Sci-Fi & Fantasy Girlz discussion
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What are you reading now?
Sounds very interesting! Let us know how you liked it when you finish.
Just finished Robin Hobb's
.The first 3/4th were a pretty good fantasy, the last quarter blew me away (it was exciting, action packed, and treacherous). The first 3/4th contained boy growing up and I'm usually not as keen about kid protagonists (starts at age 6) then I am about adults. By the end he was 15/16 and the story had taken off amazingly. I'll definitely reach for the next one in the series.
I just finished The Edge of the Woods, a YA fantasy with a strong and unusually sensible heroine. Enjoyed it very much (review here).I also read The Screaming Staircase yesterday after my little boy recommended it ("it's awesome and really creepy, Mum"). It was a lot of fun, and had a good strong female lead. He doesn't seem to care or even notice whether the books he reads have male or female leads, and I hope he stays that way.
Marina wrote: "He doesn't seem to care or even notice whether the books he reads have male or female leads, and I hope he stays that way. "You got a smart kid there!
I get these occasional obsessions....My current obsession is Gilgamesh. The story is fascinating in and of itself, but I'm also interested in the scholarship around the story. The discovery of the tablets upon which it was written, the variations in the way scholars have translated it, as well as the interpretation of the story, it's role in Western literature and how it works as an antecedent for pretty much the whole of Western literary canon.
So, I've got my hands on a couple translations of that story, and I've been scouring whatever on-line sources I can. It's a sickness, really.
Gary, I'm really interested in that mythology, too. If you end up with a single "best rec" that you'd list here, I'd be grateful!
I'll probably do a whole write up (though I might stick it all into a single review.)However, if you want a place to start, I'd go for Stephen Mitchell's version. It's the most recent that I know of, and it isn't really a translation so much as it is an "faithful adaptation" if you will. He sticks more or less to the tone of the original poem, keeping things like the chorus-like repetition of certain phrases, but picks and chooses a bit from various sources in order to make the most accessible version of the story that he can. For purists, that's something of a blasphemy, and they have a point... but I think it made for a quite acceptable and entertaining version.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/2...
I have plenty of quibbles and critiques (he doesn't bother with Tablet 12 at all, for example) but he was going for a particular kind of presentation of the story as a whole, and everything is geared towards that product.
Mitchell also did his research, so the bibliography in the back of his version is also a good reference for Gilgamesh texts. Personally, I sometimes find bibliographies as/more fascinating than the actual texts, and his is particularly tantalizing....
That's on my tbr list. I look forward to hearing what you have to say about it.I haven't done any research on it but I know some have mentioned here and there about the closeness of Gilgamesh and Enkidu relationship and have had discussions about where its a buddy-love type relationship or more of a lover-love relationship. What are your thoughts on this?
Alicja wrote: "I haven't done any research on it but I know some have mentioned here and there about the closeness of Gilgamesh and Enkidu relationship and have had discussions about where its a buddy-love type relationship or more of a lover-love relationship. What are your thoughts on this?"It is an interesting question. The short answer is: I don't know, because it's not stated outright in the text.
The longer answer is: I suspect that 4,500-5,000 years ago when sexuality wasn't as defined and deconstructed as it is these days, a sexual relationship between two fit and sexy men who apparently have a deep personal bond--not to mention commanding roles in society in which they could ignore any social pressure that might or might not have even existed--would very likely have happened sooner or later.
The much longer answer is: The story certainly has a lot of expressed (as opposed to explicit) sex in it. The Mitchell version is, perhaps, rather "earthy" compared to some, though that's largely a matter of the vocabulary. In any particular translation, however, some overt sexual relationships are described.
There is a very strong implication in certain lines that Gilgamesh and Enkidu are more than just friends. After Enkidu dies we sometimes get lines from Gilgamesh about how he loved Enkidu "more than a wife" (again, depending on the translation.) While the dynamics of the husband/wife relationship have always had their vagaries, and it's possible that there's a translation problem with the word "love" from 2,500 years ago, I think most people would understand that line as at least an innuendo. That's not at all the only such comment. In one translation, after Enkidu dies, Gilgamesh covers his face with a veil "like the veil of a bride." Hmm....
