Constructions of Gender; Conformity and Non; Trans and Cis Experiences

[Bunny]

Also thank you for changing the thread title Katelyn!

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Bunny wrote: "Also thank you for changing the thread title Katelyn!"

It must've been Adam, actually! I saw that comment, and then it completely slipped my mind as I read the rest of them. Sorry about that :)

[Bunny]

Oh, well then thank you Adam! I'm enjoying this conversation so thanks also to Adam for starting it.

[Aglaea]

In regards to science, I find it worthwhile to recall that the question asked is only as strong as the person asking it. By which I mean that if a scientist can't see their own bias, but are asking questions about the planets and galaxies, black holes and more, whilst viewing with only one set of goggles, they are actively excluding the possible existence of other kinds of goggles. I know many scientists from different fields, and those who confess to being atheists usually come with their special brand of bias, the complete lack of welcoming the possible existence of something akin to the Force in Star Wars. This is just to give one example of what can happen to the person asking the questions, when a particular perspective is applied over and over, without ever questioning the perspective itself. Same goes with single-minded scientists investigating sex and gender. In scientific terms this would mean working within, without ever daring/choosing to question the current paradigm. Huge paradigm shifts happen only when someone dares step outside of the box, which is why I like to quote Einstein on his Buddhism views and its potential as (paraphrasing) liaison of science. Basically, many scientists have curiosity and creativity only for so long, until the wall causes their reasoning to come to a halt.

[Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Well, it's gonna take me a while to really read, and not just skim through, all of your mostly wonderful comments. As a cis and (so far) straight woman my life has been notoriously and luckily free of the conflicts that others have faced and that, after a history of partially ongoing repression and misunderstanding, have finally become subject to academic, thorough research that has shed, and will continue to, shed light on the subject. As a result, as I am sure all of my contributions to this forum will prove, I hardly have any knowledge on the topic discussed and have to proceed starting from my own values and willingness to approach these issues. Luckily, the latter is quite genuine, so I hope to start gaining some facts and info from this thread that I can later share in conversations. :)

So far, I think I have managed to grasp successfully the reality of a spectrum as opposed to the rigidly binary construction that was imposed on us, ironically so as it is nothing but yet another human creation, as well as what I perceive to be the incredibly reassuring but also initially scary fact that each of us are, as I believe Bunny said, much more individual than we'd ever dare ourselves to admit.

I think this reassuring but scary quality is what lies at the bottom of all the transphobia and overall the astonishing degree of ignorance that most of us show / used to have with regard to sexual identity, gender and related concepts. The average person out there, and by average I mean cis and, mostly but likely not exclusively, straight, is damn scared of being unapologetically different. What the general audience defines as 'being different' nowadays is often still hardly a culturally and socially approved quirk that ends up being used to just find our crew from a catalogue and stick with them. While this is a natural impulse and many modern societies have finally started to provide alternative outlets for traditionally silenced identities to just be and express themselves, that fear is very much still there.
So what happens when we leave that fear behind and find ourselves able to fully conform to one of the many denominations of The Mainstream? Conformity follows, I guess. The harmful luxury of not having to consider others. It's not even that the average person will actively discriminate trans, queer, agender, asexual, genderfluid, etc. folks, which many do, needless to say. It's the fact that we can sadly navigate through our modern society without having to spend a single brain cell in those folks. Admittedly, one needs a certain level of awareness to be able to actively engage in such an effort. It makes me think of one of our threads here, I Am Not Smart Enough to Be a Feminist. This is a legitimate reason, because not all of us can read research on these topics, and those of us who can have a long way ahead before fully grasping all the concepts. For instance, I have read about transexuality and asexuality and know the basics enough so as to accept and empathize with trans and asexual men and women because I understand, if only as much as I can from my own experience, their pleas. Genderfluid or, more precisely, agender people, though? I confess that it is hard for me to imagine. I now know that such people exist, and because I believe that you have to accept everybody as long as they do not harm others, well, my answer is out of question. But it is, for now, an uninformed one. I've got the basics, though, and reading and listening to others will reinforce my values and help me do my very small part in increasing awareness. Others lack those basics.

Sorry if this was a bit of a rambling, and I hope that my posting here has not derailed the thread. :) If you're thinking tl;dr, well, my bottom line is that at this point in history, we are in charge of articulating a whole construction of the spectrum that gender and sexual identity are that will be able to effectively defy the binary one and that we will pass on to those who come after us. We are in charge of planting the seeds of individuality and tend to them attentively. If we succeed, we may or may not see them bear fruit, but others will and who knows, maybe Katelyn's utopia will become closer to reality. :)

[Bunny]

Thank you very much for joining the conversation Ana! I hope you will comment some more when you've had time to read the rest of the comments through.

I liked what you said about starting from a position of genuine willingness to be open to and learn about the experience of others. I think that makes such a difference. I also agree with what you said about fear and discomfort when faced with difference, that a lot of that fear and discomfort is because we ourselves want to conform or maybe just find a place to fit in? So non conforming people challenge us in ways that can feel pretty scary.

Or at least that's what I got from what you said.

[Ana, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Bunny wrote: "Thank you very much for joining the conversation Ana! I hope you will comment some more when you've had time to read the rest of the comments through.

I liked what you said about starting from a p..."

Thank you for bearing with my bible-length post, haha! Yup, that is pretty much my point of view. It is, indeed, a most basic point to start from, but I believe that precisely because of such basicness, it also bears the potential to go a long way with the average opinion. If we were able to return to the struggles of our own individualities, even within the most decidedly cis and straight side of the spectrum, and if we were able to keep hold of our own experience of individuality and our conquering of said unique status, we would be able to easily empathize with others' struggles. A more advanced level of understanding would most likely, from a realistic point of view, remain a privilege of those with a certain degree of education and / or maturity, but just as in many other fields of knowledge, we do not need to master all spheres of knowledge. Often we just need the 101 of many disciplines to not make a fool of ourselves in public / navigate our realities. Why wouldn't it be the same with this topic? Just being aware of others' realities and identities, and therefore acknowledging them. This would facilitate the inclusion by the authorities in the spheres of power, law, academics, culture, etc. of the necessary constructs and instruments that would in turn introduce a society which would be fit for the entirety of its members. An Utopia indeed, but I've found that the very notion of an utopia, even if unattainable in its entirety, is necessary for mankind to avoid full chaos.

[Paula]

Over the last few years I've read testimonials written by trans* people. In many stories, what makes them realize they are transsexual are things like how there parents expects them to dress, which toys they are allowed to play with and how they are allowed to play. Later it's things like which school subject they are supposed to like, which hobbies are acceptable, and which gender friends they can have.

Here in Sweden there is a feminist movement about giving children options. Parents are protesting gendered clothing and gendered toy catalogs. Day care teachers are educated in gender issues and are helped to become aware of how they treat boys and girls. differently and to change to a more gender neutral approach, and to encourage boys and girls to play together and use all the toys, instead of boys playing with boy toys and girls with girl toys. Professions that have a gender imbalance are given incentives to hire the underrepresented gender.

What I'm wondering is if and how things would change for trans* people if they were raised less gendered?

[Bunny]

Hi Paula, thank you for joining the discussion! I think that you are touching on a central question that the existence of trans gender people definitely forces others to think about in more detail. Its one of the things we are definitely talking about here. How much of our experience of gender is social and cultural and how much of it is biological?

As I said earlier in the thread from what I have been able to understand so far in my reading and study, our sexual identity is probably more biological but the way that we express it is probably more cultural. Which is to say that trans people would still be trans people in a less gendered culture, but the way they expressed that identity, what they chose to wear or what toys they played with would probably be different.

Also to add to this, from things I have read and people I have talked to, in places where trans people have to get approval from a doctor in order to get "permission" they have often in the past needed to exaggerate their identification with gender markers and perform gender quite strongly in order to get the doctors to accept their identity. So for example trans women advise each other to wear a skirt and heels when you go to see the doctor so he will believe that you are really trans. A trans woman wearing trousers will be questioned. Even though as a cis woman I can wear trousers and nobody is going to question whether I'm really a woman.

[Bunny]

I should also say that I believe that the need for trans people to perform gender in exaggerated ways in order to be accepted by cis doctors is diminishing as the identity becomes more accepted and understood but its still got a ways to go.

