ARCHIVE - APRIL 2016 - Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America by Gilbert King

[Catbird]

I'm a bit late to the discussion but I think I now have the rules of the road figured out. We'll see how I do.

Jim wrote: "On one trip we stopped at a small restaurant in a small town north of Detroit..."

And Bentley wrote: "Wow Jim - I have to echo Teri's reaction - you did say that it was in a small town north of Detroit - Michigan is not exactly a Southern location for sure."

I grew up in small towns north of Detroit in the 60's and 70's. We lived there because my father's parents moved from TN to Detroit in the early 40's. There was a significant migration of all races from Southern states to the Northern & Midwestern industrial states during the Depression and well into the WWII years. The people brought their cultural beliefs with them, which is one of several reasons why bigotry was alive and well even that far north of the Mason-Dixon line.

(view spoiler)[ The book briefly references this seemingly incongruous situation in Chap. 4, pg. 50, where King discusses Marshall's role in the case of Joseph Spell, a black man working as a butler who was accused of rape by his employer,in Greenwich, CT.

So far as the book itself, I'm definitely learning a lot. Although I thought I knew a little bit about Marshall, I had no idea of how significant his role in the NAACP really was. I'm enjoying learning more about that and how the NAACP worked and developed. I like the way that King actually tells us two stories at once. By telling us about Marshall's history as a trial lawyer, he also tells us a lot about the history of the NAACP.

I have read a bit about the Groveland Boys. I think part of this tragic story was mentioned in an online article I read about the Rosewood Massacre, although I can't recall the site. But I'm finding the full range of facts about the actual events to be really interesting. The details and framework that King provides makes me believe that I'm getting a thorough, authentic big picture. I think he does a great job of portraying the environment in which these events took place. I can almost smell the sweat and hear the skeeters buzzing!

I was also struck by the comment quoted in Chap. 4, pg.43: "A lawyer's either a social engineer or he's a parasite on society".

Lawyer jokes aside...

While I certainly agree that there are issues that require social engineering to redress, such as racial equality, among many others, I'm not sure that I'm entirely comfortable with that concept in general. Is that truly the role of lawyers in our society? I understand that the judicial branch of our government has a role to play in creating social change through the court system. But, I'm not sure that the Constitution was written with the intent for non-elected and non-appointed lawyers to automatically be the engineers, even arbiters, of social changes. I don't mean to open a big political, can of worms discussion by making these comments. I just mean that within the context of this book and Marshall's life after these events, assuming that he shared the belief of his mentor, it must have been a factor in his actions and judicial decisions. It definitely gives me a new perspective on how he, and perhaps other justices, have been influenced by that philosophy.

On the same page, King writes: "The more successful blacks were reluctant to hire black lawyers, as they thought their suits would be better represented by white lawyers who had relationships with opposing counsel and judges."

This statement makes me wonder if Marshall felt betrayed by that reality. It was made in reference to the early days of his legal career in the late 1930's, when he was trying to build his practice. It's logical that someone would want what they felt was the best legal representation possible. But, it seems to me that human nature would make it natural to feel some resentment when already successful people won't help someone else achieve similar success. I know that Marshall was already somewhat associated with the NAACP by that time, but I wonder if the difficulty in creating a profitable solo career helped him to decide to work full-time for the NAACP. (hide spoiler)]

All in all, I'm hooked. I'm enjoying the discussion and looking forward to the next set of chapters.

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Response to Tim and Teri re: Affirmative Action
1. Is it still necessary? -Tim
2. Does it right the wrongs of the past? -Teri
3. Does it go against the idea of meritocracy? -Teri"

Response to Matthew - Affirmative Action

Very fair comments, Matthew and I've been mulling them over all evening. I think this topic can also be broadened to talk about other groups, most certainly American Indians, as well. As you say, this seems like a small "price" to pay to right the wrongs of the past. And then you wonder, will there ever be an end to prejudice? Will future generations ever see an undivided nation? If and when that happens, will the wrongs be righted?

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Teri wrote: "2. Sugar Hill - More Discussion Questions."

Response to Matthew - Week One, Question 2

(view spoiler)[I think economics does play a part for some. I would agree with Morgan, that indentured slaves were generally not held in much (if any) higher regards than slaves. Today, I think we can flip that around too, and say that some lower/middle class people can have a prejudice toward upper-middle class+ people. As diverse as our society is, people are more open to prejudice toward those who are different than them.

I don't know that I believe that most people look for an excuse to subjugate others, but I do think there are some people that do.

By the way, I think you have a typo in your author link. Looks like a closed bar paren got deleted. You might check that. Otherwise the citation is perfect. ;-)

Edmund S. Morgan (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Catbird wrote: "I'm a bit late to the discussion but I think I now have the rules of the road figured out. We'll see how I do.

Jim wrote: "On one trip we stopped at a small restaurant in a small town north of Det..."

Welcome, Catbird. You certainly have the rules of the road down pat.

