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Constructions of Gender; Conformity and Non; Trans and Cis Experiences
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Bunny
(last edited Apr 13, 2016 09:38PM)
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Apr 13, 2016 09:37PM
I have put some effort and energy into studying this matter because I found it confusing myself. After doing a lot of reading and talking to people who are transgender as well as researchers into the construction and underlying biology and psychology of sexual identity, sexuality, gender identification I can now explain why transgender people are not the result of societal pressure to adhere to gender roles. However as I've recently been under a fair amount of criticism in this group for apparently coming across as superior or like I'm trying to lecture people, I'm backing off and trying a new approach so I'm going to ask first if you would like to hear about what I have learned or if you would rather not.
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Bunny wrote: "I have put some effort and energy into studying this matter because I found it confusing myself. After doing a lot of reading and talking to people who are transgender as well as researchers into t..."
I would like to hear about your opinion. Maybe in a personal message, if nobody else will.
I would like to hear about your opinion. Maybe in a personal message, if nobody else will.
Bunny wrote: "I have put some effort and energy into studying this matter because I found it confusing myself. After doing a lot of reading and talking to people who are transgender as well as researchers into t..."Bunny, based on my latest readings of comments, it's just me who has confronted you, nobody else. I don't think it does anyone any good not to say out loud how something feels, and if the way I say something to you isn't good for you, then by all means just ignore me. I won't send private messages full of harassment to you, stalk you around the group writing nasty comments as replies to all yours, or hound you in other ways.
It's only one particular thing that bugs me in our conversation, and it is how you address me when you attempt to correct something you perceive I've misunderstood, and in short, to me it seems like you school me rather than inform, but if you don't want to take that message to heart, then don't. I feel like it's a missed opportunity, but it's not the end of the world if you decide to disagree with me. We're both adults with strong opinions, and can leave it at that.
With that said, I've appreciated many theoretic comments from you, because you clearly know what you're talking about, and would appreciate even further information you might wish to share.
Okay thanks. Bear with me because this is a bit complicated. A lot of this is also pretty recent because for a long time different societies just assumed they knew how gender and sex worked because it was obvious, right? So it didn't need to be researched and anyone who didn't fall in line with the obvious was probably messed up. Now it is being researched and some of the findings are that in fact we don't know as much as was assumed and some of what we thought we knew is wrong.So. The first thing is that there are several different things going on at the same time and we tend to lump them all together and we shouldn't because they don't go together neatly.
First there's biological sex. This is made up of several different physical factors, what chromosomes you have, how your endocrine system works (hormones), your external and internal physical structures. Culture has very little influence on the physical systems people are born with.
But here's the thing, those factors are not as simple as people thought they were. Its not a matter of being born a boy and therefore you have this physical set up, and these genes, and these hormones and if you are born a girl you have a different set and end of story. Geneticists and endocrinologists are discovering that it doesn't actually work that way, we are actually quite complicated mixtures and the mix isn't the same from one person to the next.
People can have one kind of genes and another kind of physical appearance and then their hormone balance is something else. And not only can these things vary independently from one another, but some of them aren't just binary I mean its not just one way or the other way its more like a sliding scale. So as the research continues they are finding that the physical basis of gender is way more complicated that was supposed. Also that its way more common than was supposed for people to vary from each other on some of these factors. The whole notion of these two solid binary categories may be somewhat flawed and the number of people who don't fit neatly into one or the other is much larger than was supposed.
Mod
But this is getting into my hypothetical headspace, so no need to linger on that.
Mod
Also, I'm thinking this needs a more specific title, so feel free to go in and edit it, or if you'd like me to take care of it.
So first there's the biological basis of sexual differences which turns out to be quite a bit more complicated and quite a bit less binary than people had supposed. Then there's sexual identity, which is the sex you feel yourself to be and identify with. As far as anyone can tell based on the research to date, this identity is very strongly influenced by biology and only secondarily by psychological and social factors. In other words most people are born with the sexual identity they are going to have and it can't be changed without damaging the person psychologically.