[Bunny]

I'm just going to park this here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/fas...

[Aglaea]

Bunny wrote: "I should also say that I believe that the need for trans people to perform gender in exaggerated ways in order to be accepted by cis doctors is diminishing as the identity becomes more accepted and..."

There are bad apples among doctors like in any other profession, and they are humans like the rest of us, with their own set of bias etc. With that said, I think people outside of the world of medicine don't necessarily realise the sheer volume of information and the constant need to stay updated merely within one's own field, let alone those that one isn't specialising within.

If a doctor seems open enough, I would encourage patients to just bring along further reading material to well-written resources, because it could be a matter of not knowing where to begin on such a complex topic. And when we don't know where to begin, when time is restricted, it's easier to read stuff that is easily accessible, say news from one's own specialty.

Fact is also that the grassroot level - the patients - are invested in their own disease in ways that a doctor will never be, unless they/a loved one happen to have the same condition, because there's the issue of all the other diseases to stay updated on, too, and in today's societies where internet is a normal part of daily life for many, the patient can hear of the latest news sooner than the doctor does. Discussion forums for particular groups also make sharing of information new and fast in ways that wasn't possible before, but many older doctors might not even be aware of all angles of life online yet. Doesn't mean they wouldn't understand, though, when being made aware of it.

If the doctor and other healthcare personnel don't have information fragility (did I just coin that term?), but are open for a healthy and fruitful collaboration, described best by respect and mutual communication, and which isn't based on hierarchy but the acknowledgement that the patient knows themselves best and the doctor is a consultant rather than god figure, anything is possible.

This, however, means that patients need to understand what the internet in particular means in regards to information creation and flow (there are endless sources and constantly published new research), and as a result be willing to claim some of the responsibility of their own health. I realise healthcare looks very different across the globe, but ideally, we're talking about the next step, collaboration to 100%.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Bunny wrote: "I'm just going to park this here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/fas..."

Why didn't you warn me that this would make me cry at work?!?!?!

[Bunny]

Katelyn wrote: "Bunny wrote: "I'm just going to park this here.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/26/fas..."

Why didn't you warn me that this would make me cry at work?!?!?!"

Lol! Sorry!! Modern Love does that to me too, on the regular!

[Indigo]

Paula wrote: "Over the last few years I've read testimonials written by trans* people. In many stories, what makes them realize they are transsexual are things like how there parents expects them to dress, which..."

Very interesting comment! I think my experiences are what you're looking to hear about, though I will admit they are my experiences alone and my own UNIQUE perceptions of gender and my identity and sexuality and so forth. Other people may share bits and pieces of it but in different ways and never exactly as I do, if that makes sense? :) Okay so with that preface and disclaimer out of the way:

I am a transman. I'm an effeminate, gay man who is demisexual and demiromantic (the demi- means that I need time, trust, and building of a friendship before any desire for sex or romance actually comes up. Not a "prude" or anything, just that I legitimately do not think of someone as someone I want to bed/date until I am friends with them, and there the random wanting to bed/date them desire comes up regardless if they're even the usual gender I go for ...awkwardness has abounded with my girl friends over this eheh...It DID work out with my current boyfriend though yay! <3 ) . I believe that if I was born male instead of female, then I would still be extremely feminine and interested in other men regardless. However, this is how I choose to identify myself because it is the closest to how I feel and the terms link me to radically awesome groups that feel like kindred spirits to me. *waves at them with a grin*

I was raised pretty gender-neutral by my feminist mother who is very much a masculine woman, logical, very low levels of emotions, steady and practical, a professional engineer and thinks of things in a scientific way. I played with both barbies, dinosaur figurines, stuffed animals, building blocks, toy cars, dress up in sparkly gowns, computer games that had math and science in it [I was a huge dinosaur nerd growing up lol], pretended I was different kinds of animals and played games with others where we were all animals, and the like. Very diverse. I loved to draw and have been drawing since I was 2 years old. I can enjoy wrestling and tickle fights more than my girl friends, but am not into sports at all unlike my guy friends. My long-term slow progressive chronic health issue does make a huge impact over me not being very athletic or inclined towards exercise that ends up hurting me severely for days on end afterwards. Needing time alone to rest and recharge led me to making friends with introspection and being alone and as a result I made friends with myself and got to know who I was when other people were busy tapping away at cellphones and messaging. It also helped improve my daydreaming and that directly benefits my fantasy writing career today. I've always been more for fire-breathing dragons and cats like tigers than unicorns, horses, ponies, or faeries.

With all that as a disclaimer, I will have you know that I believed myself to be just a "different sort of girl" until I became a teenager. I knew from my mother and aunts that girls could do and be anything they wanted to be and still identify as a girl, no problems. Same with wearing or feeling or liking anything. So there was nothing to tell me that anything was unusual (even my attraction to boys and men was considered "normal" and "acceptable" and got me labled as a straight girl). Not until I was a teenager that was lol. Though I had some clues when I was young and complained about how unnatural the bouncing chest felt, and how every period felt like my body was having diarrhea or some sort of nasty "WRONG" kind of "sickness." My mom always brushed it off as "oh other girls/women do too, or they don't like periods either." I harbored secret fantasies of what it'd be like to have a penis from even a very young age but I never thought anything of it because I knew it was "wrong" somehow and never told anybody and aside from that nothing was too odd or obvious.

Then I realized all my girl friends were getting into fashion and makeup and being "pretty" starting at a certain age, while my guy friends were all talking animatedly about sports and games and being "tough." I felt pretty alienated from either side and left in some other nebulous otherland because I just wanted to talk about books, art, dragons, magic, fantasy, and play games of pretending to be animals so that I would get a nice break from always having to be a "human" all the time. That was another clue that "being human" aka "conforming to what other people expect me to do and behave like" was starting to get too much for me at times.

Yet even with all that, I never once realized something might be different, that I might be transgender even when one of my friends outed himself as a transman (I thought since I didn't hate my breasts with the fiery passion he did, that somehow that didn't make me a transgender at all). Not until I got into watching porn online and then dared to check out the men with men porn. I was first extremely confused and then shocked at realizing that I had an intense craving want to join them, but not as a woman. I wanted to so bad to join them AS a man and being fully male and giving and receiving alongside them too. That was the hammer blow I needed to smash all the certainty I had up until then that I was a straight girl.

It lead to a lot of confused soul searching and trying to reconcile what I thought was a girl identity with an unabashedly gay man sexuality. I realized that my identity as a "girl" was ...very nebulous. I always assumed other people felt the same way, and just used it for myself because well that's what seemed to fit okay right? ...Yet I always had the feeling something was off and weird about me and like I had to hide the features I was damn proud of if they were too "masculine" in order to "fit in" with the girls. (Thanks to having PCOS I had facial hair when boys my age had only one single hair or none. I was extremely proud about this and had fought for a time with my parents and friends about "shaving it off to not look like a man" until I relented. I've always been proud of that ability though.)

When I was seen as and reacted to like I was a man wearing a dress at one convention, my reaction wasn't horror or disgust. My reaction was an intense surge of JOY and giddiness that was so shocking for its intensity and how it wasn't "normal" to feel that way. That moment would be called "gender euphoria" instead of the better-known "gender dysphoria." The latter is when your body shape does not match your inner perception and need for your body to be shaped like, thus causing pain, distress, upset, or a vague sense of persistent unease like I had for so long that I nearly forgot about it or didn't realize others didn't have this too. Gender euphoria is when you are seen or responded to in the way you feel yourself to truly be and is extremely validating to what your true identity is.

Even then with all that I was hesitant. I wanted to test this out and feel out, bit by bit, what exactly WAS me through experimenting. I inched my way slowly to being androgynous, calling myself genderfluid, and noticing along the way the responses, my subsequent reactions and feelings, and looking for what seemed to be closer and closer to what felt "right" for me as a person. I kept swinging back and forth like a pendulum from feminine to masculine and back over the central completely androgynous line. Now I have a pretty good idea what is right for me but I still harbor a lot of dysphoria over having to hide so much of my body to even be taken as a "man" when I want so bad to wear tight and pretty clothing like my fellow effeminate gay men and sashay and swing my hips and show off my beautiful body and yet CLEARLY taken and received and interpreted as a man, a male, doing this.