With that in mind, though, the expressed sex is--for the most part--hetero. I say "for the most part" because amongst the relationships we get a description of, there are some interesting examples. In Tablet 6, Gilgamesh is propositioned by the goddess of love, Ishtar, but in his arrogance, pride, wisdom and cruelty, Gilgamesh describes her past lovers and the sticky ends to which they came. Amongst those lovers are a few humans, but also animals such as a bird, a lion and a stallion. Plus, she has a tendency to turn her former lovers into animals when she tires of them... and they all tend to wind up dying in some ironic way or another.
So, given the range of sexuality that is expressed in the story, it would seem odd if the two heroes were lovers, but that aspect of their relationship was taken as read. Given the amount of text dedicated to titillating details, it seems like a little man-on-wildman action would make as much sense as anything.
On the other hand... female sexuality and its civilizing role is an express theme of the story, so the concept of male-male sexuality might be taken "as read" simply because it was assumed, and deemed of relatively little significance. After all, there is a lot of wrestling going on, and the two heroes do apparently at least share the occasional priestess.... To paraphrase our modern concept: what happens in Uruk stays in Uruk.
E.J. wrote: "Thanks for that, Gary!"
You're welcome.
Gary wrote: "Alicja wrote: "I haven't done any research on it but I know some have mentioned here and there about the closeness of Gilgamesh and Enkidu relationship and have had discussions about where its a bu..."Haha! Love your assessment Gary. In modern Western world we love our labels because they put people into neat little categories that can be easily defined. Not only did ancient cultures have a variety of vastly different definition but we even can't seem to fit into our own labels. I know many people are confused by bisexuals but then there are those who consider themselves straight but experimented in college and I've even known someone who considered themselves a homosexual who (after years of gay sex) decided to experiment with an opposite-sex partner and apparently enjoyed himself but only with that one single person. Also, a lot of the time in ancient cultures wives were to have an raise kids, property, while the true bonds existed between men (comrades, teacher/student, etc.) and through text we know at least some included same-sex relations. It all gets very complex and it seems that the discussion of sexuality in that story must be complex as well. Seems like a fascinating study of an ancient culture. Thanks!
Gary wrote: "I get these occasional obsessions....My current obsession is Gilgamesh. The story is fascinating in and of itself, but I'm also interested in the scholarship around the story. The discovery of ..."
In high school, I first read Gilgamesh and that really turned me on to epic poetry. I'm particularly love Gawain and the Green Knight.
Could you tell us a bit about the research discoveries you've made concerning Gilgamesh?
Gary wrote: ."Thanks Gary. I'm going to have to read that story again! Turns them into animals and then offs them, huh. Intriguing. Your description reminds of this famous ancient Greek dinner party. In Greek dinner parties, only men were invited and they had a flute girl on hand, to well play her and their flutes. Anyway, at this particular party the subject of conversation was what's the best kind of relationship. One guy argued for Platonic (maybe it was Plato himself, I don't remember), another for the love of one's wife (heterosexual), and one for gay relationships. There was a fourth guy, I think, because the parties always had even numbers of men at them, but I can't recall his take.
Cynthia wrote: "Gary wrote: ."Thanks Gary. I'm going to have to read that story again! Turns them into animals and then offs them, huh. Intriguing. Your description reminds of this famous ancient Greek dinner par..."
You are thinking of The Symposium by Plato. It has been a long time since I read it but I think it warrants for a re-read.
Thanks so much for the reference. I've never actually read it, just heard a summary on the boobtube (or perhaps it should be "nutstube". There's an e-book version, so I'm looking forward to the read! Ah the joys of educated conversation.
Cynthia wrote: "Could you tell us a bit about the research discoveries you've made concerning Gilgamesh?"I'll definitely post up something. At present, my tentative introduction to the review of Mitchell's version goes like this:
The story about the oldest story in the world is not a very old story.A little wordy (a fault of mine...) but that's the gist of it. I might run into the character cap on Goodreads reviews if I want to do this thing justice. We'll see.
One of the fascinating things about the oldest story in the world is how contemporary it is. Yes, the plot, characters and storytelling have antecedents that remain important to readers today, but what I mean by contemporary is that the discovery, translation and publication of the Gilgamesh (versions of which are also sometimes called Gilgamesh the King or The Epic of Gilgamesh) did not occur until the mid-1800s. The first tablets upon which the story was written were found in 1853. The first translation took another 20 years. But those first tablets were incomplete, having been damaged over the millennia. While even the preservation of that first copy might seem miraculous over that length of time, more versions of the tale would be found pressed and fired into clay then buried and unearthed by modern archeologists and treasure seekers, thousands of years after the story of the first great king had been lost and forgotten. That scholarship and discovery continues to this day.
