Constructions of Gender; Conformity and Non; Trans and Cis Experiences

[Bunny]

On a slightly different subject I am looking at pictures of a protest that is happening right now at the North Carolina state capitol building against the NC bathroom bill, and cheering wildly in my heart. There are people holding up signs that say "Flush Discrimination." Go NC protestors! Yay you!!!

[Kerry]

Bunny wrote: "On a slightly different subject I am looking at pictures of a protest that is happening right now at the North Carolina state capitol building against the NC bathroom bill, and cheering wildly in m..."

Yes!! The support from those that oppose the bill is getting louder and louder and it gives me hope.

[Bunny]

I actually know someone who is in that protest right now and she is a little bit afraid that she's going to get arrested and "outed" to her employer with unknown consequences. But she's still there and fighting and protesting for civil rights. Brave, wonderful people in the world.

[Kerry]

Indigo wrote: "Lol I never read the book but it just goes to show you how much gender norms really change even in a single generation, let alone multiple. Yet so many people are somehow convinced that the norms t..."

I really appreciate your sharing your experience and insight. I think it's exhausting sometimes to remain aware of my own personal reactions and responses to society's "ideals" and how I carry or present myself (like some of the examples mentioned like carrying a purse or in my case never wearing make-up). Your experience takes that level of exhaustion and multiplies it a million fold. I know in my gut what I feel is right in regards to basic humanity and compassion and understanding, etc. and reading personal experiences like yours solidifies my stance.

It's sure as hell hard to stay hopeful some days. :/

[Em]

Bunny wrote: "I'm glad to see more people participating in the discussion! Etta, I hope you won't be too bothered if I want to give this group of awesome commenters a little bit of a challenge and caution about ..."

Yes, it was a response to a specific article, but it was actually something that has been bugging me for a while. I get a lot of feminist articles in my Facebook feed, and I feel like I am being bombarded with "This little boy wants to be a girl and isn't that wonderful!!" Yes, it is absolutely a decision for the individual to make (with the assistance of parents and doctors), but the individual is going to be influenced by what they hear around them, and when the feminist media is constantly spouting the transition story, they might not realize they have other options. It is our duty to talk about things in a balanced manner. I think it is really important that the trans community is starting to be included in feminist discussion, but it is also important that we don't go overboard. Not every person with gender dysphoria has to transition.

We also need to continue to broaden the definition of woman to include masculine women and the definition of man to include feminine men. There is no right or wrong way to be a woman or man.

So, I guess, in answer to your question, it is not about what individual feminist should or shouldn't think, but what feminist media sources should discuss. Maybe I've just been coming across the wrong articles, but it seems a bit one-sided to me.

[Aglaea]

Etta wrote: "Yes, it was a response to a specific article, but it was actually something that has been bugging me for a while. I get a lot of feminist articles in my Facebook feed, and I feel like I am being bombarded with "This little boy wants to be a girl and isn't that wonderful!!" Yes, it is absolutely a decision for the individual to make (with the assistance of parents and doctors), but the individual is going to be influenced by what they hear around them, and when the feminist media is constantly spouting the transition story, they might not realize they have other options. It is our duty to talk about things in a balanced manner. I think it is really important that the trans community is starting to be included in feminist discussion, but it is also important that we don't go overboard. Not every person with gender dysphoria has to transition.

We also need to continue to broaden the definition of woman to include masculine women and the definition of man to include feminine men. There is no right or wrong way to be a woman or man.

So, I guess, in answer to your question, it is not about what individual feminist should or shouldn't think, but what feminist media sources should discuss. Maybe I've just been coming across the wrong articles, but it seems a bit one-sided to me."

I understand what it is that you're saying, but it's also making me feel like if we don't talk about exactly all the options at all times constantly in every single blog post we write or comment we write, then it must be that we are excluding and we wish to exclude. I mean, there is so much going on in the world that we can't possibly know of all the options out there, but of course we can write the disclaimer as post scriptum to avoid offending others. I wish people would ask, though, before jumping to conclusions and assuming active exclusion is happening. It's very simple, just a question, yet somehow someone who says something has to be the one remembering at all times the addendum.

Maybe I'm too cynical for this, but even as a feminist who is all in, I can't seriously recall every time to choose my words such that someone won't feel offended, but perhaps we all are supposed to change our speaking style completely. Yet I still can't drop the idea that some thing should be able to be read between lines, too, or maybe as extrapolation or something. Like isn't the spirit of a text enough? Or do people automatically assume that it is indeed their right to come to the conclusion that since someone forgets at times to add the disclaimer, they must be excluding? I can't jump onboard the "lack of inclusion is active exclusion" wagon, it's too exhausting to always assume the worst of others. Don't we find it in our hearts to "feel" someone's intention, give the benefit of doubt in such cases that might be questionable out of our own perspective?

[Bunny]

Thanks everyone for keeping it polite while I wasn't around, you rock!

Etta wrote: "Maybe I've just been coming across the wrong articles but it seems a bit one sided to me..."

I was pondering this and I wonder also if part of what seems troubling to you is the underlying assumption that being trans always requires an intervention? Like its a problem that always has to have a solution instead of just another way of being? I was thinking about the autism discussion and how some people on the autism spectrum feel that they are functioning fine, they just aren't neurotypical. And others feel differently, there's a range. So in this same way being trans isn't a single problem with a single solution and may not be a problem at all for some, just an alternate identity. But that it should be up to the people concerned.

I wonder if part of what is bothering you is that maybe in seeking to be supportive some of the writers you've read have slid right past supportive into prescriptive. Possible?

I will say there are definitely articles out there that take other points of view too. But it can for sure get a little filter bubble-ish out there, especially on Facebook so I can see how those other points of view might not be coming into your stream.

Nicki wrote: "I realised that because my gender identity matches my sex assigned at birth, I can woman any way I want to without consequences, but my transgender friends can't. They should be able to, but they can't. People will still try to put me in boxes, but they're not going to cease viewing me as a woman if I step outside of them. For a transgender person, the possible consequences range from being misgendered to physical endangerment if they aren't outwardly exhibiting their gender in a way that appeases anyone around them...So it isn't that transgender people are upholding the gender binary at all. It's more that as a society, we're foisting the gender binary off on them to make their existence more comfortable for the transphobic.."

I liked the insight you shared there Nikki and also how you shared that it was a process for you to come to understand that. Great post, I think. Especially for someone whose been awake for 30 hours wow!

[Kerry]

Bunny wrote: "I wonder if part of what is bothering you is that maybe in seeking to be supportive some of the writers you've read have slid right past supportive into prescriptive."

This is a thought I'd had as well but also for me, (not having read the article) Etta wrote the article said something like: "This little boy wants to be a girl and isn't that wonderful!!" which has a tone that can come off as the subject being shifted from, in this case transgender, to how accepting the author is of them. While that may not be the intent, it's a tricky thing to communicate around. I know for me personally if I pick up on a tone of superiority (ex. making it about them) from the author vs sincerity, it's a turn off.

[Marina]

As for active inclusion/passive inclusion... well, if someone says their university, shop or whatever welcomes disabled people but doesn't actually make the building wheelchair-accessible, are disabled people assuming the worst? is the spirit enough?
the way i see it, it's not about assuming or "choosing" to be offended, but about actually being/feeling left out. Are you familiar with the feeling?

Do you know that many Russian women actually think European ones are lazy and don't look after themselves, since it's so common to just wear whatever is comfortable? Obviously I disagree with them, and I love not feeling judged for what I wear in Finland, but your reality is not the same as many other cis women's.

[Aglaea]

Marina wrote: "As for active inclusion/passive inclusion... well, if someone says their university, shop or whatever welcomes disabled people but doesn't actually make the building wheelchair-accessible, are disa..."

If that was intended for me, you are taking it completely out of context. Etta wrote about articles she sees in her Facebook feed and I replied within the context of blogging about the topics or writing replies on blog posts or like in this forum.