My breasts right now are the biggest obstacle in that path because I've found if people see even a HINT of a damn curve on the chest, a DAMN hint of too-wide hips underneath the t-shirt, they will respond to you as a woman. Sometimes its enough to make me want to punch something. As a result I have to dress and present far more masculine than I naturally want to do, just to even be read AS a man and not a "masculine butch lesbian" which is...no...just no. "Masculine butch lesbian" and "Effeminate gay man" are surprisingly close on the gender presentation spectrum but they are a WORLD of difference in reality and baggage and community they live with.

Be read as a masculine butch lesbian and you're read as female-bodied, a woman, and being all "tough" and "fighter-like" and "masculine" and will start to get girls interested in you because they think you're a lesbian, and guys who treat you as a "tough chick" which is still very different from how they treat other men.

Be read as an effeminate gay men and you're read as a male-bodied, a man, and being all sensitive, sweet, gentle, receptive and feminine and you get girls interested in you for their "gay best friend who knows fashion" and you can FINALLY draw in other gay men who recognize you as a relationship prospect and flirt with you. They would steer clear of you if you seem female-bodied and a woman. The things I must do to connect with my kindred social group and have a chance at attracting, drawing in, and dating other gay men. *tears and sighs*

Also I'm NOT your "rough and tumble" "fighter" kind of personality. I flinch from pain and violence. I'd rather talk things out than to fight. I'm terrified of being interpreted as someone who can fight and then get people who want to beat me up as a "test" of their own fighting prowess. I'm VERY happy to be read as who I am, a kind, sweet, articulate and gentle soul that'd much rather be your friend then hit anybody (I will make exceptions if a douchebag is not taking "no" from my girl friends though =.= Buddy you and I are going DOWN. =.= Nobody messes with MY friends! *cracks knuckles*)

Well this was very wordy and rambling but I hope y'all like and appreciate this? It's my experiences of being a transman who wants to express myself as feminine and yet be read and reacted to as a man. (Gods damn the LOOKS you get if you're read as a woman, especially from men, is almost soul-scarring at times E__E... But that's a story for another time.)

Also it fits in with this group's topic since I didn't figure out I was a transman by the conventional path of being forced to wear or play with things or be interested in things that I didn't want to or feel natural for me. I had to figure it out a bit of a different way though I wish I could've figured it out when I was much younger and thus eligible for hormone suppressors so then whatever choice I made [most likely with male hormones, testosterone] would've actually made my body fit me a LOT better than it is right now. *siiiiiiighs* Lost chances, a LOT of lost time, and a hellava lot more money needed in reconstruction surgery to modify the body now. x.- But moving on from that gloom-fest.

Loving this discussion! I love what you said so far Bunny because it does fit with all the things I've found out myself in my own research, life experiences, and talking with other awesome people in the LGBT+ community. :3 <3 Stay strong and fabulous everyone!

[Aglaea]

Indigo wrote: "Paula wrote: "Over the last few years I've read testimonials written by trans* people. In many stories, what makes them realize they are transsexual are things like how there parents expects them t..."

Well hello wordy comment. I LOVE it. Thank you so much! It's like a straight line into your mind and you have no idea of what that does to me, it's like the sun comes out after months of grey skies and rain.

And now that the self-centered reaction is out of the way, I do think wordy is better because how else are we to understand the finer nuances?

The reason for my lengthy post earlier about healthcare professionals and the limitations they face in regards to staying up-to-date about latest news is this exactly. Humans want to box things up, and like you say, if there's even a whiff of breast or hip curve to be seen, we automatically do the connection to either this or that. It isn't necessarily about wanting to discriminate or such, but merely lack of information, and your post is very valuable for that reason. I will file it away and if needed, link to it in the future.

You used the word normal. 'Normal' and 'not-normal' need to go away yesterday when we talk about sex, gender and sexuality. It pains me how people feel like judging others, when all they need for themselves is a good go in their own bedroom to stop being so tightly wound up... Relaxation is good for all and sundry, and perhaps focus could be more in one's own bedroom than the neighbour's (*). When the judging begins, all I hear is a violin string disastrously off key, and this intense headache begins with a wish to just shut the fuck up, and live and let others live. You know?

In an old issue of Out magazine there was a nice article about gay men boxing in Brooklyn, I think, and they have featured trans* and gay athletes last year, too. This particular thread obviously opens up also other topics in regards to sports and performance, and I haven't thought enough about this yet to have formed any sort of clear opinions. Has there been discussions like this in your circle yet?

RuPaul has a show on Netflix where the contestants are competing as drag queens, and I have to say that all the vocabulary is still rather new and a bit confusing, but I do hope it doesn't sound like I'm not open to the concepts at least :) Have a lovely day!


(*) No negative meant against asexual! They just seem like a rather non-judgmental bunch, and I didn't include them in this commentary at all.

[Paula]

Indigo wrote: "Paula wrote: "Over the last few years I've read testimonials written by trans* people. In many stories, what makes them realize they are transsexual are things like how there parents expects them t..."

Thank you for sharing your personal story! I really appreciate that.

It makes sense in a way that dating is a tricky situation. As long as people select their lover according to gender first and preference second, anyone who is not obviously of the right gender and sexual orientation will be dismissed as a non-candidate.

By the way, I would have loved to talk about books and dragons with you as a teen. I'm very grateful I can connect with like-minded people over the internet today; I was quite lonely growing up.

[Bunny]

Thank you so much for joining the conversation Indigo, your voice is a really important contribution! I particularly liked what you said about how your experience is unique and Other people may share bits and pieces of it but in different ways and never exactly as I do, if that makes sense? :) That totally makes sense to me.

Personally I really identified with what you said about your experience of your own identity and gender and sexuality being a long unfolding process. That makes sense to me. I sometimes think my whole life is a long slow process of coming back to who I was at three years old but this time with the skills to understand and articulate and celebrate that same person that I always was.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Indigo, thank you for your honest and open post! It means a lot that you are comfortable about sharing with us :) I particularly liked your description about experiencing gender euphoria. And sorry to hear about the expense that awaits should you choose to pursue surgery... It's so frustrating. Health care has come a long way but there's still a lot that needs to be done in order to fully take care of everyone regardless of gender identity.

[Indigo]

Thank y'all for the very supportive feedback there! :) It helps a lot to hear that my experiences are so well received and help others in their knowledge about other people and the world. :D <3

@Katelyn, I feel like not enough people understand gender euphoria or that it doesn't get talked about a lot but it's one of the crucial ways we transfolk know that we're on the right path with our transitions. :3 There's absolutely nothing like the surge of giddy joy that you get when you're seen for who you are or responded to in a way that matches your perceptions of your own gender identity. <3

@Paula, I would've loved to talk books and dragons with you too! :) <3 It's kinda sad it was hard for people like us to find others who felt the same way. I do agree with you on the difficulties of dating especially when people evaluate prospective partners by apparent gender and sexuality of the other only. I mean I get how it's helpful for eliminating those who are obviously not the "type" you go for, but it can be difficult for us who are that type in truth but don't have a body that lines up or agrees with us, which can really throw a wrench into the works.

@Bunny, I'm so glad it makes sense to you! That's how I feel and I'm glad that it resonates well with others too. :)

@Aglaea, you can definitely quote me on that in the future! Btw hearing of what reading my comment to you was like, brought such a smile to my face that I really needed. :) You have such a nice way of expressing things with words and metaphors too so I really appreciated that honesty there in return! I'm so glad y'all didn't mind my long comment since I've gotten some comments and complaints about it in the past lol, but I just like to ramble, go into details, and share what I think is fitting to the situation and then when I end it to my satisfaction it's so long! I do regularly read long comments myself so I suppose its more of me just writing what I love to read best. :) Not everybody will agree but that's okay!

I definitely agree with you on the need to educate the providers because I've had to do that a LOT lately and not just for my gender, but for my chronic illness that is rather uncommon and has a diagnosis of elimination so you have to rule out EVERYTHING it can possibly be before it gets confirmed. x.- What a headache! I do really wish people would stop trying to categorize ANYONE who has even a hint of a chest and curves as automatically a "woman." It's so aggravating sometimes. Like there somehow aren't men out there who have fat on their chest to the degree of breasts that are greater than a good number of women and yet can still walk around bare chested because they're readily accepted as male-bodied and therefore men. But that particular rant is best saved for another time I think.

