ARCHIVE - APRIL 2016 - Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America by Gilbert King

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

This is the thread for the discussion of the April 2016 - Book of the Month - Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America by Gilbert King.

by Gilbert King

Pulitzer Prize Winner - General Non Fiction - 2013 - and Voted Best Books of 2012 by the Boston Globe, the Christian Science Monitor, Barnes and Noble and the Library Journal.

About the Author:



Gilbert King is the author of Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America, which was awarded the Pulitzer Prize in 2013. A New York Times bestseller, the book was also named runner-up for the Dayton Literary Peace Prize for non-fiction and was nominated for an Edgar Award for Best Fact Crime.

Gilbert King

King is originally from Schenectady, New York. He has written about Supreme Court history and the death penalty for the New York Times and the Washington Post, and he is a featured contributor to Smithsonian magazine and The Marshall Project. His earlier book, The Execution of Willie Francis was published in 2008. He lives in New York City with his wife, two daughters, and a French Bulldog named Louis.

by Gilbert King

Note: A special spoiler GLOSSARY thread has been set up for all articles, web pages, videos, interviews which relate to this book that are not already featured videos. This way we can keep this non spoiler discussion thread relatively free of sundry postings related to sundry information. There is so much here that we need the spoiler thread to not impact the topic questions and conversation. However, if you do not like spoilers - then do not visit the glossary spoiler thread until after you finish the book - it is up to you.

Here is the link:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

PRAISE

“Superb.” — Junot Diaz, author of This Is How You Lose Her

“A powerful and well-told drama of Southern injustice.” — The Chicago Tribune

“This story about four young black men who were accused of the rape of a white woman in Lake County, Fla., in 1949 — and what the local sheriff and his cronies, who were itching for a lynching, got away with — is a must-read, cannot-put-down history.”
— Thomas Friedman, New York Times

“Devil in the Grove is a compelling look at the case that forged Thurgood Marshall’s perception of himself as a crusader for civil rights. . . . King’s style [is] at once suspenseful and historically meticulous” — Christian Science Monitor

“Recreates an important yet overlooked moment in American history with a chilling, atmospheric narrative that reads more like a Southern Gothic novel than a work of history.” — Salon

“A taut, intensely readable narrative.” — Boston Globe

“The story’s drama and pathos make it a page-turner, but King’s attention to detail, fresh material, and evenhanded treatment of the villains make it a worthy contribution to the history of the period, while offering valuable insight into Marshall’s work and life.” — Publishers Weekly

“A thoroughgoing study of one of the most important civil-rights cases argued by Thurgood Marshall in dismantling Jim Crow strictures. . . . Deeply researched and superbly composed.”
— Kirkus Reviews

“A compelling chronicle.” — Booklist

“Gripping. . . . Lively and multidimensional.” — Dallas Morning News

“The tragic Groveland saga -- with its Faulknerian echoes of racial injustice spinning around an accusation of rape -- comes astonishingly alive in Gilbert King’s narrative. It is both heartbreaking and unforgettable.”
— Will Haygood, author of King of the Cats: The Life and Times of Adam Clayton Powell Jr.

“In the terrifying story of the Groveland boys Gilbert King recreates an extraordinary moment in America’s long, hard struggle for racial justice. Devil in the Grove is a harrowing, haunting, utterly mesmerizing book.”
— Kevin Boyle, author of Arc of Justice: A Saga of Race, Civil Rights, and Murder in the Jazz Age

“Gilbert King’s gut-wrenching, and captivating, narrative is civil rights literature at its best--meticulously researched, brilliantly written, and singularly focused on equal justice for all.”
— Michael G. Long, author of Marshalling Justice: The Early Civil Rights Letters of Thurgood Marshall

“This is a haunting and compelling story, one of many in the campaign for racial justice. . . . This book is important because it is disturbing. And in that regard we cannot walk away from the story it tells.” — Phyllis Vine, author of One Man's Castle

“Gilbert King has done a remarkable job of weaving together history, sociology, law and detective work of his own, to reveal facts that even I, one of the defense counsel in the case, had not been aware of until now.” — Jack Greenberg, Alphonse Fletcher Professor of Law, Columbia University, former Director-Counsel, NAACP Legal Defense Fund

“[An] excellent book on a little known and horrifying incident in which four young black men were rounded up and accused of raping a white woman, readers cannot help but be awed by the bravery of those who took a stand in the late 1940s and early 1950s.”
— San Francisco Chronicle

“Its rich case history captures the beginning of the end of the most extreme forms of racism. . . . Very few books combine this depth of research and narrative power about a subject of such pivotal significance.”
— Ira Katznelson, author of When Affirmative Action Was White and a former president of the American Political Science Association

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Synopsis:

Devil in the Grove, winner of the Pulitzer Prize for general nonfiction, is a gripping true story of racism, murder, rape, and the law. It brings to light one of the most dramatic court cases in American history, and offers a rare and revealing portrait of Thurgood Marshall that the world has never seen before.

As Isabel Wilkerson’s The Warmth of Other Suns did for the story of America’s black migration, Gilbert King’s Devil in the Grove does for this great untold story of American legal history, a dangerous and uncertain case from the days immediately before Brown v. Board of Education in which the young civil rights attorney Marshall risked his life to defend a boy slated for the electric chair—saving him, against all odds, from being sentenced to death for a crime he did not commit.

More:

Devil in the Grove is the winner of the 2013 Pulitzer Prize for General Nonfiction.

Arguably the most important American lawyer of the twentieth century, Thurgood Marshall was on the verge of bringing the landmark suit Brown v. Board of Education before the U.S. Supreme Court when he became embroiled in an explosive and deadly case that threatened to change the course of the civil rights movement and cost him his life.