[Marina]

Well you weren't only referring to this specific topic i think, but the general pressure for feminism to be more inclusive?
The issue is not that "if we don't talk about exactly all the options at all times constantly in every single blog post we write or comment we write, then it must be that ... we wish to exclude". But if we're excluding then we're excluding, lol. I'm sure many feminists don't want to exclude trans/non-binary people or POC. That's just what happens. Fortunately, often it's easy to just use words like some, most, often, to acknowledge that there are different situations too.

Sorry if I'm derailing the discussion.

[Aglaea]

Marina wrote: "Well you weren't only referring to this specific topic i think, but the general pressure for feminism to be more inclusive?
The issue is not that "if we don't talk about exactly all the options at..."

Not at all. I was only referring to situations when discussions are held. For the sake of clarity, sometimes it increases readability not to add the whole disclaimer to a comment, but this does not mean we exclude as a whole.

Not practical examples such as the wheelchair instance. Obviously.

Seriously, would you stop twisting the intention of my posts and adding words into my mouth that never were there.

[Bunny]

I don't think you are derailing Marina. At least as far as I'm concerned. I do feel a bit like some of these disputes rise out of too many related but different things all getting thrown into the same "bucket" as it were, and talked of as if they were all the same when they aren't. I think it would probably be helpful to untangle the concepts somewhat. I keep seeing people conflating inclusion and intersectionality for example. Its very hard to understand each other if we aren't meaning the same thing by the words we use, you know?

Going back to this specific topic I do think that a lot of disputes around gender are about how the different ways people define and experience gender. If someone sees it as a binary for example its very hard to understand what people who don't see it as a binary are talking about and vice versa. There's a basic shift in understanding that has to happen before we can even start to make sense to each other.

Same way with the concepts of intersectionality and inclusion and intent and explicit and implicit bias. If we aren't on the same page about what those things mean we do end up talking at cross purposes a whole lot. Even if everyone means well.

[Bunny]

I also think that Sophie raised a good point over in the Intersectionality What is It thread, that its very hard to avoid taking this stuff personally. I mean really we are talking about identity here, and identity is very personal. So its a challenge to maintain balance in conversations about something that is so powerful and central. Lots of deep breaths and occasional walks around the block :-)

[Indigo]

Well for those who worry that "all trans children might be pressured to do all the interventions and surgery even if they may not end up as trans!!" you can rest easy. I think some people look only at the extreme procedures like the surgery and worry that all the trans group must feel pushed towards doing that. Actually, it's the dang opposite.

The doctors, therapists, and medical professionals WILL NOT allow you to get the hormone medication, let alone do surgery at all, unless you hare convinced them that it is important to you and that you have the body dysphoria where this would be the thing to help you to feel less disconnected, upset, and even driven to suicide by the body-mind mismatch. Otherwise, ha. Good luck.

At least they're a lot more open these days to those who want to just take the hormone and do nothing else. There's quite a few who do, and many more who can afford only the hormone but cannot afford the surgery and must wait until they can afford the surgery at all. And even with the surgery, people strongly differ in how much or to what extent they pursue it.

I'll let you in on a little secret. Most transmen only get breast surgery. Not to say that there aren't people who want to get genital surgery (*points to self*) or who have gotten it. Of course there are! But speaking as a transmen who has talked with many other transmen in their process and what they chose to do or not with their bodies, the breasts are the biggest concern usually and the things downstairs are usually the least. It's part of why it took me so long to realize that I'm a transman is because I didn't have the same hatred or upset or extreme discomfort with my breasts like they way they do. Rather, I have the more intense wish to change things downstairs and as soon as the surgery is up to my exacting standards I'm gonna be one of those eagerly waiting in line. Everybody feels their body differently and has issues with different parts of their body. Body dysphoria can manifest in many ways.

I'm not as well connected in the transwomen group, due to approaching this from almost the opposite side so to speak, lol. However, I see that they usually are extremely happy to have the breasts grow from using the estrogen (combined always with the testosterone inhibitor at least until they perhaps decide to remove the testes below, because testosterone is a STRONG hormone and can easily overwhelm the estrogen otherwise) and may not always pursue the bottom surgery, or most often do not have the money or funds to do so.

But a great percentage of transgender people just take the hormones and nothing else, with some taking it for a while to experience it and then stopping, and many (due to insufficient funds, doctors stopping them, or just really don't feel that much body dysphoria to want to do this) just dress and appear in the gender that they identify as and don't do anything else with it. Genderfluid and genderqueer people are often in the last group. I've talked to a great many of them too. :)

So believe me it's not as bad as you're probably imagining, with great long lines of gender differing children funneled into hormone and surgery with no pause to consider it. Lol. No it's the exact opposite. The doctors and therapists want to MAKE SURE you're not going to regret this and make you wait 6 months after first talking to your therapist before you're able to discuss the opportunity with your doctor about hormone therapy. You have to present and live as the gender you identify as for 6 months to a year as well before they start to consider you as a potential candidate for hormone therapy. And there is absolutely NO talk of surgery unless the person truly and genuinely wants it, consistently has wanted it, AND has been on the hormone therapy for at least 6 months. All told, the whole path can take at minimum (at least in my state and many other states in the USA) a year and a half and that's for someone who clearly and strongly feels this is the right path for them and demonstrated it consistently too. Not to mention the other paths of changing your name along with your appearance and sometimes it's just enough for people to just go with that. :) Not me or a lot of the transgender people lol but well there you have it.

We're transgender because we feel MORE than just a gender dysphoria. We often (but not always) have body dysphoria too. And the gender dysphoria is strong enough, long enough, and consistent enough for us to want to pursue this long-term changes to our body. However, like I said above, the paths we take and the degree to which we pursue one change over another, both, or neither at all, depends solely on us as individuals, our unique situation, almost always our financial situation too. Those surgeries are EXPENSIVE. Thousands of dollars. For insurance to cover even enough of it, you'd better jump through the right hoops. What if you don't have insurance? Many people turn to Kickstarter and things like that to help crowd-source the money. You better believe this is important to them when they do this.

It's not just a matter of "I didn't play with the toys I wanted to while growing up!" or "I behave and act differently than others of my assigned gender while growing up!" That is part of it yes, but it's a very deep part of us that's saying "This feels so WRONG for me!" and then when we're treated more akin to how our gender identity has shaped itself, "OH YAY! FINALLY! I'm seen as ME. :D " and the resulting gender euphoria is quite great and usually helps confirm that we're on the right path for us.

There's a clear difference between being a masculine women, and being a man (even if he's in an assigned female body). People treat each one very differently, and if being called "sir" instead of "madam," being accepted as "one of the guys," seen and reacted to like you're just a man by all (very different looks and reactions you get as a man vs. as a woman but that's for another post), and more all give you that strong happy glow inside, then you're most likely identifying closer to being a man. If being treated as all that makes you feel sick, angry, uneasy, or wanting to back up and say "woah you got it all wrong here!" then most likely you identify closer to being a woman. Not just what you do vs. what you don't do, a huge part of it is how you're treated too and how that makes you feel.

So, I'll stop the rambling here but I hope it helps somewhat? It's just my personal experienced combined with what I've seen happen most of the time, what I've had to get through to even approach being able to start testosterone [not yet >.>;; dammit] and what other people have similarly reported of the hoops to jump through and their personal wants, desires, hopes and wishes for the process and how far if any they choose to go and where they chose to stop and why. So it ain't as straightforward as you seem to have thought there some of you. Believe me, there's already a very balanced discussion going on but because its between each of us transgenders and our doctors and therapists behind closed doors, I can understand why most cisgender people think that all we get is what's on the media and that of course is very skewed since they always want DRAMA. But no, we freely talk with each other and discuss things, pass on warnings, share experiences and sensations of the different kinds of dysphoria (gender, social, body, and mental), and what helped each person to get through that and realizing it's extremely personal to each person and there's tons of options out there. Because we're not having this discussion with anyone other than another transgender person or someone who is questioning whether they might be trans, I can understand perfectly why the cisgenders are not aware that this is going on with as much passion, free information, candid discussions and debates, and easy sharing of all the options there are as you'd find between a group of trans people all talking it out together.