Thank you for your perspective and filling in that gap on migration to the northern/mid-western industrial areas. That makes complete sense.

Response to Catbird - Chapter 4

(view spoiler)[The Spell case is likely but one of many similar cases, and I wonder how many were acquitted like Spell. I'm afraid that the answer might be low.

I like the way you describe the form of the book, telling two stories at once. There is a nice progression to the two stories building up the man and this defining case.

I agree that lawyers were not set up to be "social engineers". I don't believe that was ever the intent, only to be someone who knew the law to be able to represent their client in a court of law. With that, though, I think lawyers are often standing up for principles, for the right of the law, or what is right by their client and that may mean that we need to change the law. So, does social change sometimes come with changes in the law?

This book will certainly build on this subject and like you, I am looking forward to seeing how this philosophy of Houston's is expanded on. (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Matthew wrote: Welcom, Jovita. Re: Week One, Question 2

Response to Matthew's Point
(view spoiler)[
Matthew, you bring up an important point about the motivations behind hate and fear. You are correct that many times these attitudes are promoted due to financial reasons. We see this now in the current culture, with the discussion around illegal immigrants and the implied threat of murder, rape and drugs that they bring when they cross the border. Is this truly what those spreading those types of messages fear? Or are there other economic and political motivations at work?

Which begs the question, who's really in charge of the attitudes and ideas of a culture? As it relates to the book, how many of the perpetrators of these terrible violations against blacks really forming these ideas and beliefs on their own, and how much of that is actually due to the manipulations of those in power, who drive the common beliefs and attitudes of the day. As you said, many of the men leading these lynching parties were not rich, or highly educated, or highly cultured. Many of them were themselves poor or working-class whites themselves. If all they have ever known or been told is that blacks are a threat, they want our jobs, they want our women, they want the little we have, and when they themselves are barely scraping by, are barely holding their families together, its easy to see the appeal of that message and how it could take root. (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

Teri wrote: Response to Jovita - Week One Questions

Response to Teri
(view spoiler)[ That is a good point, Teri. I'm sure there were many, perhaps even a majority of whites who were not comfortable with mistreatment of blacks during this time, but who would have been terrified of the prospects of standing up against these acts. There would have been extreme consequences for whites who did so, such as being labeled a "n***-lover", being outcast from society, loss of employment, and in some cases even being threatened with bodily harm or death. I don't have the book here with me now, so I don't have the exact citations, but the case in Texas in which the victim's own father stated that he did not believe the accused black man was guilty, as well as the Tennessee cases where all the black men accused were acquitted by a jury of all white men, point to the fact that not everyone was okay with the idea of falsely accusing/imprisoning innocent men, regardless of the color of their skin. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Jovita - an excellent post in 105 and 106

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "Teri wrote: Response to Jovita - Week One Questions

Response to Teri"

Response to Jovita - Week One Questions

(view spoiler)[You are referring to the Lyons case (see pages 56 and 57). I know there were repercussions to those that stood up to racism, I just don't know how much / how often, but am curious.

There is also the white NACCP lawyer that worked with Marshall in the Spell case. He ended up riding with Marshall on that trip home from Tennessee. He was warned not to ride with him, but he did. Luckily he didn't get hurt, but there was definitely a reason for concern. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

2. Sugar Hill - Discussion Questions - page 30

(view spoiler)[On page 30, the author describes a time when Eleanor Roosevelt worked with Marshall and the NAACP. First Lady Roosevelt was drawn to the cause of Civil Rights; however, it seems that FDR was not.

1. Were you surprised at FDR's reluctance to get involved with the NAACP and the race case in Virginia?

2. Do you think that First Lady Roosevelt's involvement contributed to Marshall's successes?

3. Did the NAACP need the backing of the President? (hide spoiler)]

[Peter]

Reply re Discussion questions for Sugar Hill
(view spoiler)[
1. Were you surprised at FDR's reluctance to get involved with the NAACP and the race case in Virginia?

--- No, I had already known that FDR was not that much of a leader on these issues.

2. Do you think that First Lady Roosevelt's involvement contributed to Marshall's successes?

-- Not directly, but she helped change the mood of part of the country and helped make more people aware of the issues

3. Did the NAACP need the backing of the President?

-- It would have helped, but they did a lot without it.
(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Peter wrote: "Reply re Discussion questions for Sugar Hill"

Response to Peter - The Roosevelts

(view spoiler)[I just wonder what kind of a President that Eleanor Roosevelt might have been. (hide spoiler)]

[Catbird]

Response to Teri - #104, Chap 4

(view spoiler)[Teri wrote: "So, does social change sometimes come with changes in the law?"

This book will certainly build on this subject and like you, I am looking forward to seeing how this philosophy of Houston's is expanded on."

I think it's a chicken and egg kind of issue. Sometimes, social change occurs spontaneously in our society and then lawyers are used to translate that into judicial decisions and even legislation to codify the change. I think the modern gay rights movement is an example of that.