In 1949, Florida’s orange industry was booming, and citrus barons got rich on the backs of cheap Jim Crow labor. To maintain order and profits, they turned to Willis V. McCall, a violent sheriff who ruled Lake County with murderous resolve.

When a white seventeen-year-old Groveland girl cried rape, McCall was fast on the trail of four young blacks who dared to envision a future for themselves beyond the citrus groves. By day’s end, the Ku Klux Klan had rolled into town, burning the homes of blacks to the ground and chasing hundreds into the swamps, hell-bent on lynching the young men who came to be known as “the Groveland Boys.”

And so began the chain of events that would bring Thurgood Marshall, the man known as “Mr. Civil Rights,” into the deadly fray.

Associates thought it was suicidal for him to wade into the “Florida Terror” at a time when he was irreplaceable to the burgeoning civil rights movement, but the lawyer would not shrink from the fight—not after the Klan had murdered one of Marshall’s NAACP associates involved with the case and Marshall had endured continual threats that he would be next.

Drawing on a wealth of never-before-publisheIsabel Wilkersond material, including the FBI’s unredacted Groveland case files, as well as unprecedented access to the NAACP’s Legal Defense Fund files, King shines new light on this remarkable civil rights crusader, setting his rich and driving narrative against the heroic backdrop of a case that U.S. Supreme Court justice Robert Jackson decried as “one of the best examples of one of the worst menaces to American justice.”

by

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

KIRKUS REVIEW:

https://www.kirkusreviews.com/book-re...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Remember the following:

Everyone is welcome but make sure to use the goodreads spoiler function.

If you come to the discussion after folks have finished reading it, please feel free to post your comments as we will always come back to the thread to discuss the book.

The rules

You must follow the rules of the History Book Club and also:

First rule of Book of the Month:
Respect other people's opinions, no matter how controversial you think they may be.

Second rule of Buddy Read:
Always, always Chapter/page mark and spoiler alert your posts if you are discussing parts of the book.

To do these spoilers, follows these easy steps:

Step 1. enclose the word spoiler in forward and back arrows; < >

Step 2. write your spoiler comments in

Step 3. enclose the word /spoiler in arrows as above, BUT NOTE the forward slash in front of the word. You must put that forward slash in.

Your spoiler should appear like this:
(view spoiler)

And please mark your spoiler clearly like this:

State a Chapter and page if you can.
EG: Chapter 24, page 154

Or say Up to Chapter *___ (*insert chapter number) if your comment is more broad and not from a single chapter.

Chapter 1, p. 23
(view spoiler)[I know everything now about chapter one and I am going to post it here - oops I better place this in a spoiler alert so I do not ruin the book for others (hide spoiler)]

If you are raising a question/issue for the group about the book, you don't need to put that in a spoiler, but if you are citing something specific, it might be good to use a spoiler.

By using spoilers, you don't ruin the experience of someone who is reading slower or started later.

Thanks.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

You can copy and paste below to get your spoiler right:

<spoiler>Put Text Here</spoiler>

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

TABLE OF CONTENTS

PROLOGUE 1

| 1 | MINK SLIDE 7
| 2 | SUGAR HILL 21
| 3 | GET TO PUSHIN' 33
| 4 | NIGGER IN A PIT 46
| 5 | TROUBLE FIXIN TO START 58
| 6 | A LITTLE BOLITA 72
| 7 | WIPE THIS PLACE CLEAN 84
| 8 | A CHRISTMAS CARD 100
| 9 | DON'T SHOOT, WHITE MAN 113
| 10 | QUITE A HOSE WIELDER 124
| 11 | BAD EGG 150
| 12 | ATOM SMASHER 178
| 13 | IN ANY FIGHT SOME FALL 193
| 14 | THIS IS A RAPE CASE 210
| 15 | YOU HAVE PISSED IN MY WHISKEY 219
| 16 | IT'S A FUNNY THING 240
| 17 | NO MAN ALIVE OR TO BE BORN 258
| 18 | ALL OVER THE PLACE, LIKE RATS 273
| 19 | PRIVATE PARTS 283
| 20 | A GENIUS HERE BEFORE US 303
| 21 | THE COLORED WAY 321
| 22 | A PLACE IN THE SUN 331

EPILOGUE 353
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS 362
A NOTE ON SOURCES 366
NOTES 368
SELECTED BIBLIOGRAPHY 413
INDEX 417

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Those of you who are going to read THE DEVIL IN THE GROVE. Use the spoiler html because this is a single thread discussion.

1. Read message FIVE and that message shows you the rules for the buddy read discussion and how to do the spoiler html.

2. Message 6 actually shows you the spoiler html code. Use it on this thread.

3. Where is the Table of Contents? - Message 7.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

We will be open for discussion on April 1st, 2016 - since this is a one thread discussion if your responses to any of the questions include spoilers - please use the spoiler html.

If there are general discussions that are not being discussed in the book - of course the spoiler html does not have to be used. But if we are discussing elements or story line then of course it does.

Always put in bold above the spoiler the section of the book you are describing - the how to's are described in message 5. The table of contents can be found in message 7.

Also, to not disrupt the flow of the discussion:

All, we do not have to do citations regarding the book or the author being discussed during the book discussion on these discussion threads - nor do we have to cite any personage in the book being discussed while on the discussion threads related to this book.

However if we discuss folks outside the scope of the book or another book is cited which is not the book and author discussed then we do have to do that citation according to our citation rules. That makes it easier to not disrupt the discussion.

So let us dig in and discuss a very interesting and complex subject on Civil Rights, Thurgood Marshall, and the Groveland Saga. This should be an interesting read which will foster much discussion and debate.