At one time it was supposed that people's internal experience matched their external appearance end of story. Then the pendulum swung completely in the other direction, particularly as some feminists were challenging gender roles and arguing that the whole thing was a fiction anyway so why couldn't someone born male be raised to be female or vice versa? It looks like both of those points of view are wrong.
There are a number of people who are born with an internal identity that doesn't match their external appearance. This is likely primarily biological, and only secondarily psychological and social. There have been people throughout history and in many cultures who have identified as a gender other than the one they were assumed to be at birth. The fact that its seen throughout history and in different cultures is a pretty good clue that its not a social construct, because social constructs generally vary between different societies.
Also as research continues it becomes clearer that as I said earlier, people's biological sex is complex so it makes sense that their internal experience will also be more complex than was earlier supposed. Again, we are most likely not dealing with a simple binary. Its not that some people are male and some people are female and a few people were accidentally born with the brain of one and the body of the other. Rather its that we fall along a spectrum in how strongly we identify as male or female and for those who identify strongly as one but are physically more like the other, its particularly challenging to live in a very rigidly binary society.
I can't edit the thread title because I didn't start the thread and I'm not a mod but if the OP would be willing to edit or agree to let the mods do so it maybe we could make some suggestions for what the edit should be?
Okay to recap. Biological sex is determined by genes, hormones, physical structure etc and is out of our control but not a simple binary.
Sexual identity is still under research but likely also largely biological and out of our control, which does not mean that its binary or that it is simple.
So. Moving on. Sexuality. Again, there was for some time a lot of pressure to try to make this simple - you get born with one set of genitals and that means you are sexually attracted to people with the other set of genitals and you act in certain approved ways and that's the end of the story. Well.... as we most of us know, not so much.
But one of the things we brought out of that old thinking about how it all lumps together into those two simple categories and every behavior goes into one or the other bucket is that we keep trying to cling to the categories and just let people be more free to choose between them. So transwomen are just women born in mens bodies and lesbians are transmen and ... confusion.
No. Sexuality, identity and biology are all separate things. A person who identifies as female may or may not have female genitals and may or may not be attracted to men. Knowing what someone's biology is doesn't tell you what their identity is doesn't tell you what their sexuality is. For many people they do lump together in predictable ways, but for other people they do not.
Also, again, its not a binary, its a spectrum. Not everyone is exclusively attracted to one gender. Also the degree to which different people are interested in sex at all varies widely. We are enormously more individual than we give ourselves credit for.
As best as anyone has been able to determine via research so far, sexual orientation and sexuality more generally are probably also a combination of biological, social and psychological factors. Probably probably slightly less fixed than identity, but its still very unlikely that anyone will be able to change their sexuality substantially without harming themselves.
So now we start to approach Adam's question. Adam wrote: "In short: Since there can be "feminine" men or "masculine" women; in both heterosexual or homosexual men and women, since gender roles are an artificial and forced societal construction. Is society itself creating transgender people when actually there should be none? ..."
So the problem here is that several separate things are all being lumped together, ie sexuality "heterosexual or homosexual", biology "men and women", identity ",transgender people" and gender gender roles are an artificial and forced..."
Lumping things together like that is the way its been done for a long time. The problem is it creates a question that can't be answered very accurately because its resting on some assumptions about how things work that are wrong. So without pulling apart the different categories and dealing with them separately you just end up in a bit of a mess.
So. Biology, identity, sexuality all separate things, all not as linked or as simple as we thought they were. Which brings us to gender. Which is, guess what? Ha not as simple as we thought.
But now we are actually starting to move into categories of things that do have a big social component and probably are quite a bit less fixed.
Sorry I have to go work on something else for awhile. Talk more later, in the meantime have I lost you? Or are we still together? Also what would be a good alternate name for this thread?
Mod
Sure! Throw out some ideas! I just thought the topic will attract a greater number of members interested in this issue if the title is more specific.
Perhaps something along the lines of "Transgender identity and gender constructs"
Too complicated maybe? haha :p (although that would certainly reflect the nature of the topic discussed which is... complicated indeed!)