But sometimes, the courts decree social changes that society may or may not want. It's then up to individuals or organizations to employ lawyers as instruments in an effort to fight against the change, or to ensure it's enforcement.

I can see how lawyers can certainly be instruments of social change, but I'm still not sure that they should necessarily be the engineers (originators) of it, as that creates the potential for lots of slippery slopes.

Marshall was both. Fortunately for us, he was an instrument and an engineer for desperately needed social changes. He was certainly an instrument of social change by successfully arguing Brown v. BOE. But he was also a social engineer. In Chap. 4, pg. 49, King writes:

"Marshall's core strategy for the LDF in education, equal pay, or transportation cases hinged upon the careful selection of the plaintiffs, as the aim was to try their cases in favorable courts in order to establish precedents, usually through the appeals process."

Based on that description, King paints Marshall as a man with a plan, in this case to engineer badly needed social changes in a way that would also codify them as the law of the land.

As I read this book, and learn more about Marshall, I'm getting the distinct impression that most of what he did as a lawyer, and perhaps later as a justice, was based on deliberate choices made to advance his plans and hopes to engineer social change. In this case, that's not a bad thing. It's just, as I said earlier, that reading about him in this book has given me a new perspective on his approach to legal actions and decisions.

I'm curious to see if my impression remains the same as we get further into the book. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Catbird - Chapter 4

(view spoiler)[I like your statement that lawyers can be instruments of social change but not necessarily engineers. I think that sums it up very well. I agree that King represents Marshall as someone that is engineering change. And I, too, will be curious to see if your impression changes. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

3. Get to Pushin' - Discussion Questions - pages 33-34

(view spoiler)[In this chapter we get a background on Willie and Norma Lee Padgett. They are a young couple with a rocky start to their marriage, working through separation.

1. The author has a short discussion about actor/singer Paul Robeson, the Communist Party, and the House Un-American Activities Committee. How does this help set the tone of the chapter?

2. What are your impressions of Willie and Norma Lee at this point? (hide spoiler)]

[Steve]

A little late to the discussion but here are a few of my thoughts.
1. I did not know much much about the life of Thurgood Marshall outside of his time on the superme court, so reading this book has been a good learning experience for me.
2. I think discrimination in any form is wrong(against any race) so I am against affirmative action. I am trobuled with the fact that blacks have been denied civil rights at times in the history of our country. However, I am equally trobuled by the idea of giving something to someone(a job, college admission, etc) just becuase they are a certain race. I acknowledge that my opinion may be infulenced by the environment in which I grew up(white/suburban)
3. I am not sure what the author meant by the term "nigger breifs."(p 28) Anybody have any thoughts?
4. I am not supruised at FDRs reluctance to get involved with the NAACP and the Virginia Race Cases. From my personal reading, I have learned that FDR often thought Elanor was too activist on issues like social justice and race relations. This was just another example.

[Teri]

Steve wrote: "A little late to the discussion but here are a few of my thoughts.
1. I did not know much much about the life of Thurgood Marshall outside of his time on the superme court, so reading this book ha..."

Hi Steve! You are never late to our discussions. The discussion is never ending. :-)

Fair point on Affirmative Action. It definitely has its downfalls, certainly in relation to meritocracy. Sadly, I'm afraid, until there is no discrimination there is always the possibility that someone will choose a person not on merit alone, but by prejudice. And that goes for many types of people (race, creed, sex, sexual orientation). So the question comes to be, how do we hold companies, schools, etc, accountable that they are giving everyone a fair shake?

As far as the term "nigger briefs", as far as I can find, that is a comment that Marshall used to describe messy court documents. It is based upon the comment that a federal judge had made about being able to tell if the paperwork was "written by a white man or a Negro," (i.e. whether it was clean or messy) and he wanted to be sure that his paperwork was in order so that they were a good as any white man's paperwork. I don't seem to find that this term is ever used by anyone else.

Thank you for your comments. I'm looking forward to your further participation.

[Teri]

3. Get to Pushin' - Discussion Questions - pages 38-39

(view spoiler)[We learn about the events on July 15, 1949. Willie and Norma Lee are out drinking and driving. Their car breaks down and gets stuck. Two young black soldiers, Samuel and Walter, drive by and see that the couple are stuck. They stop to offer assistance.

Discussion Questions

1. How does the "Race Colony" of Eatonville play a part in tensions and mood of the area?

2. Norma Lee seemed to be friendly to Samuel and Walter. Thinking of our conversations about fear vs. prejudice, do you think she will be a person to give into fear because of Willie? (hide spoiler)]

[Tomi]

Teri wrote: "3. Get to Pushin' - Discussion Questions - pages 38-39
(view spoiler)[
We learn about the events on July 15, 1949. Willie and Norma Lee are out drinking and driving. Their car breaks down and gets stuck. Two youn..." (hide spoiler)]
I have never heard of a "race colony" before. Wonder how prevalent these were - and if they were particularly safe.

