To Kill A Mockingbird Discussion, Part Two/Book as a Whole *SPOILERS*

[Paula W]

Alexw wrote: "Am also through Part 1 and reminds me of Tom Sawyer growing up. Surprised on the fixation with the Radley family who has gone to great lengths to be left alone. The title of the book is revealed on..."

No, I gave me the ick factor because of all the controversy surrounding the book.

[Cynda]

Personal and Family Honor is a big deal in the American South, maybe especially as we move back in time. The Radley family was shocked by the violent actions of their son Arthur "Boo" Radley. Family pride is indicated by the regal name "Arthur". The family shame is deepened by Arthur's decidedly unregal behavior. They just want to left alone in their shame.

Shame is something we in the 21st century do not understand or speak about much. It was something much referenced into the mid 20th century in the American South. I grew up and live in a Texas city where the American South meets the American Southwest. I lived in Mississippi for two years.

[Cynda]

Yes Alexw. I read Go Set a Watchman. I do not reccommend reading it if you love To Kill a Mockingbird. There is no need to. To Kill a Mockingbird has much information about the American South. An intelligent child's perspective still tells much.

[Paula W]

Cynda wrote: "Personal and Family Honor is a big deal in the American South, maybe especially as we move back in time. The Radley family was shocked by the violent actions of their son Arthur "Boo" Radley. Famil..."

As someone who was born, raised, and still lives in the Louisiana/Mississippi/Alabama area (have lived in MS for 30 years), I have a lot to say about this. There is no shame at all with many of these people. It is pride. They are very VERY proud of being part of the Confederacy, even though the Confederacy lost the war and was on the wrong side of history. They are so proud of if, they put confederate flags on their yards and their cars and get mad as hell when you tell them it’s racist.

Also, southern families tend to be very protective of their “crazy” family members. Say a word against them, and someone will beat you up or show up at your front door with a gun.

[Cynda]

I only lived there a short time. You are right to know better about the Deep South.

My understanding/read: Pride and Shame are different faces of the same coin. . . . . But that is more my understanding of the Human Condition rather than Southern Culture.

[Savita]

Chapter 3 : The cootie incident was so ... ugh 😠 , on first thought ! But , on reconsidering , I felt sorry for Ewell . ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Ewells had been the disgrace of Maycomb for three generations. None of them had done an honest day's work in his recollection ... They were people , but they lived like animals ... They were being given the chance to get educated , but they were refusing this splendid opportunity to come out of their blindness.... to uplift their blind souls 🤔 . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆ Going through life without education is like passing through this earth without ( to borrow a phrase from a radio jockey 's speech ) seeing the sun , the moon and the stars .

[Paula W]

In the scene where Maudie talks about replanting her azaleas (a very tough flowering bush found all over the south, well known for living in less than ideal conditions - some symbolism by the author showing beautiful things in a less than ideal environment), she says something like her azaleas would be the envy of the Bellingraths. This made me smile. Just outside of Mobile, Alabama, there is a tourist attraction of the home and gardens of Walter and Bessie Bellingrath. It is 65 acres of plants and flowers, something blooming in every season. It has been open to the public since the ‘30s. My parents took my 2 sisters and me there lots of times while I was young and I have fond memories.

Here’s the website, with pictures and the history of the place. The pictures don’t really do it justice. It is a gorgeous place. https://bellingrath.org/

[Savita]

Paula W wrote: "In the scene where Maudie talks about replanting her azaleas (a very tough flowering bush found all over the south, well known for living in less than ideal conditions - some symbolism by the autho..."

I had a look at the pictures , Paula . The flowers are so very pretty, pleasant.... so gorgeous 😍! They've shown them season by season . I especially loved the November flowers- such a colorful pattern ! A thing of beauty is, indeed , a joy forever !
I enjoyed listening to the history of the Bellingrath home . Interesting and marvelous !
Thanks for posting !

[Savita]

Chapter 11 / page 115 : ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Reference: Atticus is fighting the legal battle for Tom Robinson, against Ewell . Atticus says to his daughter , " Scout , I couldn't go to church and worship God if I didn't try to help that man . " And , then , " The one thing that doesn't abide by the majority rule is a person's conscience . "
I , also , love how Atticus handles the Mrs Dubose's camellia bushes ' incident . There is so much maturity and kindness in Atticus . I have become an absolute fan of Atticus ! (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

[Cynda]

The name Atticus was intentionally chosen name for the lawyer. Here are two quick bits of background:

* Atticus means "from Attica" which is the region where Athens was located. Athens was a place of education and of government, a seat of power.