Mod
I don't mean to cut in with even more considerations that may or may not be plausible, but we could also throw in what you mentioned earlier: the degree to which different people are interested in sex at all
Which may mean something along the lines of asexuality and the various other identities that people have recognized, or just a spectrum of desire/interest in the act(s) itself.
Which is often lumped in with sexuality in the sense of the genders one is attracted to, even though it (to me, anyway) seems to be a completely different spectrum to consider. One can be both gay and minimally interested in sexual activity. I'd like to see more attention paid to separating these considerations, in the way that the "T" in LGBT has been placed in its own category; transgender does not indicate the genders that one is attracted to.
Sorry, I've gone off on a bit of a tangent, haven't I?
google the Transgender unicorn or I'll try and find a link. it explains quite well the differences between identity, sex, orientation and inclination
If you are talking about the Gender Unicorn site its here:http://www.transstudent.org/gender
If you are talking about the Powderpuff Girls episode about the "trans pony" who wants to be a unicorn, I have not seen it but from what I understand it wasn't well received among trans people.
I'm curious to hear from Trans people. personally I ask and listen rather than simply give only my own opinion or go by research. I talk to the Trans boy or girl dating my kid, living with us and other kids around. it's hard to really have a discussion without inviting the voices in. talking FOR others doesn't really work.
Are you talking about me or just making an observation?
I'm talking overall. an example was a con I work at talking about making it more friendly for disabled. Good discussion but once we shut up and listened to those with disabilities we learned a hell of a lot more
Catrice wrote: "I'm talking overall. an example was a con I work at talking about making it more friendly for disabled. Good discussion but once we shut up and listened to those with disabilities we learned a hell..."Makes sense, and I agree. I've learned a lot of what I know from talking with trans people, and also from reading their writing. I also think that scientific studies have a lot to offer, as long as they are balanced by talking to the people who have actual life experience.
So the thing I haven't gotten to yet in the categories that are covered in Adam's original comment is gender expression. Here's where we get closer to the part that I think probably is largely a social construct. So, how you identify is your sexual identity and that is probably mostly biological and fairly hard to change. But how you express that identification - the ways that you behave in order to show that you think of yourself as male or female or queer or genderfluid, things like wearing a dress or makeup, or cutting your hair short, sitting with your knees together or apart, those are expressions of gender. And those expressions are largely cultural and vary from place to place and over time. The experience of having a feminine identity isn't cultural but the way it is expressed, is - if that makes sense.
But again, the expression isn't necessarily linked either to the sexuality or the identity. Or biology. There are gay men who dress like women, there are straight men who dress like women. There are transwomen who don't dress particularly femme. As Eddie Izzard famously says, he's a transvestite not a transsexual or a gay man. He prefers sex with women, he thinks of himself as a man, and he also likes to wear makeup and nail polish and heels. So again, different people express identity in different ways.
Mod
Thanks!"
Okay! If anyone else has a better title idea, let me know and I'll make a change. For now I'm going with "Transgender identity and construction of gender"
So as far as I am concerned the short answer to Adam's questionAdam wrote: "Is society itself creating transgender people when actually there should be none? ..."
Is: No.
The very much longer answer is the things I already said.
This, however, is a lovely essay meditating on some of these questions from a more personal place, which I just saw today. By a mother thinking about how she hopes her daughter will experience genderhttp://www.onbeing.org/blog/the-shapi...
In my Introduction to Women’s Studies classes at Hunter College, I’d always made Anne Fausto-Sterling’s "The Five Sexes" required reading. ... Despite our best efforts to fit male and female into tidy boxes, she writes, “…sex is a vast, infinitely malleable continuum that defies the constraints of even five categories.”
I love that. I believe that.
And yet when I was carrying my first child, and again with my second, I gave in to the temptation to find out the sex of my baby...Though I’ve done my best not to take that information and overlay it with a bunch of expectations, I would be lying if I said I didn’t relate to it as a fixed category to some extent. In part, this is because the pragmatic side of me knows that the world still works that way...
I know I can’t build a wall between her and the world. The world is inside our family. The world is inside our house. It’s inside me. I can only hope that her gender feels like a creative force, not a constraint — like something to play with, rather than something to be restricted by. I want that for her, and I realize I want that for me.
