Support for Indie Authors discussion
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Defenders of the practice of honest reviews, unite!
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Hi everyone. Just a few comments. We do not want to share links to services, either to promote or to shame. This is not in the spirit of the group. We do not condone paid reviews, but keep in mind that when people speak of paid reviews, they mean paid customer reviews. Editorial reviews are paid for, yes, but these should never be misrepresented as a customer review as that is an FTC violation. Please keep these concepts separate when discussing the practice. Thanks.
Very interesting comments. Just as an aside, I once knew a journalist who had a huge following. He reviewed about a dozen books a week and I always wondered how he had time to read them - until I learnt that he didn't. He just made up reviews from the back cover blurb. It worked, though. The books sold because he recommended them. This was in the days of traditionally published books, before indie publishing took off. I wonder how many reviewers still do what he did?
Makes me think of an episode of Castle where a fellow author sent a fresh copy of his newest book to Castle, and he just held it up to his forehead and spouted off this string of glowing praise. Probably not far off the mark, really.
I do not pay for reviews and it bothers me when people do. And I agree that editorial reviews are not customer reviews, but really why is the practice so different morally? Kirkus charges $4-550 for a short review and most of it is a blurb about the book with the last 20 words or so being about the book's worthiness or unworthiness. Other services charge as well. Why is this different morally than paying granny down the street $5 to read and offer her thoughts?
Eva wrote: "I do not pay for reviews and it bothers me when people do. And I agree that editorial reviews are not customer reviews, but really why is the practice so different morally? Kirkus charges $4-550 fo..."It's representation. If you paid granny down the street $5, you are free to post her comments as an editorial review for all the good that would do you. You cannot claim that granny's $5 review is an unbiased customer review as she did not buy your book and received compensation for her words. This is not an honest review. A kirkus or blurb from a fellow author are paid endorsements, not reviews.
Maybe because Kirkus reviews are not allowed on Amazon while the granny you paid $5 could actually post it?(To me, Kirkus is nothing but a vanity review when you stop and think about it.)
Good points, you can't post them to the same place. Of course, Kirkus would argue that they are unbiased reviews as would the San Francisco Book Reviews which are also paid.
Christina wrote: "Hi everyone. Just a few comments. We do not want to share links to services, either to promote or to shame..."
Agreed. I do not see anything wrong with a reviewer being paid to write editorial reviews as long as the reviewer adheres to Can Spam laws to promote her/his services and does not violate other websites' TOS.
To be honest, I was a paid reviewer for an agency that posted reviews on Amazon. I got out when I realized that I was violating the TOS on several sites.
There are times when I miss the income from reviewing books. I generally read and review 12 books a month; $5/review would be nice so that I could move my blog to WordPress.org while keeping my blog's domain, get a professionally made template, or maybe even subscribe to that Kindle Unlimited service that many authors seem to want reviewers to use.
Agreed. I do not see anything wrong with a reviewer being paid to write editorial reviews as long as the reviewer adheres to Can Spam laws to promote her/his services and does not violate other websites' TOS.
To be honest, I was a paid reviewer for an agency that posted reviews on Amazon. I got out when I realized that I was violating the TOS on several sites.
There are times when I miss the income from reviewing books. I generally read and review 12 books a month; $5/review would be nice so that I could move my blog to WordPress.org while keeping my blog's domain, get a professionally made template, or maybe even subscribe to that Kindle Unlimited service that many authors seem to want reviewers to use.
I just got the same as the op by pm here :(
I'm afraid reviews can become a problem instead of a benefit for us indie writers. Let me make my point before you get horrified. reviews are good if the person who does it gives an honest opinion. Good or bad it doesn't matter. It's a benefit to the writer but it's also damage. If a book has Many 5 star reviews people can get suspicious. Now, if your work is really good, it can happen, right? I've just read a book by Alan Hardy and it is a five star book in my opinion. The thing is, I'm not the only one to think so. When there are people selling reviews, Alan may get bad results because his book is really good! We are all under the umbrella of a mighty corporation. I would suggest that only writers would have their reviews published. As writers we are able to criticize, and as writers we are also conscious of how bad this horrible market is and how it can affect us. The way the thing is now, mean and greedy people can put down the drain the work we do with our souls.
Luciana wrote: "I'm afraid reviews can become a problem instead of a benefit for us indie writers. Let me make my point before you get horrified. reviews are good if the person who does it gives an honest opinion...."Reviews are honest opinions. They are also subjective. What you find to be worthy of five stars might be a one star waste of time for someone else. Reviews are for the reader, not the author. Reviews become a problem for the author when an author engages with the reviewer.
