ARCHIVE - APRIL 2016 - Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America by Gilbert King

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Jim:

(view spoiler)[Jim - these are just extracts which address membership numbers - started with 4 (1909) - then 60 (same time period), then the NAACP membership grew rapidly, from around 9,000 in 1917 to around 90,000 in 1919, with more than 300 local branches. Throughout the 1940s the NAACP saw enormous growth in membership, recording roughly 600,000 members by 1946. It now has a half million members. (hide spoiler)]

(view spoiler)[EXTRACTS FROM HISTORY
Founding group

Founded February 12, 1909, the NAACP is the nation's oldest, largest and most widely recognized grassroots–based civil rights organization. Its more than half-million members and supporters throughout the United States and the world are the premier advocates for civil rights in their communities, conducting voter mobilization and monitoring equal opportunity in the public and private sectors.

The NAACP was formed partly in response to the continuing horrific practice of lynching and the 1908 race riot in Springfield, the capital of Illinois and resting place of President Abraham Lincoln.

Appalled at the violence that was committed against blacks, a group of white liberals that included Mary White Ovington and Oswald Garrison Villard, both the descendants of abolitionists, William English Walling and Dr. Henry Moscowitz issued a call for a meeting to discuss racial justice.

Some 60 people, seven of whom were African American (including W. E. B. Du Bois, Ida B. Wells-Barnett and Mary Church Terrell), signed the call, which was released on the centennial of Lincoln's birth.

Other early members included Joel and Arthur Spingarn, Josephine Ruffin, Mary Talbert, Inez Milholland, Jane Addams, Florence Kelley, Sophonisba Breckinridge, John Haynes Holmes, Mary McLeod Bethune, George Henry White, Charles Edward Russell, John Dewey, William Dean Howells, Lillian Wald, Charles Darrow, Lincoln Steffens, Ray Stannard Baker, and Fanny Garrison Villard.

Echoing the focus of Du Bois' Niagara Movement began in 1905, the NAACP's stated goal was to secure for all people the rights guaranteed in the 13th, 14th, and 15th Amendments to the United States Constitution, which promised an end to slavery, the equal protection of the law, and universal adult male suffrage, respectively.

The NAACP's principal objective is to ensure the political, educational, social and economic equality of minority group citizens of United States and eliminate race prejudice. The NAACP seeks to remove all barriers of racial discrimination through the democratic processes.

The NAACP established its national office in New York City in 1910 and named a board of directors as well as a president, Moorfield Storey, a white constitutional lawyer and former president of the American Bar Association. The only African American among the organization's executives, Du Bois was made director of publications and research and in 1910 established the official journal of the NAACP, The Crisis.

Growth
With a strong emphasis on local organizing, by 1913 the NAACP had established branch offices in such cities as Boston, Massachusetts; Baltimore, Maryland; Kansas City, Missouri; Washington, D.C.; Detroit, Michigan; and St. Louis, Missouri.

Joel Spingarn, one of the NAACP founders, was a professor of literature and formulated much of the strategy that led to the growth of the organization.

He was elected board chairman of the NAACP in 1915 and served as president from 1929-1939.

A series of early court battles, including a victory against a discriminatory Oklahoma law that regulated voting by means of a grandfather clause (Guinn v. United States, 1910), helped establish the NAACP's importance as a legal advocate.

The fledgling organization also learned to harness the power of publicity through its 1915 battle against D. W. Griffith's inflammatory Birth of a Nation, a motion picture that perpetuated demeaning stereotypes of African Americans and glorified the Ku Klux Klan.

NAACP membership grew rapidly, from around 9,000 in 1917 to around 90,000 in 1919, with more than 300 local branches.

Writer and diplomat James Weldon Johnson became the Association's first black secretary in 1920, and Louis T. Wright, a surgeon, was named the first black chairman of its board of directors in 1934.

The NAACP waged a 30-year campaign against lynching, among the Association's top priorities. After early worries about its constitutionality, the NAACP strongly supported the federal Dyer Bill, which would have punished those who participated in or failed to prosecute lynch mobs.

Though the bill would pass the U.S. House of Representatives, the Senate never passed the bill, or any other anti-lynching legislation. Most credit the resulting public debate—fueled by the NAACP report ―Thirty Years of Lynching in the United States, 1889-1919‖—with drastically decreasing the incidence of lynching.

Johnson stepped down as secretary in 1930 and was succeeded by Walter F. White. White was instrumental not only in his research on lynching (in part because, as a very fair-skinned African American, he had been able to infiltrate white groups), but also in his successful block of segregationist Judge John J. Parker's nomination by President Herbert Hoover to the U.S. Supreme Court.

White presided over the NAACP's most productive period of legal advocacy. In 1930 the association commissioned the Margold Report, which became the basis for the successful reversal of the separate-but- equal doctrine that had governed public facilities since 1896's Plessy v. Ferguson.

In 1935 White recruited Charles H. Houston as NAACP chief counsel. Houston was the Howard University law school dean whose strategy on school-segregation cases paved the way for his protégé Thurgood Marshall to prevail in 1954's Brown v. Board of Education, the decision that overturned Plessy.

During the Great Depression of the 1930s, which was disproportionately disastrous for African Americans, the NAACP began to focus on economic justice. After years of tension with white labor unions, the Association cooperated with the newly formed Congress of Industrial Organizations in an effort to win jobs for black Americans. White, a friend and adviser to First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt, met with her often in attempts to convince President Franklin D. Roosevelt to outlaw job discrimination in the armed forces, defense industries and the agencies spawned by Roosevelt's New Deal legislation.

Roosevelt ultimately agreed to open thousands of jobs to black workers when the NAACP supported labor leader A. Philip Randolph and his March on Washington movement in 1941. President Roosevelt would also agree to set up a Fair Employment Practices Committee (FEPC) to ensure compliance.

Throughout the 1940s the NAACP saw enormous growth in membership, recording roughly 600,000 members by 1946. It continued to act as a legislative and legal advocate, pushing for a federal anti-lynching law and for an end to state-mandated segregation.