I laughed so hard when I read your comment about the uptight people who so need to get some. XD I thoroughly agree with your analysis (and the asexual addendum) *high fives you!* I feel the same way when the judging begins. :/ I really wish "normal" and "not-normal" could be taken out of people's vocabulary when it comes to gender, sex, sexuality, and romantic orientations and all.

I AM glad that the magazine featured transmen and gay men though! About bloody time I say! Last I heard there's still controversy over including transwomen into woman-only sports and teams. My attitude towards it is simple. It is "they are a woman are they not? Therefore, they fit and should be able to go to it." And if anyone protests about "boys can use this to perve on girls in their locker rooms!" I say back to them, "They do not identify as a boy, but rather as a girl. And I would bet to you she would be so self-conscious and worried about her own safety to really care much about doing anything to others. The rate of attacks from transfolk on cisfolk is zero people. The rate of attacks from cisfolk on transfolk is in the tens of thousands and climbing, if not millions if you count world-wide statistics. WE ARE FREAKIN' PARANOID FOR A DAMN GOOD REASON that we would be killed and murdered and beat up and tortured by the people around us if we put a single foot out of line or seem too obviously "different" to "pass" (must we use that word seriously?) as "normal." Thank you and good day."

Yeah sorry it got a bit ranty and angry that pseudo-reply but I have a lot of justified anger towards such situations that me and my trans family face on a daily basis even here in America the country I live in. Every day politicians seek to try to undo the progress my community has fought for in blood, sweat, tears, and literal lives to gain the equal rights and protections as everyone else. The ones from the southern parts are regularly the worst. Yet there is still a lot of bigotry lingering in the north too over everything from racism to sexism, to ableism, to homophobia, to transphobia, to classism, and more. We're getting better bit by bit thankfully but we still have a long way to go.

At least we're making progress from where we used to be in the olden days. YAY! Thanks for all your wonderful responses btw everyone. :3 <3

[Indigo]

I will be putting this section under a spoiler tag. The reason why I am doing so is because I am aware of how things like this have inspired anger and defensiveness in people who have not had occasion to be aware of this happening in their lives, or do not wish to think about the implications that such laying it out as I and many others have seen and experienced it in our lives. I've seen these things devolve into some pretty nasty fights and arguments and hate-flinging on many sides as a result from trying to lay out things that are not accepted by the dominant cultural narrative.

Mods feel free to delete this if seen as necessary though I would be sorry if it was deleted due to the fact that after much going-back-and-forth about whether to even mention this part at all, I ultimately decided that the importance of raising awareness outweighed the potential anger and negative reaction I may face from doing so. Other activists have risked and received much anger and hatred from laying things out on the table that most people [read: the people with privilege who do not have to think of such things in their lives or as happening to the ones they know and love] have never thought about, are not aware of, or do not want to think about because surely their society cannot be that bad even today in the modern age! Like them, I will take a deep breath, take the plunge, and leave it out there for people to read at their own discretion. Hence why I am putting it all under the spoiler tag.

Also the usual disclaimer applies in which this is my thoughts, beliefs, opinions, experiences, emotions, and research and this is coming from that vantage point and perspective. I have done a lot of research for my novels to be as respectful as possible for different people, different cultures, history, religion, mythology, and the like. I have noticed some disturbing trends in that research that counters a lot of the dominant social narrative and what a lot of people, usually white people, and almost always the white cismen, like to believe and tell themselves and hear about their society and the history of that society. Those trends are also what inspires such anger and frustration in me that's expressed in the spoiler tags, regardless of the fact that I myself am a white man even if I am a gay transgender man.

Thank you for reading this preface and disclaimer, as well as a warning, and I hope you have a good day regardless.

(view spoiler)[
Actually I don't know if y'all are aware of this, but we transmen actually have a privilege in the trans community. Most particularly white transmen like me who are benefiting not just from the intersection of white privilege and patriarchy, but also the way this culture is set up to reward handsomely straight, cisgender, white men. The need for feminism is real and greatly dire. I hear about the murders and suicides and beat downs and torture of transwomen of color almost every day. All because they aren't white, aren't a man, and worse of all are perceived as "sicko men dressing up as a woman and fooling good honest men into thinking they have a vag down there when they have a dick!" Aka "liars, freaks, seducers, frauds, tricksters," and more. All this because while it's acceptable for women to dress as man to the point that I have to actually go even more extreme to be read AS a man and not as a woman in men's clothing, if a man or male-bodied person DARES to wear feminine stuff his life is still on the line from other men who will violently enforce the patriarchy. We all need feminism to help us and the transwomen the most of all. No matter how vicious cismen will be to women who they perceive as "stepping out of the women gender box" they will multiply that violence by 1,000 to any transwomen and thus cause huge loss of life due to their so-called "transphobia."

I really wish we had a proper -ism word for what we currently describe as "transphobia" and "homophobia." The other stuff has -ism words why not those two? Oh right, because the violent assholes who kill members of the LGBT+ community CLAIM to be doing it because they felt "scared."

I shall quote the wonderful Morgan Freeman about this: "I hate the word homophobia. It's not a phobia. You are not scared. You are an asshole." I believe this fits perfectly with so-called "transphobia" too.

I said this because I noticed a lot of ya didn't seem to know much about the LGBT+ despite doing some good scientific-backed research there. Science does go a long way towards proving what we of the LGBT+ community have long been yelling and calling out and demanding and insisting upon based on our actual accumulative experiences. Now here's a bit of the down and dirty, nitty gritty stuff of what it's like to live AS a transgender in this society of America at the very least. As well as a bit of the intersectionality that makes transwomen need feminism perhaps the most of anybody. Especially transwomen of color.

//Warning this next section may be rather difficult to read for some people//

The above is also why I have zero patience for so-called feminists that turn around and spit in my trans sisters' faces as if they are still riding high on privileges they don't actually have anymore once they've come out and started being out about being a woman with an assigned male body. They actually having less to some extent if you interpret privilege as a protective shield, since they’re regularly killed in a higher proportion than ciswomen are. Ciswomen may have the numbers but they also have the sheer numbers of their natural population compared to that of the transwomen to start with. That’s why proportions are what I’m going back. Well one thing I can definitely say is that no matter how much a good deal of cismen hates women, they generally hate transwomen more than anything else. Especially straight, white, cismen.

Yeah, there’re straight, white cismen who don't follow that, and there’re great and awesome decent sorts who actually know common sense and basic human decency. But when the vast majority of the group that regularly beats up, tortures, rapes, then kills transwomen, especially transwomen of color, turns out to be the straight, white, cismen... I think I have some basis in saying what I do.

And I notice the same pattern repeating in the brutal beat downs, strangle-holds, torture, rape, and murder of POC in general, gay men, men wearing dresses, women in general, and POC women in particular, and seeing it repeat in transfolk in general and anyone who does not fit the stereotypes and it's always the straight, white, cismen that make the headlines by shooting them up. Gee I wonder why? (that question was sarcastic, btw) This basically has lead me to eyeing any white cismen I see on the streets or don't know with suspicion and wariness, all the more so if they're older around my parents' age. I already did so before with how many of them [even my grandparents' age] would blatantly leer at me even when I was clearly underage just because I wore a damn skirt for once because I wanted to see how it felt. Nope the boys my age at that time (15 to 16) completely ignored me and my girl friends. The real threat were those older men who ignored the fact I had my mother AND father with me and clearly related to me and still felt so confident as to check me out like they wanted to rape me. My mistrust of them never changed but only grew as I learned more about what the majority of threats, abusers, murderers, rapists, and so forth are all straight, cisgender, white men for the large part. That’s always "explained away" as just a "single, solitary crazy nutcase" (never mind that's ableist as all heck), even when a very disturbing trend is clear to anyone with eyes to see it. Sadly, they wish for us to think it’s the black men that's the danger because of long racial profiling and hatred painting black men as the "savages" when it’s really the straight, white, cismen who have dealt most of the damage culturally, historically, around the world, and within our societies.