We are all under the umbrella of a mighty corporation.
Actually, as indies, we aren't. We gwt to make our own choices, wrong or right.
I would suggest that only writers would have their reviews published. As writers we are able to criticize, and as writers we are also conscious of how bad this horrible market is and how it can affect us. The way the thing is now, mean and greedy people can put down the drain the work we do with our souls.
Again, reviews are for readers. Saying that only authors should have the ability to write reviews is like saying that paid reviews should be the only reviews allowed because most (traditional) authors write editorial reviews for each other.
Look, the formal stance of Support Indie Authors on paid product reviews (not editorial) is that it is a violation of the FTC's rules, Amazon's TOS, and our own sense of right and wrong. We do not endorse nor do we allow anyone to advertise for paid reviews, however, understand that this is not a reason to raise our pitchforks and wage war on the reader's right to review a book as they choose.
Luke wrote: "Yesterday I received an email, sent via the contact email on my blog, with a valid reply-to address.It made me angry. This person offered, for a small sum, to "promote" my book with "honest" well-..."
This sort of thing has been happening on Amazon for years. It's how some publishers boost many books into the Top 100 lists so successfully... they actually have entire offices FULL of people writing reviews of those books, all in the first week after the book is released, even though most have never read them. Such practices are even more rampant in China on Taobao etc (in fact, that's where the technique was invented).
It's irritating, and Amazon and Taobao etc have tried to crack down on such behavior, but there is only so much they can do. So, my opinion is that yes, you should at least make Goodreads aware of the problem (though they probably already are), while understanding that there is only so much that they can do about it, too.
Meanwhile, take everything you read with a grain of salt :-) I personally don't even read the back covers of books before I read the books, because I hate spoilers with a passion.
I do believe reviews are great. I'm afraid I wasn't understood. Now, if we have our books published on Amazon and they freely and generously support our tough work offering us a free author page on their site, we are under their wing. Amazon is responsible for our opportunity of publishing our books as well as Smashwords. It's my opinion, but I don't believe it's the only worthy opinion.I've just seen in my message box here on GR the offer for a promotional pack that includes review. I'm not so sure the person is that evil. But I'm not the only one to have an opinion about it either. I believe we should keep the discussion open. Together, we can reach a position that will help us all.
Luciana wrote: "I've just seen in my message box here on GR the offer for a promotional pack that includes review. I'm not so sure the person is that evil. But I'm not the only one to have an opinion about it either. I believe we should keep the discussion open. Together, we can reach a position that will help us all..."A paid review doesn't help the readers decide if a book is good, and that definitely doesn't help an author because in the end, it's wrong and usually fake.
So yeah, not evil, just another way to take advantage of Indies by taking their money.
G.G. wrote: "Luciana wrote: "I've just seen in my message box here on GR the offer for a promotional pack that includes review. I'm not so sure the person is that evil. But I'm not the only one to have an opini..."I believe you touched the nerve here. I agree that it's an easy way to make money out of naive writers, anxious to pull up their books. I also believe it is not good because truth can't be bought.
I think some of GR groups where you can giveaway a book in exchange for an honest review are a better bet. What do you think?
I do believe in read & review programs in certain groups on GR. I've offered mine in a few of them after I published. As long as they state that they got the book free in exchange for an honest review (and they are honest) I don't see anything wrong with that. However, some groups are more equipped for that. First they are readers oriented and second, they have dedicated mods who keep track of who took what. There is usually a penalty for the reviewers if they don't post a review (unless of course they have a good reason). Otherwise there are always people who will take the book and just run, but that's part of life. It's always a risk.
An experience I've often had is someone on Twitter says they have read my book and are going to review it. The review never shows up because I do not offer to do a review swap. Or in one case the person read my book and then kept posting her book on my Twitter feed and on my Facebook page. I made it clear that I don't participate in intentional author swaps, but she still sent several messages requesting that I review her book. I think that she had the idea that I owed her a review. This author has many 4 and 5 star reviews, but I think the majority of them have come from author swaps. I have read more than one poor story that had great reviews, but no substance to support those reviews.
Until Amazon and other book retailers don't use reviews as ranking of books exposure on their site, they can't stop this type of fraud, despite how many complaints. It's Economics 101 Supply and Demand. Plus technology. As a programmer, I know one thing, there's always ways around the system, no matter how well thought out.Personally, I don't think reviews are a good way to sell a book anyways, because they don't give you a truly honest picture of the book for several reasons.
Unsolicited reviews are from readers that had been inspire to write a review (either good or bad. Statistically, mostly bad, which also quantifies your statement it's not common for a book to have 4.5 or above reviews unless it's 1 or 2.)