* Atticus of the story is educated, qualified lawyer who serves the county, the seat of power in the region/state of Alabama.

Lawyers by their very natures use rhetoric, a proof process developed in ancient times for court presentation/argumentation.

[Cynda]

Yet rhetoric meant so much more by the 20th century. Calpurnia uses rhetoric too. She uses language to learn, use, to fit in, to make others comfortable. Calpurnia learned to read when she was at The Landing, learning from the Bible, a source of wisdom recognized by many in the Bible Belt of which Alabama is a part.

When Calpurnia takes Scout and Jem to church with her, Scout notices that Calpurnia uses a less formal way of speech. When Scout questions Calpurnia for talking in folksier way at church with a troublemaker, Calpurnia says that it is not necessary to tell everything you know. . . . .So on that note, I bow out.

[Cynda]

Well. Scout is also a rhetorician who knows how to charm an audience. When the Scout recognizes Mr Cunningham as the father of Walter, she says "Hey" and compliments Walter Cunningham to his father and reminds Mr Cunningham that Atticus helps Mr Cunningham with an entailment. A very young rhetorician reminds an angry group of neighbors that they really are neighbors who rely on each other.

[Paula W]

For the majority of the US, the daily 3 meals are called breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It can be different in some parts of the south. In chapter 3, Scout refers to the noon meal as dinner. So, this part of Alabama is a place where the meals are referred to as breakfast, dinner, and supper. What to call the 3 daily meals is contentious even amongst southerners, with only breakfast being the thing always agreed on, 😂😂

[Savita]

Cynda wrote: "The name Atticus was intentionally chosen name for the lawyer. Here are two quick bits of background:

* Atticus means "from Attica" which is the region where Athens was located. Athens was a plac..."

Oh , I see ! This is very interesting indeed ! Thanks for posting , Cynda !
The more I read about Atticus , the bigger fan I become of him . At present I am reading about the court scene .

[Savita]

Cynda wrote: "Well. Scout is also a rhetorician who knows how to charm an audience. When the Scout recognizes Mr Cunningham as the father of Walter, she says "Hey" and compliments Walter Cunningham to his father..."

Yes , that was impressive and touching !

[Savita]

Paula W wrote: "For the majority of the US, the daily 3 meals are called breakfast, lunch, and dinner. It can be different in some parts of the south. In chapter 3, Scout refers to the noon meal as dinner. So, thi..."

Yes , I have noticed this in other novels as well , but can't remember specifically which ? I wonder whether I came across ' breakfast , dinner and supper ' in some English novels as well 🤔 ? Jane Eyre ? Sherlock Holmes ?

[Linda R,]

In the 1950's, in Missouri, My grand parents farm called the three meals a day breakfast, dinner and supper. It probably has as much to do with the time as the place.

[Paula W]

Maybe you’re right. It is still very much the thing to say in Mississippi in 2023, though. People are serious about their supper! Lol

[Alexw]

Through Chapter 10 in which Atticus shoots the rabid dog. Does shooting the rabid dog show that it is all right to kill if you are being threatened or that it is just another adventure in a small town? Did it surprise you that Atticus is the best shot in the county?

[Paula W]

Alexw wrote: "Through Chapter 10 in which Atticus shoots the rabid dog. Does shooting the rabid dog show that it is all right to kill if you are being threatened or that it is just another adventure in a small t..."

I saw it as a lesson for Scout. She has mentioned how Atticus is getting older, but she witnesses him protecting the town (and the town relying on him for protection) in what she sees as an act of bravery with the gun and his marksmanship. She will later learn that Atticus doesn’t see bravery in weapons or bravado. He is brave in a different kind of way. In this same section, Atticus praises Mrs. Dubose for her bravery even though she is awful to the children and as racist as anyone in the town. It confuses our narrator Scout and causes her to think of people as a bit more complex than she originally believed.