[Catbird]

Response to Teri, #114: "3. Get to Pushin' - Discussion Questions - pages 33-34"

(view spoiler)[

Teri wrote:
"1. The author has a short discussion about actor/singer Paul Robeson, the Communist Party, and the House Un-American Activities Committee. How does this help set the tone of the chapter?"

I think King's mention of the "Red Scare" adds several elements to the background of the chapter and the book, all of which work to illustrate the way that the perceived threat of Communism heightened the fears of social change for most white people in the South. Those fears increased the tension in race relations, which were almost, but not quite yet, reaching the boiling point.

One element was the fear that agricultural workers would become unionized (view spoiler)[(a theme that King discusses more fully in later chapters but is also applicable here - sorry, I've read ahead a bit.) (hide spoiler)]. By 1949, the U.S. had gone through 30 years of variations on the theme of the "Red Scare". In the post-WWI years and through most of the 1930's, the "scare" was mostly seen as a threat to the capitalist aspects of American society. Communism and socialism called for worker's rights, which in the U.S., essentially meant unions. Given President Coolidge's comment that "...the chief business of the American people is business”, it's not surprising that business leaders of the 1920's and '30's felt that Communism was a clear threat to the American way of life, not to mention their wallets.

Although WWII somewhat delayed the growth of unions, the labor movement returned in force before the ink had dried on the instruments of surrender. Unions for industrial workers made huge strides in the immediate post-war years. But unions had only barely established a toe-hold for agricultural laborers. In states like Florida, which were heavily dependent on agriculture, even a suggestion that Communists were present in America, and might influence the mostly black pickers who made up the low-cost labor pool, was taken as a serious threat to the profitability of their agri-business. The solution devised by business leaders in places like Florida was to prevent any form of "Communist agitation" from reaching that labor pool, even via such innocuous avenues as popular entertainers like Robeson.

Another element was the fear of the Communist philosophy of (supposed) equality. The idea of a class war where the white poor would gain social and financial equality with the elite white rich was scary enough. But the implied idea that equality would also be pan-racial was anathema to most Southern whites of all classes. Fears of a slave or black revolt had been present in American white society since the 17th century, especially in the South. King's inclusion of Robeson's story in Chap. 3, pg. 33, specifically that Robeson was "ambitious to become 'the Black Stalin' ", and that "the Communist Party planned to set up a black republic through an armed revolt in the South...", informs the reader that fears of a black insurrection were still alive and well in 1949.

Lastly, by introducing the chapter with the news that "President Truman had called an emergency meeting..." (Chap. 3, pg. 33), King informs us that people had a tangible, if still unknown, reason for fear. It was obvious that the Cold War was heating up, and that the "Red Scare" was real and growing. This led to the belief that any and all Communist activities in the U.S. had to be stopped at almost any cost. By extension, it also meant that it was every American's patriotic duty to do whatever was necessary to defend their way of life against any form of Communism. In the South, because of the reasons mentioned above, this translated to cracking down on the black population, to ensure that they "kept their place" and didn't attempt to achieve the equality that Communism (supposedly) promised. This "patriotism" also allowed many Southern white people and institutions to feel justified in using any means necessary to root out and prevent even the slightest signs of the dreaded "black uprising".

By including the element of the "Red Scare", especially Robeson's story, King informs us that the events in the story of the Groveland Boys didn't happen in a vacuum. Instead, the story takes place in an environment of heightened fears which permitted, even sanctioned, an increase to the already unjust and violent treatment and distrust of blacks.

I don't think King meant this to be seen as an excuse for the actions of the white people and the courts. Rather, I think that because most people who are reading this book in 2016 can barely fathom how the Groveland Boys story could happen, King felt a need to kind of fill in the background. Doing that helps him to illustrate the environment in which these events took place, in the same way that his descriptions of oppressively hot courtrooms, sweat-soaked men, and frightening car chases make us feel like we're almost there, in Lake Co., Florida on July 15th,1949. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Tomi wrote: "I have never heard of a "race colony" before. Wonder how prevalent these were - and if they were particularly safe. "

Tomi ~ I had not really heard the term "race colony" before, but I did know that there were predominately black towns in the south. I had been looking for more information earlier this week and did come across this site that has some history on Black Towns in America:

http://www.theroot.com/photos/2011/01...

So I altered my Google search to "Black Towns" and find a fair amount. Here's a great article from the Washington Post that even mentions Eatonville, Florida, that is mentioned in the book:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifest...

And here is a project/website dedicated to the preservation and promotion of the history / study of these towns:

http://www.blacktownsproject.org/

I'll be adding these sites to our Glossary soon.

With that said, to answer your questions, I do believe they were prevalent in the south, particularly after the reconstruction period. There were Black Towns in the north as well. I can't speak on authority of whether they were safe, but I would think that for the residents, they were.

[Teri]

Catbird wrote: "Response to Teri, #114: "3. Get to Pushin' - Discussion Questions - pages 33-34"

Response to Catbird - Chapter 3 - Pages 33-34

(view spoiler)[Very well said, Catbird and you hit the nail on the head. I'm not sure I can add to what you've posted. It's very well thought through.