Hell, most of the times we're more aware of the options and possibilities, what we have to do to go through the hoops, and how far we wanna go, how we feel, what that means for us, etc. than our own primary care doctors! We frequently educate the doctors about us, and look for the LGBT+ specialists to discuss the options further and get more information from them as well as from others sharing their experiences on the web. Since we have to get a gender therapist to sign off on us using a hormone therapy in the first place, we already have to search and hunt down someone who's knowledgeable in this field and discuss with them deeply and very seriously about all of this. As more medical professionals get educated and learn about this, the amount of knowledgeable doctors and therapists are on the rise and means there's less of a fight to get an appointment with the few good ones as there used to be. Thank the heavens for that!

Hope you don't mind my long comment. :3

[Bunny]

Indigo wrote: "We frequently educate the doctors about us, and look for the LGBT+ specialists to discuss the options further and get more information from them as well as from others sharing their experiences on the web. Since we have to get a gender therapist to sign off on us using a hormone therapy in the first place, we already have to search and hunt down someone who's knowledgeable in this field and discuss with them deeply and very seriously about all of this. As more medical professionals get educated and learn about this, the amount of knowledgeable doctors and therapists are on the rise and means there's less of a fight to get an appointment with the few good ones as there used to be. Thank the heavens for that!..."

Thanks again Indigo for bringing your perspective to the discussion, who is better informed after all than those who are living it?! That's my perception too, that its really pretty much the opposite of people being pressured to identify as trans, rather trans people fighting hard, and often against very considerable resistance and even some danger, to live in a way that feels authentic to them.

[Indigo]

Yeah, exactly there Bunny. Heck, for those who are young and haven't hit puberty yet, I know they won't actually do anything for the children aside from letting them experiment with gender and be called the way they want to be called and dress and appear the way they want to.

It's when they're getting close to puberty that they'd be (hopefully, if the child knew about this and was vocal about it since childhood and if the doctors the family uses also knows of this, that is) given the chance to use puberty blockers. All these do is just keep their bodies in a state of not developing those secondary sexual characteristics that they would've due to their assigned sex (breasts, bigger hips, curves, periods for girls in general; adam's apple, facial hair, dropped testes, deeper voice for boys in general).

They usually do this for a couple years at most, let the child take the time to decide and make up their minds firmly what direction they wish to take with their body, make SURE they do want to have the hormone therapy, and have them commit to this path. If the child decides, nope, they're actually happy being cisgender then the puberty blockers will be stopped and they will continue on the regular puberty they would've had anyways. Nothing really affects them long term. Since everybody goes through puberty at different times and stages, then they'd just go through it a tad bit later than the others. It's not the end of the world and doesn't make a difference on the full effects of their natural puberty at the end of adolescence.

However, if they choose to go with transition, then they'll be taken off the puberty blockers and then put on the appropriate hormones for their gender and then go through the puberty pretty much like how others of their gender would. The transmen would go through it like teenage boys would, the transwomen like teenage girls. They actually have the least amount of things to change in their bodies because the effects of the hormones are quite strong. If they should decide on a much later date that they don't like certain features that they got from that puberty with transition hormones, then they can just do what the rest of us late-blooming transgender folk do - get the appropriate hormones and/or surgery at that date. Though to be honest, all they'd really have to do (provided they haven't removed the testes or ovaries at that stage) is just stop that hormone therapy and a lot of the effects WILL reverse themselves.

The things that reverse themselves whenever you stop taking testosterone are: periods start again, can get pregnant again (usually), get curves, breast tissue again, less defined muscles, fat patterns move away from the belly and back to the chest, hips, and thighs, more fat around the face so softer and rounder faces, lowering of sex drive, thinner and smoother skin.

The things that don't reverse themselves when you stop taking testosterone are: patterns of hair growth (if you started growing a beard then you'd have to get laser hair removal just like the transwomen to fully remove that, period), patterns of hair loss (if you experienced male pattern baldness during that time then whatever hair was lost will stay lost, but the progression of MPB would stop), the voice changes (can retrain your voice just like the transwomen do to "regain" a higher register), and the longer, thicker, and a bit more distended clitoris (never more than an inch long or so, like a micro-penis really).

The things that reverse when you stop using a testosterone-blocker and let your natural testosterone production continue again (also thereby stop taking estrogen too): fat moves from chest, thighs, hips, and butt back to the belly, less fat on the face so more defined, more defined muscles, body hair growth would accelerate back to that of a guy's, thicker and somewhat rougher skin, and increased sex drive. Also if there's MPB that had been stopped by taking the estrogen, it will resume again once the testosterone comes back to natural levels.

I am not as sure about what does not reverse once testosterone blockers are removed and the estrogen stopped. The hormone testosterone is quite a powerful one, though everyone has it to varying amounts in their bodies (yes even ciswomen!) Though what I DO know for the transmen is that if you take too much testosterone your body actually metabolizes that into more estrogen... and accidentally uses the extra estrogen to overwhelm what you were doing before with the testosterone. :/ Which is why having a doctor monitor your dosages is so vitally important so you're not taking too MUCH and thus erasing what gains you've gotten (seems counter-intuitive much?), or too LITTLE and thus not getting any changes at all.

Anyways I can go on and on about this but these are the basics. And as for the pregnancy bit, surprisingly I've met a lot of transmen who have accidentally gotten pregnant even when on testosterone and not having periods, and those who took it for 7 + years and when they stopped to purposefully bear a child, they often could even when they were on that for a while. It's generally a good idea that as soon as you know you're pregnant, to stop testosterone out of a concern for too-high levels being in the mother's bloodstream and potentially having side-effects on the developing embryo. (Why yes I've researched this.)

I hope you find this interesting. :3 It's just one bit of the many things we talk about amongst each other and sharing experiences and stories and information that we've found out online, through doctor studies, or even by accident in our own life experiences. Trust me, we KNOW this stuff. Because we have to LIVE it. xD

(Last aside, I wish I had realized I was trans when I was a child and gotten a puberty blocker. Less to change with surgery compared to what I have to do now. :/ Oh well.)

[Indigo]

This is a brilliant read. I want others to read it. :) Basically it boils down to "why is the burden of proof always placed upon the questioning transgender's shoulder to prove that they are trans and not cisgender? Why don't the cisgenders have an equal burden of proof to prove that they are cisgender? Why is it so accepted that someone is cis until proven trans, and not just someone weighing and questioning both choices to see whether cisgender or transgender fit your own personal experiences the best?"

http://freethoughtblogs.com/nataliere...

Some quotes from the text that are particularly poignant:

Cis people may wonder about being the opposite sex, but they don’t obsessively dream of it. Cis people don’t constantly go over the question of transition, again and again, throughout their lives. Cis people don’t find themselves in this kind of crisis. Cis people don’t secretly spend every birthday wish on wanting to wake up magically transformed into the “opposite” sex, nor do they spend years developing increasingly precise variations of how they’d like this wish to be fulfilled. Cis people don’t spend all-nighters on the internet secretly researching transition, and secretly looking at who transitioned at what age, how much money they had, how much their features resemble their own, and try to figure out what their own results would be. Cis people don’t get enormously excited when really really terrible movies that just happen to include gender-bending themes, like “Switch” or “Dr. Jekyl And Mrs. Hyde”, randomly pop up on late night TV, and stay up just to watch them. Etc.

Basically, there are some actions and behaviors and even the fact OF carefully considering and analyzing this to bits can be used as "proof" that you are transgender since most cisgender people would not ever do this in their lives. They have no reason to! Nobody ever requires THEM to prove that they are cisgender! Only the transgender are required to prove that they are so, and only if the proof is accepted can they finally transition and get the relief they need.

Does that seem fair to you, if you really take a moment to think about it?

This treatment of cisgenderism as so thoroughly unmarked, so deeply embedded as the assumed default, the privileged “normal”, that is conceptually rendered the null hypothesis, the case that must only be disproven and never, ever is itself held as something that needs to be questioned, proven, something that one ought be “sure of”, that it ends up rendering cisnormativity a force so powerfully ingrained in our culture that it’s almost wholly inextricable. It fuels the attitudes that are taken towards deception and disclosure (“why didn’t you TELL ME you’re trans?” “Why didn’t you ask?” “Why would I ask?“), towards “passability” (“but you don’t look trans!”), towards our representation (Why are only explicitly trans characters ever considered trans characters? Is there anything really stopping us from imagining Princess Peach, Aloe & Lotus, Han Solo or Appolonia as transsexual?) our sexuality, our political and social and interpersonal responsibilities… so much hinges on the idea that unless you’re proven to be trans, you’re cis, and that’s that.