Source: Entire History of the NAACP: (with photographs)

http://naacp.3cdn.net/14a2d3f78c1910a... (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Prologue - Discussion Questions - Prologue - page 2

(view spoiler)[Quote from page two:

"A federal judge once told him that with just one look at the smudges or erasures on a lawyer's pleading he'd know if it was written by a white man or a Negro. It was a remark Thurgood Marshall never forgot. In cases like his there was too much at stake for him to be filing any "nigger briefs"."

1. What implications did the federal clerk's remarks have on Thurgood Marshall and why?

2. Black rap musicians still write into their lyrics derogatory terminology toward themselves and their race when they use the word "nigger". Why do they include this terminology in their lyrics? And do they consider it derogatory or not?

3. I remember a time when my dear sweet grandmother called the folks across the street Negroes or the Negro family and it was never considered offensive. Nobody was nicer to this family or had these neighbors over for coffee more than my dear grandmother but the terminology of that time period was different and less politically correct than it is now (Negro, Colored People, African Americans are just a few - although the book refers to worse ones).

Of course all immigrants seemed to be called some kind of offensive name by various minorities - whether it was the Italians being called offensive words like wops or ginnys or the hispanics being called spics or the Irish being called micks - all terms that most of society would never dare utter today due to political correctness and good deportment. But sometimes it was used in a jocular way by some and they said that it did not mean any harm. We have freedom of speech - where does that begin and end with such terminology which can be quite hurtful to some people?

When did these terms become politically incorrect and why? And how politically incorrect was the federal clerk's remarks or was he simply making an innocent remark to Thurgood which Thurgood never forgot. Did Thurgood feel inferior? Why do terms like these hurt others or are they too thin skinned? Do you think that we are getting too politically correct about everything now and that it infringes on free speech? Where does a society draw the line?

Note: The terminology above is used only for a discussion of the quote on page 2 of the Prologue. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Prologue - Discussion - Prologue - page 2 - Additional Quotes for Discussion

(view spoiler)[Quote for discussion: His wife, Buster, unable to bear the children he longed for, had one year for his birthday given him the electric train set she had hoped someday to present to her husband and their son.

1. Do you think that having children of his own was a reason that Thurgood married again so soon after Buster passed away?

2. Was this a strange gift to give your husband if you were unable to bear children he had longed for?

3. How did the railroad play a role in Thurgood's life?

4. What were your thoughts on this quote - also on page 2 - "He had devoted more than a decade of his career to overcoming the "inherent defects" of a Constitution that had allowed, by law, social injustices against blacks, who had been denied not only the right to vote but also equal rights and opportunities in education, housing and employment. With his far-reaching triumphs in landmark cases he argued before the U.S. Supreme Court, Thurgood Marshall would indeed redefine justice in a multiracial nation and become, as one civil rights pioneer described him, the Founding Father of the New America."

4a) Do you think that the Constitution had "inherent defects"?

4b) How did the Constitution allow for social injustices against blacks?

4c) Were blacks the only minority that the Constitution was not fair too? Weren't other minorities not protected equally - like the disabled, the elderly, women, gays, folks over 55 who are laid off for younger and less expensively paid counterparts, the mentally challenged, and other minorities who have come to this country?

4d) Are/were the blacks looking for injustices where there aren't/weren't any or do/did they have a point?

4e) How do you feel about affirmative action? Do you feel that it is necessary in our society to give an "under class" breaks which we need to become or stay a diversified and democratic society or do you feel that affirmative action unfairly disadvantages whites?

4f) Are we really a welcoming multiracial country even today and even as we call ourselves - the melting pot?

4g) Are today's immigrants (legal or otherwise) facing the same challenges as blacks?

4h) What about the current views on the immigration problems we face today by both sides of the political aisle - are these reminiscent of the fight for equality that the blacks faced or face or are they something different?

4i) Is terrorism playing a role in how Americans view newcomers? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Lynching - Prologue - page 3 - the year 1935 - Rubin Stacy

(view spoiler)[Spartacus Educational discussed lynching and specifically Rubin Stacy wth the following - (spoiler thread has link to source)

Quote: "The NAACP hoped that the election of Franklin D. Roosevelt in 1932 would bring an end to lynching. Two African American campaigners against lynching, Mary McLeod Bethune and Walter Francis White, had been involved in helping Roosevelt to obtain victory. His wife, Eleanor Roosevelt, had also been a long-time opponent of lynching.

In 1935 attempts were made to persuade Franklin D. Roosevelt to support a Anti-Lynching bill that had been introduced into Congress. However, Roosevelt refused to speak out in favour of the bill that would punish sheriffs who failed to protect their prisoners from lynch mobs. He argued that the white voters in the South would never forgive him if he supported the bill and he would therefore lose the next election.

Even the appearance in the newspapers of the lynching of Rubin Stacy failed to change Roosevelt's mind on the subject. Six deputies were escorting Stacy to Dade County jail in Miami on 19th July, 1935, when he was taken by a white mob and hanged by the side of the home of Marion Jones, the woman who had made the original complaint against him. The New York Times later revealed that "subsequent investigation revealed that Stacy, a homeless tenant farmer, had gone to the house to ask for food; the woman became frightened and screamed when she saw Stacy's face". (End of Quote)

a) What does the above reflect about our country, the president, the political environment, the citizenry, journalistic reporting at that time, culture, racism, Anti-lynching bill? What thoughts come to mind when practices such as these are discussed or what are your thoughts on any of these topics related to lynching or Rubin Stacy? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

1. Mink Slide - Columbia, Tennessee - November 18, 1946 - pages 7-8

(view spoiler)[Quote: "Lose your head, lose your case," was the phrase Marshall's mentor, Charles Hamilton Houston, had drilled into him in law school. Marshall could tell that his adversary, seated alone at the prosecutor's table, was in the foulest of moods as he was forced to contemplate the political ramifications of the unthinkable: his failure to win a single conviction against black lawyers defending black men accused of the attempted murder of white police in Maury County, Tennessee".

1. What do you think was going through the mind of Tennessee district attorney general Paul F. Bumpus? Did he feel out lawyered, or just frustrated about his case?

