Support for Indie Authors discussion

I see this as a societal problem, albeit in the society of books and reading, not in wider society. But we could, surely, develop systems modelled on wider society's own, to defend ourselves from people who are working to undermine us? So we could have some kind of system of justice and fairness, of due diligence and juries of peers, etc., but all digitally-mediated - all enabled by the Internet.
I'm thinking that like the Open Source Software movement, or the powers developing in social media generally ("the Arab spring" via Twitter, or Avaaz, or Change.org, or ...), that there is great power in numbers.
That fact, coupled with the other great truth, that upwards of 90% of people are good and fair, honest and caring, mean that collectively we're stronger than the 5%-10% of bad apples. And it only requires a modest effort that can be spread amongst the general population of good people, to support our society.
(Whether through writing code or finding bugs; or Tweeting about injustice; or videoing abuses of black people by police...)
Am I making any sense? I'm basically suggesting that we could consciously evolve some methods to deal with these pests lurking under covers, by putting our brains together. We could start right here to discuss and grow something big and important...

Already fighting the good fight, brother!"
And I've now signed up - good one, Riley, you can count on me!

Riliey, good article. Sad, though. I wish I didn't have to be suspicious of glowing reviews. The book world would be a great place if we spent our energies writing well instead of buying reviews well.
I guess one thing we can do is vote for reviews that talk specifics about the stories rather than "This book was amazing!!!!!"


Always request constructive criticism.

As an author, I always would rather someone told me the truth about my writing. Always. You can't improve otherwise. On the other hand, as a reviewer (and here's my but) I'm not out to destroy someone, publicly, in print. I know a lot of people do bring out the big guns in the review area, especially on indie books - I just don't feel the need to join in.
I won't provide a dishonest review, trying to put a shine on sh*t. I'll decline to leave a review publicly at all if I fall over a book that in my opinion is truly bad. I will instead provide that feedback to the author and try to explain what caused my opinion. Cop out? Maybe.


The problem, and the reason why paid reviews and fake review services exist, is because somewhere along the line, someone decided that reviews are the be all end all. There is even false information that gets thrown about claiming that after a certain number of reviews, Amazon will give a work more exposure. (Spoiler: they don't)
Reviews are nice, but no, they are not and should not be treated as a marketing tool. Truly organic reviews are for readers to convey their thoughts to other readers and nothing more.
As for the original email claiming to have sock puppet accounts here on Goodreads, yes Luke, you absolutely need to forward that to Goodreads. I'm sure there's a contact us link from your dashboard.
Like you, J.c. I don't post a review below 4 stars, unless the author asks me to. That's how I got my first 1 star review on my trilogy, and also where I learned a lot about being an author. I asked the reviewer to post the review, because I'm not afraid of other people's opinion.
The True Review Pledge states that I as an author refuse to pay for a review. I accept each and every review, positive and negative, and try to learn something from every review.
An author gets my opinion no matter what, negative or positive. Whether or not that 1 star review gets posted is up to them. Remember, some people are coming from no education besides the school of hard knocks. Sometimes they need help being hammered into shape. But like a blacksmith with a too an eager hammer, a reviewer can ruin what could otherwise be a perfectly good sword.
I hope I didn't do all that hard work on Everyone Dies At The End for nothing! Reviews can be effective marketing if done right, at least I hope

I'm very happy when I receive reviews for my novel, but I concentrate on attracting buyers and have no interest in soliciting reviews.

yeah it's difficult getting reviews as it is. I've been tempted but I'm stingy (and usually there's yet another computer to be fixed). it's sad how crazy it's gotten. .

Agreed. I had a blogger email me to say sorry, but I can only give your book two stars. I only had two other reviews at that time, and the blogger didn't want to hurt my book. I asked her to post it. I asked because I don't want people with her tastes to read my book. I'd much prefer people who might enjoy it to find their way to it. I'm the only one or two star review on that site. She normally posts her reviews to GR and A, but hasn't in my case - one day I'll get around to asking her to post the review on GR and A.

You are a good deal more confident than I am. Nevertheless, the destruction of the review system will bring chaos. Almighty A has some control in that it will label the review "verified purchase."
This will halt the McViews to the extent that multiple personas will have to purchase new copies.
However, if anyone believes that they can make money out of reviews they will do it.

I don't give reviews for books I don't finish and start at 3, 4 or 5 stars. I am always respectful of the time and effort an author devotes to writing a book.
I prefer honest reviews for my book, if I can get any. However, marketing is my first priority.