Basically what I said above, only quite elegantly. It also delves deeper into how some of the things people say in response to finding out someone they know is transgender, show the fact that cisgenderism is the dominant cultural narrative and generally assumed beyond a doubt.

Anyways I thought y'all might appreciate that read too! It definitely fits this thread I think. :)

[Bunny]

Definitely fits the thread and a very interesting and persuasive read. I was thinking the other day about how when I was a kid I felt like ..; I will try to explain... I felt like you sort of got told how to be yourself, like okay you are a girl, this is what a girl does, this is what a girl is supposed to look like, this is how a girl is supposed to sit (knees together), and stand (one foot slightly behind the other), and walk and the shape your face is supposed to be (oval), and so on. You are from this place, this is how people from this place behave, this is how people from this class behave...

It was like a job assignment. If you could do it then you were a success and if you couldn't then you needed to work harder. But over the decades, with feminism and other social justice movements working away its become much more about being who you feel like inside, instead of conforming to the "right" way to do whatever you got assigned, you know?

[Kerry]

Thank you for sharing that article. The particular section that begins with "It makes sense to approach issues carefully, and remember to hesitate, doubt and question." struck me (though not entirely related) in that I was thinking through this just the other day while reading an article about Target. I mistakenly braved the comments section and of course it was full of horrific narrow-mindedness, spouting things like "stop being confused and accept you're a man." It turned my thoughts to WHY dear commenter are YOU not opening your mind enough to consider that YOU are all about questioning the transperson without ONCE questioning why it is that YOU can't accept it.

We're all human beings trying to journey down our own paths and everyone's path is equally valid. It's hard enough to stay focused in the direction of what feels like our own personal truth and some things just aren't up for debate.

As Bunny said, I agree there's been progress. I see it in the compassion and more innate sort of acceptance that my kids and my parents express and it does give me hope but we have a ways to go and that is so daunting some days.

[Bunny]

Kerry wrote: "I see it in the compassion and more innate sort of acceptance that my kids and my parents express and it does give me hope but we have a ways to go and that is so daunting some days. . ..."

I agree there are days that I feel very daunted.

[Indigo]

Here's another link to share. It actually leads to a post that has a lot of other links which are all good reading from what I see from skimming it. :)

http://crossdreamers.tumblr.com/post/...

I'm not sure how many of you are aware of the pseudo-science of "autogynephilia" and how that is used to tear down and invalidate the transgender experience and transgender people again and again. The post I linked to has a lot of good rebuttals against that unfortunately popular line of thought.

I figured it worked wonderfully for this thread as well. :) I'm more staying here than in the other threads lol, because I feel a lot of good support here and I like this place and the people (y'all!) who comment here. :3 <3

[Indigo]

I had the same feeling you did Bunny about being told to do this, stand like this, sit like that, behave this way, and do these things. I remember being very confused and asking "why" a lot of times. It didn't make too much sense to me.

Legs in when wearing a skirt. Can't ever show your chest to anyone once you get breasts (unless you are in a bedroom with the blinds closed or in the bathroom with the door closed). Like somehow it's totally shameful. Walk with more a sway to the hips [my friends and my mom made it a game of like walking down the fashion runway for us to learn how to walk the girly way when I was 13 to 14 years old]. Don't wrap your lips around a banana, popsicle, hotdog, corndog, or other things shaped like that and look like you're sucking it. Everybody will misinterpret it. Don't stroke the grain of the wood of a nice staff or wand when someone is around to see it. They will immediately think you're meaning something sexual when you're just liking the feel of the smooth, polished grains and subtle bumps along the smoothness and are using the touch to help ground you again in your body. Learn something about fashion so you can keep up with the other girls and have something to talk to them about, even if you don't like fashion and think its stupid to care about something that always keeps changing for no real good reason. Don't have facial hair or be proud of it. That makes you like a guy when you're a girl. Wearing a magic cloak is too weird, you're gonna be bullied regardless of the fact that I told you that you can be whoever you wanna be and what you wanna be and do is dress up like a sorcerer to go to high school. The fact that you've been bullied before and know how to handle it now, that you really care nothing about the opinions of those in your high school, and that you have the advantage of hard of hearing to help you not hear any gossip or comments they may make, and you never wanted to be popular anyways because its way too much work, none of those matter. You have to fit in, that's that.

... ;-; I can go on and on. I'm sure you all can to! At least here in this thread we can commiserate over this. I hope that talking it over here can help remind ourselves when we have kids (or are talking and relating with our kids) to hopefully not perpetuate such stuff to them because we're so aware of the effect it had on us to grow up with all that.

I do agree with you Kerry, more than you can ever know, on this line: "We're all human beings trying to journey down our own paths and everyone's path is equally valid. It's hard enough to stay focused in the direction of what feels like our own personal truth and some things just aren't up for debate."

That's something that has come up again and again in my life while growing up, and come with even more force and frequency now a days. What is my personal truth? What is what society keeps telling me to do? How much should I veer one way or the other. When is it safest to go along with what society says, even when it makes me so sick in my stomach and have a pain within me to the point that it's like I'm stabbing myself in the heart to resist my natural truth and natural way of acting and being me.

This is partly why I say society has a lot of influence, impact, and power over people. You start getting conditioned early. Yet, we all have a way of acting that is more natural for us than society would LIKE us to think. I almost wonder if that is genetic or could possibly be part of the soul that science is now starting to find out more about. I like to think its the latter lol.

It certainly would explain why some people can be so radically different from those that they share the greatest genes with, and were brought up in the same environment with as well. So that's both genetics AND social conditioning that are saying they should've turned out like their family when they didn't. At all. What's left over? Potentially the soul, or spirit. But that's just my rational there and why I think it's quite feasible and may actually be the truth that's hiding there.

Anyways, I'd love to hear your thoughts about this! :)

[Bunny]

Indigo wrote: "I'm more staying here than in the other threads lol, because I feel a lot of good support here and I like this place and the people (y'all!) who comment here. :3 <3 ..."

Me too. I think I'm going to stick to this thread and a couple of others for the time being. I've got a sort of heavy schedule at work right now and I'm not quite as resilient or patient when I'm very tired, it really drags me down when people are mean. So I think I'll hang with you over heah ;-)

[Indigo]

Sounds good on hanging out over on this thread. :) I feel the same way with wanting to limit potentially aggravating times and moments especially when I'm even more sick or tired than usual. :)

[Henriette]

When it comes to seeing hope in the younger generations, that seems to be on its way in Denmark. I read some wonderfull comments from a socioligist reacently. The starting point was fashion and the movement towards a more gender neutral fashion (that's Big here at the moment, as is the use of models of the opposite sex on the runway or in fashion spreads), but she commented on our current teenagegeneration over all.
She said that generally they can't and won't identify with very limited gender options. A Big part of danish teens and start twenties don't identify as solely heterosexuals. They don't identify as bi- or homosexuals either, they just see sexuality as a fluid and changing aspect. They are also surprisingly open to genderfluidity.
Of course there are a lot who doesn't feel that way (I have tought many guys (I worked at a school where the students were 99% boys) who thought gay men (completely stereotypically they didn't feel the same about gay women - were grosse and transpersons were worse - we spend a lot of time discussing that!), but it seems that many of our young people are pretty open minded. That makes me very happy!

[Sara]

Indigo wrote: "I had the same feeling you did Bunny about being told to do this, stand like this, sit like that, behave this way, and do these things. I remember being very confused and asking "why" a lot of time..."

What you and Bunny have said reminded me of a passage I just read in Chimamanda Ngozi Adichie's essay "We Should All Be Feminists." She brings up the problems of expecting things of a specific gender, stating " We teach girls shame. Close your legs. Cover yourself. We make them feel as though by being born female, they are already guilty of something. And so girls grow up to be women who cannot say they have desire." (p. 33).