2. Charles Hamilton Houston seems like one of the unsung heroes of the Civil Rights movement at that time - he was the mentor of Thurgood Marshall at law school. What impact did the phrase "Lose your head, lose your case" have on Marshall - not only in the Tennessee case but in the cases he argued before the Supreme Court and in life? Of course, Houston's name is quite renowned in the civil rights inner circles.

3. Did you know that Elena Kagan (Supreme Court Associate Justice) - when she was Dean of Harvard Law School was named the Charles Hamilton Houston Professor of Law?


Root and Branch - Charles Hamilton Houston and Thurgood Marshall

Who was Jim Crow? What were the implications made of blacks in the minstrel material? How did Charles Hamilton Houston change things? What were the Jim Crow laws?

Video: Title: The Man who Ended Jim Crow, Charles H. Houston~ Brown v Board of Ed Topeka: https://youtu.be/i8yiLq8GufI

Jim Crow laws were state and local laws enforcing racial segregation in the Southern United States. Enacted after the Reconstruction period, these laws continued in force until 1965.

More: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Cro...
Cover to an early edition of "Jump Jim Crow" sheet music (c 1832)


Source: Wikipedia, Youtube, NAACP (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Some quotes from 1. Mink Slide for discussion

(view spoiler)[Please feel free to discuss any of the quotes from the chapter - Mink Slide. What are your feelings on the case, what occurred afterwards, Duck Swamp, the Mink Slide incident, the Columbia Riot of 1946 and the drive to Nashville?

Quote 1: (page 12)

1. "The nearby white mobs meanwhile did not disperse, and blacks in the Bottom were growing more fearful as the night progressed. Drinking beer and circling in cars, whites fired randomly into "Mink Slide," as they derisively refereed to the Bottom. Blacks, drinking beer on rooftops, were also firing in response and by chance hit the cars of both a California tourist and a black undertaker. When half a dozen Columbia police eventually moved into Mink Slide, a crowd of whites followed behind. They were welcomed by shouts of "Here they come!" and "Halt!" and then, in the confusion, came a command, Fire!" and shots were exploding from all directions. Four police were struck with buckshot before they retreated."

Quotes 2, 3 and 4 - Chapter One - Mink Slide - Page 13

2. "You black sons of bitches," one patrolman shouted, "you had your-alls' way last night, but we are going to have ours this morning."

3. "With horror, she laid eyes of a defaced casket. Photographed soon after, the image of that casket would be published in newspapers across the country and ultimately come to symbolize the Columbia riot of 1946. Across its lid, in large letters, "KKK" was crudely scrawled in chalk."

4. "The Tennessee State Guard had cordoned off the area, but they did nothing to stop the destruction and violence in Mink Slide".

Quote 5 - Chapter One - Mink Slide - Page 14

5. "An editorial in the Columbia Daily Herald proclaimed that the "situation is in the hands of the state troops and state police....The white people of the South... will not tolerate any racial disturbances without resenting its, which means bloodshed. The Negro has not had a chance of gaining supremacy over a sovereign people and the sooner the better element of the Negro race realize this, the better off the race will be."

Quotes 6 and 7 - Chapter One - Mink Slide - Page 15

6. "NIGGER READ AND RUN. DON'T LET THE SUN GO DOWN ON YOU HERE. IF YOU CAN'T READ, RUN ANYHOW!

To Marshall. they recalled a message he had received mid trial from Walter White: "Take care of yourself and keep your feet in running order."

7. "You men the lawyers for the National Association for the Advancement of Colored People?" "Yes, I'm Thurgood Marshall. This is Maurice Weaver and this gentleman is Alexander Lobby."The cop looked them over. "Drinking, eh?" "I beg your pardon," Marshall replied. "I said you've been drinking. Celebrating the acquittal. Driving while intoxicated." .......Using flashlights, Marshall was able to read the "John Doe" warrant signed by a deputy sheriff, charging the lawyers with transporting whiskey in violation of "county local option law."

Quote 8 - Chapter One - Mink Slide - Page 16

8. "Drunken driving? You know I'm not intoxicated," Marshall said. "I haven't had a drink in twenty-four hours!" ....."This wasn't the Klan of "cowardly hood," rather, it "wears cap and visor, and shining badge....It is the LAW. It arrests its stunned victims, unlisted."

Quote 9 - Chapter One - Mink Slide - Page 17

9. The car began to slow. The lawmen were quietly mumbling and pointing: then the driver turned left down a dirt road, toward "the famous Duck River." Marshall knew that nothing good ever happened when police cars drove black men down unpaved roads. He knew that the bodies of blacks - the victims of lynchings and random murders - had been discovered along these riverbanks for decades. And it was at the bottom of Duck River that, during the trial, the NAACP lawyers had been told that their bodies would end up."

Quotes 10, 11 and 12 - Chapter One - Mink Slide - Pages 19 and 20

10. "You go over there, " one of the policemen said. "We'll be over."
"No, you won't. I'm going with you," Marshall replied, reminding the police that they had placed him under arrest. "You're not going to shoot me in the back while I'm 'escaping'. Let's make this legal."

11. "Everybody," Marshall was down at Duck River waiting for the party."

12. "In another car, Maurice Weaver made it back to Nashville that evening along with Harry Raymond, who immediately began typing his story for the Daily Worker. "I am certain....a lynching was planned, " he wrote. "Thurgood Marshall was the intended victim." Walter White was convinced that had Looby obeyed police orders and continued driving to Nashville on that November night of 1946, Marshall "would never had been seen again." Safely back in Nashville and his heart still pounding, Marshall made a late-night phone call to U.S. Attorney General Tom C. Clark to tell him what had happened. "Drunken driving?" Clark asked. "Yes." Clark paused. He had come to know Marshall well since being appointed attorney general in 1945 by President Truman, and he had just one question for the man who would one day replace him on the U.S Supreme Court. "Well," Clark asked, "were you drunk?" "No," Marshall asserted, "but exactly five minutes after I hang up this phone I'm going to be drunk!" (hide spoiler)]

All, the discussion questions for the Prologue and Chapter One - Mink Slide are all listed above. Feel free to address and discuss and interact with each other on any of the discussion questions and quotes. Or feel free to discuss any segment or quote or event written about in the following chapters from April 1st through April 10th - (pages 1 through 71) - these are the pages and chapters we are covering together for these first 11 days. At any time before or after this suggested syllabus timeline - feel free to discuss any and all of the above.