Already fighting the good fight, brother!"
Well done! Thank you. I've now signed up to this.
It really bugs me when I see authors who clearly have fake reviews.
Erego, you don't even have to pay for them either.
I've been invited to a few groups who band together to leave 5* reviews; they simply read other reviews, slightly reword and post. Disgraceful!!
I want HONEST reviews only.
If someone thinks my writing's sh#t then I want to know why. How can I improve? (should I bother continuing writing??)
If someone loves my books then great; it gives me motivation to carry on.
What does a fake reivew give me?
Nuffin! And people are learning to spot the fakes now, and so they're opening themselves up to trolls (and serves them right, not that I condone trolls you understand).
If I've read a book that is less than 3* I will contact the author (as they've probably asked me to read their book anyway), and I will gently advise things like getting a proof reader etc.
Sadly, the only way to truly stop fake reviewers is to stop all reviews; scumbags will always find a way if there's a profit in it for them :-(

Edited: a not too many that made the sentence unclear.
I wouldn't read the book, and I would tell the author why. Like you GG, I don't like it when someone tries to "force" me into a corner.
So, I'd send them their e-mail back, explaining that my reviews are honest, you can either take it or leave it.

Definite deal breaker. This is the main reason I won't review books when other authors ask. I'm an author, not a reviewer. I write reviews of books I enjoyed as a courtesy and not as an obligation. If someone were to request that I not only read for review, but also posts stipulatiins as to what I can and can't say, they would get reported.

It feels like lying for profit to me.

However, my own book has received a couple of 1 and 2 stars (all without any comments), out of over 70 positive reviews, and my feeling is that even Hemingway's, The Old Man and the Sea received 1 and 2 stars - so go figure. Lol Can't please everyone.
First off, I don't finish a book I won't rate at least 3 stars. I chalk it up to being "not my cup of tea".
2nd, I'd like to know how I can "lie for profit" as I seem to have made no money doing this.
Yes, reviews are for readers, and I didn't say I won't post it out of fear of hurting the other authors feelings. I said I won't post it because some people are just starting out. Should I take and rip away their confidence, leave them bleeding out in the gutter? Or should I take the time to point out to them what I liked, didn't like, and help uplift them instead of shoving them under the bus.

Like Christina, I'm an author who writes reviews as a courtesy because I know how much it means to other authors. I do post three stars reviews and when I do, it do because I feel the book still deserves a review. Thing that bothered me may very well be something others will love. Knowing in advance I wouldn't even be able to do that makes me feel I'd be wasting my time. It's not like I don't have plenty of other books to read for which an author wouldn't mind a three. :P

I didn't know you could report them. To whom do you do?

If someone told me what to write I'd refuse a review. Got plenty of other books lined up to review. :)

*I* am the only author I'm protecting.
If I were to go around posting one and two star reviews (I don't post threes only because I am a love it or hate it kind of person) of books, not only am I opening myself up to retalliation reviews, but I will also look like an ass. I read and review books in the same genres that I write. I don't want it to look like I'm deliberately trying to bash my 'competition' so I avoid unnecessary conflict.

I didn't know you could repo..."
If they send you a message through Goodreads you can flag it for abuse.


I strive for honest reviews, both in getting and giving. I don't do review swaps, don't pay for reviews, unless you count book blog tours that include them, but you're not paying the actual readers, just the blog tour organizer.
Hi, by the way, I just joined after seeing this thread on my GR home page :)

First of all, I take offense at being called a liar: I do not post dishonest reviews and I do not provide dishonest feedback.
Second, I don't charge for my reviews, so I'm uncertain how I can be lying for profit.
I also like to think my reviews help both the author and potential readers. The author gets either a review, or a review and my feedback, or just my feedback. The reader gets a fairly detailed review to read and base an opinion on, if I post one at all, which clearly gives genre / book type.

I didn't know y..."
Oh they were clever enough to send by emails with the books. :/
And I agree with your other statement as for reviews. I think that's the policy on Amazon too. Authors can review other authors as long as it's positive reviews. Maybe what I heard is wrong but I'm like you. I'm afraid of sock puppets that can destroy your hard work just because you happened not to like a book. No matter what people say, or think, a lot of 1* can hurt...

keep working hard y'all. that's all we can do.

You are entirely right. A three star for me is a good book, a book I don't regret spending time reading. :)

Hey Mysti! Welcome aboard. Good to see you here. :) I was wondering when you'd decide to come. :P I know.... I could have send an invite, but I also know you're busy and one more group might not have been included in your plans. ;)
Mysti is the kind person who got me in a cool online writing course. I won a free subscription on a Facebook event she had organized. :)
Welcome to the group!