But the important thing to know about Gilgamesh is that given the age of the epic, its rediscovery is a very modern tale. Scholarship and study of Charles Dickens' work is, in fact, much older and extensive. The tale of the world's first great king can be seen as the predecessor to any number of heroic journey stories. Clear elements of it appear in works ranging from The Bible to Star Trek. Yet, a translation of that work in English has yet to see its sesquicentennial.
Despite it having been lost for so long, I have no doubt that Gilgamesh is a story that has influenced storytelling itself. It's dynamics are so familiar that they are instantly recognizable to modern readers. They are part of our collective unconscious.
Gary wrote: "... At present, my tentative introduction to the review of..."Thanks so much! I would only cut the word "But" which starts a paragraph and sentence. It isn't needed and in most formal English, starting a sentence with but is incorrect. Your piece is not wordy! I love words! That's why I read. That's why I converse. I hate this contemporary push to make everything sound like baby talk. It great to have something like this to engage us all in smartening up rather than dumbing down.
A question though--I thought the Summarian tale of Innana was older than Gilgimesh? Am I wrong in thinking that? If you haven't read it, I think you'll love it.
Cynthia wrote: "Thanks so much! I would only cut the word "But" which starts a paragraph and sentence. It isn't needed and in most formal English, starting a sentence with but is incorrect."But I like to start sentences with a conjunction....
In any case, it's a first draft (I just copied-pasted from my journal/notes) so the structure will probably change a bit. The "And" and "But" at the beginning of the sentence is a problem for some folks. These days it's something of a stylistic choice, though as a grammarian I can see how folks might object. I'll bear it in mind for whatever I wind up posting on Goodreads.
A question though--I thought the Summarian tale of Innana was older than Gilgimesh? Am I wrong in thinking that? If you haven't read it, I think you'll love it. "
I'm not familiar with Innana (though they are both, apparently, in/around Uruk) so I looked that one up. According to Wikipedia Gilgamesh is up to 26th century BC, though tablets continued to be made for several centuries. Enmerkar and the Lord of Aratta (if that's the story you mean) is 21st century BC.
Edit: Here are the links to the WP articles from which I got that:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilgamesh
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enmerka...
That's wildly old for Gilgimesh. I'm referring to Innana's Descent to the Underworld http://etcsl.orinst.ox.ac.uk/section1...
It's part of other stories. I don't know if it is the Enmerkar story you mention. I'm going to be a bit wicked here and mention that I wrote an analysis of Innana's Descent to the Underworld in my book Vector Theory and the Plot Structures of Literature and Drama. I give the full story of Innana's Descent to the Underworld. Don't worry; it's not like my posts. It's all grammatical and spelled correctly.
I'll have a look, Cynthia. At first glance... very interesting. It pairs up with Tablet 12 of the Gilgamesh story on a weird level.
Have you guys read Snow Crash? It brings together cyberpunk and Summarian mythology (which I know nothing about other than in that book). I think you'd both enjoy the read.
Wow, you guys make me feel like I'm not using my brain enough!At the moment I'm reading three books: Irradiated by S Elliot Brandis, a novella called Confronting the Demon by Ciara Ballintyne (both fellow Aussies), and also rereading Fire by Kristin Cashore.
I'm seeing much more in Fire the second time round. The protagonist is a "monster", ie an unnaturally attractive woman with magic that can lure or control others. Her magical beauty feels more like a curse to her as she grapples with men's reactions to her. Most want to possess her in some way -- marry her, rape her, kill her. Few can get past the magical allure to see the real person. I'm seeing it as a metaphor for womanhood in general.
Marina wrote: "Wow, you guys make me feel like I'm not using my brain enough!At the moment I'm reading three books: Irradiated by S Elliot Brandis, a novella called [book:Confronting the Demon|1..."
Fire does sound like an interesting concept, how is the execution?
Alicja wrote: "Fire does sound like an interesting concept, how is the execution?"Not bad, actually. The plot concerns court intrigues and trying to avert a civil war, so her issues with her identity aren't what the story is about per se, but the philosophical questions certainly add a deeper dimension than your usual coming-of-age story.
I've reviewed it here.