Just remember that the conversation at the HBC is always civil and respectful of group members, the author and the book we are discussing. We can disagree without being disagreeable and we should be able to have a lot of fun with our discussion.

We look forward to reading your posts.

Regards,

Bentley

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

FOR THOSE WHO WOULD LIKE A SUGGESTED WEEKLY SYLLABUS

APRIL 1ST THROUGH APRIL 10TH

PROLOGUE 1

| 1 | MINK SLIDE 7
| 2 | SUGAR HILL 21
| 3 | GET TO PUSHIN' 33
| 4 | NIGGER IN A PIT 46
| 5 | TROUBLE FIXIN TO START 58

APRIL 11TH THROUGH APRIL 17TH

| 6 | A LITTLE BOLITA 72
| 7 | WIPE THIS PLACE CLEAN 84
| 8 | A CHRISTMAS CARD 100
| 9 | DON'T SHOOT, WHITE MAN 113
| 10 | QUITE A HOSE WIELDER 124
| 11 | BAD EGG 150

APRIL 18TH THROUGH APRIL 24TH

| 12 | ATOM SMASHER 178
| 13 | IN ANY FIGHT SOME FALL 193
| 14 | THIS IS A RAPE CASE 210
| 15 | YOU HAVE PISSED IN MY WHISKEY 219
| 16 | IT'S A FUNNY THING 240
| 17 | NO MAN ALIVE OR TO BE BORN 258

APRIL 25TH THROUGH MAY 1ST

| 18 | ALL OVER THE PLACE, LIKE RATS 273
| 19 | PRIVATE PARTS 283
| 20 | A GENIUS HERE BEFORE US 303
| 21 | THE COLORED WAY 321
| 22 | A PLACE IN THE SUN 331

EPILOGUE 353
ACKNOWLEDGEMENTS 362
A NOTE ON SOURCES 366
NOTES 368
SELECTED BIBLIOGRAPHY 413
INDEX 417

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

[Teri]

Welcome everyone. April 1st has arrived and we are kicking off our next Book of The Month read. Devil in the Grove: Thurgood Marshall, the Groveland Boys, and the Dawn of a New America looks to be an informative read. Although Thurgood Marshall is a name I recognize, I know little about him and his work. I'm looking forward to discussing this book with the group.

This weekend and next week's reading will cover the prologue and chapters 1-5, so you'll have plenty of time to jump in and get started. I've posted chapter summaries/overview below, along with some questions to get us started. Francie will be helping me moderate this month. She moderates the Civil Rights and Supreme Court folders, so I know she'll bring a great perspective to the discussion.

Please jump in and introduce yourself. The questions are to get the conversation started, but feel free to post your thoughts and comments on the book. I am looking forward to reading everyone's comments.

[Teri]

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

(view spoiler)[Prologue

We begin with the prologue that gives the reader a little background and look at the character of Thurgood Marshall, a 6'2" tall black man who is an attorney for the NAACP in the mid-40s.


Photo of a young Thurgood Marshall (standing left) with a seated and writing Charles Hamilton Houston (far right) at Howard University (Maryland State Archives)

1 - Mink Slide

In chapter one the reader learns more about Marshall and the attorneys that he worked with at the NAACP. The author takes a look at the riots and culture in the south in the mid to late 40s and covers the 1946 Columbia Riot trial that Marshall argues. The Columbia Riot took place in the Mink Slide (aka The Bottom) area of Columbia, Tennessee, where racial tensions were very high. After the trial is finished, Marshall is arrested on his way out of town.


Source: www.tn4me.org

2 - Sugar Hill

Chapter two takes place in the Sugar Hill area of New York.
The reader is introduced to Charles Hamilton Houston, Marshall’s mentor, as well as Marshall's wife, Vivian “Buster” Burey. The author discusses Thurgood and Buster's life in Harlem where they lived at 409 Edgecombe, the “elite side” of Harlem. Marshall is awarded the Spingarn Medal. Marshall becomes sick with an unexplained virus.


409 Edgecombe Avenue. www.realestatesalesnyc.com

3 - Get to Pushin'

In chapter three, the reader is introduced to Willie and Norma Padgett in Groveland, FL. They are a young couple who have a tumultuous relationship. They go out for a night together and while driving, their car has problems. Two young, black army soldiers, Samuel Shepherd and Walter Irvin, happen by and stop to help Willie and Norma. Willie accepts the help but becomes belligerent, and is eventually knocked out by the soldiers.


Willie Padgett - http://www.gilbertking.com/DevilInThe...

4 - Nigger in a Pit

Chapter four covers Marshall's early days working for the NAACP and the growing separation between he and his wife. Several early cases are discussed including the Joseph Spell rape case and the W. D. Lyon’s case in Oklahoma.


Charles Hamilton Houston - www.naacp-waukesha.org

5 - Trouble Fixin to Start

In chapter five the author recounts the morning after Willie and Norma Padgett’s car had broken down. Norma was found walking on the road into a local town. Samuel Shepherd and Walter Irvin were picked up by police when Willie and Norma accuse them of raping Norma. Charles Greenlee and his friend Ernest Thomas are also picked up, but have nothing to do with the situation. The police keep a riot from happening. NAACP employee Walter White has an affair.


Walter Irvin, Charles Greenlee, Samuel Shepherd - www.miamiherald.com (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Week 1 Questions
(view spoiler)[
1. How much do you know about Thurgood Marshall prior to reading this book? The Groveland Four case?

2. What is the difference between prejudice and hate? Hate and fear? How are they depicted in the book?

3. How do you feel about the changing of focus between the chapters? Do you feel that you're getting to know Marshall as his career progresses? (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Just a quick reminder - for those joining us for any single thread discussion - on this thread you have to use the spoiler html for your responses and discussion so as not to "spoil" the book for somebody posting later.