This is what makes King's book so intriguing is that he really gets you into the time, understanding the volatile situation and environment of the time. I agree, it certainly is not used as an excuse of what white people did at the time but to really take you there and feel the tension.

Did you know they are making a movie of this book? I am looking forward to seeing it and I hope they can do justice to this book. (hide spoiler)]

[Francie]

Teri wrote: "Catbird wrote: "Response to Teri, #114: "3. Get to Pushin' - Discussion Questions - pages 33-34"

Response to Catbird - Chapter 3 - Pages 33-34

Very well said, Catbird and you hit the nail on the ..."

(view spoiler)[Wow, a movie. Can't wait to see it. I too hope they do a good job on it. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Francie wrote: "Teri wrote: "Catbird wrote: "Response to Teri, #114: "3. Get to Pushin' - Discussion Questions - pages 33-34"

Response to Catbird - Chapter 3 - Pages 33-34"

Movie

It's "in development" but it appears Lionsgate bought the rights in 2013. Could be some time still. :-(

[Marc]

I too am a little late to the discussion, just finished chapter 5. I knew only a little about Justice Marshall (basically, that he was one, he was pivotal in the civil rights movement), but that's about it. Hardly any detail at all, so all these particular cases are new to me, although I am not surprised at all.

As for Affirmative Action, I do have some comments. Speaking as a Native American, particularly in the fields of science and engineering, I have both witnessed and experienced such discrimination. I don't think any of what I'm saying are spoilers, since it's not in the book, so I won't add the spoiler html.

Anyhoo, as a child, I was quite bored in my 6th grade math class, so bored I did literally every problem in the book. I went to a elementary school on my local reservation. Now, my one year older brother was considered smart, he went to an off-rez elementary school. So when I went to 7th grade, the middle school forced me into a remedial math course, teaching literally the very same math book I had in 6th grade. My math grades made no difference at all. I thought at first, easy A, but I got so frustrated the more I thought about it, that it would jeopardize my chances of going to a good school and majoring in science (I always wanted to be a scientist, probably because of dinosaurs!), but anyhoo, falling immediately behind would hurt. So I spoke to my mom, we went and lobbied to move me up 2 grades. Because of my skin color, neglecting any of my grades and that I wanted a challenge and felt I was fully capable of doing advanced math, they ended up moving me up to just 7th grade math. I am positive if my skin was white, it would never have been a question. and did it affect me later on? Yes it did, as I found out in my physics courses, that my classmates knew more than I did at first. I fortunately was determined enough to catch up, but I shouldn't have had to. Believe me, physics is hard enough as is. How many potential minorities/women who could have been great ended up getting discouraged and quitting?

Now, as for affirmative action, lets be honest here. We all like to work with people we are familiar with. If it comes down to two equally skilled people, one your race/gender, the other not, it's more than likely the person selected would be the same race/gender. I've seen women, highly qualified, who don't get picked. Women are more than capable of doing STEM-related work as scientists, engineers, and managers. I've been lucky enough to have worked under a small handful who were good. Yet, even though women are a little more than half of the population, I don't have many as peers, let alone managers, VP's, CEO's, etc.

But to even keep up with our fellow non-minority males, we have to work harder and sacrifice more, and, even then, in the case of women, they don't even get the same pay.

Often people get confused about Affirmative Action, they think quota, which it is not. Just because I'm a minority does not mean I should get the job over a better qualified candidate. That is not fair to anyone.

Anyhoo, I'll climb off my soapbox now...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

This is what I love about my group - there are so many different people from so many different countries or cultures or ethnic groups and we can all learn from each other.

Marc, I hear you and I think we would all be better off if we could imagine walking in each other's shoes. Thank you for your perspective and for trusting all of us to share it with.

You are correct - it is not a spoiler but a a very interesting perspective and you are never too late or behind or even a little late on the History Book Club. We welcome you at any time on any book we have discussed or we are discussing and that is why we leave the threads open.

But it is always better to be discussing the book "in the thick of it" and you are not too late for that (smile).

[Marc]

back on the book, my admiration for Thurgood has greatly grown!!

(view spoiler)[
The fact he faced lynching on more than one occasion, not just threats, but at least that one case where he quite literally dodged the rope, wow! Reading about the exact environment he had to operate in...
(hide spoiler)]

I hope the movie, if it's made, does justice to not only him, but the environment he and all the African Americans had to operate in. While we have come a long long way, we aren't out of the woods just yet! Now I'm going to dig into the next chapters! the author is quite good, it's hard to put down the book, even as he describes horrible details

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Yes, Marc I agree. I am glad that you are enjoying the read.

[Teri]

Marc wrote: "I too am a little late to the discussion, just finished chapter 5. I knew only a little about Justice Marshall (basically, that he was one, he was pivotal in the civil rights movement), but that's ..."