Marina wrote: "Alicja wrote: "Fire does sound like an interesting concept, how is the execution?"Not bad, actually. The plot concerns court intrigues and trying to avert a civil war, so her issues with her iden..."
Great review! I like the concept but even if it reflects a part of the woman's experience, it isn't the whole. Don't forget the invisible women, whether they are older or not considered pretty, there are women out there who get ignored, erased out of existence in the movies (we've got the unbpretty men in the movies sometimes but never the women, and even when we have older men the older women in movies look like they're 30).
Sorry, I went off on a bit of a rant.
Rant away! Sad but true that life for women is more about looks -- whether they have 'em or not -- than it is for men. There are plenty of parts for ordinary-looking actors, but precious few for ordinary-looking actresses.Fire was interesting because it touched on this -- it's not something that comes up a lot in fantasy.
Marina wrote: "Rant away! Sad but true that life for women is more about looks..."I agree. Have you seen the documentary Miss Representation?
Description from their site:
It explores women’s under-representation in positions of power and influence and challenges the limited and often disparaging portrayals of women in media.
They explore several related topics, but they also talk about how for women on media it's more about their looks.
I believe the documentary is on Netflix.
No, I haven't. Sounds interesting. Depressing, but interesting.
Great video!I have to admit, I'm very reluctant to read another book of the Graceling series. A lot of things in the first book were too choppy for me and you can't fix the world building in a sequel or it will look odd. How is it that YA books nowadays give you the feeling that they're incomplete? Is YA an excuse for an author to not try anymore? The YA genre certainly didn't stop Diana Wynne Jones from writing amazing books. :(
Please don't misunderstand, it's only that this makes me sad. A good book is supposed to be enjoyable by people of any age, no matter if it was intended for children or not.
Um, sorry for those two paragraph. This is a topic that upsets me a bit. Really. Anyway, I started reading a new book today:
So far, no female characters in the main cast (I'm on page 67) but one can hope for the best. The narrative is really funny. I guess this will be a rather quick read.
Sparrowlicious wrote: "Great video!I have to admit, I'm very reluctant to read another book of the Graceling series. A lot of things in the first book were too choppy for me and you can't fix the world building in a se..."
Sometimes it seems like YA is treated as literature lite, meaning that they simplify everything from world building to characters and everything else. I get its meant for younger readers but I think many underestimate what a 14 year old can actually understand.
Yes! ):I mean, look at the Earthsea books, those are intended for young adult readers and the world is rather complex.
Same with Harry Potter: you get a hidden wizard world that is rather complex, has its own politics, its own lore, etc.
Sure, kids at first might not understand ALL the themes in these books but there won't be a problem for them to read about complex worlds and characters. By the way, I always found complex characters easier to remember. A character who might have a name but nothing to remember them by slips my mind easier than a character who is unique among other characters, even if they might have alike-sounding names or not (a constant problem in many fantasy novels).
Topic:
Finally reading
.While the plot isn't new, the author sure knows how to make the best of it. At least that's what I'm thinking so far (about 75 pages into the book).
I just finished
yesterday. Wonderful book. :)
Carolyn F. wrote: "I just finished yesterday. Wonderful book. :)"I read that ages ago, and I remember really digging it. Maybe time for a reread....
Gary wrote: "Carolyn F. wrote: "I just finished yesterday. Wonderful book. :)"I read that ages ago, and I remember really digging it. Maybe time for a reread...."
I reread both the Crystal Singer and Killashandra a while back. I discovered that I much preferred The Crystal Singer, and that it's stood the test of (my) time better. Haven't read the third one for years. Probably should. I remember not particularly liking it, but that was years ago, and things may have changed.
Sparrowlicious wrote: "Cynthia wrote: "."Well, it takes some time to get used to the infodumps. I'm on page 11..."An annoying, viscous, boring, sexist book with a measely thin mystery to it."
I guess that's about 'The ..."
I really liked The King's Peace, must go back and revisit it. When I have time...
The Crystal Singer was probably my favourite Anne McCaffrey after the Pern books. I don't remember much about Killashandra by comparison. Guess I didn't reread it as much. She was a good character though.At the moment I'm rereading Elizabeth Moon's The Speed of Dark. I was raving about it to my daughter the other day, trying to get her interested, and talked myself into rereading it instead. It gives a fascinating insight into the way an autistic person's mind works and deals very thoughtfully with its themes of identity.
The Speed of Dark looks awesome!Haven't read any McCaffrey yet, will have to do so when I get back to the States.