APRIL 1ST THROUGH APRIL 10TH

PROLOGUE 1

| 1 | MINK SLIDE 7
| 2 | SUGAR HILL 21
| 3 | GET TO PUSHIN' 23
| 4 | NIGGER IN A PIT 46
| 5 | TROUBLE FIXIN TO START 58


Anti-lynching banner flew outside NAACP headquarters in midtown Manhattan from the early 1900s until 1938

[Teri]

Tim wrote: "Question 1"

Response to Tim - Week 1 / Question 1

(view spoiler)[I love the quote that you mentioned. I think the author has done a great job of giving us a portrait of Marshall from the very beginning. You definitely get a sense of Marshall being a force to be reckon with in the courtroom. Yet, we are also reminded that he had to be careful himself. It was a dangerous time, even for a strong man like him. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Tim wrote: "Prologue - Page 3 -- Chapter 1"


Response to Tim and Christopher - Prologue / Chapter 1 / Lynching

(view spoiler)[Yes, you are correct, in the South at that time, the entire town/city including some/most/all of the authority figures were a part of the discrimination. The authorities sometimes spearheaded things and as Christopher mentioned, it caused a lot of fear among residents so many didn't stand up for what was right, because they might find themselves in trouble too.

On the topic of lynchings, PBS has an interesting discussion about lynching in relation to their show American Experience: The Murder of Emmitt Till that you might want to peruse: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/till/peo...

Sadly, lynching was a way to take the law into a groups own hands. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Prologue"

Response to Matthew - Page 5

(view spoiler)[You really do get a sense of community in these pages. You have to wonder if it was a just a way of life at that time. They had to look out for each other. I'm sure everyone had their "thing" to do, to play a part. Whether it was for Marshall or anyone in their community. What happened to one person, certainly affected everyone. (hide spoiler)]

[Peter]

(view spoiler)[ Question 1
Prior to reading the book (which I have just started) I knew a bit about Thurgood Marshall through other readings about Supreme Court justices and about civil rights. I had not heard of this particular case.

(hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Hi Peter. Glad you are joining us in this discussion.

Response to Peter / Thurgood Marshall background info

(view spoiler)[I will be curious how this book stacks up against the others you've read and if you learn anything new about him as an attorney and Supreme Court Justice. (hide spoiler)]

[Peter]

Teri wrote: "Hi Peter. Glad you are joining us in this discussion.

Response to Peter / Thurgood Marshall background info

[spoilers removed]"
(view spoiler)[
I am sure I will learn new things; I have not read a full biography of the man. Everything I've learned has come from reading other bios (e.g. of Brandeis, LBJ and so on) or of the Brown vs. Board of Ed. case, or of civil rights generally.

I also helped my son write a paper on him, but since that was a 6th grade paper, it wasn't exactly a dissertation!
(hide spoiler)]

[Tomi]

Bentley wrote: "Tomi I guess the above is not a spoiler of the book but make sure to follow the spoiler format - refer to messages 5 and 6. Very easy to do and I gave you the html that you can use (copy and paste)..."

Got it! I didn't think that would qualify as "spoiler" information. Thanks for the links too.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

It wasn't exactly as I mentioned in my post but just wanted you to be aware of the spoiler info. You are most welcome Tomi

[Jim]

Several people shared personal events in their life that involved race or discrimination in the 50's. So I thought I would share one event that I remember like it was yesterday.

When I was about 9/20 years old (1954-5) my father would take me to a small farm to take care of his horse and go horseback riding. On on trip we stopped at a small restaurant in a small town north of Detroit. There were only three or four people besides us in the restaurant, but there were little folded signs on each table that said reserved. When we left I asked my dad why they had reserved signs on the tables when they had just a few customers. He told me they did it so they wouldn't have to serve Negroes.

That was my first experience with discrimination. Even though I was young, I knew that this was wrong. I think this set the stage for my reaction to discrimination throughout my life.

[Teri]

Hi Jim! So much of our mindset on issues dealing with society starts at a young age and what we are exposed to. We, as an American society, have come along way since the 40s, 50s, and 60s, but we certainly have a long way to go still. I think it's important to read books like Devil in the Grove so we can hopefully break the cycle.

Was this a trip in the south? Did you attend a segregated school when you were young?

[Peter]

I have now read the first five chapters. Very good so far.

I wonder what gives some people such incredible physical courage. I am sure that all of us agree that what was going on in the Jim Crow south was deeply wrong. But what gave Marshall and many others the courage to venture south and do something about it in the face of very real threats of extreme physical harm?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Jim wrote: "Several people shared personal events in their life that involved race or discrimination in the 50's. So I thought I would share one event that I remember like it was yesterday.

When I was about 9..."

Wow Jim - I have to echo Teri's reaction - you did say that it was in a small town north of Detroit - Michigan is not exactly a Southern location for sure. Old prejudices die hard and what you saw and experienced you remembered because it struck a chord with you even at that very young age.

My elderly father never forgets a day in Monroe, Louisiana during the war when he was stationed there because he was in the Air Force and he was riding the bus back from town (which was totally crowded and all seats taken) to the base and somewhere along the route a black woman got on with two shopping bags and had a very difficult time of it and she was very very pregnant - looked to be almost 9 months pregnant and my father got up out of his seat and offered it to her. By the way she had a hard time even climbing the steps of the bus to get on and the bus driver was yelling - NIGGER, HURRY UP - I DON'T HAVE ALL DAY. That was already upsetting for my father to see since he had just come from the North to be stationed in the South. He even remembers the cotton fields right by the air force base and air strip runways. Those cotton fields are not there anymore either but the air base is now the Monroe airport.

Even now he said he would never forget the woman's face when she looked at him with such a feeling in her face that she was offered a seat. She didn't want to take it but my father said please sit down - I would rather stand. She sat down.

And everybody on the bus glared at my father, the bus driver brought the bus to a screeching halt, got up out of his seat, came back to my father and yelled pointing a finger in his face saying - don't ever do that again here in these parts and in my bus - if you know what is good for you. He then yanked the pregnant black woman out of the seat that my father had given her and yelled to her - Nigger go to the back of the bus. She had to get up and walk the whole length of the bus and stand.