You're right on time to the discussion, Marc. :-)

Thank you so much for your candid response and viewpoint. I have been thinking myself lately on the affects of Affirmative Action on Native Americans, Asians, and women, as well as African Americans. And in our current political climate, we should add Hispanics and Latin Americans to the list.

It is often hard for me to wrap my head around the idea bigotry and prejudice. America has become such a melting pot society that everyone is some kind of a "minority". Just when you think that there will be a generation before long where the "old ideas" of bigotry will be extinguished, I see a young person that has inherited the idea from somewhere. So you wonder if it will ever end.

[Teri]

Marc wrote: "back on the book, my admiration for Thurgood has greatly grown!! "

Response to Marc - Chapter 1

(view spoiler)[You can really get a sense of what he went through and the fear he had to have. Yet he stood strong. You really have to admire him for that. Do you think that the outcome of the night after the trial would have been different if all of the NAACP attorney's were black? (hide spoiler)]

[Catbird]

Response to Teri: #121 - Chapter 3 - Pages 33-34

Thanks Teri!

Teri wrote: "Did you know they are making a movie of this book? I am looking forward to seeing it and I hope they can do justice to this book."

Oh no! I hope I haven't jinxed it. Every time I really like a book, the movie is always less than good. I hope this will be the exception to the rule!

But for now, I'll just enjoy the book.

[Teri]

Catbird wrote: " Response to Teri: #121 - Chapter 3 - Pages 33-34

Thanks Teri!

Teri wrote: "Did you know they are making a movie of this book? I am looking forward to seeing it and I hope they can do justice to..."

I so agree. I rarely like a movie adaptation of a book.

[Teri]

4. Nigger in a Pit - Discussion Questions - pages 42-45

(view spoiler)[Marshall has come to work at the NAACP along side his mentor Charles Hamilton Houston.

1. What is the "black man's condition" that Marshall talks about?

2. This section talks about Marshall's sense of humor, often telling off-color jokes. Why do you think he used this type of humor and how did affect his relationships in the office, if at all? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

4. Nigger in a Pit - Discussion Questions - pages 54-55
5. Trouble Fixin' to Start - Discussion Questions - pages 59-63

(view spoiler)[1. On page 54, Marshall states "Imagine it...a Negro on trial for his life being called 'Gala Day'." What did his comment mean? What impact did the Lyon's case have on Oklahoma at the time? Why was the trial still a positive for Marshall, even though it was a guilty verdict?

2. In chapter 5, Sheriff Willis McCall was able to disperse an angry mob who wanted to come after the black prisoners accused of raping Norma Lee Padgett. What far reaching impact did his actions make? (hide spoiler)]

[Eva]

Oh, running a bit late myself for joining this discussion... Not had a chance to start the book till a couple of days ago, but since then can hardly put it down.
The name Thurgood Marshall didn't ring any bells, but I had heard of Brown v. Board of Education before. But then again at school we only really learned about cornerstones of the Civil Rights Movement.
I have to admit that most of what I know about the South at that time and its racial segregation history is from fictional accounts in books, movies and TV series. So, I have certain images in my head when I hear Ku-Klux-Klan or lynch mob, but keep sceptical as to the level of dramatization.
So, I was quite shocked now to read how accepted the situation in the South seemed to be. No hush-hush about who was a member of the Ku-Klux-Klan. No state officials (sheriff and so on) trying to pretend that they not agree with the mob. There seemed to be a proper "lynch mob culture"!
That's at least the impression that I got now from reading the book. But how is it seen in the US: is that considered a Southern problem? And only part of the Southern history? So, would somebody from Minnesota or Washington say "well, it's bad what happened down there, but it's got nothing to do with me/this would never have happened here?" (formulated a bit crass, I hope I can make clear what I want to ask).

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Eva, this apparently happened predominantly as described in the areas that were described in the book and during that timeframe. Unfortunately it is part of this country's history that folks are not pleased with. There wasn't much of any of this occurring in the North and in Minnesota (smile).

However we welcome you to the conversation - this book was a Pulitzer Prize winner so it is going to grab you.

However, make sure to use spoiler html - let me show you. This is how it would look and if you are trying to get use to it - go to messages 5 and 6 and for the timeline and syllabus so that you can keep up with the group reading and join in on the discussion - go to message 11.

Chapter One

(view spoiler)[I am going to respond to Eva from Germany here and tell her that everybody is shocked at the historic times of the Civil Rights Movement (hide spoiler)]

Glad to have you with us and it is never too late to join in.

[Matthew]

Eva wrote: "Oh, running a bit late myself for joining this discussion... Not had a chance to start the book till a couple of days ago, but since then can hardly put it down.
The name Thurgood Marshall didn't ..."

(view spoiler)[Welcome, Eva. I have always lived in Florida, but married a northerner, for what it's worth. Personally, I suspect racism is pervasive throughout the nation, but I would bet it has been more supported by the governments in the South over the years. I don't think this story would have unfolded quite so badly up north, without some of the state-sponsored violence. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Hi Eva. You're right on time for the discussion.