You do not have to use the spoiler html on the spoiler thread associated with this book - but on this one you do.

This is the spoiler thread link where we will be adding ancillary information which will augment your reading of the book:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Always place what the spoiler is about - whether the chapter number or title or that this is a response to a question: place the subject heading in bold above the spoiler text as I have done here as an example.

If you are unfamiliar as to how to do that - we are here to help and the first step is to look at posts 5 and 6 which make it really easy for you.

This discussion should be enlightening and enjoyable and I very much look forward to reading your posts. So let us begin - Teri is your moderator and Francie is the backup.

Response to question 1 - Week One Questions

(view spoiler)[Teri, Thurgood Marshall as a Supreme Court justice was somebody who I knew about and of course I was familiar with some of his cases. But I honestly am looking forward to learning more about his work with the NAACP and the kind of cases he took to protect the rights of minorities which really could have placed him in harm's way and from what I am learning actually did.

He seems to be a complicated fellow - and I had the sense that he was not a man that liked to be alone and valued his home life and family tremendously. I guess we will learn more about him now and I am looking forward to that. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

The book discussion is open - feel free to jump right in and begin.

[Teri]

Reply to Bentley - Question 1 / Week 1

(view spoiler)[Like you, I am interested in his work with the NAACP. You hear/read so much about racial issues (riots/activism) in the 50s and 60s, but not as much discussed about the 40s. It will be good to get this background. (hide spoiler)]

[Francie]

Response to question 1 - Week One Questions

(view spoiler)[I really didn't know much about Thurgood Marshall, except as a Supreme Court Justice and Brown v. BOE. As a matter of interest, I was in high school in Montgomery, AL, in the late '60s when the schools were finally integrated there. It was a tense period, but the school I was at transitioned well.

I was not familiar with the Groveland Four case. I'd like to read more on it, though. (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

I grew up in central Florida in the 70s/80s, and heard of the Scottsboro case in Alabama and the "Scottsboro Boys", but I never heard of the "Groveland Boys." I guess that that unfamiliarity and under-reporting is all part of the tragedy of the civil rights story...I'm really looking forward to my first bookclub discussion ever. Thanks for moderating it!

[Teri]

Reply to Francie - Question 1 / Week 1

(view spoiler)[I can only imagine the tension that was going on in the south at that time. I was too young in the 60s to remember much, more a child of the 70s so I was never exposed to the issues. But I heard stories. The little town my mom was from in rural Missouri apparently had a sign, similar to the one mentioned on page 15, telling blacks (using expletives) to not stop in town and keep going. Of course, I never saw it so I never really believed the story. While doing some local history research, I saw a picture of the sign, so I know it wasn't an urban myth.

I am sure there were issues in the area I grew up, but I wasn't exposed to them. It's hard to wrap your head around the prejudice, and yet, I know it still goes on. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Matthew wrote: "I grew up in central Florida in the 70s/80s, and heard of the Scottsboro case in Alabama and the "Scottsboro Boys", but I never heard of the "Groveland Boys." I guess that that unfamiliarity and un..."

Welcome, Matthew! We're glad you're joining us and hope this will be a positive first discussion for you.

I have heard of the Scottsboro Boys case, but know very little of the details. I am afraid there are likely hundreds of similar cases and most have gone "unnoticed" or are not discussed. You are right, it is the tragedy of the civil rights story.

[Francie]

Teri wrote: "Reply to Francie - Question 1 / Week 1

I can only imagine the tension that was going on in the south at that time. I was too young in the 60s to remember much, more a child of the 70s so I was nev..."

(view spoiler)[I lived on an Air Force Base at the time, and I was probably around 15. Of course, the Air Force didn't have segregated areas or facilities at that time. In fact, I didn't even know that there was a division in our races until I started going to school in Alabama. It's was a part of the culture there that I didn't understand or approve of. (hide spoiler)]

[Tomi]

I'm excited to get started! This book has been taunting me from my nightstand for a couple of weeks now! I live in central Arkansas and was a teenager during the 1960s. My focus wasn't on national events - too busy thinking about boys!- but I do have memories of how unsettled everything felt at the time. My cousins lived right across the street from Central High School in 1954. Family conversations often centered around integration and racial themes. I haven't heard of the Groveland Boys and am interested in new information.

[Teri]

Tomi wrote: "I'm excited to get started! This book has been taunting me from my nightstand for a couple of weeks now! I live in central Arkansas and was a teenager during the 1960s. My focus wasn't on national ..."

Hi Tomi! Glad you are joining us. This is certainly a subject that will be enlightening to us all. I think as youngsters, we rarely pay attention to national events unless they are close to home or affect our personal lives in some way. So grab your book off the nightstand and get to reading! ;-)

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Teri wrote: "Reply to Bentley - Question 1 / Week 1

[spoilers removed]"

I agree Teri - that is the part that seems to be missing and I hope we learn about that in this book.

[Samanta]

Hello everyone! I'll be joining you too. I got my hands on a copy of the book and plan to start reading it this weekend.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Wonderful Samanta - make sure to add your name to the event notification replying yes and we will send you the link so that you can always find the thread easily. I think this will be an excellent read and discussion

[Francie]

Welcome to the discussion, Samanta, Tomi, and Matthew. I think this will be a very interesting book and great discussion. Glad to have all of you with us.

[Samanta]

Bentley wrote: "Wonderful Samanta - make sure to add your name to the event notification replying yes and we will send you the link so that you can always find the thread easily. I think this will be an excellent ..."

Already done.

[Tim]

Question 1

(view spoiler)[

"the spirits of black citizens would be lifted with two words whispered in defiance and hope:
'Thurgood’s coming.'"