This is so interesting! I read some Butler in college, but a lot of it just really fell into place - she was quite a mouthfull back then :)
Adam wrote: "Bunny: I am reading through these and will comment later.Thanks!"
Thanks Adam!
Also many thanks to Katelyn for changing the thread title! I think that works but if anyone has other ideas, I think they should definitely weigh in!
Katelyn wrote: "I don't mean to cut in with even more considerations that may or may not be plausible, but we could also throw in what you mentioned earlier: the degree to which different people are interested in sex at all
Which may mean something along the lines of asexuality and the various other identities that people have recognized, or just a spectrum of desire/interest in the act(s) itself.
Which is often lumped in with sexuality in the sense of the genders one is attracted to, even though it (to me, anyway) seems to be a completely different spectrum..."
I agree, and one way this plays out - linking sex drive with other factors - that it is often assumed that men have more interest in sex than women, when research seems to show that its just not true. I recently read about a study where they showed sexual content to both men and women and then asked them about their response to it. What the people said was about what culture would expect, the men claimed to be much more interested and aroused than the women.
But they also hooked the people up to devices that measured their physiological response and what they said and the way they actually responded didn't match. The discussion results went on to say that the degree of fabrication was a matter for further research in future which really made me smile. In other words, the researchers don't know if people were lying about what they felt or if they'd so internalized the norms of their culture that they thought they were telling the truth.
Henriette wrote: "This is so interesting! I read some Butler in college, but a lot of it just really fell into place - she was quite a mouthfull back then :)"Thanks Henriette! I'm glad you find it interesting! It is a LOT isn't it? This is so much to think about, especially when a lot of us were raised with a very simple schema that turns out to be pretty disconnected with what research is finding to be real.
I love this bit from the Courtney Martin essay I linked to Her favorite color is purple and she’s got a budding interest in princesses. So be it. She also loves digging in the garden for roly polys and helping Dada fix the bus. I want my arms to be so wide, my language so generous, that none of it feels off-limits, either because it fits the stereotype or defies it.
After all the research is done, that's what I want too, for my arms to be wide and my language to be generous and for no one's identity to feel off limits.
I feel like we've been living in a society that takes this vast, complex, messy amazing multi variant experience of sex and gender and tries to stick in to one of two tiny little boxes and then say depending on which box you've been assigned to you may only like pink and bake cakes and never use telescopes or get angry and so on. Which is just so dumb!
It is a lot! But actually the continuum-thought taps right in to some of the issues we are currently trying to solve in my house. Especially when it comes to sexual interest.My husband has a very low need for sex while mine is very... present... It's not that he doesn't want to have sex, he just doesn't need to. He can be absolutely content without it. I can't. But because of the way we talk about sexdrive in our culture it has talen us years of misunderstandings and hurt feeling to figure this out. I have been afraid to hurt some kind of masculinity in him (which is completely stupid - he is the most grounded person I know) and afraid to admit my needs - and he has been afraid to tell me about his low need because he was scared I would think he just didn't want me. Oh, the stupidity society kraves Jacques.
Wauw, my autocorrect got creative. I meant to say: Oh, the stupidity society leaves us with.
And I have kids that challenge the gender identity continuum as well.My son loves LEGO, cars and tools. He is shy, bookish and really loves to sit at a table and fiddle with things. He is sensitive and cautious. The summer he was 2 (almost 3) his favorite clothing was a Hello Kitty suit with tulle.
His sister is into princesses and everything pink. She insists on wearing princess dresses to kindergarten every day and looooves everything soft and cuddly. She is also wild and brave and has a big temper. The dresses never stops her from riding bikes or climing trees and she seems to have no respect for danger.
They are pretty cool and seem to find their own place at the continuum. At least for now. I'm afraid what school might do to them on that account.
And - I'm sorry if I over-shared. I'm pretty blunt in a lot of subjects.
kraves Jacques!! Ha! Auto correct is the bane of my existence. As you may have noticed, I tend to use some long words, and auto correct doesn't really know what to make of me sometimes. I really hear you about relationships being made more difficult by these expectations around what different genders are "supposed" to be like! Relationships are hard enough without having these unspoken gender rules rattling around in our heads. At their worst I think they keep us from knowing one another.