[Savita]

I have reached chapter 19 / page 212 . The court proceedings are getting more and more interesting . I am completely with ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Atticus (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

[Paula W]

Savita wrote: "I have reached chapter 19 / page 212 . The court proceedings are getting more and more interesting . I am completely with ☆☆Beware Spoilers [spoilers removed] ☆☆"

Mayella Ewell can bite my ass.

(view spoiler)[The chapter with Mayella’s testimony kills me every time. Although seen from Scout’s perspective where she’s simply telling us the exchange she heard in court and probably doesn’t understand much of it, adult readers of her narrative understand what’s going on here. Mayella has been sexually abused by her father, probably for years. Her father caught her in the house with a black man and beat her, then he told the sheriff that the black man raped his daughter. I empathize with victims of domestic violence and sexual assault (I have been a victim of both), but it is very hard to empathize with Mayella here because she is so mean and vicious and snarling while defending her father. She feels absolutely no remorse about sending this innocent man to die to protect her own pride or her father’s pride - though they have nothing to be proud of; they are seen as trash in the community and no one would ever believe anything they had to say if it weren’t against a black man. (hide spoiler)]

[Savita]

Paula W wrote: "Alexw wrote: "Through Chapter 10 in which Atticus shoots the rabid dog. Does shooting the rabid dog show that it is all right to kill if you are being threatened or that it is just another adventur..."

It's commendable how compassionate and understanding Atticus is towards fretful and racist Mrs Dubose .

[Cynda]

I have seen and heard over and over how different people respond/react to being brutalized. I hear their stories all the time at cofeeshops, at bus stops, in medical waiting rooms. When people hurt, they respond/react in ways that help them survive. Both Tom Robinson and Mayella Violet have been brutalized. Tom Robinson has chosen the path of compassion to deal with his pain, and that compassion leads to his and his family's downfall. Mayella Robinson has chosen to be angry, to lash out which causes yet more destruction for her and the children, her siblings.. The courtroom, the town, the county are all traumatized.

In writing this novel, Harper Lee presented two extreme end results of brutality. Harper Lee noted the extremes, described them, and has let the natural? or expected? or usual? end results of compassion and lashing out. It seems that Harper Lee/her narrator/both are describing just how dangerous is human brutality. This novel is not just a showdown between Mayella Violet and Tom Robinson, it is also a show of how human brutality does not work, that brutality is a force that just continues to roll into self-destruction for individuals, families, communities. And only the children--and sometimes old ladies--cry.

[Cynda]

Here is the solution that Harper Lee and her narrator seem to be proposing:
Stay Curious.
Listen to the Stories.
Trust Your Heart.
Help Each Other.
Cry Some, and Heal Some.

[Cynda]

I have been angry about what happens in that courtroom. . . . .Then I aged some. Sometimes aging and change happens. It seems inevitable.

[Savita]

Paula W wrote: "Savita wrote: "I have reached chapter 19 / page 212 . The court proceedings are getting more and more interesting . I am completely with ☆☆Beware Spoilers [spoilers removed] ☆☆"

Mayella Ewell can ..."

Hmm ..... so the court scenes are set to become tense . At present , everything is going rather mildly .
I , too, dislike Mayella .

[Savita]

Cynda wrote: "Here is the solution that Harper Lee and her narrator seem to be proposing:
Stay Curious.
Listen to the Stories.
Trust Your Heart.
Help Each Other.
Cry Some, and Heal Some."

Hmm ... so , it's going to be a deeply thought provoking novel . 🤔

[Cynda]

That is a good question Savita. This novel can be read as a memory of a Depression-era Southern childhood where the narrator enjoys her childhood as much as possible while learning a great deal of the world she was born into. Or it can be read as something deeper and darker. Just go with, see what happens for you.

[Cynda]

About Mayella. This is a woman born to a father that brutalizes her, born in a town with no resources for her. She has no guidance of a mother, an aunt, an older sister, a teacher, a preacher's wife, a community's social center.

If Mayella had lived in a city rather than a town, things just maybe maybe maybe have been different for her.

There is no way for her to know better than she does, to be better than she is. Mayella has lived and will likely live a life of misery. I have compassion for her.

The courtroom indicates that Mayella should have known better. She did not. She could not.

[Savita]

Cynda wrote: "That is a good question Savita. This novel can be read as a memory of a Depression-era Southern childhood where the narrator enjoys her childhood as much as possible while learning a great deal of ..."