Luckily for my father he was in full uniform with all of his medals and paraphernalia and he got off soon at his base stop. As the bus went by - he said these men were staring at him glaringly out the windows of the bus. He says he thinks the fact he was in uniform saved him from a comeuppance of some sort and he has never forgotten that day or how the black pregnant woman looked at him with gratitude but fear.

Human beings can be very cruel and our American history is sadly not without these scars and blemishes which run deep. A sad state of affairs which we are fortunate that the majority of Americans concur was an unfortunate period in our history.

[Teri]

Oh, yes, you did say Detroit. Silly me.

[Teri]

Peter wrote: "I have now read the first five chapters. Very good so far.

I wonder what gives some people such incredible physical courage. I am sure that all of us agree that what was going on in the Jim Crow s..."

Peter, I think it really takes someone with gumption. They say that people that are just reacting to stressful situations are able to put that into physical strength.

Do you think that perhaps Marshall feared more the results to Black society if he didn't react/work in the south than the actual repercussions to himself if he did?

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Peter wrote: "I have now read the first five chapters. Very good so far.

I wonder what gives some people such incredible physical courage. I am sure that all of us agree that what was going on in the Jim Crow s..."

I am not sure Peter - but it takes some deep courage at your core to stand up for yourself and finally say - "Enough is enough". And Thurgood learned how to do it within the system of law and that in and of itself was remarkably brilliant.

[Matthew]

Ch. 4, page 43
(view spoiler)["A lawyer's either a social engineer or he's a parasite on society." Now DISCUSS...LOL

I am a public defender in Florida, representing indigent criminal defendants, so I'd like to think I'm not a parasite and handle these necessary social issues well. I hope so, anyway. There are many fields of law I don't think I could practice, because they either don't seem to deal with social issues or else don't seem to build/engineer anything positive: divorce law and personal injury come to mind. Please note, I am not trying to offend anyone who may practice in these areas or anyone who sees their usefulness. In fact, I would love to hear them addressed positively, so I can learn. Clearly, divorce attorneys are necessary, I just don't think I could be the one to do it. Personal injury, I don't know. In the Bible, Luke 11:45-46, reads, "One of the lawyers answered him, “Teacher, in saying these things you insult us also.” And he [Jesus] said, “Woe to you lawyers also! For you load people with burdens hard to bear, and you yourselves do not touch the burdens with one of your fingers." I wonder if Thurgood was thinking something along those lines in his comment about lawyers.

Does anyone else agree with Thurgood's statement, and, if so, what areas of legal practice might you see as parasitical?

Or was Thurgood wrong, and why? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Matthew: - use the same html that I gave you that you can use to copy and paste the spoiler html and instead of the word spoiler at the beginning and at the end - just substitute a b for bold.

(view spoiler)[Matthew that is an interesting quote.

And you are doing a necessary legal job which needs to be done and one which is very difficult.

I think that Thurgood wanted to be an instrument of change and wanted to use the law to protect and benefit those who were stripped of their rights and did not have the power of words or the knowledge of law in order to protect themselves. But he seemed to feel that the profession of law fell into two camps - those who helped the oppressed and those that used the law to oppress others.

I am not sure that I would say that all lawyers are social engineers and I am not sure that I would say that if you are not a social engineer and a lawyer that you fall into the latter category of "parasite" either.

But then again this quote is from a person (Thurgood) who had developed an opinion based upon the times that he lived in and the experiences that he had.

Some other necessary professional job categories or designations have also received bad press - i.e., police officers, the courts, bankers, judges, Wall Street, politicians like our Senators and House of Representatives, sometimes even the Supreme Court - so opinions are varied and not always positive for sure. Almost forgot - also folks who are entertainment journalists or reality tv stars (I won't name names - smile)

Many folks agree with you about divorce lawyers - especially if you have had the unfortunate experience of going through a divorce (neither side likes them) - but of course I am sure that these folks are good human beings outside of their profession. Personal injury lawyers have notoriously been termed the "ambulance chasers".

So derogatory comments are not few in our society for sure. I guess Jesus was saying that lawyers manipulate the facts and make things worse. Well - he had a point sometimes (smile). Possibly Thurgood was thinking and explaining his thoughts along religious and spiritual lines.

I don't think that any man is wrong to have the feelings that he might have because he is the one who walks in his own shoes.< (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "Ch. 4, page 43 (BTW, would someone please tell me how to put this print in BOLD...)"

Matthew - to bold, use the html tag b. Just like you use the spoiler tag, just use the letter "b" in place of the word "spoiler", such as:

<b>Put Text Here</b>

Response to Matthew - Question for Chapter 4, page 43

(view spoiler)[That comment is really Charles Hamilton Houston's credo. I think that Houston's comment about a lawyer being a social engineer or a parasite, simply put, meant that either a lawyer is in the business to defend principles and stand up for moral justice or they're just in it for the money. The difference between someone who really cares and an "ambulance chaser". I think that his comment could apply to any area of the law, really.

I think Jesus was pointing out to lawyers, when talking with the Pharisees, their greed. So I do think that Houston was thinking along the same lines. I think there are good lawyers that are passionate about upholding the law and making sure that people are getting due justice. Sadly, there are those that are more concerned with a "win", no matter what. I think we may see that attitude in many walks of life.

What is your take on this quote? Being a public defender, do you see lawyers that don't take the moral high road? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Good question Teri which hits the mark I think

[Matthew]

Teri wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Ch. 4, page 43 (BTW, would someone please tell me how to put this print in BOLD...)"

Matthew - to bold, use the html tag b. Just like you use the spoiler tag, just use the letter "..."

Response to Teri-Question for Chapter 4, page 43
(view spoiler)[Thanks, Teri, you're right that that was Houston's credo impressed upon Marshall. Sorry.
My take on the quote is how it applies to my own personal concern in my career that I not get involved in areas of the law that are about money-grabbing/ambulance-chasing. I'm not saying personal injury is always that way, but I can see how it can become that if you're not careful. The temptation in any job is to not watch the moral compass, so it's something we all struggle with I'm sure, to daily do right. The Florida Bar which regulates lawyers sees the worst of it, I am sure.

