'm such a slow typist your comments snuck in there! Thanks for your thoughts.
Because it is many, many years since I read Heyer's books, I have no memory of the story, but do recall the titles. So, each re-read for me is largely like reading the book for the first time. When The Toll-Gate was a group read, and I looked in on the thread covering the first chapters having read that far, I was sent scurrying back to my book as I thought I had missed a couple of points that were in the discussion. However, those points turned up as I continued reading, a few chapters on. Since then I have avoided reading the threads as I prefer to read the story in the book without being influenced by other readers interpretation of plot and characters.
I do find the threads interesting once I have finished reading the book, to look at and consider if I agree with, had thought of that aspect, and so on.
I do know I enjoyed the books when I read them all those years ago, and the few I've re-read I am finding very enjoyable still. I just wish they weren't so difficult to find in libraries. I am currently 5th in line for A Civil Contract, and 4th in line for The Talisman Ring. Ironically I reserved Cousin Kate ready for May, (there were 2 reserves before me at the time) but it became available for me on Friday!
I'm reading A Civil Contract for the first time. I add my voice to those who don't wish to be spoiled. It's taking me longer than normal to read this novel. It doesn't hurt to put something in a spoiler tag. It's a common courtesy. If you aren't sure, just tag it and if someone wants to know, they can open the spoiler. Usually a spoiler is some kind of plot point that happens after the first few chapters, like I dislike Julia so far. (view spoiler)I think Mr. Chawleigh is a doting father and I like him for it, but (view spoiler)
I like Jenny better than Julia. I think she's a better wife for Adam. -- NOT a spoiler because it's laid out early on that Adam marries for money and it says so on the dust jacket flap/back of the book.
Carol ♔ Typo Queen! ♔ wrote: "Hi everyone & thanks for your comments.I'll start we the easiest one - the introductory thread. Everyone loves the way Christy set it up so that will stay.
The Books folder - like I said above I..."
I'm not good at getting to where spoilers are posted. But since my messages are replies to other people's messages, what I need to do is look to see if I can determine whether the sub-forum is spoiler, and if not, not say anything (unless I'm very sure that nobody will think what I say is a spoiler).
QNPoohBear wrote: "I'm reading A Civil Contract for the first time. I add my voice to those who don't wish to be spoiled. It's taking me longer than normal to read this novel. It doesn't hurt to put something in a sp..." I never would have dreamed that what you marked as a spoiler would be considered by anybody to be such.
The safest thing for a book we are reading is to restrict comments to the designated chapters or the spoiler thread. Mistakes will happen, however, and we can forgive them and move on.
Howard wrote: "QNPoohBear wrote: " I never would have dreamed that what you marked as a spoiler would be considered by anybody to be such. "The second one not so much but it does come as a surprise to the characters.
Kim wrote: "The safest thing for a book we are reading is to restrict comments to the designated chapters or the spoiler thread. Mistakes will happen, however, and we can forgive them and move on."Sorry to be late to the discussion, we've been away - I like the introductory thread. I feel spoilers don't necessarily ruin my enjoyment since I've not read all of GH's books and read many several years ago, so haven't memorized the characters names and plots - however I certainly wouldn't want to ruin the enjoyment of a fellow reader who hates spoilers, so I say keep the spoiler threads and use spoiler tags as needed. I admit I'm rather clueless how to code them, but I'm a Luddite - I know several members have kindly told us how to do it but the instructions are buried in the threads. Perhaps you could tell us one more time, or put the instructions at the head of each new spoiler thread? I apologize if you already do that. I will definitely try and follow the rules and have no problem with being reminded to shut my gob and take it to the spoilers thread!
Susan in NC wrote: "Kim wrote: "The safest thing for a book we are reading is to restrict comments to the designated chapters or the spoiler thread. Mistakes will happen, however, and we can forgive them and move on."..."I Googled this a couple of days ago:
http://steamcommunity.com/comment/Ann...
It's hard to paste that here because the markups are implemented instead of being displayed. But I cut and pasted that to a different file.
Thank you Howard, you're a peach! Saved to my home screen - and Carol, please disregard my SOS for instructions on spoilers. What a lovely community we have here!
Re spoilers in non-mysteries, the ending of one of the first GH's I read surprised me, at least. Best to be careful!
Thanks for the reference Howard, it will be very useful and helpful.
Now I thought [] doesn't work here it had to be <> Trying now [b]bold [/b] I'm right it doesn't ;) I have stickied how to do spoiler tags in the top of Heyer in General.
Also when you are in the comments box look top right & you will see (some html is ok) click on that & there are the instructions on how to do the html that's allowed on GR. I know it's not very intuitive but that's GR for you. In Feedback many many readers have suggested some sort of virtual tour of Goodreads for new users but that hasn't been implemented.
& while I'm here I do appreciate the fact that Howard has disagreed with me in the past but he is always polite. :)
Bless you Carol for being patient with the technologically challenged!
Susan in NC wrote: "Bless you Carol for being patient with the technologically challenged!"Thats because I'm technologically challenged! I'm also on Leafmarks which is in most ways a far simpler site to use than GR & blowed if I can figure out how to get a picture on my reviews!
I've got the flu! I'm feeling much better now but will leave writing the new improved rules until tomorrow!
This topic has been frozen by the moderator. No new comments can be posted.
Firstly a little background for newer members. :) Christy B started this group but she no longer reads Heyer. The group toddled along quite happily for years without an active moderator. I joined in 2014. I wanted to do a couple of things I couldn't as a member, messaged Christy & she asked me if I'd like to be a moderator last year. If I'm away for a long period of time I ask Christy to swing by & make sure there are no problems. I should mention that as far as I'm aware, Christy still doesn't accept messages from people not on her friends list.
I used the GR format to post our one rule.
This is on the home page. If you click on Group Info at the bottom you will see rules. We have at the moment just the one.
I want to add to that;
For the Books Folder I would like to say
I'm thinking that I should do what most groups do - sticky a rules thread in the top forum.
Also I've left Christy B's "the obligatory first post..." as our introduction thread because I liked it. I did sticky it. Is everyone happy with this or would people like me to close it & do an introductions thread?
Now over to all of you! :)