Tournament of Books discussion
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2016 Tournament of Books
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Play-In and Opening Rounds of TOB 2016
Amy wrote: "at first I was a bit flummoxed at the love John & Kevin were throwing at Fates especially since its been compared so much to Gone Girl and I figured that enough would bring out the ..."This is why I love this group! Great read on F&F, Amy.
nomadreader (Carrie D-L) wrote: "I find your take interesting...She is one of my favorite characters in literature ever"oh yeah, don't get me wrong ... I LOVE Mathilde; she is a beautiful FURY. There were so many moments where I empathized with her slowly building, seething fury or where I recognized the dismissive tones and assumptions aimed at her from her husband and marveled at her self-possession. And yet... to some degree elements of Mathilde seem especially created for Lotto... she loves and forgives him everything because he gives her family (despite so much evidence to the contrary), she is a hellcat in bed (for 22 years), her secret history is full of sexual taboos (she went from virgin to complete humiliation in weeks)... and she just doesn't change over time, she has external changes happen to her. What I cannot figure out is if Groff is in on it. She seems in on the joke regarding privilege, she even seems in on the self-blind misogyny... but she still seems to be giving certain writers exactly what they want (our own TOB Irving especially comes to mind).
Yeah, I would never think of Tsar's prose as purple, but I could see the melodrama of ALL being seen as over-the-top and thus the language used to tell its story by definition could be considered "purple."
Can't think of anything more to write than "wow"!"Wow" about the judgement. Like nomadreader, I am a Groff fan and loved Fates. (While I haven't got to Bat, I will definitely be reading it!)
And again, like Ellen, just plain "wow" about Amy's fantasy muse interpretation. Wow, Amy!!! So much cause for thought!!! That just sat me back to read the comment over again!
And, not wow but a protective grrrr, the Tsar is not purple!!
Ha! I really touched a nerve with Tsar. Maybe I would make a good 'controversial' ToB judge. ;)
I really love your interpretation, Amy. F&F and ALL seem to have provoked such divided opinions and leaving it at 'tastes differ' is unsatisfying.
I really love your interpretation, Amy. F&F and ALL seem to have provoked such divided opinions and leaving it at 'tastes differ' is unsatisfying.
Amy wrote: "nomadreader (Carrie D-L) wrote: "I find your take interesting...She is one of my favorite characters in literature ever"oh yeah, don't get me wrong ... I LOVE Mathilde; she is a beautiful FURY. Th..."
I'm still pondering your ideas, as I'm trying to distinguish between my ideas about Mathilde as a reader and my assumptions about Groff's intentions (and how both play in to both my understanding of and love for this novel.) I *think* I'm comfortable saying that Groff intends the reader to see Mathilde as others do. As I read, there were times Lotto hears one piece of information about Mathilde and assumes one of two (or more) possible explanations. As a reader, I knew Mathilde's section was coming, and I was curious which would be the actual answer. There were also moments as a reader I didn't realize Lotto was assuming incorrect things about Mathilde. That's one of the things I loved about this novel so much, that even as a careful reader, Groff managed to write Mathilde on at least three levels: Lotto's, a careful reader who knows a second part is coming, and the one revealed in the Mathilde's narration. For me, Groff was flipping the male gaze more generally, and Lotto's gaze more specifically, throughout Mathilde's section. It's one of the reasons I loved this book so much, as it made me question, "what is it you thought you know?" and "what assumptions are you making?"
AmberBug wrote: "The Nineties Airport Round made me laugh too. Great write up... but i was hoping for some laughs since the trio is a group of comedians."Yes, I too loved that comment.
Deborah wrote: "poingu wrote: "From this round I learned 1) I strongly prefer judgments made by 1 judge only--this play-in round seemed shallow compared with the reasoned, sometimes anguished judgments of 1-pers..."
Me too.
AmberBug wrote: "Drew wrote: "Jen wrote: "AmberBug wrote: "I'm a huge Irving fan but I still need to read some of his essential works - so I decided to skip over this newer one anyways. I'm in the opposite boat, I ..."I was hoping the Tyler book won. While it was my first Tyler book (don't know why I have not read anything prior to this) and I liked I was not wowed by it. But I so agree with the statement made that it stays with you after you have finished.
I am an Irving fan but I put this book down fairly early. Thought maybe it was just not the right time but as I read more and more comments on it - I think this book is just not for me.
I am glad that Bats won this round. I am not quite finished with it but I am really enjoying. I was one of those that felt this book is not for me but I was wrong. I got the book from the library and think part of my enjoyment is the format that works so well in print.
So a "historical" story and a "futuristic" story - two of my favs so what more could I ask for.