If it helps, the idea that men are just naturally more interested in sex is a relatively recent European idea. Back in the middle ages in parts of Europe it was women who were supposed to be the lusty ones. Lots of comic songs and stories about reticent men being pursued by women. In other cultures and times around the world too, it varies.
For me that's one of the markers that something is probably pretty culturally determined, if you keep seeing it playing out differently in different times and places.
Its challenging though, to run counter to the prevailing narrative in your culture. My dad was a really involved parent and loved caring for and playing with and nurturing his kids at a time when that was really not the norm, and honestly not terribly encouraged either.
Yeah, all that weirdness that we just internalize really makes many things more difficult. We have a very liberal way of thinking about gender in my relationship (for instance my husband has a profession that us typically thought of as a womans field, and I will probably end up making a lot more money than him, he is definitely the most natural parent and he is way better at House keeping than me), but still we carry these assumptions around. And we didn't even question them until it became obvious that we had a situation that could be a serious problem if we didn't confront it.
So even in our heterosexual, cis-gendered relationship the continuum of male and female traits is interesting.
I used to call it "Leave it to Beaver" reruns playing on the screen at the back of my mind. Do you know that show? I don't know where you are from, although old American tv is kind of ubiquitous. Oh I looked, Denmark. Well in case you haven't seen it, its an old black and white tv show about a sort of idealized 1950's american family where everyone is firmly in their assigned lane and just happy as happy can be with it.
I don't know the show, but I'm pretty sure it can compare to some of our danish shows/movies.
Recently I started reading Gender and Sexuality For Beginners by Jaimee Garbacik and due to information overload had to take a break. Pinterest, however, is a treasure trove in regards to infographics, and so I decided to add some links for the benefit of other visually geared people.The Gender Debate (original tumblr account seemingly not active anymore):
https://jerbearinsantafe.wordpress.co...
Gender Grammar (problem, correction, reason):
http://www.transstudent.org/gendergra...
It's the same website as Bunny linked to in mess. 17.
How to be a Trans* Ally (scroll down for this infographic):
http://www.teni.ie/page.aspx?contenti...
The asterisk:
http://itspronouncedmetrosexual.com/2...
There's a truckload more infographics including "8 Queer Identitities to Understand" and "8 Trans* Identities to Understand", neither of which I can seem to find an original link to. Try googling them by name!
Here's a selection of the letter infographics though:
http://www.upworthy.com/fuck-yeah-sex...
What do people think of these, if you identify as one of the minorities? Are they accurately described?
Adam wrote: "This going to be a very touchy subject, but I think it needs to be discussed.
Since we have gender roles and how they are applied falsely to categorically hold men or women into a specific set of ..."
I think you're mixing gender identity with sexual orientation? Interesting thoughts, but a bit confusing. I don't know if I understand you the right way.
Here's what I think I understand: I used to think about this a lot, too. This piont of view that it's better for everyone if gender doesn't exist at all, that we eradicate gender as a construct. And consequently I thought that transpeople are the "driving force" in perpetuating or maintaining the gender binary.
But I changed my mind on that. Because now I think it's subtly transphobic. Kat Balque explains that people who think like that are usually not willing to challenge or eradicate their own personal genders. We only bring it up around trans people and accuse them for upholding gender roles. So it's subtly invalidating a transpersons existence. She talks about this more in depth: "IF GENDER DIDN'T EXIST, WOULD TRANS PEOPLE?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MkcE...
I think her perspective on this, as a transperson herself, is especially interesting.
Since we have gender roles and how they are applied falsely to categorically hold men or women into a specific set of ..."
I think you're mixing gender identity with sexual orientation? Interesting thoughts, but a bit confusing. I don't know if I understand you the right way.
Here's what I think I understand: I used to think about this a lot, too. This piont of view that it's better for everyone if gender doesn't exist at all, that we eradicate gender as a construct. And consequently I thought that transpeople are the "driving force" in perpetuating or maintaining the gender binary.