There are so many things that we are taught that is grounded in gender, but often times, like what Adichie is saying, girls are censored even more in this case, because the blame already lies with that gender. It's frustrating that much of our society, throughout the world, is hinged on gender as a way of saying, "This is how we do things," when really we would be much happier, much better, if we treated people, everyone, with respect and as human beings. We need to look at people and recognize their soul, and speak to that, rather than tying things up in physical "norms" that would otherwise hinder us.

[Indigo]

I wholeheartedly agree with what Chimamanda said there about how girls are taught to be ashamed of themselves and their bodies. One could almost trace that through history through the Christian religion, and then further back to Judaism and Islam. The whole myth of the snake seducing Eve in the garden of Eden into committing the "original sin" by having her convince Adam to eat the forbidden fruit... yeah. Also, Eve was made from the rib bone of Adam. Wonderful. Not. x.- In any case, those were just some things that seemed very weird to me when I heard about those bits of religious myth and legend. No offense to anyone who practices that, but I can see how that would ripple out into treating women as "less" somehow. As needing to be subservient to the man, because the original woman was made from a part of a man's body. Also, the shame is one of the ripples out from the first woman doing the original sin, because "if it weren't for her being seduced by the snake, then we'd all still be in the Garden of Eden living a happy life right now," sort of thinking. I know most do not think this, but I will not be surprised if quite a few have used those stories as justifications for how they view women's place in the societal hierarchy. Sort of a self-justification thing.

Then again. To go off from religion, one sees a similar sort of shaming in other cultures and times where there weren't the trinity of monotheism (Christianity, Islam, Judaism) or their influence even at that time. Historically, the Chinese and Japanese women were quite repressed especially in the upper and wealthier parts where the women were not needed to actively work the farm alongside her family. Vietnam and Korea have a bit of a different history.

And yet if you look at some of the old cultures in the past, like most of the tribes of north and south Americas, a great deal of the African tribes too, and a lot of the island nations in the Pacific, they have/had a lot more gender equality and empowered women who didn't face the amount of shame that we have perpetuated in the Western Culture. Quite interesting that. (Unfortunately, that changed and was utterly destroyed in many places by the arrival of the white invaders... *sighs and shakes head*)

Anyways I could go on and on but I'll stop it here. :) I do thoroughly agree with Sara that I wish we'd have more of a gender equal (and over-all equal) society by just treating every damn person by their soul and personality, not by their bodies and assigned sexes. :( I won't even start on the crimes of maltreatment for our fellow cousins - all the animal and plant species that live on this beautiful planet of ours. I think we need to master treating other members of this species with that respect first before we can really hope for a great and lasting change in our treatment of the rest of our animal and plant family. :( I see the same struggles in both sides and stemming from the same causes. Do you?

[Bunny]

Chimamanda is great. I am old enough to know that eventually everyone is a little bit disappointing somehow, there's no hero that doesn't have a bit of clay in their feet someplace. I haven't found her clay yet though and I am not really looking forward to the day that I do! ;-)

I was thinking about how much of what I was told about how to act as a girl was framed in terms of what boys and men would think of me. "Boys don't like girls who are smarter than they are." "Boys don't make passes at girls who wear glasses." "Don't wear that it will give the boys ideas," and beyond that to trying to win the approval of male teachers and managers and mentors and bosses and seems like there's always another guy whose approval will make your life easier, or safer, or better.

Chimamanda talks about this too, about how girls are made responsible for what boys do and think. I think that for a very long time women have been defined and pushed to define themselves not on their own terms, but in terms of how they relate to men. For me this is one of the central things about being a feminist, struggling to define myself on my own terms, in relation to what I want for myself in the face of a lot of cultural messages that push me to be outer rather than inner directed.

[Indigo]

I think this article is utterly perfect for this thread. :) I hope everybody gives it a good look! <3

https://www.buzzfeed.com/skarlan/13-r...

As a transman I would kill for having my face be naturally as masculine as hers is! <3 She's a smashingly handsome and beautiful androgynous fashion model who also worked many stereotypically "manly" jobs over the years as well. :) I loved her commentary from her perspective as someone who identified as a woman growing up and as agender now who doesn't care whether you refer to her as "her" or as "him." :) Her confidence makes her glow in my eyes! <3

So yes, there is hope. :D And reasons to hope and to become inspired! <3

[Amy]

I originally posted this in another thread, but I wanted to make sure this idea reached as many people as possible!

I'm proposing a letter campaign to the American Family Association with the goal being to have them stop their trans-phobic, invasive protests of Target by having cis men entering female bathrooms to prove a misguided point.

What the AFA doesn't understand is that there have been zero reported cases of a trans individual harming anyone in a public restroom. However, the likelihood of a trans person or a cis woman being assaulted in a public restroom by a cis man is terrifyingly high. That's why women tend to go to the bathroom in packs! There's safety in numbers.

The AFA believes they are protecting women by sending cis men into their personal spaces, when the reality is, cis men are the very people women need protecting from!

Currently, the bathroom choices for a transgendered person are to be beat up or raped in one, or arrested in the other. Target is trying to end that in their stores and be inclusive, but the backwards AFA is letting their ignorance put everyone in danger. Women and transgender individuals deserve peace of mind when using a public facility.

Here is an article summarizing the events: http://leadercall.com/2016/05/anti-lg...

Here is the homepage of the American Family Association:
http://www.afa.net/

Here is where you may send your letters:
American Family Association
P O Drawer 2440
Tupelo, Mississippi 38803

I hope the AFA will be receiving more than just my letter this month! Thank you all for reading!

[Bunny]

I think the AFA understands just fine. They know what they are doing and are doing it on purpose.

Personally I would suggest putting energy into writing letters of support to Target and/or to the attorneys general and governors who have opposed "bathroom bills" in their states.

[Bunny]

Or the Southern Poverty Law Center, which has just succeeded in getting one of the bathroom laws rescinded in Alabama.

http://www.thenewcivilrightsmovement....

[Indigo]

Just wanted to stop by and drop off some good links that when I read them, I immediately thought of this thread. :)

This is about what you can do and say, as a ciswoman, to be more inclusive of transwomen in feminism. Slight warning about the laying it all like it is from a transwoman's perspective in this extremely dangerous and life-threatening society filled with transmisogynism like you won't believe. This is partly why I get so furious at any erasure of transwomen, especially transwomen of color, and want to try to bring awareness to what they have to go through whenever I can. I love my trans family, and as a transman I have more privilege than my trans sisters do. I seek to use that privilege to help my trans sisters up to an equal footing with me and further on with the rest of society.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/05/f...

Interesting thoughts about how a "modern" or progressive, educated women can be villianized in the media a lot of times that I hadn't really been aware of. Seems to have popped up a lot in some Indian films so I thought it was a good share here!
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/08/p...

As a transmen, and you as ciswomen, I'm sure we can all agree that cismen have not had to really think about these issues and that is part of what they benefit from in their privilege. Hopefully more will continue educating themselves on that privilege and calling others out on that BS too and thus helping us who are not cismen as well.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2015/01/1...

I know that with any future children I will definitely be talking these things over with them, regardless of their gender. I hope more parents will share and do this with their own children, and sons in particular since we've done so much with what girls shouldn't do, but barely anything in comparison for what boys shouldn't do and we're still nowhere near stopping rape culture. We need to address the men and sons and boys and make them aware of how they're complicit in this and how their silence and inaction is driving rape culture onwards.
http://everydayfeminism.com/2014/08/t...

Hope you like the reads!

[Indigo]

I second the writing letters of support to the organizations that are doing well, such as Target. (Damn am I happy to shop at Target now. :D Whoop whoop!) I do not like what AFA is doing since it completely goes against what the transpeople are trying to express and win their rights of when the AFA send disguised cismen into the women's bathrooms. Just like what you said there Amy, I have exactly the same thoughts in response to that. Especially since I am a transman and regularly choose the women's bathrooms because they are "safer" for me generally than the men's bathrooms these days, as long as my body appears female underneath my clothes which try to disguise that. If any cismen found that little fact out if I tried to use the men's bathroom, the potential consequences don't even bear considering.