Yeah I want to tear down patriarchy with a fiery passion thanks to this. I want to tear down the white supremacy and ways of thinking. I want to tear down the sexism, hatred of anything feminine, and the power structures in place so that people could actually be equal for the first time ever. Call me angry, but I'll say the same thing as all the other minorities have long been saying, screaming, shouting, or growling under their breath: "We are angry for a reason. And we are using this anger to propel our actions to change this society to become a better place for us all. No exceptions."

//end rant//

*steps off soapbox now and ahem* Okay I'm done. For those who managed to read all the way down here, I love y’all you’re awesome!
(hide spoiler)]

[Bunny]

I hear you Indigo. I don't really understand the hatred but there's no question it is there, and it is virulent.

I posted this in the "Intersectionality, What is It? What is it Not?" thread, but it works here too. I like what Reverend Barber, President of the North Carolina NAACP said when announcing their opposition to the North Carolina "bathroom bill."

"It's not about bathrooms, just like segregated bathrooms was never about bathrooms...It was about a political statement; it was about oppression; it was about having public signs of domination."

Domination, oppression and violence. That's why intersectionality matters because these are patterns, and they repeat, and they are recognizable and they are interconnected. If we don't look at the interconnections then we miss what's going on.

http://mic.com/articles/140393/black-...

[Henriette]

@Indigo - thank you! Your story is beautiful! And I am so happy that your voice comes off so happy and confident. (I haven't read your latest post - my phone wont remove the spoiler, but I will).

[Aglaea]

Indigo wrote: "I will be putting this section under a spoiler tag. The reason why I am doing so is because I am aware of how things like this have inspired anger and defensiveness in people who have not had occas..."

Well, you're awesome, too, and clearly very brave (but also healthily cautious by using an alias) for speaking up, so I thank you from the bottom of my heart for it. Truly.

With that said, I'm not surprised at all that it is white people, who do the killings. Just think about how for instance KKK are still behaving, it's mind-boggling. At least the frequent lynchings and leaving bodies out aren't acceptable anymore :/ Some nutjob here managed to throw a Molotov cocktail at refugees, all in the name of KKK.

Unfortunately there are few things that surprise me in human nature anymore, but I also wish to take the opportunity to show how there is hope still:

(Nature's own declaration that gender is a social construct)
"The extraordinary case of the Guevedoces"
http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-3429...

"Soccer’s Fa’afafine Superstar"
http://www.out.com/entertainment/spor...

"Trans Teen Wins Appeal in Virginia Bathroom Case"
http://www.out.com/news-opinion/2016/...

[Bunny]

Parking this, back in a minute with a comment.

http://www.wakingthefeminists.org/201...

This is a write up about an exhibition of photographs of transgender youth by an Australian photographer who asked them to help design their own photo shoots.

"My grandfather said years and years ago, 'People fear what they don't know' she said. "This is why I'm doing this - to show its not something to be feared. They're not choosing this for attention, this is real, its their life, its reality."

There are some really beautiful photos here.

[Bunny]

I thought about making a separate thread for this but then I thought naw, why do that, this thread is about gender and how people experience gender so it totally fits!

I saw an interesting essay pop up this morning about men struggling with fatherhood and choosing whether to have a boy or girl, and I encourage you to read the whole thing, but for those who don't I'll quote a bit of it here.

"In many cultures, a strong preference, or even a mandate, for male babies — leading some women to have sex-selective abortions — has resulted in a huge gender gap. ...The moral implications, not to mention the long-term consequences in places like China and India, are harrowing. The root of this preference is old and deeply driven by economic and sociological circumstances.

And yet,...In this part of the world, particularly among middle- and upper-middle-class fathers-to-be, I’ve noticed a fascinating trend: they seem to disproportionately desire having a girl instead of a boy.

I’m not the United Nations Population Fund. I’m an informal, untrained pollster of one, but... I’ve got a hunch: I think that young, upwardly mobile men in this country have a tremendous amount of ambivalence about masculinity itself, and one place that this largely unspoken ambivalence is showing up is in their preference for female children.

I took to Facebook to test my hunch, and these are the kinds of responses I got:

"I think my partner was slightly afraid of his ability to raise a non-violent, un-entitled son in our society. He felt better equipped to co-parent a strong, confident daughter."

"My husband had zero experience being around little boys and as others have suggested was afraid of failing a boy in terms of modeling healthy masculinity."

My own husband, John, preferred a girl, not once, but twice over (and got ‘em!). When I asked him to articulate why,...he set his laptop down, looked up as if searching the ceiling for answers, and after a few moments said, “I haven’t felt like I fit into a lot of the social norms around masculinity, in terms of the kinds of things that are held up as important to men ...”

...Which makes me wonder: why wouldn’t that lead you to be motivated to raise a boy who doesn’t have to subscribe to all that?

“Overcoming those things feels really impossible,” John replies. “

Rest of it is here: http://www.onbeing.org/blog/courtney-...
What do you think?

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Thought I'd share this too: http://www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/th...

"These Photos Show Trans And Gender Diverse Kids As They Want To Be Seen"

[Bunny]

Katelyn wrote: "Thought I'd share this too: http://www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/th...

"These Photos Show Trans And Gender Diverse Kids As They Want To Be Seen""

Ha ha criss cross applesauce!! I posted that same exhibition!!

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Bunny wrote: "Katelyn wrote: "Thought I'd share this too: http://www.buzzfeed.com/lanesainty/th...

"These Photos Show Trans And Gender Diverse Kids As They Want To ..."

Oops! In this thread?? I must've missed it! Sorry about that :D

[Bunny]

No worries it just shows we both have good taste :-)!

[Bunny]

I think I'm just going to hang out in this folder from now on. Anybody want to talk? I thought those kid photos were great, but of course kids are always super cute.

I was walking around my neighborhood today and was looking at people and thinking about gender markers and social signaling. I was thinking its hair and clothes and the way people move that makes them look different from each other. I was thinking about why we have social rules about which signals and markers people are permitted to use.

Then I was thinking about sumptuary laws, the old laws in Europe that different classes of people were not allowed to wear the same clothes. And other such like restrictions. Do we now police gender the way we used to police class?

[Kerry]

I'm coming from a place of learning, absorbing, expanding my knowledge so I don't always feel I have substantial content to contribute here sometimes (or just yet) but it's already feeding my brain and expanding my thought patterns so I'm grateful for that.

For example, I came across this article this morning, http://www.vox.com/2016/4/24/11495344... and my first thought was this thread. Looking to pop culture can sometimes be problematic but I was happy to see this perspective on the rather generic main "Yahoo" page because reaching the masses regarding a subject many think as outlandish (because they fail to even attempt to understand) is often a challenge. Not to say all who read it will shift their thinking but I see the accessibility of it as a positive.

This is the particular excerpt that stood out and I thought I'd share: Chelsea Reynolds says, My own research suggests that we shouldn't be so quick to judge potential discordances in Prince's identity politics. How you dress or behave sexually need not determine your gender or sexual identity. Further, many gender and sexuality scholars (such as myself) understand gender and sexual expression as essentially fluid. Self-identifying one way today doesn't always mean you'll feel the same way tomorrow — or 10 years from now.

That is, academic studies have shown that gender — a person's self-reported identity on a scale from male to female — is fluid; it can change over time. Which is to say that theorists of gender understand it as existing on a gray-scale, where genderqueer and non-binary people identify somewhere between male and female, and the majority identify on the poles. This isn't stable.

An even more ample body of literature demonstrates that sexual orientation — a person's self-reported identity on a scale of straight to gay — is fluid; it can change over time. While a person might identify as somewhere on the bi- or poly-spectrum through his youth (as Prince often did), he may later understand his sexuality as heterosexual and monogamous."

[Indigo]

Well in the same sumptuary laws, gender was policed too because only women could wear certain things, like dresses, and had to wear them a certain length or be seen as "amoral" and "fallen women." And men could only wear certain other things too, but still had a lot of fashion because they didn't have to be worried about being mistaken for "men who want to have sex with men" like today's men are worried about. Which is why some people have analyzed that and rightfully (to my eyes at least) complained about how the worry of being mistaken as an effeminate gay man when they're straight and macho men, keeps them from having some good fashion back again such as nicely fitted shirts and pants, nice styles that are more than just shirts and pants, and so on.