But I changed my mind on that. Because now I think it's subtly transphobic. Kat Balque explains that people who think like that are usually not willing to challenge or eradicate their own personal genders. We only bring it up around trans people and accuse them for upholding gender roles. So it's subtly invalidating a transpersons existence. She talks about this more in depth: "IF GENDER DIDN'T EXIST, WOULD TRANS PEOPLE?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MkcE...
I think her perspective on this, as a transperson herself, is especially interesting.
Mod
Just to reiterate, I find the accusation that trans folks are responsible for upholding the binary, or should be held to a higher standard of subverting the binary, to be unacceptable.
I was also going to post this! You can view it as text here: http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/12/i...Also, about the trans asterisk: http://www.thepulpzine.com/the-trans-...
I'll also respond to this comment from another thread (cw transphobia)
"why is everything nowadays seen as transphobic? according to basic biology there is men and there is woman and the thing that separates the two are vaginas and penises. if you are trans then that means you identify as one or the other gender but do not usually posses the right equipment. feminism is becoming a joke because all of the need for being political correct, having to include all while rejecting opposing views and getting offended at the slightest of things."
there are some great explanations in this thread.
anyway, if you accept that trans women are women, then your feminism should include them.
non-binary people exist, that's identities like genderqueer, agender, genderfluid. some of them see themselves as outside the cis/trans binary (especially agender afaiu), others identify as transgender.
but even if you don't accept all that, if you think it's all vagina vs penis, then you should stand up for everyone who has a vagina. before transition/coming out, trans people with vaginas often experience sexism too.
the "vagina test" is transphobic because it's dismissive of young people with vaginas, who are not obligated to be feminists, especially given how many feminists refuse to support them.
i probably know how you feel. lots of "fun" things are actually sexist, transphobic, homophobic, ableist etc. we'd have very few books left if we excluded all that. nearly everything is problematic, it's just our responsibility to be critical and not defensive.
Katelyn wrote: "I was just considering, with the difference between how individuals understand their own genders/anatomies, in a hypothetical world without gender, how might individuals with different relationships to those aspects of themselves differ in their identifications ..."I'm now imagining a world where genders are like personalities. Everybody has one and some are quite similar but nobody thinks that everyone in the world is required to have only one of two possible personalities! ;-)
Mod
Yes! Doesn't that sound lovely? I read some of the comments on the YouTube video posted by Haydée, and someone pointed out in the comments that there is also a difference between how gender is applied to people/bodies and how it is applied elsewhere, to actions, objects, behaviors, etc. I think this is interesting... If we ceased labeling things by gender, how would that then reflect on us? How would gender be reproduced through our actions, if actions were no longer gendered? Is gender an identity or is it performed? Is it both?
How would it change if we eliminated the binary and/or its application to things other than people?
Again, I digress a bit, but I think it's still related, so I'm not going to apologize quite yet ;)
I believe a person should be proud of the way he or she was born. There came a time I got confused for a female on some occasions. Even my mother made that mistake unintentionally. Just because I was born with platinum blonde hair which seems feminine, that does not mean I can change the way I am. Sure, I do have red lips, but I am not ashamed of my gender. No matter how we sound or what we look like to others, we should never give into this thought of altering our real identity. If I did make the transition by turning into a woman, then I would erase a part of myself, mainly the happiness I enjoyed in my childhood. Whenever people call me ma'am at anytime, I just act casual and remain courteous to them.
We are aware of Chaz Bono and most recently Caitlyn Jenner taking this initiative in the past. I choose not to resort to hatred over their metamorphosis and stay focused on my life. I could write a story, play a video game, read a graphic novel, and watch a movie in one day to take my mind off of worry. After all, their actions do not concern me, and we have never met each other face-to-face in real life. My parents raised me to be a good man, and I gratefully appreciate my true self.
James wrote: "I believe a person should be proud of the way he or she was born. There came a time I got confused for a female on some occasions. Even my mother made that mistake unintentionally. Just because I w..."Transgender people are expressing their true self. I realize that can be very hard to understand. None the less it's important to try. I think that trans and other gender non conforming people have a lot to teach others about a whole range of things from the nature of gender and identity to the ways in which our societies are too rigid and controlling.