1. Before reading this book, the name Thurgood Marshall sounded familiar but I wasn't sure why. A quick google search told me that it was the Supreme Court (and Brown vs. Board of Education)

Reading the prologue you come across the "Groveland Boys", and this was brand new to me. I googled it and discovered, Bam! the cover photo for this History group is from this case (very cool).

I think the last few lines of the Prologue did a good job in setting the mood of the book.

I'm excited for this read.


(hide spoiler)]

[Francie]

Response to Tim, Question 1

Welcome to the discussion, Tim. So glad to have you join us.

(view spoiler)[I had also never heard of the Groveland case until reading about it here, and I think this quote may sum up the reasons why:

"Despite the fact that Marshall brought the Groveland case before the U.S. Supreme Court, it is barely mentioned in civil rights history, law texts, or the many biographies of Thurgood Marshall." (Prologue, page 3)

Those two lines you quoted are very apropos for the setting of the book. When you do quote from the book, please list the chapter and page number so that others can see the reference also. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Tim I agree with you - I had not heard much about the case either.

And I am glad that you like the coolness factor of my placing in the masthead - a photo depicting the case which we are reading about.

We are glad that you are reading and discussing the book with us.

The above that I have written is not a spoiler. What Francie is referring to is the wonderful quote that you posted.

It would be nice to always as a header placed in bold beside Question One which you did already place in bold - to add the chapter and page number so that other folks reading and discussing the book know what the spoiler is referencing before they launch it. That way there are no spoilers for folks coming along after you.

But you are fine with how you used the spoiler html and I wanted you to know that. Francie was giving you some great advice and tips.

Prologue - Page 3

(view spoiler)[Tim, were you surprised as was I that Thurgood had such importance and presence among black people - I certainly was having only heard of Malcolm X and Martin Luther King. It appears to me that without Thurgood playing by the rules and arguing the cases that he did and his legal prowess that none of the gains made by King or Malcolm X would have been possible. Thurgood knew that he could win with the law. And he did. He really knew how to win lawfully and in doing so - won the greatest victories for minorities - more I think than King and Malcolm X - yet because of their rhetoric - they are actually known more nowadays. And you are right - I was also not well versed about the Groveland case but well versed about Brown vs Board of Education. I don't think I know that much about Thurgood Marshall from the NAACP days at all or when he argued any of these cases. So we will all be learning together. (hide spoiler)]

[Tim]

Bentley and Francis,

My apologies, still trying to get that down.

Prologue - Page 3 -- Chapter 1

(view spoiler)[

Hmm, I know so little about Thurgood that almost everything is new to me.

I finished reading: "The Nine" by Jeffrey Toobin" not too long ago, Toobin mentioned Thurgood a few times I believe, but the name didn't stick.

Segregation, the KKK, all this is history that I've never really had a chance to get into. Everything I've learned until now has been almost in passing. I'm going to have to google a lot of the names and events I come across haha.

Chapter 1 also gave us a gruesome picture of the KKK. I don't know too much about them, but Gilbert King narrates in a way that i'm fearing for my own life. It's a terrible thing to live life with that kind of fear.

That leads me to a quick question: why were people able to get away with lynching during this time? I mean, it seems that Thurgood manages to use the law to bring certain people to justice. But during the shootout in Mink Slide City (?) even the State Guard stood by and didn't do anything.

The only explanation I can think of is: Everyone in the city was involved in the racism, even the authorities, that there was no one left to report to.


(hide spoiler)]

[Christopher]

Response to Week 1 Questions and Comments


(view spoiler)[Q1) My knowledge of Thurgood Marshall was limited to knowing that he was a Supreme Court Justice. I joined this month's read to learn more about him.
Q3) I think the jumping back and forth between chapters is allowing me to learn more about Thurgood and also learn more about some of the incidents he was involved with. I find that the last chapter for this week (#5) has really gained my attention so hopefully I don't try and so quickly through the chapters on his background.

Some other comments:
1) There was one section where they talked about castrating a man before lynching him. I hadn't realized some of these lynching involved those types of things. Lynching is bad enough but torturing someone like that makes it even worse. It puts other forms of torture done by other groups/countries in our modern day in perspective for me.

2) Sounds like Thurgood liked his bourbon and got himself into trouble sometimes with it! Like a lot of our past American leaders, he would probably have a hard time making it as high as he did in our government today as that would probably be brought to light. Too bad we know limit ourselves a lot of time to those whose appearance is squeaky clean.

(hide spoiler)]

[Christopher]

Reply to Tim
(view spoiler)[ Hi Tim, I was thinking the same thing, how could so many officials, and officials at different levels of government, turn a blind eye to this. After reading thru Chapter 5 and the writing on the Sheriff who stands up to the lynch mob at the jail, I'm starting to get the feeling that there was a sizable amount of people who remained silent. I'm not sure if I would want to face down that angry mob. If I recall correctly, I believe some of the local residents thanked him for standing up against the mob. That was one brave sheriff in my opinion. Maybe later in the book we'll learn more on how many people in the region agreed with the assaults against the blacks and the lynchings. (hide spoiler)]

[Jim]

Pages 1-48 Chapters 1-5 Like others, I know some scatter information about Thurgood Marshall and his work in the Civil Rights Movement. However, I have never read a book about him and his work. I am looking forward to reading this book and our discussion. A few things (some minor and some more important) surprised me:
(view spoiler)[
1. How much of the racial tension in the South was related to sex and rape.
2. How large the NAACP was at that time an how many lawyers they had working with them.
3. I never knew that some of the nightclubs were too expensive for African Americans to take advantage of the clubs and the music.
4. I had never hear of "rent parties."