Response to Eva - Civil Rights in America

(view spoiler)[As Bentley and Matthew has mentioned, the level of racial tensions during the 40s was more predominate in the south than the north. That's not to say that it wasn't seen in the north. These tensions were divided in the nation (and to a point, you may still see it today) by north and south because the southern states were where slavery was prevalent and the northern states were mostly free states for African Americans. Racism and bigotry is more paramount in the southern states. As you move west (from the Colorado eastern border running north and south through the US) you see even less racism.

So by "south" in this context, you are talking about states from Florida up the coast to the Carolinas and then west over to Oklahoma and Texas. Personally, most of the racial tensions I had heard about involved Arkansas, Georgia, Mississippi, and Alabama. I had not heard a lot about Florida, so this book has been a real eye opener to me.

I have always wondered how much of this part of American History is heard/read about/discussed in other countries. So thank you for your post/viewpoint. Glad to have you in our discussion. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

We will be moving on to week two of our discussion tomorrow. That will cover chapters 6-11. As we reflect on week one, what has stood out to you it this past week's reading? Any major surprises or revelations? Any general feedback that you'd like to offer so far?

[Helga]

I have been a little late starting this book and discussion as I have been out of town for a scientific conference but wanted to state how enlightening this book is. I am thoroughly enjoying it. I did not know much about Thurgood Marshall except from Brown vs Education and that he was the first African American Supreme Court justice. I find the racism appalling but know it has been prevalent in the South. I live in SC so know that racism is still around. I greatly admire Thurgood Marshall.

Chapter 2: Sugar Hill, page 22
(view spoiler)[This statement was so telling to me when he said: " So I wrapped my constitutional rights in cellophane, tucked'em in my hip pocket....and caught the next train out of there, ". He never felt safe until he traveled north again. It was a terrifying time and it makes me cringe when I read about how badly they were treated. (hide spoiler)].

South Carolina has a horrible history on racism to this day. One periods of time was Pitchfork Benjamin Tilman era. He was the Governor and Senator of SC who promoted racial discrimination and violence and instituted populist reform and Jim Crow laws. He was also responsible for lynching. He lived from 1847-1918. I can not understand why a public University in the Northern part of the state has a major building named after him and his statue stands on out State House grounds. We only took the Confederate flag down a year ago after the shooting in the Charleston AME church.

http://www.biography.com/people/benja...

Thurgood Marshall was a trail blazer and so good for this country.
I hope the movie will do this book justice and that a lot of people will see it.

[Samanta]

Response to Week 1 Questions:

(view spoiler)[ 1. How much do you know about Thurgood Marshall prior to reading this book? The Groveland Four case?
I've never heard of him before or the case, because here in schools we learn the basics and the most known parts of US history.

2. What is the difference between prejudice and hate? Hate and fear? How are they depicted in the book?
Prejudice, while not really positive (or it can be), doesn't have to be dangerous. For example, I can think that some people (as part of a cultural group) are not particularly hard working or pleasant to communicate with, but it will not make me hate them and certainly won't make me wish/do them harm. Hate is always dangerous. In he case of hate and fear, hate is usually a consequence of fear, although, I'm having trouble understanding what exactly did the white people fear, since they considered black people lesser beings. But then again, I don't consider myself as having a racist mind or tendencies, so I can't understand. The book shows black people constantly being picked upon for "crimes" every human being is, unfortunately, capable of doing, regardless the skin color, but in the eyes of the white people, the white people are incapable of those things (being the superior race and all that jazz...I hope my sarcasm is not showing that much).

3. How do you feel about the changing of focus between the chapters? Do you feel that you're getting to know Marshall as his career progresses?
I don't have problem with the changing of focus. The book is very easy to read, the writing style smooth. At this point,though, all I want to know is what the heck was going on in Norma Lee's head, playing with people's lives like that. This book makes me do angry (because of the story), I can barely keep it together. Finding out about Marshall's life and career was interesting, nevertheless. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Helga wrote: "I have been a little late starting this book and discussion as I have been out of town for a scientific conference but wanted to state how enlightening this book is. I am thoroughly enjoying it. I ..."

Welcome, Helga. It's good to see you here in our discussion. You will certainly be able to give us a great perspective living in South Carolina. Thanks for your comments.

Response on Sugar Hill page 22

(view spoiler)[That quote really makes you understand the fear he withstood and you really have to admire his gumption to push through and be a voice and help for so many in the south. It is eerie and chilling. (hide spoiler)]

I am a bit shocked that they have a statue of Tilman. I am sure he is one of many in our history that have monuments dedicated to them, yet are now perceived as having some deplorable record. Of course, we still have Jackson on our $20 bill and part of his claim to fame is the Trail of Tears. But we are making progress and removing the Confederate flag is a step in the right direction.

[Samanta]

Bentley wrote: "Tim I agree with you - I had not heard much about the case either.