Also I am just distressed that they face such terrible abuse. Its bizarre to me that some people are so invested in their ideas about gender that they would hurt someone else over them. Even for those who don't really get what the trans experience is or how it works I think we can all agree that nobody should be harmed just because they don't gender the way someone else thinks they should. Maybe that's a point of agreement to start from and then build?
Hey Katelyn next time you get a chance I'm wondering if you could change the thread title again? I'm thinking something like, Constructions of Gender; Conformity and Non; Trans and Cis Experiences.
Or again, open to other suggestions...
Can't be done Adam but thanks!! The way Goodreads works once a thread is started only people who can change it are the person who started it and the moderators. But I can certainly wander around in here being noisy! ;-)
Adam, you opened the discussion well, don't worry! We have some interesting contributions already thanks to your nudge.
James wrote: "I believe a person should be proud of the way he or she was born. There came a time I got confused for a female on some occasions. Even my mother made that mistake unintentionally. Just because I w..."I think I understand what you mean by your post, but it might sound like you intend to say that trans* should stay the way they are with your "proud of the way...". Did you mean that specifically?
Haydée wrote: "I used to think about this a lot, too. This piont of view that it's better for everyone if gender doesn't exist at all, that we eradicate gender as a construct. And consequently I thought that transpeople are the "driving force" in perpetuating or maintaining the gender binary. But I changed my mind on that. Because now I think it's subtly transphobic. Kat Balque explains that people who think like that are usually not willing to challenge or eradicate their own personal genders. We only bring it up around trans people and accuse them for upholding gender roles. ..."
That's interesting Haydee. I went through a similar sort of process myself, at first wondering whether trans people weren't just reinforcing gender roles and then when trans people themselves said that wasn't accurate, having to dig deeper and try to understand more. I think for those of us who are not trans knowing and talking to or reading or viewing work by people who are trans really gives us an opportunity to think more deeply about our own understandings of gender. Because trans people challenge those understandings just by existing.
Something a transman said to me once was that it seems very complicated from the outside for people who are trying to understand it. But from the inside its not so complicated, he's just living his feelings and following what seems real and right to him in his gut. He's just being him. What's complicated is the way other people react to him.
Personally one of the things I am most fascinated by is that people who transition have this unique opportunity to have lived experience on both sides of the gender "fence" so to speak. Which seems like it gives a particularly interesting perspective on all these rules we put on ourselves.
Adam wrote: "If science leads one to a conclusion, that is where one goes. If it changes with new evidence, that is where one changes direction. At all times. ..."Agreed. With a few caveats that I'm not going to get into right now because it doesn't matter. Right now it looks like where the science is leading is that identity, sex, gender, orientation are all very much less simple than we once thought they were. That when it comes to sex human biology actually produces a whole range of different combinations rather than just two.
When you think about it this actually makes sense. On other matters human biology also produces a range. With height, we aren't all either one meter tall or two meters tall and nothing in between, we are a range with the majority of cases clustered at a central point. With hair color, we aren't all either white blond or darkest brown and nothing in between, we are a range with a lot of people being sort of brownish haired. With intelligence, we aren't all either super geniuses or unable to master any task at all, we fall along a range with a central cluster.
Since so many of our characteristics exhibit this pattern its not all that surprising to find that our sexual characteristics do too. In fact I think the only reason we actually find it surprising is cultural. So in a way its the reverse of your question at the beginning, if you see what I mean...
Its not is society creating transgender people, its society is creating the idea that transgender people are surprising!
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Or, I might posit, that these different combinations are all that unusual, or that trans folks are different from the rest because of those combinations, when it is far more likely that we probably each represent a unique combination (some of which seen to present more similarly than others, perhaps).
Yes, if I can strain my analogy a bit further without breaking it... :-) If its like height, people who are one and a half meters tall (five feet ish) are extremely common and people who are two meters tall (six and a half ish) are somewhat rarer. But they all exist, and none of them are pretending to be the height that they are because of social height norm pressures. ;-)And five foot six and a half inches is totally a thing!! ;-)