I guess the idea of the NAACP lawyers being social engineers goes back to the sub-title of the book, engineering the dawn of a new America. (hide spoiler)]

[Peter]

Responses to Questions 2 and 3

(view spoiler)[
2. What is the difference between prejudice and hate? Hate and fear? How are they depicted in the book?

Hate is much broader than prejudice and hate can be based on reason. Hate can also be legitimate opinion.

"I hate cream of mushroom soup" is not an example of prejudice.

Prejudice need not involve hate, either. There are some positive prejudices (e.g. All Jews are smart; all Asians are good at math).

Fear is again different. Prejudice may be based on fear and, in the book, the author posits that much of the prejudice against Blacks was based on fear of Blacks wanting equal rights and especially the right to marry Whites - but the problem with that is that, if there were no prejudice against Blacks to start with, there would be no fear of intermarriage.

3. How do you feel about the changing of focus between the chapters? Do you feel that you're getting to know Marshall as his career progresses?

I like the alternation; it keeps the flow while filling in the background. I wish there were more about Marshall's early years. "The child is father to the man" after all.

(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Peter

(view spoiler)[True Peter. I like your response on prejudice and hate.

I agree - there is not a lot about Thurgood's father. I did post the Hollywood link about Thurgood - the play or movie (whatever it was) and that is quite good - and I am not entirely sure of the factual representation of what was depicted - but Thurgood (the actor depicting Thurgood) did go into some stories about his father. (hide spoiler)]

[Tomi]

I enjoy King's style of writing. Very vivid and clear. I am finding it hard to read the book though - I have to put it down every so often because it is so disturbing.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I know - I do not think we can fathom what went on.

[Peter]

Tomi wrote: "I enjoy King's style of writing. Very vivid and clear. I am finding it hard to read the book though - I have to put it down every so often because it is so disturbing."

What makes it easier for me to read it is knowledge that things have changed - although not enough.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Indeed Peter.

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "

Response to Matthew - Question for Chapter 4, page 43 / Book Title

(view spoiler)[Very nice connection to the title, that I had not picked up on. I suppose one could say "Thurgood Marshall: Standing up for a new America". The title though, is much more cleaver, don't you think? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

1. Mink Slide - Discussion Questions - Lloyd Kennedy and William Pillow Verdict

(view spoiler)[In the last section of chapter 1 - Mink Slide, the trial of Lloyd Kennedy and William Pillow is decided. Both men are acquitted.

1. As Marshall, Looby, and Weaver heard the verdicts read for both men, they stayed silent. The author mentions that Marshall did not want any celebratory outbursts due to safety concerns. They stayed silent, yet there was a near lynching. Had the verdicts turned out to be guilty, what do you think the outcome would have been? Do you think that the town residents would have come after Marshall anyway?

2. It turned out that Magistrate Jim Pogue was on duty that night when they brought in Marshall for drunk driving. Pogue did the right thing and stood up to the town's lynch mob. Do you think it was coincidence that Pogue was on duty that night? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Tomi wrote: "I enjoy King's style of writing. Very vivid and clear. I am finding it hard to read the book though - I have to put it down every so often because it is so disturbing."

I agree, Tomi. Very engaging. It leaves no doubt to how tense the feeling was throughout the south.

[Matthew]

Curious, is there anyone one here discussing this book who lives in a country other than the USA? Just curious of your perspective "from the outside looking in."

[Matthew]

Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion - Prologue - page 2 - Additional Quotes for Discussion

Quote for discussion: His wife, Buster, unable to bear the children he longed for, had one year for his birthday given ..."

Response to Bentley's message 53, question 4e
"How do you feel about affirmative action? Do you feel that it is necessary in our society to give an "under class" breaks which we need to become or stay a diversified and democratic society or do you feel that affirmative action unfairly disadvantages whites?"

We've all talked about how the environment you're raised in affects your outlook on other races or whether you even consider them as "other" than you. I grew up in a time/place where affirmative action was frowned upon and seen as unfair to whites, and I probably imbibed a lot of that outlook. In the last few years of my reading on slavery/civil rights I have come to see affirmative action as a necessary "evil" which was a necessary by-product of the evil of state-supported chattel slavery here in the US. I see it as tied into the issue of slavery "reparations" to African Americans, an issue which is still occasionally brought up even today. Reparations were considered and shot down in Congress during Reconstruction. Personally, I think that was a great wrong. Consequently, African Americans have largely been relegated to the "lower class," economically-speaking.

[Tim]

Matthew wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion - Prologue - page 2 - Additional Quotes for Discussion

Quote for discussion: His wife, Buster, unable to bear the children he longed for, had one year for his..."

Ah very interesting Matthew. I had a co-worker in College who graduated before I did. He came back to visit and I got a chance to hear a bit of what he was up to. He is a Caucasian male, graduated our school in Pre-Med and he was preparing for Medical school. I didn't hear the whole conversation but he made a comment about not being able to get into his first choice Medical School because they had already met their quota and such. (I'm not entirely sure how it works)

But in that aspect that did sound a little unfair on his end.

[Matthew]

Tim wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion - Prologue - page 2 - Additional Quotes for Discussion

Quote for discussion: His wife, Buster, unable to bear the children he longed for, had ..."

Yes, Tim, and I guess I would admit affirmative action as an "evil" and unfair thing, but the response would perhaps be that it isn't half as unfair as slavery was or as the failure to stand up for African-American civil rights was between the Civil War and the the mid-1900's. Affirmative action would perhaps be a lot less necessary today if we hadn't lost the chance for earlier progress in their socio-economic situation and earlier pursuit of equal opportunity. What was worse: state-sanctioned slavery or state failure to follow through on its promises to African-Americans after the Civil War? To me they are both deplorable and require redress. (Sorry, don't mean to sound so strident; thanks for the good conversation).