Because I was running out of time and wanted to get a taste of the book before results were posted - I listened to a little as an audio read and my still not sure if I will continue - really like the premise that we learn the story from two different sides after you have formed an opinion from hearing one side first - but what I listened to did not grab me. But I probably will go back and first the audio out of curiosity.
for me the 'fact or fiction' part of each component of Bats won me over even when the story was a little wobbly. In fact if I took Zeke's "City-State" tale as part of Elswyth's mother's speculative fiction writing and "The Sisters Grey" as a book within-a-book and the Zadock letters as part of the City-State tale... then everything is a self-referential invention of a 19th century work by the unnamed mother. And it's better/more cohesive than a lot of P.K. Dick short-stories (which I was oft reminded of). But if the City-State portion is just an unconnected but same titled account then the mother's writing is lost, the letters are real and the "Sisters Grey" book is either a memoir-as-diary historical book or another complete work of fiction that just happens to bear similar names as Zeke's genealogy and Zadock's letters. Much as Bats thinly disguises the author in his two male protagonists. My brain is swirly.
Tomorrow is Sympathizer and Oreo... I'm hoping Sympathizer takes it. The Judge Brad Listi wrote Attention. Deficit. Disorder.: A Novel and runs the podcast Otherppl (fantastic interview on this podcast btw). I'm so torn over which way he will lean with this one. What does everyone else think?
So fun to see Zachary Dodson, Jeff Vandermeer, and Will Chancellor all tweeting about today's matchup.
I haven't read The Sympathizer but I think it's possible Listi might go for Oreo. He seems open to something that experiments. I'm hoping, at least!
I'm still only halfway through The Sympathizer. I wish I didn't have to work tomorrow so I could pull an all-nighter. I haven't read Oreo, but I'd be happy to see The Sympathizer advance.
Sue wrote: "Nobody better call Marra's magnificent prose purple!"
I'm right there with you on that, Sue!
I'm right there with you on that, Sue!
I'm so torn. I'm trying to finish Sympathizer tonight but I admire both books so much. In the end though I think the Sympathizer is much more accessible while still beautifully written and ambitious in scope.
The first big upset on day two? Fantastic! I didn't love F&F, but I was sure it was going to advance over Bats. My brackets are shot, but what fun! Here's hoping for more surprises to come...
Amy wrote: "I'm so torn. I'm trying to finish Sympathizer tonight but I admire both books so much. In the end though I think the Sympathizer is much more accessible while still beautifully written and ambitiou..."I'm not sure how far you are but if you've read about half, reading the second half probably wouldn't change your mind on who to vote for. The book is pretty steady with what it is. Even though I want The Sympathizer to go on, I have a feeling this judge will be more inclined to pick Oreo.
Oh and that by NO means was meant to keep you from finishing the book, I just don't think you need to rush for the judging on this one.
AmberBug wrote: "...I have a feeling this judge will be more inclined to pick Oreo. "
What makes you think Brad Listi will prefer Oreo? I think tomorrow is the most evenly matched round, and I have no prediction about which one Listi will advance.
What makes you think Brad Listi will prefer Oreo? I think tomorrow is the most evenly matched round, and I have no prediction about which one Listi will advance.
AmberBug wrote: "Oh and that by NO means was meant to keep you from finishing the book, I just don't think you need to rush for the judging on this one."I'll definitely finish it, no matter what happens.
Just the description of his book Attention. Deficit. Disorder.: A Novel, he writes about philosophical ideas, classic texts and coming of age, thus causing me to think he would value those traits in Oreo (not to mention the journey).
AmberBug wrote: "Just the description of his book Attention. Deficit. Disorder.: A Novel, he writes about philosophical ideas, classic texts and coming of age, thus causing me to think he would value ..."
Good call!
Good call!
i'm having a personal vendetta right now against maria bustillos for having killed Fates and Furies.
AmberBug wrote: "Amy wrote: "I'm so torn. I'm trying to finish Sympathizer tonight but I admire both books so much. In the end though I think the Sympathizer is much more accessible while still beautifully written ..."yup, I'm about halfway (it might be a late night!) I think you may be right that Listi's personal style tends more towards Oreo (and that's how I weighed my bracket) but I'm not putting any money on it!
Don't worry Fates will be fated to rise again! What other book from that side has a big chance to come back?
Okay, spoke too soon. Mayyyybe Turner House.
Amy wrote: "It's an artistic male's bildungs roman with a fantasy muse in Mathilde."nooooooooo. mathilde is the hero of the story! this is a feminist novel! beautifully written! genius! oh man i'm so bummed.
AmberBug wrote: "Okay, spoke too soon. Mayyyybe Turner House."or Our Souls at Night... but I'm betting on F&F.
I could be wrong, but I didn't think zombies had to come one from each side - just top two vote-getters. So could be Tsar, ALL, Sellout if any of those get booted (seriously hoping not but who knows).
Either way, still betting on F&F to zombie myself even though I hope it's gone for good.
Looking at the GR stats, Bats got a nice uptick in "to read" and "added" and Fates, Blue Thread and Avenue didn't see it. Looks like a lot of people were convinced by today's decision to check it out.
Rachel wrote: "Looking at the GR stats, Bats got a nice uptick in "to read" and "added"...Looks like a lot of people were convinced by today's decision to check it out."
I am one of those people. I had planned to skip Bats, but now I feel the need to read it.
I am one of those people. I had planned to skip Bats, but now I feel the need to read it.