I like how you see it. A three is a good review. It is also someone who took time not only to read a book but also to review the book with his or her fair opinion. I'm happy myself with any reviews that shows up from someone who took their precious time to do so. :)

I agree that a 3* is decent. If you mouse-over 3* on Goodreads it comes up as "I liked it," but on Amazon it is rated as a critical review. Go figure.



Right, yes, block them too. I forgot to mention that. It's really sad the things these shady people and even authors resort to just to get ahead. I've learned a lot of that here on Goodreads. :/
Hiya GG!! Proud to see how well you're doing! I'm glad to be here too. Been following some threads for a while but I don't participate in a lot of groups. It's hard to keep up and I hesitate to join if I know I'm not going to be able to post a lot.

I think I know whom you mean and that's the one I was talking about. :/
Misty, I understand. I have problems following them all too. I end up having to let go of some and only keep up with the more interesting ones. There are only so many hours in a day. :P

As a reader, I find critical reviews more useful than the ones that only say nice things. If there are several bad reviews on a book, I can feel prepared for any "bad" thing I may read in the story.
Christina wrote: "I am an author, not a reviewer."
Same here! I review for the fun of it, for my own benefit. If other readers find my reviews useful in finding books they'll enjoy, that's a bonus.

Apologies for this delayed and scattershot post - I've been away for a day.
J.C.: Sure, any wise author would prefer honest, constructive criticism. But I imagine most would prefer highly critical material to be shared somewhat more privately than on Amazon or Goodreads.
Christina: "Reviews are nice, but no, they are not and should not be treated as a marketing tool."
I beg to differ: if you're not traditionally published, the "received wisdom" is that reviews are vitally important for your marketing.
T.L. wrote: "Sadly, the only way to truly stop fake reviewers is to stop all reviews"
I disagree strongly. Because good people heavily outnumber bad people, if good people put in place methods for dealing with bad people, the damage they do can be reined in. It's how human societies work, after all.
G.G. asked what people do if they're sent a book, but told "Don't post a review unless it's 4 or 5 stars"?
To me, that's clearly another attempt to produce an inflated rating for the book: in my view, it's asking you to help them cheat. Not to mention wasting your time if you didn't especially want to read it anyway and it's not 4/5 stars! I would refuse.
Deidre wrote: "The reviews aren't for the author. They're for the readers."
Again, I don't think it's that simple. In my view, reviews serve both those purposes. And more.
Chikamso wrote: "I flagged it to goodreads and I received a reply saying that the individual's account had been deleted. Two days later, I received the same message from the same account."
That's disturbing: do you mean the Goodreads people said they deleted the account, but didn't?! What's the point in reporting them, if nothing happens? Could you explain a bit more?
Mysti recommended blocking them. But if you do that, how can you check that they've been put out of action so they can't continue doing harm from that account? How would you know to chase up to find out why their account hadn't been deleted?
BTW, they did not contact me via Goodreads, but via my blog, http://toeinthebookocean.blogspot.com.... In the email, he claimed to have 30 Goodreads accounts.
I find the topic of reviews very interesting, and I'm enjoying the discussion.
The whole question of the best practice for giving reviews is interesting. How do you define "best" though - should it be best for the readers? Best for the author? Best for both together?
My point of view is that if a book is such that I'd only rate it as two stars or less, I believe the book's "goodness" would be pretty obvious to most readers anyway - they'll see that for themselves if the bother to "look inside". So a 1 or 2 star rating does little for the readers, but it would probably hurt the author if posted publicly. So my plan is to provide such feedback to the author privately, if possible. But if the author has no means of contact, I'd not bother reviewing. But all that said, since I have so far only reviewed books I've chosen to buy, I so far haven't had the necessity of dealing with the issue.
But what I had hoped, when I kicked off this topic, was that we would focus on the problem which I see as far more significant: that of fake reviews, since:
1) that practice undermines the whole value of reviews, and
2) reviews could be the key to evolving self-publishing/indie-publishing to provide better books and better discovery of books than what the traditional publishing industry manages to achieve!
Which reminds me of Christina's note: "As for the original email claiming to have sock puppet accounts here on Goodreads, yes Luke, you absolutely need to forward that to Goodreads. I'm sure there's a contact us link from your dashboard. "
Sorry for being a dope, but I just spent 10 mins looking for any sort of "contact us" link (on my author dashboard), but failed. Could you hit me with a clue stick, please? :-)
But it does I suppose bring the topic back to what I wanted to discuss: how we might defend ourselves from this practice. I'm happy to forward the email to the appropriate person, as soon as I find out who that is, but what's the next step?
Let's assume he hasn't used an email address linked to any of his Goodreads accounts. How can we discover who he is, and better still, the identities of his 30 fake Goodreads users, so their reviews can be reported and deleted, and the authors of the books reviews contacted and informed that by buying reviews they are damaging the ecosystem (and they should stop buying reviews), and that the reviews are being reported and deleted?
I don't really want to buy his services, just to perhaps ask him to make sure to mention the something specific enough to allow GR to identify his reviews. I don't want to dirty my reputation by buying reviews, even if it's just for a short period. And he may not even be doing reviews: he might just be trawling for credit card details to try to abuse.
I don't have a good answer, which is why I hope we can collectively brainstorm some.
Here's some possibly-controversial ideas:
Idea 1? Should Goodreads require users to somehow authenticate themselves as an individual (e.g. a credit card or something), purely for use of identification if they begin doing evil stuff?
Idea 1? Should Goodreads allow users who so choose, to authenticate themselves in some way (as above), but only use that to flag the reviews of such people as "true individuals" (i.e. to create more trustable reviews)?
There might be better "identity keys" than a credit card, though I don't think such technology has been fully developed yet. I think it relates to trust networks and anonymisable identity, and is still an an area of research...
And again, apologies for this long post.