To me, it's a choice between getting weird looks from the women and then shrugs when I pitch my voice up higher and show the chest more so they think I'm a butch lesbian and not some creepy perverted man, OR a huge threat of being yelled at, harassed, beaten up, or even raped and KILLED by the cismen who might take objection with me in their space and not fully and clearly male underneath my clothing. Yeah, it's a no brainer which I choose and why.

I do make sure to seem more a woman when I'm in the women's bathrooms however, to help other women feel safer and be able to go about their business without feeling like a strange man just followed them into the bathroom. However, immediately upon exiting I have to look entirely a man again and move away from the bathroom doors quickly so that people around me may not be able to tell which bathroom door I just used. It's just safer that way.

[Em]

Indigo wrote: "Well for those who worry that "all trans children might be pressured to do all the interventions and surgery even if they may not end up as trans!!" you can rest easy. I think some people look only..."

Indigo, thank you for your comment. I'm not sure if I wrote anything personal yet, so I'm going to start at the beginning:

I was born a girl in 1984. From the start, I displayed a large amount of traditionally masculine characteristics. I hated dresses and skirts, favoring loose fitting, generic looking clothing. I loved math and science. I played with Lego's, climbed trees, and wrestled with my older brother. My favorite TV shows were "Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles" and "Batman, the Animated Series". I was teased right from kindergarten. I was called a 'boy', and later, a 'lesbian' (neither of which should be insults, but when said with derision, anything hurts).

Fast forward to college, I started to find acceptance for being boyish. It was finally okay. I wasn't a failure of a girl anymore. I read an autobiography of a transman and one of my close friends decided to start transitioning. I thought I knew something about the trans experience - like I had a window into that world.

Yesterday, I read your post and realized that's not true.

I had gender dysphoria, yes. But I never had a problem with my body. I wanted to be a boy, yes. But I never felt like I WAS a boy. My problems were with society - telling me I was doing it wrong. My problems were being praised every time I did something uncomfortable, and never getting praise for the talents that came naturally. My problems were not with myself - with my body, with my identity.

I need to take a step back and realize that my genderqueer experience was not a trans experience, and I cannot continue to carry this belief that "I know what it's like." I don't.

(As for your comments about it actually being very hard to transition, thank you for the info. I was coming from a place where I feared kids like me might be encouraged to transition. As a kid, I might have gone for it, and it would have been a big mistake. I guess the liberal media has been going a little overboard, but perhaps that is necessary to combat the years and years of resistance they are up against.)

[Em]

Indigo wrote: "I think this article is utterly perfect for this thread. :) I hope everybody gives it a good look! <3

https://www.buzzfeed.com/skarlan/13-r......"

This model's explanation actually encompasses a lot about how I feel about my identity. I'm definitely the "action kind of woman." Only, I don't pass for male so well. I worked in construction for a bit, and got cat-called by the other construction workers. It bugs me that being a woman limits the things I can do without unwanted attention.

[Marie]

what is up with this cis nonsense? did it become to much of a struggle to try to say and type the word straight. I guess it is a bit much being has about 5 extra letters. this politically correct nonsense needs to be abolished. don't even get me started on the word trans which is used for everything and as such has become an all encompassing umbrella term.

[Bunny]

Cis doesn't mean straight Marie. Those words mean two different things.

Cis means that you identify with the gender you were assigned at birth. A person can be cis and also be straight, gay, lesbian or bi or asexual. Or trans and any of those sexualities. Gender and sexuality are not the same.

[Bunny]

Interesting short article here about gender and brain structure

http://neurosciencenews.com/neuroscie...

The study of sex differences in the human brain is more complex, more controversial, and more emotionally laden than in any other species. This hot topic is frequently misrepresented in the media. Studies on sex differences are often oversimplified and taken out of context. ... This style of reporting promotes stereotypes and misconception of science. The truth is that the brains of men and women have a lot in common.

The Royal Society has recently released a special issue on sex differences in the brain. It features an opinion piece which argues that human brains do not fall into the two distinct categories of male and female. The piece is partly based on a study from last year: a revolutionary analysis on some 1,400 human brains. ... The study revealed ...most people having a mixture of features that are “typical” male, female, or common in both sexes.
...
Geert de Vries, director of the Neuroscience Institute at Georgia State University, has another take on sex differences in the brain. He argues that these differences could not produce but instead prevent differences in behaviour. According to de Vries, men and women differ dramatically in their physiology and hormones; having different brains might be a way of compensating for these differences3. Do male and female brains develop differently in order to promote similar behaviour?

We do not know if these structural differences really are compensatory. However, this concept is not new and we can observe such compensations on other levels.

[Katelyn, Our Shared Shelf Moderator]

Marie wrote: "what is up with this cis nonsense? did it become to much of a struggle to try to say and type the word straight. I guess it is a bit much being has about 5 extra letters. this politically correct n..."

If people are using trans as an umbrella term for "everything" then it probably isn't being used correctly by the people you're hearing throw it around... It's not a matter of being politically correct, it's a word that describes a specific experience. Of course there are also other identifiers within the trans experience, but like Bunny said, it's not used as an umbrella term for all LGBT identities, which is maybe what you were implying?

[Marina]

Well, according to some definitions you're trans if you don't identify fully with the gender asigned at birth, so that genderqueer or agender people are considered trans. not all of them are comfortable with this label, though it seems like mostly it's due to the binary normativity that continues even with trans acceptance. (so if you have a vagina and everyone used to think you're a girl, and you say you're transgender, the automatic assumption is that you're a guy, not genderqueer or otherwise non-binary) it can also be due to internalized transphobia i suppose.
As of now what we should do as allies is avoid generalizations either way. always point out that trans folks aren't necessarily binary, but don't force the label on anyone.

And yeah it has nothing to do with sexual orientation. I suppose sexual activity can be one of the reasons to transition, but not for everyone.

[Ross]

It is interesting to note that sexuality as opposed to gender are constructs of people animals engage is Homosexual and Heterosexual relationships through nature the impulse being satisfied is the goal.

Neuroscience has offered a lot on the subject recently and it does support the notion that other than biological functions like child birth man and women can fill the roles in society interchangeably, indeed gender roles in Human terms do appear to be entirely social constructs and not biologically driven at all.

[Marina]

https://medium.com/@juliaserano/how-t...

[Bunny]

Thanks Marina, good share.

[Wolf]

Hey! Another transman here!

Something I have found difficult (and it's been touched on by others) is that in the process of transitioning, some of us may over-enforce gender role stereotypes because of how others perceive us. I am not a 'real' man until I do so-and-so manly things (hunting, beer drinking, etc). If in these predominant environments where we are being told "Well, you can't be a man until you complete this ritual," we may sometimes try and over-prove our gender. After all, this is particularly so because we are likely to have been denied our gender or have faced pushback from being allowed to transition.

One thing I was told immensely early on in my transition that I love came from a cisman; he said "In a lot of ways, you're lucky; not because of the adversity, but rather because I was told what a man was. I never had to opportunity to really think about it. People told me I was a man and because I was one, I had to do certain things. You actually get to study it and choose what that means; what it means to you, and how you will be as a man..."

That's really stuck with me because it can be immensely difficult to transition and NOT stick with pre-written roles. It can become very lonely, because as a man, I love painting my nails, I love fashion, but I also love martial arts and hunting/fishing/rifling. I do not see any of these things as specifically 'gendered' based. In my view, anyone of any gender may paint their nails or go hunting.

What struck me as extremely surprising was, in my first year transitioning, many cisgender men came to me and lamented many things. I was told I was lucky, because unlike them, I had the chance to wear make-up and not get beaten up for it or mocked. (I didn't have the heart to tell them that I wasn't a large fan of wearing make-up.) They lamented that men's fashion was very uninteresting and that they really hoped that one day, men's fashion was more open and exciting. (This was a difficult thing, in transitioning, actually; I found my clothing choices to suddenly become immensely bland and overly sports-oriented, something I personally care little about.) Many cismen came to me and told me that they found it difficult, always told that they must be strong and that if they showed emotion or were in trouble (such as they needed help medically/health-wise, financially, in schooling, etc), they were mocked and were, essentially, SOL, on their own.