I mean they had NICE leg emphasizing during the Revolutionary War period in America due to how showing a muscular leg was thought as the height of manliness back then. They also wore heels because that was a man's thing back then, and it emphasized the calf and thigh of the leg as well so therefore manly. Now heels are considered a woman's thing, and ironically has the tables flipped? Showing a nice curvy leg is now a woman's thing, and damn there's so many baggy pants going around for men and an abhorrence of wearing heels now. Coincidence? I think not. *sighs*

Why can't we already be at the point where people can wear what they damn well want without getting shade and judgment from others? If you wanna wear baggy clothes, go right ahead! If you wanna wear tight-fitting clothing, go right ahead! And it doesn't reflect on your moral character or presumed sexuality either! :3 (If only.)

Anyways, I agree with you Bunny. :) It's the hair and clothing, the way people move and hold themselves and hell even sit, and the way the clothing drapes the body that makes them different from each other and identifiable as certain genders (whether or not they're actually that gender!) Speaking as someone who had to first be trained to walk a girly way, and then had to untrain that and figure out how the heck to walk a guy way, there's different walks, postures, ways of sitting and taking up space, that label you as a guy or a girl. And none of this is natural! If it was natural we'd be doing it from birth c'mon people. -p- That swagger with drooped shoulders and lowered head ain't natural, that big hip-swing as you walk with shoulders back and head up ain't natural. And why yes I believe manspreading is a thing and wonder what the heck is up with that.

My boyfriend wonders the same thing too because he told me (this was kinda funny for me due to the culture clash lol) that where he comes from, spreading one's legs that much means the same thing for a man as it does for a woman - i.e. you really want someone to go down on you. XD I laughed because I could just IMAGINE the looks on the guys I know who were raised here all their lives if they heard that juicy little bit! But it DOES bring up a good point. Why is the same pose interpreted very different ways whether a guy does it or a girl. If a guy does it, he's a MAN. *fake poses with arms curled* If a girl does it, she's a sexual object to be leered at and is considered as "inviting someone into her space for something sexy." ............ *blank stare* Uh huh. Right. At least my boyfriend sees it the same way regardless of the gender who's doing it and that's why I had to explain to him why there were SO MANY MEN doing that over here, when they don't really spread their legs even half as far where my boyfriend's family comes from. So no, guys, it ain't a "balls need air and space" issue. It's something completely different and that's just the social justification covering the real reason.

Anyways, I love discussing things like this because believe me I've had to change SO MUCH of my presentation and behavior to be taken either as a girl when I was going as such younger, or as a man now. So much. It's ridiculous.

I'd love to hear what you guys think! :D

[Bunny]

Kerry wrote: "I'm coming from a place of learning, absorbing, expanding my knowledge so I don't always feel I have substantial content to contribute here sometimes (or just yet) but it's already feeding my brain..."

Thanks for sharing Kerry! I really like the connection with Prince as well as the observation that people's identities can be more fluid than commonly assumed. And really why not? I mean so much else about my personality changes over time, why not that too?

I think in some ways the fight for human rights for all gender and sexual identities has fostered a political need to assert those identities as more fixed. Because its turned out to be a useful argument to say that its not fair to take away someone's civil rights over something they can't change, But if you suggest those identities can change over time, then there's a fear that we slide back into garbage like saying that gay people can be "cured."

Honestly, in the long run I think we will come around to the understanding that its unjust to take away a person's civil rights for an identity that isn't hurting anyone else regardless of how fixed it may be. But maybe we aren't quite there yet.

I think this need to hold the line against the implication that people could be straight if they just tried harder so there's no need to accommodate other identities may also be connected to how even the LGBT community isn't always that accepting of bisexual people, and there's a sort of pressure to "pick a side." Maybe? I feel like there may be a connection there.

Indigo wrote: "Well in the same sumptuary laws, gender was policed too because only women could wear certain things, like dresses, and had to wear them a certain length or be seen as "amoral" and "fallen women." ..."

Yes, that's true, there was gender policing and class policing and also profession policing, certain professions were required or prohibited from wearing certain things, and nationality, and religion and other markers too. Its like in the past everybody was really sort of required to wear a uniform that let other people identify their place in society on sight, if you see what I mean?

The enforcement of all those markers has been fading slowly, but they aren't gone yet! I'm really interested in what you say about intentionally learning different presentations, I'd love to talk more about that, for a number of reasons including that I'm actually the child of actors, so learning to carry yourself to reflect different identities is something felt familiar and comfortable with through that connection even before I started to get interested in it in regard to gender presentation.

More in a bit, I have to run do a thing! Glad you were around to talk with. Hope we can keep going!

[Bunny]

Oh and with regard to Prince, have you seen the meme that's been floating around that says just put the symbol for the artist formerly known as Prince on all the bathrooms and be done with it? Love that. I think it would be a fine memorial to have him become the patron of not being nosy about other people in bathrooms.

[Bunny]

Oh also manspreading!! Indigo wrote: "At least my boyfriend sees it the same way regardless of the gender who's doing it and that's why I had to explain to him why there were SO MANY MEN doing that over here, when they don't really spread their legs even half as far where my boyfriend's family comes from. So no, guys, it ain't a "balls need air and space" issue. It's something completely different and that's just the social justification covering the real reason. ." ..."

There's a section in Huckleberry Finn that always makes me smile, he's trying to pose as a girl at one point to avoid being hauled back home after he ran away, so he's wearing a dress and a bonnet and he stops at a house where a woman catches him out. She's got him helping her wind wool so his hands are full and then she tosses a hank of yarn over to him and he claps his legs together to catch it. She tells him if you want to pass as a girl you have to spread your legs apart and catch things in your skirt. Always makes me smile with how things change because when I was a girl I was constantly told never to spread my legs apart because skirts were shorter by that time. I actually had etiquette classes where I learned how to get up and down from a chair and in and out of a car with my knees together...but then my granny was a stickler.

[Indigo]

Lol I never read the book but it just goes to show you how much gender norms really change even in a single generation, let alone multiple. Yet so many people are somehow convinced that the norms that they grew up with were somehow solid, unchanging, and exactly like that for centuries, even millennia before them, even when the evidence mounts that this is so not the case. It's quite curious don't you think? I wonder if its part of the common fallback of human intellect and conceptualizing of things. Like to think the way you grew up was therefore the way your ancestors always grew up... when that just ain't so. Perhaps that's already linked to or somehow described by scientist as the "good old days" syndrome when we romanticize the past and forget the bad things that happened there in preference for the good.

Anyways, putting the symbol for the artist formerly known as Prince on all the bathrooms would be funny. I wonder what would've been his reaction if he was still living or able to hear about that even after death? lol.

That's very interesting what you say there Bunny about being the children of actors! I always had an interest in acting in the theoretical perspective of being able to shed one's current identity and way of being to adopt - for a short time - another personality and character in a socially approved situation. It's quite tantalizing especially since it would be more on my terms! However, due to my health issues and also to the period of when I had the energy to be interested, I still didn't have enough required for something so demanding and never got into it. Also my perfectionism at the time was quite harsh and I didn't think myself good enough to deal with it.

As for having to change my presentation to be taken as a man instead of a woman, I find myself having to consciously be aware of how I'm sitting [never have legs crossed at the thighs or let alone pressed against each other from thigh to ankle because guys cannot do this latter pose with balls in the way, have legs spread whenever possible, wide chest, take up space], how I'm standing [shoulders down a bit, hunched over to seem like "less of a threat" to other men, head down more, slouch which also helps disguise the chest too, hips more forward so the torso is leaning back a bit, and if you have hands in your pockets then have the thumbs out as something that's subtly more forward than just hiding all of your hands, walk with a bit of a wider-spread leg swagger], also no hip swaying or minimal of that though I swear I see a lot of guys have hip sway, it just isn't as prominent as women have it due to not just the smaller hips but also less emphasis on it.

There's more than just that of course. Deeper gruffer voice, shorter hair, facial hair can help, no shaving legs. If hand shaking then make your handshake firm and longer than just a short, brief one. Avoid people's eyes, don't stare. Staring at another man is generally interpreted as something more aggressive. Almost like a threat. Yet - in that FAMOUS double-standard, ugh - staring at women is common as all hell regardless of the fact that if you do the same exact stare to a man, you're gonna get a fist-fight. *face palm* Also have what is called a "resting b-tch face" to kind of silently tell other men to back off and give you space and "don't f-ck with me" sort of thing.