I didn't realize how much emphasis Marshall put on setting presidents in cases. This slowly chipped at the laws and decisions of the courts. Also, during his travels, he was taking pictures and movies of white and black schools to illustrate that separate is not equal. I never heard of those images. I did a few Google searches and found some images. ( http://tinyurl.com/hhqpv9x ) but I want to see if I can find more specific images. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Make sure within your spoiler Tim to add the citation but you are doing very very well. We do not have to add any citations for the book we are reading or any of the personages in the book but other books we do:

by Jeffrey Toobin

I read that book too Tim and enjoyed it very much.

Don't forget that we are adding all sorts of ancillary information to the spoiler thread associated with this book - here is the link -

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Also we have a great folder on civil rights - here is that folder:

https://www.goodreads.com/topic/group...

Regarding your response - Page 3 - Chapter 1

(view spoiler)[You know my elderly father always asks why do the blacks run when the police come and then they end up being shot. He is always upset with the news and all of these stories. Once you read some of this you learn why - fear.

I think Thurgood was smart enough to know which battles he could win with law and which ones he could not. Remember despite the fact that he was educated, smart, and very clever - he still had to work within the system and he knew the system inside and out.''

What could the law do about lynchings that had not taken place and what could the law do to enforce that justice would be done when the white town's people circled and protected the perpetrators.

I agree with you - racism was in the fabric of the cities themselves. And they saw nothing wrong with that at the time. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Christopher

(view spoiler)[ You are right Christopher - every man and woman has their flaws and they are only human - and many of our former leaders would never stand a chance now with the media trying to dig up everything they can to bring them down. No normal human being has a shot. Yes I think he did (liked his drink) and I think Lyndon and he were quite the "compadres". There were a lot of cruel things done in our country before and after the Civil War and throughout history. Sad but true - I think though that what sets us apart is that we have grown from this and tried always to do better. Many other countries have not - but some have turned the corner and have done much better than their past. I am not sure how young men in the South could just go out and lynch or shoot a black person for sport or revenge and then go home like nothing much had gone on. Horrendous times. (hide spoiler)]

[Francie]

Tim wrote: "Bentley and Francis,

My apologies, still trying to get that down.

Prologue - Page 3 -- Chapter 1



Hmm, I know so little about Thurgood that almost everything is new to me.

I finished reading:..."

Response to Tim

(view spoiler)[Tim: I'm so glad you are enjoying the book so far, and I think a lot of us are going to be learning a great deal about Thurgood Marshall and his fight for civil rights.

I totally agree with you that the part about the KKK is gruesome. I love Gilbert King's writing style. He paints a vivid picture.

You have some very interesting comments and questions. I'm not sure I can answer the question about why people got away with lynching and other cruelties at that point in time. Maybe we'll find out more as we read further.

Were lynchings the preferred punishment because penalties for committing a crime had used hanging as a form of punishment; whereas, shooting someone was considered a crime?

You did a great job on your post, but remember to use the correct citation when you mention another book. It should be posted at the bottom and look like this:

by Jeffrey Toobin (hide spoiler)]

[Francie]

Christopher wrote: "Response to Week 1 Questions and Comments


Q1) My knowledge of Thurgood Marshall was limited to knowing that he was a Supreme Court Justice. I joined this month's read to learn more about him.
Q3)..."

Response to Christopher

(view spoiler)[Glad to have you join us, Christopher. I think we're all going to learning about Mr. Marshall through reading this book. Thank you for answering the week's questions, and your comments are quite insightful.

What do you think Thurgood Marshall's statement: "sometimes I get awfully tired of trying to save the white man's soul" (Prologue, page 4)? (hide spoiler)]

[Francie]

Jim wrote: "Like others, I know some scatter information about Thurgood Marshall and his work in the Civil Rights Movement. However, I have never read a book about him and his work. I am looking forward to rea..."

Response to Jim

(view spoiler)[Welcome to the discussion, Jim. We are glad to have you joining us. I was also surprised about the clubs being too expensive and the "rent" parties.

The emphasis Thurgood Marshall put on setting precedence in cases was very much a part of his character as a lawyer and his belief in the Constitution. I think this quote summarizes that well: "There is very little truth in the old refrain that one cannot legislate equality. Laws not only provide concrete benefits, they can even change the hearts of men -- some men, anyhow -- for good or evil." (Prologue, page 4)

In this present day, do you think the laws have helped or hindered the civil rights movement?

Thank you for all of your comments and the link to the pictures was great, some very shocking. Please go back and put your comments in spoiler format. You can find the directions on how to do it in messages 5 and 6 above. (hide spoiler)]

[Matthew]

Francie wrote: "Tim wrote: "Bentley and Francis,

My apologies, still trying to get that down.

Prologue - Page 3 -- Chapter 1



Hmm, I know so little about Thurgood that almost everything is new to me.

I finis..."


Francie, and others,
My understanding is that lynching is not necessarily synonomous with hangings, but could've been any kind of death by mob, usually involving busting people out of jail to kill them, perhaps by hanging or perhaps by being dragged behind a car, etc.
I've done a lot of reading on slavery, civil rights and the South in the last few years and have learned so much, which is sad, since I've always lived in the South. I think a lot of these things were institutionalized with the termination of Reconstruction and the failure of the North to follow through with their commitments to African Americans. Then, for another 75 years or more, Southern officials knew they could get away with murder.