I became, suddenly, a sort of confession-booth for cismen, as they saw a man who understood their plight and who would also have no reason to mock them for their transgressions against "being a real man."

While I became a confession booth for cismen, I also suddenly lost the ability to talk about what it was like to live as a woman (because while I am not a woman, I have lived, outwardly, as a woman for 25 years). At least not without endangering myself by being blunt as to my trans status. Thankfully, the state I grew up in is generally pretty welcoming for trans people, yet still, there is danger, and while I continue to live in a state that is 'trans friendly,' I remain on the lookout.

A factor that remains difficult is that many assume that I desire to transition and be done with it. I do not take this view. Some transmen I know do; they want to take the necessary medical and social steps to be seen as men and never speak again of the matter. I, personally, do not take to this. For that reason, I often consider myself non-binary in the process--both transgender/transman and non-binary.

I view my time as presenting as a woman as very important. It provides a unique and important role in my life as a man.

This also means that I open myself up to criticism. Am I a 'real' man? Because I refuse to erase my time presenting as a woman? To some, this seems to be the case. That a 'real' man would never want to continue with that association (to keep those memories alive). A 'real' man would never want to have been seen as a woman. A 'real' man would want to prove his manliness through a series of initiated tasks that are culturally appropriate.

I once thought about creating a blog around the theme of what it means to be manly. The gist of it was, in the end, the concept of manly is very subjective. Gender roles exist, but people are dynamic, and in truth, they are created; gender roles are cultural tools. Where one person may see a good hunt the sign of a boy becoming a man, another could see a boy becoming a man through the growing of facial hair, yet even that is not universal (I know many cismen who lament that I can grow beard hair more lushly and more quickly than them, for in some cases, they cannot grow any at all).

I mentioned that concept to someone who has known me all my life and they told me "But you are still a boy; what do you know of being a man?"

And that spurred a lot of thoughts to me. What is being a boy? What is being a man? My one cis friend was right; unlike him, I had to think quite heavily on what being a man was (and isn't).

I do not believe I will ever fully know, other than that I know that I am a man, a transman, a non-binary individual, who has lived several lives in one body, but a man nonetheless, and my cismen friends have lived their own lives as men.

The only thing I know most about being a man is that I am one, just as I know I am human. I cannot stop being a man any more than I can stop being a member of my species, but what SORT of man, I have power on. I have the freedom to choose my own role in society; we all do, trans or cis or non-binary alike. Gender presentation, gender roles, and gender are all different concepts. One of these, I cannot choose, and that is my gender. I am who I am. How I present myself, how I take on roles in society, that's a choice. I personally believe we should have the freedom to express ourselves in a much wider way than society has always allowed us, and for that, I cannot support upholding rigid social laws on what makes a man a man or what makes a woman a woman.

From my experience, I have noticed that many I have talked to who uphold "This makes a man" and "This makes a woman" rhetoric often seem to fear that they will be told new things; that they themselves are no longer men or women (be they cis or trans) and that they will have to go through the trials of new gender rituals to become men and women yet again (and who wants to do that?). In some cases, some fear that it will break down a social code; one much older man I know refuses to wear pink or purple because, particularly due to rampant homophobia, those who wore certain colors or certain jewelry, it told other men "he is not interested in men." He often asks me "But how will you know who is gay or who is straight?" and he does not ask me out of hatred for gay men, but rather... A curious case of complete confusion. He simply doesn't understand how one would know. I told him "We ask." He was shocked, because to him, that is dangerous--if you asked the wrong man (a homophobic man), you would be hit and it was too open, too dangerous for a man who is gay. But for many in my much younger generation, it's no consequence. We ask. It's very simple, yet it also means that there is no quiet code of clothing colors. That does change, but I think it's a better change. Just as we are seeing a freedom of what we wear as men and women, I think we will see much more freedom, as individuals, in what we can do and wear and in our conversations, we will not have that quiet, pervasive fear when among others. We will not have to worry if we have forgotten certain clothing codes. We can worry about more important things. We can have more free conversations.

I do not think there is shame in fear; any major change can be frightening, even if it is a good thing, but that is the importance of bravery and courage. My father, who was supportive during my transition, was rather frightened during its initial start as well, but I think, too, that fear is something we often feel ashamed of. Along the way, he has often expressed concern--Will I be okay? Do I understand the ramifications of this radical, public change? (For no matter what, it is a public one.) Do I understand what will happen biologically? Will it be safe, health-wise? Will someone do something despicable to me because of who I am and because I am transitioning? Will I be able to find a job? Will I, effectively, ruin my life because I choose to be who I am?

There is a lot to consider, but there was also great danger in not taking that step forward into the precipice before me. That danger, if I remained, would have eaten me alive, and so, there was no choice; I had to jump--to transition--or perish. If I had listened to my fear, to my father's fear, there's no doubt in my mind that my life would have been much more difficult, much more painful. Fear is not something to be obeyed, but rather at times, with care, to use it as a tool. Fear allowed me and my father to discuss important issues, but if we had succumbed to our fears, it would have hurt us in the long run.

I do not think there should be fear that we will enforce gender roles, as many of us trans people often take great thought into what makes our gender, on what makes us what we are. It can be a difficult journey, and not unlike puberty, we, as individuals, may have some mishaps, certainly, for we are all human, but to keep these conversations quiet, that is the most dangerous of all.

[Bunny]

extralizard13 wrote: "Hey! Another transman here!

Something I have found difficult (and it's been touched on by others) is that in the process of transitioning, some of us may over-enforce gender role stereotypes becau..."

Hi extralizard13! Nice to meet you. That was a really well stated post full of all sorts of things I found interesting! The point that people may over enforce stereotypes when transitioning for sure. I am in conversation right now with someone who is beginning a transition and is worried that she will be pressured to present more "femme" than she is comfortable with. Or on the other side as you say, people may be tempted to over prove.

It's interesting what you say the cis man told you about having an opportunity to really question and challenge what it means to be a particular gender. That aspect is of particular interest to me personally because I have always questioned and often pushed back against what society tells me about what it means to be female. It sounds like we have that in common, even though I'm cis and you are trans, we both know what gender we are, but question what society tells us about what that is supposed to mean.

I was especially interested by what you said about becoming a confessional for cis men who shared their misgivings and discomfort with the gender roles they are required to play. I have often wished to have the experience of being able to talk about those things with men, but those that I know seem very closed to the idea of ever discussing such things with me or even admitting that there is anything to talk about. I don't know why.

I have long felt that it must be true that there are at least some cis men who question their roles but finding cis men who are willing to talk about it has not been something that's ever really happened for me.

[Indigo]

extralizard13 wrote: "Hey! Another transman here!

Something I have found difficult (and it's been touched on by others) is that in the process of transitioning, some of us may over-enforce gender role stereotypes becau..."

YOOO! Great to see ya there man. :D And look! Someone else who rambles on and makes long posts like I do. xD I'm not alone! This is awesome. Hehe.~

I loved reading through your post with all the information that came up. Interestingly enough, while you had those talks with your father, I had mine with my mother. My father is not... emotionally close to me. We don't talk of a lot really. But he still supports me all the same even if he does seem a bit bewildered at the beginning, or at certain points of the transition.

I commend you for knowing what is most comfortable for you, and right for your body, to feel comfortable with saying no to the medicalization hormones and surgery if that doesn't work for you. I'm doing the testosterone hormones myself (or will start it soon gods all bless) but surgery is something I'm definitely totally fine with waiting until I either have that strong inner frustrated need to pursue it (the chest) or the results of the surgery are FINALLY up to my standards (the groin). As of yet, neither is happening or will happen any time soon. I at least know a lot from researching it just in case, so should the day ever come then I'll be prepared and it won't be a shock to me.

But getting back onto the subject of gender, yes it's tricky trying to navigate that. I do get you on the having to "over-prove" to justify that you ARE a man, and some of the limited fashion choices available, as well as having interests that people would classify as "manly" or "womanly" either way but the truth is... they're just activities. Just actions. Just clothes. Just items. Just objects. Just jobs. They DON'T have gender. We arbitrarily assign gender to it.