[Pamela]

Couldn't get here sooner and I have been reading the posts to catch up and they are extremely interesting from everyone. I am always surprised (and pleased) when I see so many people younger than I who have no memory of the racial troubles and incidents of the South that I grew up in. Who can't, in fact, understand how these things could happen. It is an indication of how very far we've come. There is still a lot of work to do because the prejudice that exists to day is insidious. It is not overt as it was during the time this book discusses but it is still very much a part of our society.

I was about 7 at the time of Brown vs. the Board of Ed. and remember a great deal of the civil rights movement in the South and many of the horrible incidents of violence that took place. I grew up in Memphis and, later, in Atlanta and the very first trip my father ever took me on was to Little Rock so he could show me first hand what was going on and to see Federal Troops in the South for the first time since Reconstruction. He told me to never forget it and I haven't. He was in favor of Eisenhower's action but you have no idea how controversial it was. So Thurgood Marshall was much talked about in my house, at least. I had never heard of the Oakland boys before reading this book, but there were many incidents like it and the circumstances did not surprise me.

Someone wondered here if everyone in the South participated or did nothing. There has always been a dedicated amount of people, white and black, from the South who have worked hard to promote peaceful integration and toleration. If you would like to read more about the history of this part, I highly recommend Speak Now Against the Day.

I have also added a link to the Equal Justice Iniative with a timeline of racial incidents that is very interesting. It's on the spoiler pages.

by John Egerton(no photo)

Equal Justice Iniative http://eji.org/

[Tim]

Matthew wrote: "Tim wrote: "Matthew wrote: "Bentley wrote: "Prologue - Discussion - Prologue - page 2 - Additional Quotes for Discussion

Quote for discussion: His wife, Buster, unable to bear the children he long..."

I see what you mean. So Affirmative Action would be a way for America to redeem itself for a past failure.

I take no offense, I know so little about this topic that I'm neutral on it. I was only commenting with story of someone I know.

But out of curiosity, do you believe Affirmative Action is still necessary today?

[Teri]

Affirmative Action

Good points, everyone. I echo what has been said. I think it is at times a thin, sticky line. Unfortunately, there are times / areas where Affirmative Action helps those that are qualified for a job / college spot, etc. get a foot in the door and would be turned away because the bosses or higher ups are prejudice against someone due to race / color / creed. However, there are times where a Caucasian person is not considered, who is the best qualified, has the best college portfolio, but the business / school has to fulfill the Affirmative Action ratio.

Questions:

1. To Matthew's comments, does Affirmative Action right the wrongs of the past?

2. Is it OK that Affirmative Action contradicts notions of meritocracy?

[Teri]

Pamela wrote: "Couldn't get here sooner and I have been reading the posts to catch up and they are extremely interesting from everyone. I am always surprised (and pleased) when I see so many people younger than I..."

Welcome, Pamela. Glad to see you here. Thank you for your perspective to the issue. On your trip to Little Rock, was it for a rally or event, or was it just a trip and you encountered Federal Troops in the area to keep peace?

It seems like we have come a long way (baby) since those days, and yet, there is still so much prejudice out there. Not just for Black people but for people of other color, for women, for religious and political beliefs, and sexual orientation.

[Teri]

2. Sugar Hill - Discussion Questions - page 28

(view spoiler)[Quote from page 28:

"In this 1944 case, Smith vs. Allwright, involving an all-white primary, the U. S. Supreme Court justices voted 8-1 in Marshall's favor, ruling that blacks 'cannot be legally barred from voting in the Texas Democratic primaries.' One Spingarn Medal Award Committee member noted that Marshall's work in the case 'brought about the most beneficial results for the Negro since Emancipation.'"

1. This case was specific to Texas, but what widespread benefits would/could come as a result of this precedent?
2. How did this case play a pivotal role in Marshall's career?

More information on Smith v. Allwright:



In Smith v. Allwright, Thurgood Marshall rose in front of the United States Supreme Court to argue that Texas’s Democratic primary system allowed whites to structurally dominate the politics of the one-party South.

Specifically, the case presented the question of whether the Texas Democratic Party’s policy of prohibiting Blacks from voting in primary elections violated the Fourteenth and Fifteenth Amendments.

The Supreme Court held that it did, explaining that:

The United States is a constitutional democracy.

Its organic law grants to all citizens a right to participate in the choice of elected officials without restriction by any state because of race. This grant to the people of the opportunity for choice is not to be nullified by a state through casting its electoral process in a form which permits a private organization to practice racial discrimination in the election.

In so ruling, Smith overruled a unanimous nine year old decision in Grovey v. Townsend that held that the Texas Democratic Party’s race-based restrictions on voting in primaries was constitutional because it was not state action, and thus it had not been endorsed or authorized by the state.

The implications of Smith had far-reaching effects on race relations in the South.

It was the watershed in the struggle for Black rights, and it signaled the beginning of the Second Reconstruction and the modern civil rights movement. The political and social advances of Blacks simply could not have occurred without the changes that came in the wake of the overthrow of the Democratic white primary.

Marshall characterized the ruling of Smith, which he considered his most important case, as “so clear and free of ambiguity” that the right of Blacks to participate in primaries was established “once and for all.”

African-American voter registration vastly improved immediately following the Court’s ruling in Smith, causing Marshall to recognize the case as “a giant milestone in the progress of Negro Americans toward full citizenship.”

Within just a couple of years huge changes took place. The number of Southern blacks registered to vote rose to between 700,000 and 800,000 by 1948 and then to one million by 1952.

At the same time, Marshall cautioned that the work of ridding the country of racial discrimination in voting and other areas was not complete and foreshadowed the ruling in Brown v. Board of Education:

The collapse of the white Democratic primary, despite fond hopes, has not resulted in full participation by all in the political life of the South. But the story of the struggle to overcome this barrier is particularly meaningful today. For, if nothing else, it indicates the fate which awaits the ‘legal means’ which some of the Southern states have drafted to preserve segregated schools.

Source: NAACPLDF.org (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

2. Sugar Hill - More Discussion Questions

(view spoiler)[In this chapter Marshall's long work hours and health were discussed, along with his home life.