Also if you hug someone, clap their back because apparently they cannot hug another dude without seeming "omg gay!!! or GIRLY!!!!" without pounding the hell out of the other guy's back. Same with lack of makeup, baggy clothing, no real skin care to speak of, sometimes lack of deodorant [when they need it the MOST X__X], little to no facial expressions, hiding all emotions deep inside, few laughter, and almost like you're trying to win an audition to be a robot, practically. *sarcastic tone on the robot part*

Though the perks are great, at least from my perspective. :3 DEEP proper and plentiful pockets on pants. No harassing touches, leers, intrusions on personal space, hell no stares even. Nobody really LOOKS at you. (Though that's my white privilege as well, keep this in mind that I am seen as a white man by doing all this and "fitting in" with the dominant majority of power in this country.) Sadly enough, other white men listen to you first over women or anyone else. At least I can use that to help raise awareness among the other white men and to guide them into listening to the minorities once I've gotten their attention and directed them to the right spots where the minorities are talking about their experiences and their point of view and all.

Yet there's the constant paranoia of being seen by someone as a woman. Constant. Paranoia. All because I don't want to become their target by being revealed as to their perspective, "OMG One of those t#$%%ies! How dare they fool me?! Let's beat them up and show them what for!" ...Yeah. *shakes head* At least nowadays it's getting MUCH better. Yet I see am wary and jumpy as all heck around the older white men, or the aggressive-seeming bands of white men my age. Experience and hearing SO MANY horror stories upon horror stories from fellow minority members and stories in the news have led me to earmark those types as the most potentially dangerous to me. If they show acceptance and being okay with me being feminine and yet still being a guy though, automatically they get off the danger list for me.

So that's why I keep an eye out to how people are responding to me, looking at me, and the tenor of their expressions, body language, and potential stares. I'm hard of hearing, deaf when my cochlear implants are off, so I have to rely PURELY on the visual to gauge how potentially threatening someone is. As long as people's looks don't cross that "warning!" line of seeming aggressive in any way, I can relax and dismiss any looks I get. It's the aggressive-seeming long, hard, unwavering stares that get my back up and me looking for the immediate escape routes and heading to my friends and/or family to make a quick get-away OUT of here. I don't pretend to have any fighting skills. I just know enough to maybe bring someone down for long enough to run the HECK away.

Anyways this was just a long ramble of sharing some of my stories, knowledge, and experiences with presenting as a man and what you have to do to be read as another man. Well more of a heterosexual, white man at least which is the dominant powerbase here in this country. I have way more stuff to share if anyone's interested? :3 Especially of what I had to be taught about the women side of things, and how my experiences among women friends as a woman at one time, and women friends as a guy now, compare and contrast and completely differ from my experiences among my guy friends as a man now.

[Indigo]

Btw I want to drop off this awesome rap I found on youtube that deconstructs the patriarchy and the "Macho-Man Bro Culture" of the stereotypical heterosexual white man. It sounds less harsh than other rap, does not have any swear words at all really, and if you click on the CC button along the black bottom edge of the video border that's to the left of the little gear symbol, and widescreen symbol, then the captioning will let you know EXACTLY what he's saying as he's saying it. Speaking as a hard of hearing and deaf user who first came upon that when I didn't hear a thing and read along by captioning alone, it's utterly perfect and has no faults in the wording either. So something else to help! <3

And I love how he's a heterosexual white man who's also a clear metrosexual (aka a feminine straight dude) and has AMAZING long hair and tears down the macho-man stereotypes so well. Two thumbs up and 10 stars from this effeminate gay man in return!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t92EK...

[Sophie]

Phew! I have actually just binge read all the entries in this thread from beginning to the current end although I am not really living in a very suitable time zone... ;)

Thank you Indigo for sharing your story and to a lot of you for putting some new links on my 'to read' list.

I liked a statement from Bunny very much on how it would be nice to live in a society where everybody has a gender as individual as our personalities and this is accepted as such. This would also be a society that doesn't use the limiting dichotomic labels that Indigo described. (Having breasts -> woman; being introverted at times or just not liking a fight -> not behaving like a 'normal male' etc.)

However, this seems a very distant and futuristic vision to me considering that the difference of sexual orientation, gender and identity are still not common place. Also, as Bunny has mentioned, discrimination against certain types of gender or against sexual behaviors intersects heavily with other types of inequality. Being academically 'socialized' as a political scientists, my brain almost automatically shouts "it is all about power!" whenever reading about intersectionality. It is all about power in the way that we use language to construct meaning and thereby constrict our imagination and the realm of what is seen as relevant. It is about power in the way we have different positions from which to take part in the discourse about these things. Realising the fact that this applies to every aspect of our lifes, that meaning is never just there ready to be picked up, but always constructed, intersectionality as a concept seems more than logical to me. Be it gender, sex, economic status - while reality provides us with some material facts to deal with (there is no money in my wallet), in the end none of these concepts is just objectively there and not socially constructed. There have been lots of gender-related examples of this here. (The culturally prescribed definition of spreading your legs, changes in fashion etc.)

It really is a mess - as a cis-woman my personality is influenced when I wonder about being to loud and extrovert for a woman or too silent and introverted (at other occasions) for a feminist. Going back to a world where we all have a gender as individual as our personalities, what does that mean?
It realls is a mess as everything is interconnected and socially constructed - which means changeable in the long run, right? We might not see all the change we would like to see in our lifetime, but it surely is possible...

P.S.: The bathroom debate is not only silly, but I am amazed of how badly disguised these sexist and fearful arguments often are... I mean if it were about anybody beeing sexually aroused or 'peeking', what bathroom should lesbian ciswomen and gay cismen or bisexuals use? And how could you possibly 'track' them? Ask everbody about their current gender and sexuality whilst having them attached to a polygraph? This line of argument just leads nowhere and they know it...

[Bunny]

Sophie wrote: "Phew! I have actually just binge read all the entries in this thread from beginning to the current end although I am not really living in a very suitable time zone... ;)

Thank you Indigo for shar..."

Binge read is a great description. I'm very happy to have more thoughtful and courteous people participating here. Also I loved the description of your polysci brain yelling "Its all about power!" as you were reading. That really made me smile.

Indigo wrote: "Btw I want to drop off this awesome rap I found on youtube that deconstructs the patriarchy and the "Macho-Man Bro Culture" of the stereotypical heterosexual white man. It sounds less harsh than ot..."

Thanks for sharing that I really enjoyed it and wow I agree his hair is GORGEOUS!!

[Sophie]

That rap was amazing. I mean, even simply as a rap. And although he wants me to judge him based on his message and personality, I too have to agree: A.m.a.z.i.n.g. hair!

[Bunny]

Oh also Indigo, POCKETS!! What is the DEAL with women's clothes and pockets?? Honestly, are we supposed to have no stuff we need to carry around? Why do dresses with pockets cost twice as much as dresses with no pockets, and what are those useless weird little things they stick in the front of women's trousers that will barely hold a lipstick and a couple of coins? I neeeed pockets that will hold my phone and card case and money and a couple of pretty rocks I picked up and some string and a tissue and ...

[Indigo]

I don't really know on that detail with fashion. It was never really my interest despite my speech therapist trying to get me interested in fashion so that I "would have something in common to talk about with the other girls" despite the fact that I was firmly of the opinion (still am now) that I'd MUCH rather find someone who actually had a similar interest that I did and have deep conversations about it. May mean far less friends and no chance at the popularity but those things weren't important to me at all, even in Middle School, so I didn't care about any "lack" that others may have cared about in my life. :)

However, I did pick up some things about fashion over time since then by watching Project Runway (I find it way more interesting to watch actual designers figure problems out, get creative with their solutions, hear the judges' input about what does or doesn't work and why, and see the results of everything and how it all fits together well) and RuPaul's Drag Race. The latter is like Project Runway staffed entirely by effeminate men, who have to also put together the make-up, hair, and everything along WITH the clothing, and even put on performances with themselves as the subjects. Holy DAMN that is so demanding like I don't even know, and yet I love seeing them rise up to the challenge!