I am shocked. I was by no means a huge fan of Fates and Furies - it was a 3-star read for me - but I found Bats of the Republic: An Illuminated Novel utterly substanceless. I'm not a fan of this ruling simply because I feel Bats has nothing to offer to literature except for pretty packaging. Poingu - it is gimmicky! But I hope you will read it because I'd love to hear your opinion.
The judge said, "This could be because the book is confusing and sloppily written, or else it could mean that I’m easily confused. The latter, let’s be honest, seems more likely."This was my experience reading Oreo. This book is too smart for me and I hated feeling dumb because things didn't click for me.
That was really a well written judgment--very thoughtful about the strengths and drawbacks of each novel. I felt I knew more about how each worked, after reading Brad Listi's take. As much as I loved Oreo I felt completely satisfied by his reason for advancing The Sympathizer.
jo wrote: "Amy wrote: "It's an artistic male's bildungs roman with a fantasy muse in Mathilde."nooooooooo. mathilde is the hero of the story! this is a feminist novel! beautifully written! genius! oh man i'..."
I feel you. Mathilde's character is so much more than that, and it's really disappointing to me that readers and writers are taking such a complex character written by a woman and reducing her to a fantasy muse.
Also - all the female characters in Bats are sickly muses who are defined by their relationships to the big strong men in the book, so I wish that got called out.
I ordered Bats after reading the judgement. It seems gimmicky, but so many of the keywords that the judge used check my boxes: 'Texas', 'speculative fiction', and 'puzzles'.
Holly wrote: "Mathilde's character is so much more than that, and it's really disappointing to me that readers and writers are taking such a complex character written by a woman and reducing her to a fantasy muse...."Oh man. I absolutely disliked Mathilde's character. I didn't get complex. I got avatar, unrealistic, unplausible motivation from her. Why in the world, if she's so forward-thinking and resourceful, does she remain so unhappy for so many years? Why are her means of success only through being a secret, twisted support character, letting life pass by bitterly? I get the opposite of a feminist novel. If she was a real person, she'd be closer to the girls from high school who stay in the small town, skipping college to be a dependent housewife and mother of five rather than a self-motivated individual driven by her own wants/wishes.
Holly wrote: "jo wrote: "Amy wrote: "It's an artistic male's bildungs roman with a fantasy muse in Mathilde."nooooooooo. mathilde is the hero of the story! this is a feminist novel! beautifully written! genius..."
Amy mentioned how she did love Mathilde and what she said was in no ways demeaning the character down to a "fantasy muse". She was clearly stating a revelation that could be interpreted that way (and clearly it can be) whether that was the Authors intentions or not.
If she was a real person, she'd be closer to the girls from high school who stay in the small town, skipping college to be a dependent housewife and mother of five rather than a self-motivated individual driven by her own wants/wishes. Well, for one, I didn't say I thought it was a feminist novel, jo did. But I am baffled by this statement. Mathilde isn't a real person because she isn't a housewife and is a self-motivated individual who cares about herself? Can you expand?
I'm content with the judges decision today (it would have been the hardest matchup for me, hands down) but here's hoping my measly one vote for Oreo as the zombie makes a difference!
I voted for Oreo as a zombie too! I'm disappointed in this decision. I haven't read The Sympathizer (and am not sure I will, tbh), so I can't compare the two, but I do love Oreo and was hoping for more conversation about it. Alas.
Rebecca wrote: "I voted for Oreo as a zombie too! I'm disappointed in this decision. I haven't read The Sympathizer (and am not sure I will, tbh), so I can't compare the two, but I do love Oreo and was hoping for ..."The Sympathizer is definitely worth checking out!
I voted for Oreo as a zombie as well. Here's hoping there's a little life in it yet.I haven't read The Sympathizer yet, but I thought the judgment was well-reasoned. I was planning on reading it at some point and this decision just pushed it up the list.
I was hoping for Fates and Furies to be pitted against Oreo, if only for what I think would be a fascinating discussion about the function of Greek mythology in both. Instead, the next round will be the opposite. That's a little disappointing, but I have faith there will be some interesting Bats vs. Sympathizer commentary to enjoy.
The comments section over yonder is mighty thin. Not much to say about these books or the judgings? Definitely more of an uproar yesterday.
AmberBug wrote: "The comments section over yonder is mighty thin. Not much to say about these books or the judgings? Definitely more of an uproar yesterday."I hadn't read either novel, so didn't really have a dog in this hunt. Embarrassing confession: I tried and failed to get into The Sympathizer. Even more embarrassing confession: I think I might be the only ToB fan that did not like The Orphan Master's Son. I stopped reading it about midway through.
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Tournament of Books
Books mentioned in this topic
The Whites (other topics)Villette (other topics)
The Turner House (other topics)
Fates and Furies (other topics)
Oreo (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Anne Tyler (other topics)John Irving (other topics)
John Irving (other topics)
Anne Tyler (other topics)
Anne Tyler (other topics)
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I find your take interesting. I had a very different experience with and interpretation of Mathilde. She is one of my favorite characters in literature ever. She's complex and dynamic. I found her fascinating. She's the star of the book for me, but her journey was captivating, as were the glimpses into her journey and perspective. (edited for grammar)