I love seeing what you all are reading, there is just so much awesome stuff that always makes me want to pick a book up.
Alicja wrote: "Haven't read any McCaffrey yet, will have to do so when I get back to the States."I really get a kick out of her work. You have to bear in mind if you start with the Pern novels in the order that they were written that she was transitioning into sci-fi from being a kind of workaday romance novelist. Those books are the literary equivalent of factory work. They're hammered out from a standard framework en masse, and shipped out like the pre-processed products that gets heated and sold as fast food. Dragonflight suffers from that transition as it was pulled together from a set of short stories, and the cracks show in certain places....
Back in high school we had to present a book report to the class. Everyone else picked mainstream books, and I did Dragonquest, which was my favourite novel at the time. I got a lot of looks of bafflement -- why do they have such funny names? There's too many characters!I adored the Pern books back then, but I haven't reread them in a long time. I'm almost afraid to, in case they turn out not to be the wonderful creations I remember.
Gary wrote: "You have to bear in mind if you start with the Pern novels in the order that they were written that she was transitioning into sci-fi from being a kind of workaday romance novelist."Which book would you recommend as a starting point to someone who has never read any McCaffrey? I wanted to read the Pern novels but I read somewhere that they tend to be called "Dragonriders of Porn" so I'm not sure anymore.
Yoly wrote: "Which book would you recommend as a starting point to someone who has never read any McCaffrey?"I read White Dragon first and then books 1 & 2 as "prequels" if you will, and that worked out fine, but it was more or less by accident. I just happened on Book 3 first. Were I to have the "first read" over again, I would just go in order even if Book 1 is a little rough.
Yoly wrote: "I wanted to read the Pern novels but I read somewhere that they tend to be called "Dragonriders of Porn" so I'm not sure anymore."
Heh. I hadn't heard that one. Cute.
There is a good amount of sex in them, and the context is more than a little questionable. If you're unaware, when the dragons mate (view spoiler) In Dragonflight after one such encounter, the lead male character (F'lar) is feeling guilty about the circumstances of his first time with the lead female character (Lessa) and with that context, she wrote this sentence: "He had been a considerate and gentle bedmate ever since, but, unless Ramoth and Mnementh were involved, he might as well call it rape."
These days, that's a trigger word for a lot of folks--and when they read that sentence (which is, honestly, awkwardly written) out of the context of the whole paragraph they freak out. But, again, bear in mind, McCaffrey was coming right out of writing for the bodice ripper industry, and her stories get a lot more equanimity after that first book.
So, with that proviso, I'd say start with Book 1.
I also read The White Dragon first & don't think the series suffers from reading it that way. If you end up not liking McCaffrey's style or world building, then you've read one of the best of the series.Personally, I'd read White Dragon and then Crystal Singer which represents McCaffrey mature writing.
Just my two pence.
-Em
OMG,
is awesome! And I'm picky regarding my Alexander portrayals.
Yesterday I finished reading All You Need Is Kill I really liked the story, and I was pleasantly surprised that it wasn't the typical "dude" book. The main character is a guy but there are "other important" female characters.
Another option would be to read Dragonsong first - it is out of sequence, but it shows an alternative viewpoint in the same world, and refers to the other stories, and even features their characters, but it's definitely more PG, if you like.Menolly was probably my favourite character in the whole series.
I'm currently reading Three Bags Full - or actually the original German version of it since I don't need a translation. :)It's a mystery/crime story with sheep as the main characters. They're not extremely humanized but not as animal als Jack London's animal character either.
The plot is a bit slow because you mostly only get what the sheep witness and often they don't understand what they hear (they understand human language but there are of course things they have no idea about).
Btw, my first experience with Pern was a 'three in one' book that had, well, book 1-3. The world is quite interesting, in my opinion. Also, the 'telepathic dragons' concept works quite well.
Sci-Fi & Fantasy Girlz
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An annoying, viscous, boring, sexist book with a measely thin mystery to it."
I guess that's about 'The Name of the Rose'? Yes, the characters are absolutely sexist. I had lots of trouble with this book and I'm glad I eventually finished it.
As for the mystery: (view spoiler)[At some point I thought the blind guy was the perfect culprit if it wasn't for his, well, blindness. Guess I was right all along? (hide spoiler)]
Err, anyway back to the actual topic:
I started
Hmm. Well, at least she's a badass. I guess.