And I am glad that you like the coolness factor of my placing in the masthead - a photo depicting the case which we are reading a..."

Regarding your question to Tim, on Prologue - page 3

(view spoiler)[I've never really researched Malcolm X and Martin Luther King in depth, but I did learn about them in school a bit. From what I did hear, I always imagined them as great orators, whose aim was to spur people to action to finally make a difference. They were leaders. It seems to me that Marshall, on the other hand, worked in the background, helping people with tangible issues and problems. That was his way of making a difference, and you know you will always here first about the ones that are the loudest or put to the front line, while those in the background may work as hard, but will remain largely unknown to the general public. That is, at least, how I see it. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "I have been a little late starting this book and discussion as I have been out of town for a scientific conference but wanted to state how enlightening this book is. I am thoroughly e..."

Many activists are actively trying to get the statue removed and also the name changed of Tilman Hall but there is resistance. We made progress with the flag though after many years.

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Response to Week 1 Questions:."

Welcome, Samanta. I'm glad to see a few international members joining this conversation. It helps those of us in the US understand how our issues are perceived around the world and in this case, how prevalent racism / bigotry is in other countries.

Week 1 Questions

(view spoiler)[I guess I wouldn't expect that people outside of the US would have heard of Marshall or this particular case. Honestly, I may have heard about him in school, but not in depth or if we did, I don't remember. I knew his name, I knew he was a Supreme Court judge. I don't know that I even realized he argued Brown v. Board of Education. Sadly, here in the US, some parts of our own history are glossed over in school.

I like your comment that prejudice does not necessarily involve hate. It is an opinion one has on others that are different than themselves. Thanks for your comments. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Helga wrote: "Teri wrote: "Helga wrote: "I have been a little late starting this book and discussion as I have been out of town for a scientific conference but wanted to state how enlightening this book is. I am..."

Here in San Antonio, we've had a debate about changing the name of one of our high schools: Robert E. Lee High School (http://www.mysanantonio.com/opinion/c...), in light of the debate over the Confederate flag. So the removal of the flag is opening a conversation nationwide. That's a good thing.

[Samanta]

Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion Questions - Prologue - page 2

Quote from page two:

"A federal judge once told him that with just one look at the smudges or erasures on a lawyer's pleading he'd know if it w..."

Response

(view spoiler)[I might be wrong, but isn't there a difference between calling someone a Negro and a Nigge(a)r? To me, the first one definitely sounds less offensive and I believe it was the name used for the black people of US (I don't know when exactly they became African Americans, although I think it's still a bit of a silly (for lack of a better word) name, because it still gives an impression that the people called African Americans are different from other Americans, which kind of beats the point of everyone being American without distinction. I hope I don't offend any US citizens with this, but this is my non-American view of the issue). On the other hand, Nigger sounds like a really nasty and offensive word and it was used as a derogation. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Samanta

(view spoiler)[Samanta both of those terms are not used here today and have adverse connotations although the latter is more offensive - they also were referred to as the colored people. So you can see that sensitivities over time change.

I think blacks or African Americans are the terms used to denote race currently. Just the Caucasians are called whites. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Samanta, make sure to use spoiler html - let me show you. This is how it would look and if you are trying to get use to it - go to messages 5 and 6 and for the timeline and syllabus so that you can keep up with the group reading and join in on the discussion - go to message 11.

Chapter One

(view spoiler)[I am going to respond to Samanta here and tell her about html (hide spoiler)]

Glad to have you with us and it is never too late to join in.

[Samanta]

Matthew wrote: "Curious, is there anyone one here discussing this book who lives in a country other than the USA? Just curious of your perspective "from the outside looking in.""

Croatia. We have our own grievances here, but this is unimaginable to me.

[Teri]

Samanta wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion Questions - Prologue - page 2."

Response to Samanta - Prologue - page 2 - terms

(view spoiler)[Yes, the "N" word (nigg*r) as it's often referred to is a highly offensive word here in the US and is not used as normal vernacular. We are using it here in this discussion, only in quotes to the book. However, I will say that some artists (i.e. musicians / rappers / comedians, etc.) might use the term still and it is almost always a black artist that uses the term. There is often controversy on whether that is acceptable or not. Negro is an old term like the former term that is less offensive, and no longer a part of modern vernacular. Most consider it just as offensive. The more common terms that are more politically correct are black and African American. I have black friends who prefer one over the other and it varies. Not all black people are descendants of Africa, although many just assume they are, so technically, African American may be incorrect but some prefer that term.

Many races here in the US have similar controversy over the term used for their heritage. There are Native Americans who do not like the term Indian and vice versa. There are Mexicans who do not want to be labeled Hispanics and many are offended if you mistakenly call them Latina / Latino.

Okay, that was a long answer to your question, but this is a candid conversation and I hope that is helping you understand the concerns here in the US. It really varies by person / area, but you are correct that the term you mention is indeed considered offensive. (hide spoiler)]