The reviews you solicit generally come from semi-professional book reviewers. Don't get me started on them. Not that I dislike them by no means, but there are the shock jocks who love to bash books, the ones who read anything and their bad reviews reflect it, the envious reviewer who tries to hurt sales, the person with a vendetta against the author, the reviewer who just posts something even when they didn't read the book, and the list goes on.
However, I agree. There should be something put in place to warn authors of predators like the person who sent you the email. Not simply, because he is tainting the honest of review system, but he is trying to fleece you. For all you know what he offers isn't even true. Just a scam.
Another way to stop scam artist is to ask Goodreads to put a system in place where authors can post their book for free in lieu of a review. Not just a giveaway.
C. wrote: "Until Amazon and other book retailers don't use reviews as ranking of books exposure on their site..."Sales rank is based on sales, not reviews. It would not surprise me at all to learn that the reason this myth perpetuates is because review selling services keep throwing it out there.
Christina wrote: "C. wrote: "Until Amazon and other book retailers don't use reviews as ranking of books exposure on their site..."Sales rank is based on sales, not reviews. It would not surprise me at all to lear..."
That's my belief too - indeed it is demonstrably true. However after a set number of reviews (I think it's six reviews) the "Customers Who Viewed This Item Also Viewed..." changes to "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought..." (assuming it is selling to some extent.
When a book has no sales then instead of either there might be "Sponsored Products Related To This Item..." or there might be nothing at all.
And reviews are important in respect to advertising because advertisers require a set number of reviews before the work is deemed worthy. My limited experience is that advertising drives sales much more than reviews do.
So maybe it's advertising that drives the need for reviews as much as it is those who review for a fee.
The reviews also do not affect the "customers who viewed" to "customers who bought." I had 17 reviews and still a "customers who viewed." Then, last week, it switched to "customers who bought" (with no additional reviews). I think it has to do with how many people actually buy the product, not review it.
Denae wrote: "The reviews also do not affect the "customers who viewed" to "customers who bought." I had 17 reviews and still a "customers who viewed." Then, last week, it switched to "customers who bought" (wit..."There's a pattern. An algorithmic pattern that kind of sort of makes sense as an author looking in. But of my five books - there's been four different progressions. I guess A aren't going to share the inner workings with us in a hurry.
My guess is that review numbers/average and sales are triggers - triggers for the changes we see. So I tend to think you are right in what you say too.
My view (after deep reflection on this thread and on another GR thread - that turned into a very interesting slanging match between authors and reviews, and was shut down) is that reviews are more important than they should be when we live in an age of free sample downloads.
Yet reviews continue to trouble us so.
Jamie wrote: "However after a set number of reviews (I think it's six reviews) the "Customers Who Viewed This Item Also Viewed..." changes to "Customers Who Bought This Item Also Bought..." (assuming it is selling to some extent."This is actually the wording from the meme that's been going around. It has been proven false over and over, yet there are still people who know people whose uncle's best friend's wife wirks fir Amazon and can confirm the veracity of the statement. ;)
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Yeah, that's more or less the rumor that continues to go around, although six is much lower than the number usually tossed about.
The number is actually zero.
That's right. With zero reviews, your book could still have other books listed with it as "also bought". There are at least three books of mine on Amazon that have "also bought" books listed with them, but they have zero reviews. The books in question are among those I've given away as part of our group event here and they do get a modest number of sales when they're not free.
Denae wrote: "The reviews also do not affect the "customers who viewed" to "customers who bought." I had 17 reviews and still a "customers who viewed." Then, last week, it switched to "customers who bought" (wit..."One of my books has 3 reviews on Amazon. Today the "also viewed" changed to "also bought." Why? Well, it still has 3 reviews, but here's what changed: someone who bought my book also bought another, as did one of the other people who snagged my book last weekend.
So, the "also bought" appears once someone also bought other books along with yours. Reviews have no effect on this switch.
paid reviews are really bad for authors' goodwill. people tend to spot fake reviews. Readers are smart, they will eventually know what's going on.
Christina wrote: "C. wrote: "Until Amazon and other book retailers don't use reviews as ranking of books exposure on their site..."Sales rank is based on sales, not reviews. It would not surprise me at all to lear..."
She didn't say "sales rank" -- she was referring to the search page rank, which is partly based on reviews using a complex algorithm in which some reviews are more influential than others (verified purchase, "vine" reviews, etc.)
Sales rank is the primary determinant of the search page rank, but more recent sales drive the sales rank. It's all very complicated -- on purpose to keep people from gaming the system.
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ADDED: This also applies to referring to the work of others as "poor quality" or saying some authors have more luck than talent.