[Matthew]

Prologue

(view spoiler)[A few things caught my attention in the Prologue.
Page 2: I love the phrase describing Thurgood, "The Founding Father of the New America." Indeed, it was necessary to have a new Founding Father, since the original ones pretty much dropped the ball on the slavery/racism question. "All men are created equal"...really? They had to get around that little phrase by arguing that the slaves were not even human beings. It was more important to them to have a union of states than to be morally in the right. In many respects the civil rights movement undid a wrong done at the founding of the nation and later perpetuated by the federal government's failure to follow through with enforcement after the Civil War.
Page 3: This is my 2nd time going through this book, and it was just as shocking this time through to see racism entering into the victim's identification testimony in court without objection: "...the nigger Shepherd...the nigger Irvin...the nigger Grennlea..." That pretty much sums up where Southern society and government were at at that point in time.
Page 5: Finally, I thought it moving to see how grassroots the support from the African American community was. Everyone pitching in to help with the little things, a roof over a lawyer's head, a sack lunch in court, transportation cobbled together. They were all collectively on a crusade (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Matthew

(view spoiler)[Your posts have had some very interesting perspectives and observations. And the Southerners are very good people but it is like anything else - when it is OK to feel a certain way towards a particular group (probably because of their plantation heritage) and the fact that there was even the opinion among the founding fathers that blacks were not equivalent to white people in the Constitution - meaning that their rights and numbers could be adjusted for the purposes of districting and allotments.. The other reason of course and the one used was districting (see below - message 49)You can understand but not condone that old ideas and beliefs die hard. And remember there was the Three Fifths Compromise so the entire nation was complicit in these beliefs as horrible as they are to all of us now.

The Three-Fifths Compromise was a compromise reached between delegates from southern states and those from northern states during the 1787 United States Constitutional Convention. The debate was over whether, and if so, how, slaves would be counted when determining a state's total population for legislative representation and taxing purposes. The issue was important, as this population number would then be used to determine the number of seats that the state would have in the United States House of Representatives for the next ten years. The effect was to give the southern states a third more seats in Congress and a third more electoral votes than if slaves had been ignored (but fewer than if counts of slaves and free persons had been lumped together), allowing the slaveholder interests to largely dominate the government of the United States until 1861.[1] The compromise was proposed by delegates James Wilson and Roger Sherman. (hide spoiler)]

More:

Quotes from articles cited below (message 49):
"The so-called racist intent of the Constitution is seen by some (many?) in the “three-fifths clause” found in Article I, section 2, clause 3. Contrary to what some historians claim, the “three-fifths clause” is a clear indication that a number of our constitutional founders wanted to end slavery; it is not a statement about personhood. The Northern states did not want to count slaves. The Southern states hoped to include slaves in the population statistics in order to acquire additional representation in Congress to advance their political position".

More:
Quotes from articles cited below (message 49):
Two things immediately come to mind. First, the number of House Representatives is directly related to population and by extension holds weight for the Electoral College. By only considering three-fifths of all non-free persons (slaves), the pro-slavery South was prevented from politically overpowering the generally anti-slavery North. In other words, had the whole number of slaves been counted, the South’s population would have allotted for a significant number more Representatives in the House and more Electoral votes. The abolition of slavery, which eventually would have been abolished anyway, would have taken significantly longer to accomplish

More Explanations: - Same articles cited in message 49

Secondly, and more importantly, nothing in the Constitution declares that blacks — or slaves — were three-fifths human/person. It clearly states that only three-fifths of the non-free will count toward the allotment of House representatives. Notice that the focus is on whether a person is free or other than free. Both are referred to as persons with no distinction of lesser or greater.

Source: Wikipedia and articles fully cited in message 49 to avoid confusion

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Jim

(view spoiler)[I had never heard of "rent" parties either. (hide spoiler)]

I thought this was interesting and this is some general information on Thurgood Marshall and LDF - so not a spoiler in the book. I will also place this on the spoiler thread for general information which can be referred back to with some other links.

"The NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund is simply the best civil rights law firm in American history." -- President Obama

LDF Website



Thurgood Marshall founded LDF in 1940 and served as its first Director-Counsel. He was the architect of the legal strategy that ended the country’s official policy of segregation. Marshall was the first African American to serve on the Supreme Court on which he served as Associate Justice from 1967-1991 after he was successfully nominated by President Johnson. He retired from the bench in 1991 and passed away on January 24, 1993 in Washington DC at the age of 84. Civil rights and social change came about through meticulous and persistent litigation efforts, at the forefront of which stood Thurgood Marshall and the Legal Defense Fund. Through the courts, he ensured that Blacks enjoyed the rights and responsibilities of full citizenship.

Marshall was born on July 2, 1908 in Baltimore, Maryland to William Marshall, railroad porter, who later worked on the staff of Gibson Island Club, a white-only country club and Norma Williams, a school teacher. One of his great-grandfathers had been taken as a slave from the Congo to Maryland where he was eventually freed. Marshall graduated from Lincoln University in 1930 and applied to University of Maryland Law School – he was denied admission because the school was still segregated at that time. So Marshall matriculated to Howard University Law School where he graduated first in his class and met his mentor, Charles Hamilton Huston, with whom he enjoyed a lifelong friendship. In an interview published in 1992 in the American Bar Association Journal, Marshall wrote that "Charlie Houston insisted that we be social engineers rather than lawyers,” a mantra that he upheld and personified.

Immediately after graduation, Marshall opened a law office in Baltimore and in the early 1930s, he represented the local NAACP chapter in a successful lawsuit that challenged the University of Maryland Law School over its segregation policy. In addition, he successfully brought lawsuits that integrated other state universities. In 1936, Marshall became the NAACP’s chief legal counsel. The NAACP’s initial goal was to funnel equal resources to black schools. Marshall successfully challenged the board to only litigate cases that would address the heart of segregation.