I get you on not liking makeup. It's a pain to apply it even if I do like how I look at the end, if feels weird on my face, and it's a pain to take it off again at the end. Instead of nail polish for me, I like the flowing, elegant dresses, and robes and cloaks but I've not been able to wear anything like that (except perhaps the cloak?) for years out of fear of being misunderstood by others and told "Why are you wearing that? Aren't you supposed to be a man? You were a woman all along!" kind of bs. I don't yet feel secure enough in my presentation as a man (aka my ability to be "read" as man even while wearing those clothing) to be able to do that. People really do love to treat you as female and thus woman if they see bumps on your chest. Like, instant snapshot judgment and then total change of behavior. Ugh.

I do wish men were supported in their love/like/exploration/experimentation of "stereotypically feminine" activities, clothing, behavior, actions, and the like. I feel we are robbing so many boys as they grow up because of this, and denying them the chance to really grow up as a fully-rounded HUMAN because any sort of emotional expression and discussion aside from anger and ...emotionless.... is "feminine" and "thus must not be done *LE GASP*" Oh the horror *eyeroll.*

I'm a very effeminate gay man myself, and find my kinship with the effeminate gay men community with all the sassy "gurrrrl~" and wrist flicking, sashaying, tight-and-pretty-clothes-wearing, awesome community. Unfortunately, while I may want to BE them as well as have the hots for them, I've been told that because I don't have a penis then that gay man doesn't feel any sexual attraction towards me. ..... -.- Puh-leaze! My genitals do not define me and should not define one's attraction to someone else too. *siiighs* We are more than our parts. And if you really need something like a penis in lovemaking, there are always toys to make up for that. ;) So I felt that was a gross brushing off that us gay transmen often have to deal with that I've seen. So annoying.

I've not been a confessional for cis men myself, but I've also not shoved my experience as a woman away, the same as you. Hell, I don't always got a choice ya know? Especially since I still bleed once a month (speaking of which I should be getting a "visit from Aunt Flo" soon <.< >.>) and can still get pregnant if I don't use protection so it's not like I suddenly don't have anything in common with AFAB women once I declared myself a man in my true gender. I still identify as a feminist and will continue to do so even when I'm well entrenched in being read as a man. It's for the rights and validation of femininity in equal respects to masculinity today, ya know? At least that's how I think of it.

It was interesting to read that from the guy of the older generation, why he didn't wear pink and purple. I guess it makes sense but I certainly love how we can just ask as the younger generation and find out if someone is attracted to people like us or not. You have a lot of insightful comments and I look forward to talking with you further about this. :) I love discussing important topics and broadening my mind - especially in matters like this!

Great to talk with ya!

[Indigo]

Bunny wrote: "extralizard13 wrote: "Hey! Another transman here!

Something I have found difficult (and it's been touched on by others) is that in the process of transitioning, some of us may over-enforce gender ..."

I get the same from the cisgender guys I have to work with or that I talk with. One exception is my boyfriend who is a wonderfully accepting and understanding cisman who's bisexual and has transgender brother of his own. We've often had engrossing long and deep conversations about this and he's known me since before I came out as being a man so he has seen and loved me both as a presenting woman as well as a man.

I find those who have more experience with transgender friends and family are more willing to discuss gender in general. They've seen with their own eyes that it isn't really all cut-and-dried as all that, and perhaps think a little bit of their own gender in response to that. Hell, I first really had awareness of transgenderism with my transfriend who came out after middle school but due to a severe scarcity of representation, I thought all transmen absolutely hated their chest and had so much body dysphoria to the point of having to wear a binder or else want to kill themselves, and feel nothing in relation to their genitals, like my friend did. So I must not be trans!

It was only later when I found out how diverse the trans experience is that I realized more and more that I'm potentially transgender. Experimenting with being genderqueer and giving myself that permission to "dabble" in going as a guy more and more helped me to confirm to myself that I truly feel more comfortable and happier as a guy than as a girl. Even now, my dysphoria is more with the groin than it ever is with the chest.

But most often, people usually need to have that exposure to someone who's challenging the gender binary to be able to really think about what that means for them, and it's often easier (but can be even harder and more jolting in some respects) if that gender non-conforming person is your friend or family member. And then there are wonderful people like you Bunny who challenge what it means to be your gender even if you're cisgender, and give others that needed safe space to be their gender, especially if its "radically different" from how they were assigned at birth. So thank you! <3 We need more people like you in the world. :3

[Wolf]

Ah! That's similar to what I did, regarding HRT and surgeries. I went with testosterone first, but for me I always had the plan to do chest reconstruction surgery. I can't wear chest binders because they cause stomach issues, chest pain, and tiredness for me. I've tried a few brands but it was causing too much health issue. I totally understand about the groin-based surgeries. I've looked into them, as potentials, but since currently its not causing me issues, it's not really on my list to do. The surgeries are fascinating to me, though, and I'm really hoping medical technology steps up! I've met a fair number of transmen who say "I would, but the technology currently... Ehh...."

Me and an English transmen that I sort of penpaled with had really similar experiences. We both had very obvious beards but for some reason, everyone went with "does this person have boobs" first. In the end, I think we decided it was "Frustrating, a little bit amusing, and really telling of how our cultures determine gender." Pre-chest reconstruction surgery, people, particularly men, would see my chest and say "Oh, miss..." and then they would notice my beard and be like "Ah...." He said he had a lot of issues with it as a server, which I think is in part due to "women are the servers" stereotype. I know because I'm short, often people will assume I'm a woman. (I'm 5'4"! Charlie Chaplin height!)

Talking with some of the older generations (the guy I mentioned grew up in the 50s in the US) is amazingly fascinating. Admittedly I don't get a lot of narratives from people who grew up from the baby boomer generation or the 80s... I'm the first person to be born in my family since the 40s, so we have a maaaassive generation gap!

I used to talk a lot to my grandmother (who always said "I don't feel like a woman"; my aunt and I both wonder a lot about this) about social interactions. The youngest in our family (who were born in the 40s) have the most fascinating concepts of how to present themselves--they're the ones who are like "Wearing a certain color means you're gay" and such.

Researching into the early 20th century is fascinating, regarding gender roles. Sometimes I wish I had more options to study this in college. I've seen some pamphlets pre-WWII that state that "Men are the workers who bring in the money; women are the ones who control finances." It's really intriguing to me of when and where these concepts came into being. It's not like these eras were 'perfect' (re: I'm not trying to romanticize the 'old ways', especially since women's rights suffered, too!) but rather it's really, really interesting on perception. Women and science/math is probably the most fascinating to me. One of the older women I know had massive issues because she studied at a university and the professors assumed she would "Give up and be a wife" when she was through. She ended up working for NIH and helped developed the measles vaccine. Unlike her coworkers, she had to wear make-up, heels, and present 'accordingly'. Yet at the same time, women were often picked for their focus, attention to detail (such as counting/finding patterns), and mathematics ability... It's fascinating to study.

I've seen a lot of people question who/what they are a lot, as non-cis, because of the lack of representation! I struggled with it myself, of course. One of my friends was really helpful, partially because their father was a urologist. They always had books about surgeries in the house, even in high school, so it made it a little easier to really think about it all. Even so, it took me a long time to come to terms with being trans. I kept thinking "Oh, well, if I can learn to just deal with it, it shouldn't be so bad" or "I'm not that kind of guy who likes sports and beer... And sure, that's not all there is to guyism, but why make that fight?"

Admittedly it took a rather traumatic life experience to be like "Eh, screw it, playing the game of 'its socially easier and safer' isn't worth it. We only live once."

I love it when cisgender folks help enforce safe spaces for gender discussion! The cisman I mentioned before, his wife is trans, but some of what he said has really helped me. I'm really glad that he, despite being a stranger, was one of the first people I came out to. He had a lot of good lessons on gender. A lot of conversations I've had with cis folks have been educational and great for everyone involved.

And thanks for also being on the forum! Initially when I joined, I was admittedly a little worried on whether or not there would be other transfolks :D