No negativity! We are not here to judge the quality of another author's work.
great thread! keep the detailed info on how amazon algorithms work coming! ; )Michael wrote: "As a professor and administrator, I'm asked for about twenty letters of recommendation a year... the game is as flawed as book reviews. These young people have little chance of going on to prove themselves if no one helps them... I don't lie, but have exaggerated on occasion. Having read hundreds such letters, that's how the game is played. It's not my job to fix it at her expense. "Hate the game, not the player," right?
If I believe the young person is willing and able to continue growing and developing, I try to help her get that chance, just like people did for me when I was growing up, showing more potential than accomplishment)."
good insight into the educational system and how some professors think. thx for sharing!
Michael wrote: "It just goes to show you that the game isn't fair. Let's give our fellow honest indies a leg up.
I recognize that my approach only perpetuates a broken system.. If you see someone struggling with barely a review (fighting the good fight), and don't believe it's because the writing is poor or, more importantly, shows no promise for better quality in the future, I want to help her have that chance."
i wouldn't say that the system is broken but rather it was never set up to be fair. before you had the huge publishing houses--much like the huge music distributors--controlling the flow of art/entertainment to the consumer, but now the market forces have been fragmented. even though amazon is the apex predator, it doesn't control the flow of the product to the consumer but is rather a conduit (albeit w/certain controls on that flow). there are tons of book bloggers--instead of the big syndicated media outlets--as well as a whole host of social media sites/apps (twitter, facebook come to mind) and writing sites (wattpad and patreon, for example) to take advantage of and which are providing income for budding small businesses--as opposed to the staggering entertainment dinosaurs of yore.
(btw, shades of gray got in when the self-publishing market was nascent and as such received a huge boon as first-to-market.)
inasmuch as amazon reviews and ratings are quite important as they are visible at the point of sale--and paid customer reviews are an unfair competitive practice--there are quite a number of other ways that indies can advertise their writing.
True, and paid advertising does get a book title under the nose of readers - but most advertisers want a set number of reviews before they advertise the book. At tge mo I've one from six that's advertisable.
As an aside I got kicked out of a fb indie group last night. The proprietor got a two star review that he's hung up on, and started a thread for everyone to post (for a laugh) their negative reviews. I suggested that we ought to take such things on the chin, and quedtioned the point/purpose of the thread. The reviewer was a fellow indie and a member of the same group. A short story that ended with my demise.
I would characterise the offending review as honest. Surely we take such things on the chin. Surely?
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True, and paid advertising does get a book title under the nose of readers - but most advertisers want a set number of reviews before they advertise the book. At tge mo I've one from six that's a..."
That's what we encourage here. Some people just aren't going to like your book, but talking to them about it can lead to a rash of other problems.
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Definitely. I enjoy getting reviews. I appreciate them, even the mild or negative ones. It's nothing to lose sleep over. Sometimes people just are not going to like our work.
Jamie wrote: "I would characterise the offending review as honest. Surely we take such things on the chin. Surely? "Unless the "review" is nothing but personal attacks, it's never worth getting worked up over. A negative review can make other readers say, "Oh, that's exactly what I like in a book," so even those can help promote sales.
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Good points, Joe. One of my milder reviews complains of the level of violence, the profanity and a rape scene in one of my stories. My take is that someone may just be looking for a story that gritty and dark, so I'm glad for the review.
As for personal attacks, yes. I've got a couple of those, too. They were reported, but nothing came of it. But, you know what? Most readers are pretty intelligent. Most readers won't let a personal attack sway their decision on buying a book.
Agree with you both. The review in question was damned near a beta read. I don't know how I'd feel if I got it. Probably I'd work through the five stages of grief.
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However, as a reviewer I can understand why some reviewers are doing it. It takes time to read a book and write a concise, thoughtful and detailed review.
People pay to be reviewed by Kirkus, by the LA Times, by the NY Times, why should a reviewer who has a wide audience that can and will be influenced to buy your book if the review is good not request payment for a review?
That being said, the bulk of people asking for $5 for a review are crappy reviewers who half the time do not read the books.
As a reviewer, I dabbled with the idea when my writing schedule got really hectic, but then I decided that if I am not willing to pay for a review of my book, why would I put that pressure on other authors.
Ultimately, I don't review as many books as I would like because I don't get paid to read for a living. I get a few $$ a month through Amazon's associates and that helps pay for books.
I just think it is interesting that we complain about these reviewers charging, but no one questions paying for a Kirkus review (BTW, did you know that traditionally published books do not have to pay for a review from Kirkus... just us stupid indies who are willing to pay for it. Kind of crappy, IMHO)