After founding the NAACP Legal Defense Fund in 1940, Marshall became the key strategist in the effort to end racial segregation, in particular meticulously challenging Plessy v. Ferguson, the Court-sanctioned legal doctrine that called for “separate but equal” structures for white and blacks. Marshall won a series of court decisions that gradually struck down that doctrine, ultimately leading to Brown v. Board of Education, which he argued before the Supreme Court in 1952 and 1953, finally overturning “separate but equal” and acknowledging that segregation greatly diminished students’ self-esteem. Asked by Justice Felix Frankfurter during the argument what he meant by "equal," Mr. Marshall replied, "Equal means getting the same thing, at the same time, and in the same place."

In 1957 LDF, led by Marshall, became an entirely separate entity from the NAACP with its own leadership and board of directors and has remained a separate organization to this day.

As a lead legal architect of the civil rights movement, Marshall constantly traveled to small, dusty, scorching courtrooms throughout the south. At one point, he oversaw as many as 450 simultaneous cases. Among other major victories, he successfully challenged a whites-only primary elections in Texas in addition to a case in which the Supreme Court declared that restrictive covenants that barred blacks from buying or renting homes could not be enforced in state courts.

In 1961, President Kennedy nominated Marshall to the U.S. Court of Appeals for the 2nd Circuit in which he wrote 112 opinions, none of which was overturned on appeal. Four years later, he was appointed by President Johnson to be solicitor general and in 1967 President Johnson nominated him to the Supreme Court to which he commented: "I have a lifetime appointment and I intend to serve it. I expect to die at 110, shot by a jealous husband." Of the appointment President Johnson later that Marshall’s nomination was "the right thing to do, the right time to do it, the right man and the right place."

As a Supreme Court Justice, he became increasingly dismayed and disappointed as the court’s majority retreated from remedies he felt were necessary to address remnants of Jim Crow. In his Bakke dissent, he wrote: "In light of the sorry history of discrimination and its devastating impact on the lives of Negroes, bringing the Negro into the mainstream of American life should be a state interest of the highest order. To fail to do so is to insure that America will forever remain a divided society."

In particular, Marshall fervently dissented in cases in which the Supreme Court upheld death sentences; he wrote over 150 opinions dissenting from cases in which the Court refused to hear death penalty appeals. Among Marshall’s salient majority opinions for the Supreme Court were: Amalgamated Food Employees Union v. Logan Valley Plaza, in 1968, which determined that a mall was “public forum” and unable to exclude picketers; Stanley v. Georgia, in 1969, held that pornography, when owned privately, could not be prosecuted. "If the First Amendment means anything, it means that a state has no business telling a man, sitting alone in his own house, what books he may read or what films he may watch”; and Bounds v. Smith, which held that state prison systems are must provide their inmates with "adequate law libraries or adequate assistance from persons trained in the law." Marshall’s status as a pillar of the Civil Rights Movement is confirmed and upheld by LDF and other organizations who strive to uphold the principals of civil rights and racial justice. His legacy cannot be overstated: he worked diligently and tirelessly to end what was America’s official doctrine of separate-but-equal.

Source: LDF website

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I thought that this photo might be interesting for the group:



LDF Attorneys on the steps of the Supreme Court: (Left to Right) John Scott, James Nabrit, Spottswood Robinson, Frank Reeves, Jack Greenberg, Thurgood Marshall, Louis Redding, U. Simpson Tate, George Hayes.

1954 Brown v. Board of Education

The Supreme Court rules that racial segregation in public schools violates the Fourteenth Amendment, which guarantees equal protection, and the Fifth Amendment, which guarantees due process.

This landmark case overturned the “separate but equal” doctrine that underpinned legal segregation.

Attorneys for the plaintiffs in the five cases that comprised the Supreme Court case were:

Thurgood Marshall, Director-Counsel, NAACP Legal Defense and Educational Fund, Inc.

Harold Boulware - Briggs v. Elliott (South Carolina)

Jack Greenberg, Louis L. Redding - Gebhart v. Belton (Delaware)

Robert L. Carter, Charles S. Scott - Brown v. Board of Education of Topeka (Kansas)

Oliver M. Hill, Spottswood W. Robinson III - Davis v. County School Board of Prince Edward County (Virginia)

James M. Nabrit, Jr., George E. C. Hayes - Bolling v. Sharpe (District of Columbia)

Attorneys Of Counsel: Charles L. Black, Jr., Elwood H. Chisolm, William T. Coleman, Jr., Charles T. Duncan, William R. Ming, Jr., Constance Baker Motley, David E. Pinsky, Frank D. Reeves, John Scott, and Jack B. Weinstein.

[Tomi]

Bentley wrote: "Response to Matthew

Your posts have had some very interesting perspectives and observations. And the Southerners are very good people but it is like anything else - when it is OK to feel a certai..."

Why 3/5? One of my students asked me that, and I did some research. Don't remember now exactly where I found the information, but evidently the belief at the time was that an enslaved person would only be 3/5 as profitable or hard-working as a free person would. Which, of course, brings up the question of why have slaves if freemen are more profitable workers...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Tomi I guess the above is not a spoiler of the book but make sure to follow the spoiler format - refer to messages 5 and 6. Very easy to do and I gave you the html that you can use (copy and paste). I also made clearer the previous post with references to the articles below to avoid misunderstanding. Additional info on the partner spoiler thread for this book.

Response:

It had to do with districting:

See following article:
https://americanvision.org/3918/the-o...

Another article:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/postev...

Another article:
http://siftingreality.com/2013/07/09/...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Folks make sure to check out the partner spoiler thread (for this book) for all sorts of ancillary information, videos, articles, etc. which the moderators do not put on this thread so as not to inhibit conversation. There is a lot of ancillary civil rights information as well on the spoiler thread:

Here is the link: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...

Check out message 5 and 6 if you do not know how to do it