1. What effects did Marshall's work life have on his relationships with his wife Buster, his co-workers, and his health?

2. On page 32, Walter White talks about the Columbia, Tennessee trial and is quoted as saying in his autobiography, "It is doubtful whether any other trial in the history of America was ever conducted under more explosive conditions..." What characteristics in Marshall made him successful in these cases? (hide spoiler)]

[Jovita]

My Week One Questions Responses
(view spoiler)[1. How much do you know about Thurgood Marshall prior to reading this book? The Groveland Four case?

I didn’t know much about Marshall at all, apart from the fact that he pled the case of Brown v. the Board of Education before SCOTUS, and that he was the first African American Supreme Court Justice. Likewise, I had never heard of the Groveland Four case at all.

2. What is the difference between prejudice and hate? Hate and fear? How are they depicted in the book?

In my opinion, the difference between prejudice and hate is choice. Whereas prejudice can be born from ignorance, a lack of exposure to different cultures and communities, or an overexposure to hateful views and attitudes, hate is a deliberate choice to refuse to see the humanity in others, and to purposefully despise others who are different. It is a conscious effort to deny any evidence supporting a viewpoint or truth other than that which is in agreement with one’s own. Fear, most often times, is borne from prejudice, a lack of knowledge of something or someone which is different from oneself, and is shaped by the stereotypes and misconceptions presented by the dominant culture. I feel that the book exposes a level of hate that was frankly very disturbing to me and very difficult to read at times. The description of seemingly otherwise competent, sane people blatantly disregarding obvious truths about the innocence of black defendants, the steadfast refusal to acknowledge that a black person could be telling the truth and that a white person could be lying, and the utter disgust that some people had for African Americans and their desire for basic civil rights, is unfathomable to me.

3. How do you feel about the changing of focus between the chapters? Do you feel that you're getting to know Marshall as his career progresses?

The changing of focus between chapters does make it a little harder for me to organize the events into a linear timeline in my head. I do find myself flipping back and forth a lot to figure out the actual sequence of events. However, I do feel that I am getting to know Marshall in a more personal way. Again, I knew very little about Marshall as a young man going into this group read, so the idea of him telling off-color jokes, and getting drunk at Harlem rent-parties is a huge departure from the image of the aged, stately figure in flowing black Justice robes that I grew up with as a kid. This is a much more human look at Marshall as a man as opposed to a figurehead. (hide spoiler)]

[Pamela]

Teri wrote: "Pamela wrote: "Couldn't get here sooner and I have been reading the posts to catch up and they are extremely interesting from everyone. I am always surprised (and pleased) when I see so many people..."

Teri, my father was a traveling salesman and his work took him all over the South. I would go with him several times a year, esp. if he thought the trip would be fun and/or educational for me. The trip to Little Rock was around 1957 and the Federal Troops had been sent in to protect the "Little Rock Nine" as they integrated Central High School. The attempt at integrating caused such nasty behavior and rioting around the school which the State did not, or could not, control that Pres. Eisenhower finally made the decison to federalize the Nat'l Guard in an attempt to calm things down and protect the Black students. Both the integration and the federalization were very controversial and the cause of heated discussion all over the South. My father , I think wanted me to learn something both about governing in a democracy and toleration.

[Teri]

Jovita wrote: "My Week One Questions Responses"

Response to Jovita - Week One Questions

Hi Jovita. We are happy to have you join us.

(view spoiler)[Well stated on the differences between prejudice / hate and fear. And to expand on the fear topic, I think what happened (happens still today?) is that some people are thought of as being prejudice, when they are just scared to stand up against racists / bullies. They are fearful of their own repercussions so they stay silent or agree with those around them. I'll be curious if we see an instance of that in the book.

I do like these books where we get to see the human side of a person. We tend to set people like Marshall on a pedestal and forget that they were people too and needed to cut loose sometimes. Does this portrait of Marshall change your view of him?

BTW - I came across some "calling card" invitations of rent parties online. Here's a couple:



(hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Response to Tim and Teri re: Affirmative Action
1. Is it still necessary? -Tim
2. Does it right the wrongs of the past? -Teri
3. Does it go against the idea of meritocracy? -Teri

1. IF affirmative action is an effective answer to the wrongs of the past (see next question) either as redemption for the country or reparations to the descendants of slaves, then I think yes there are still vast discrepancies nationwide in the opportunities/education/job prospects for African Americans.
2. So, is it effective at righting those wrongs? On a small scale, yes. The other attorney in my rural law office is African American and benefited from affirmative action in getting into a good school where she was able to excel. But what has been done so far seems like a drop in the bucket. I know we'll never eradicate poverty, but if some whites have to go without in order to help raise up people who had to start from the bottom long ago, in slavery, then it seems "worth it" and an appropriate price to pay. I know it seems quite unfair in a meritocracy, but I see this as addressing a wrong perpetrated by the government in most states and by the federal government. I wish real monetary reparations had been made to the freed slaves when efforts would've been a lot more manageable, but now it is probably too expensive to do anything significant across the board for African Americans.
3. So I agree it certainly goes against a meritocracy and would be "unfair" to those shut out of merited positions, but it seems like an appropriate penance for the past, at least on a small scale.

[Matthew]

Teri wrote: "2. Sugar Hill - More Discussion Questions

In this chapter Marshall's long work hours and health were discussed, along with his home life.

1. What effects did Marshall's work life have on his rela..."

Welcome, Jovita. Re: Week One, Question 2
(view spoiler)[I've been holding off on that second question about the difference between prejudice and hate, hate and fear. I wanted to think about it some, but your answer, Jovita, was great. You seem to have thoughtfully considered the origins of basic prejudice, something we all have, as opposed to the purposeful cultivation of hate. And then fear arises from the lies we tell ourselves about others.

So here's a twist, everyone. How much of the hate and spiteful actions we read about in this book is maybe due to economic fears related to scarcity of jobs/resources, so that if people can be excluded wholesale from the market economy based on something like race, then why not cultivate further hate and prejudice to keep a distance between "us" and "them" and leave more of the jobs/resources for us? In his book American Slavery, American Freedom, Edmund S. Morgan makes the point that indentured white servants were just as despised then during the early years of Europeans in America as blacks later became as slaves. Again, economics being the driver, not necessarily race. Do people just look for an excuse to subjugate others?
by Edmund S. Morgan (hide spoiler)]