Yet... none of what I've seen ever explained WHY women's fashion don't have deep pockets. ...........Unnecessary bulges and doesn't work well with a sleek contour of the outfit and the curves? I only offer that barest guess because of how the judges had criticized someone for putting pockets on their designed outfit years ago on Project Runway, because it was bulky, lumpy, and disrupted the flow lines of the outfit. That's my only guess.

Basically they would be putting appearance over functionality to such an extent that everybody who has to deal with those kinds of clothing SUFFER. Which is why when I was able to shop in the boy's section, I quickly fell in deep love. AWESOME designs on the front of the shirts, more like what I actually love (animals and dragons and badass crosses and the like :D ) and nice baggy pants that aren't too tight (though I wish they were a bit more form fitting... like a happy medium so to say?) that had - bless every star - ACTUAL POCKETS! Whoop WHOOP. I can put my iPod, cellphone, wallet, extra batteries, and the like all into the three main pockets of my jeans with some space left over. XD And hide tampons and pads in them so deep that nobody has any idea that I have what are seen as "women's sanitary products" in my guy pockets. -w-

Another guess is that the creators of women's outfits think women only carry things in their purses and bags and have no need for pockets? The men do not have the purse option [but they do have backpacks and shoulder bags] so they just stuff things into their pockets. Though I understand their wanting to make themselves feel comfortable with using purses by calling them "man-purses," but seriously if I hear ANYONE using that phrase in my vicinity I have a strong urge to punch them. People absolutely should NOT try to "make things more acceptable by adding in a man- or -bro- into the word" and thus altering a perfectly damn good word to begin with. It just implies that the word is SO HORRIFICALLY GIRLY by default that *GASP* of COURSE the only way to make it any-what acceptable is to put a damn "MAN" into the word. .......Patriarchy much? =_=

Anyways, I'll stop there before I get into a full-blown rant and then go past my character limit for this post and end up saying some pretty nasty things in the process, eheheh. ;;

[Sophie]

I agree, women are supposed to always drag around a purse or bag. This makes sense, as we are also supposed (and I must confess in this regard I do neatly fit the cliché) to want to take a lot of stuff with us. We supposedly need tissues and maybe a senitizer, because we are more neat than men, deodorant or some make up because we care more about our appeareance, lip balm, a huge purse for money and cards that also looks stylish and is somehow colorful or a statement in another way, spare shoes if we are at an event were we are supposed to wear high heels, hair accessories, something to fix our clothes that are far less resilient than the men's because they have to clearly show our body shape, some snacks because (of course) we didn't eat enough during the last meal (not me), sanitary products, a pain killer for when the period hits hard, chewing gum because no 'real' woman has ever bad breath... You just can't fit all that stuff in your pockets. Even if you were wearing men's pants or MCHammer's balloon pants. I actually find that it is quite uncomfortable to schlepp around only half of these things in a woman's tote. It would be much easier to just use a rucksack, but then it could only be a tiny stylish one becuase the really useful ones are not feminine...

[Aglaea]

Sophie wrote: "I agree, women are supposed to always drag around a purse or bag. This makes sense, as we are also supposed (and I must confess in this regard I do neatly fit the cliché) to want to take a lot of s..."

This surprises me for some reason. I know many, myself included, who years ago have stopped listening to the incredibly annoying mosquito in my ear that is the you're-supposed-to. I seriously do not give a rat's ass about what the latest fad of fashion is telling me how I should exist the correct way. I hate consumerism, buying only to discard a year or two later, and - above all - having to look like everyone else lest I feel inferior. I don't feel inferior but I make my own timeless fad become a lasting thing rather than fad. It isn't courageous to refuse the fashion but the simple act of not wanting to change appearance constantly. I detest shopping for clothes and accessories, it is ridiculously expensive if one wants to have one great coat lasting for years to come (yes, hence timeless) rather than keep hunting for the latest new shiny whilst pouring money basically down the toilet. It was the easiest decision ever to hop off that nonsense wagon and simply be unique, be myself. I'd rather invest all that time and energy on what won't fade (my looks), but instead work on improving shortcomings in my character and personality. Plus the latter can be as expensive an investment as zero money. And I sleep better at night not supporting sweatshops either.

[Sophie]

Aglaea wrote: "This surprises me for some reason,"

I didn't really get what has surprised you, though. Was it that I feel there are certain expectations among a lot of people about what items women carry along compared to men?
Or was it about the fact that I 'confessed' to personally carrying around a lot of stuff? (In my case for example books and unreasonably heavy ringbook calendars?)
Or the fact that this issue is discussed at all?
Or a totally different point that I just completely missed? :)

[Em]

Adam wrote: "This going to be a very touchy subject, but I think it needs to be discussed.

Since we have gender roles and how they are applied falsely to categorically hold men or women into a specific set of ..."

I just posted here, and it seems to have disappeared? Forgive me if you see two similar posts in a row...

I think this is a really important question. I don't think it is fair to say that there is no such thing as trans. Many people identify as trans and would be hurt by that assertion.

However, I do believe we (feminists) are trying so hard to make a space for the trans community, that we are ommitting other valid options. I recently read an article that said children with gender dysphoria 'had to' transition. No they don't.

Some boys with gender dysphoria grow up to be happy feminine men. Some girls with gender dysphoria grow up to be happy masculine women.

When we limit people only to the most radical solution to a problem, we are being no more accepting or liberating than if we limit them to the most conservative.

[Bunny]

I'm glad to see more people participating in the discussion! Etta, I hope you won't be too bothered if I want to give this group of awesome commenters a little bit of a challenge and caution about something in your recent post.

You said that you read an article that said something about children with gender dysphoria needing to transition. Then you said that we as feminists are omitting other valid options and shouldn't be limiting people to only the most radical solutions.

I'm guessing that second part is really more like your reaction to the first part? Like, you read the article and your reaction was to think wow I hope that's not how everyone feels, wow I hope people aren't going to be forced into agreeing with that! Sharing your reaction is great, we learn more about each other by sharing our reactions to things.

The challenge and caution is: I want to support you in sharing your reaction and point of view and at the same time I want to avoid having the whole discussion go chasing off into discussion of what feminists should do about gender dysphoria, because feminists aren't actually all of one mind on that subject and even if they were feminists aren't actually in charge of what gender dysphoric people should do. The people in charge of that are gender dyphoric people and their families and doctors.

Share impressions, awesome! But where people start to say "feminists must" or "feminism shouldn't" lets be a bit careful about not getting caught up in an argument about that okay?

Also I'm laughing at Sophie's description of the impossibility of trying to fit the entire contents of her purse in to her pants pockets! Even if you were wearing men's pants or MCHammer's balloon pants. Ha!

[Aglaea]

Sophie wrote: "Aglaea wrote: "This surprises me for some reason,"

I didn't really get what has surprised you, though. Was it that I feel there are certain expectations among a lot of people about what items wome..."

I had to think about my reply for a while, because I wasn't able to put my finger on it at once. Now I'm closer.

The whole discussion on pockets and bags and stuff made me think "But that's not me at all! Nor is it my handicraft friends!" We knit, sew, crochet, and do other crafts, which all includes clothing and accessories. So if something doesn't suit us off the rack, we make it. The world of craft blogging is also very, very different from what lifestyle bloggers are pushing - and endless stream of new stuff to buy, acquire, own, have. Whereas the crafting world seems more geared towards filling a need when it arises. Also, from both avatar photos and commentary, I know many of those women don't care that much about doing make-up and other "womanly" things, but they/we are feminine in different ways than what you see in women's magazines.

There's also the other culture/sub-culture of minimalism and decluttering that doesn't favour buying stuff at all, but only buying when there's an actual need, and only then an object that will truly be loved and useful. People in this world talk about down-sizing and living with less, and it includes people of all genders.

Hope it's more clear now :)

[Aglaea]

Etta wrote: "However, I do believe we (feminists) are trying so hard to make a space for the trans community, that we are ommitting other valid options. I recently read an article that said children with gender dysphoria 'had to' transition. No they don't."

I'm interested in which options you feel are ommitted? If you present something, I'm pretty sure I will automatically say that I will include also that group of people, because my Polestar in feminist discussions is inclusion of exactly everyone, who feels like including others.
(Yes, I'm a bit restricted in that I'm not overly keen on those, who choose to exclude, because I don't seem to find acceptance of reasons to exclude in my heart.)