I received a PM from someone who was offering to give reviews and it was clearly from sock puppets. I didn't respond because like you I didn't want any, but also because if I was afraid that if I said so there might be retaliation. Anyway, that account was deleted a few hours later. I assume someone else had reported him/her. Now I don't know about his puppets.
Anyway, all that to say that in a case like that unless you can clearly hit a button report, I wouldn't dare answer that person. :/
IDEA 1: No. Definitely no. I'm tired of having to beg my husband to use his credit card just to get to places. I use Amazon gift cards and I still have to have a valid credit card to use them.
I know I'm probably the exception not having a card to my name but I also know that the minimum age here is too low for them having a credit card. They'd have to ask their parents and what if their parents are here too? Of course, some people have dozens of credit cards, so that might not stop sock puppets. :P
But aside from that, this would become another place for bad people to hack. :/
Sorry, from my answers you must now realize I'm a 'chicken' and don't trust much. :P

:-) Fair enough, though. I, too, am concerned at the prospect of sock puppets being used for retaliation.
I still feel that there must be ways to defend ourselves, if we're clever enough to think them up. Some form of ability to trust that a person is a real person, and to discover if an identity is just a shadow of a single source, would be immensely valuable, and I think would go a long way to solving the problem...

It made me angry. This person offered, for a small sum, to "promote" my book with "honest" well-written reviews, with whatever star-rating I instructed. (I guess only a small percentage of the recipients of such an email would fail to see he's offering to lie as much as requested, in his "honest" reviews. But presumably, a small percentage is enough to keep him in business...)
Leaving aside, for the moment, the whole point that people like this are undermining the whole system of reviewing, and devaluing them for everyone - he also said he had 30 goodreads identities which he could use to post the reviews. The range of services he offers is rather shocking.
This seems like something worth investigating by Goodreads. Is there someone at Goodreads I should forward the email to, for further investigation? Should I post it here? If so: including his email address, or not? (I guess: not.)
But let me get back to the main point of this message...
It would be hugely valuable to all authors to develop some methodology or practice that could root out and reveal the people behind these kinds of practices, including the exposure and deletion of the phoney reviews.
So... what should be the next step?
BTW, I'm well aware that a bunch of sock-puppet accounts on Goodreads could be used just as dishonestly to post fake but plausible bad reviews of good books, if the operator of the scam got angry. So it'd be nice to factor that consideration into the planning of any response.
I was in a web chat about Self-Publishing in early December, hosted by the Australian Society of Authors, and at one point I mentioned my suspicion about how many books had up to 100 reviews with an average rating of 4.5-or-above stars. Here's a summarised excerpt [Note: I have removed the direct quotes, as I had not first obtained permission. I've replaced it with my own summary.]
I had asked: "What about tips on getting reviews? I don't understand how some people seem to have hundreds of reviews, with average star-ratings of 4.5 out of 5. Seems a bit odd to me."
Several of the participants replied; stating that people pay for online reviews on Amazon and Goodreads ("Bangalore!"); that getting reviews can be difficult even in traditional publishing with a marketing team; that there are genuine reviews around, but things are changing and reviews are moving more towards being done by readers - and, unfortunately, paid-for reviews. A couple of participants were puzzled as to why anyone would bother paying for a review; a couple were as surprised as I was, to learn of the practice.
But wouldn't it be nice to evolve some antibodies to deal with this kind of social infection? Please put your thinking caps on!
To arms!