I see , Cynda . I would very much like to stay tuned to the deeper and darker vein that's becoming apparent in the story and in your and Paula's messages .

[Savita]

Cynda wrote: "About Mayella. This is a woman born to a father that brutalizes her, born in a town with no resources for her. She has no guidance of a mother, an aunt, an older sister, a teacher, a preacher's wif..."

Till now I have been disliking Mayella . But , I will try to see her from your point of view , Cynda . You have Atticus ' compassion and understanding .

[Savita]

Paula W wrote: "Savita wrote: "I have reached chapter 19 / page 212 . The court proceedings are getting more and more interesting . I am completely with ☆☆Beware Spoilers [spoilers removed] ☆☆"

Mayella Ewell can ..."

I am sorry to know of your traumatic experiences , Paula .

[Cynda]

Thank you Savita. That's a lovely compliment.

[Savita]

Cynda wrote: "Thank you Savita. That's a lovely compliment."

Welcome , Cynda ! 😊

[Savita]

I have finished chapter 20 . Atticus ' closing speech was impressive and convincing . ☆☆Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Some Negroes are immoral.... this truth applies to the human race and to no particular race of men ; .... our courts are the great levellers , and in our courts all men are created equal; .... In the name of God , do your duty ( to the jury ) . (hide spoiler)] ☆☆ It becomes so difficult to put away the book when reading time is over 😕 !
I had a laugh when ☆☆ Beware Spoilers (view spoiler)[ Calpurnia appears in the court with an envelope about the children ! 🤭 (hide spoiler)] ☆☆

[Cynda]

🤭

[Michaela]

I only read the first part till now (too many other reads going on), and I asked myself a superficial question that people from the US might know: Why does Scout call her father by his surname Atticus but on the other hand Sir?

I found this scene so sad when (view spoiler)[Scout´s and Jem´s hole in the tree (where obviously Boo put his litte gifts into) was closed with cement by his brother. One of a couple of signs that the mockingbird will at least get hurt. (hide spoiler)]

[Cynda]

Hi Michaela. Atticus is his given name. Sometimes she wants to be more informal with him, and sometimes more formal.

While in many American families children call the parents some version of Mom and Dad, some call each other other things, no disrespect intended, just familiarity.

[Michaela]

Thanks Cyndia! I meant the given name of course. I remember it became common among alternative parents here to let their children call them by their given names about 20 years ago, but it´s not done everywhere.

[Michaela]

Btw some given names remind me of Latin names in Ancient Rome, like Atticus or Calpurnia. Guess it was common then in some families.

[Cynda]

Michaela good reminder. I did leave a note above about Atticus. . . . . Calpurnia was Julius Caesar's wife at the time of his death. She is credited for being wise. She has a strong small part in Shakespeare's play.

[Michaela]

Cynda wrote: "Michaela good reminder. I did leave a note above about Atticus. . . . . Calpurnia was Julius Caesar's wife at the time of his death. She is credited for being wise. She has a strong small part in S..."

I remembered Calpurnia as Caesar´s wife and Atticus as a friend of Cicero´s.
Thanks for adding the info above! I haven´t read much so far in fear of spoilers. ;)

[Cynda]

;-)

[Savita]

Cynda wrote: "Michaela good reminder. I did leave a note above about Atticus. . . . . Calpurnia was Julius Caesar's wife at the time of his death. She is credited for being wise. She has a strong small part in S..."

Michaela , in msg 60 above , Cynda has given the background of the name Atticus .


Interesting , the further information on the names Atticus and Calpurnia .

[Alexw]

Have finished and ready to discuss this classic.

[Michaela]

I read chapters 12 to 15, and found it sad that the children had to experience the seriousness and lack of solidarity of adulthood.

Thanks Savita, I saw the explanations. :)

[Savita]

Michaela wrote: "I read chapters 12 to 15, and found it sad that the children had to experience the seriousness and lack of solidarity of adulthood.

Thanks Savita, I saw the explanations. :)"

Yes , true ! There's more coming . 😒

Welcome , Michaela !

[Savita]

Alexw wrote: "Have finished and ready to discuss this classic."

Alexw , perhaps you could put down some discussion points from this story , with spoiler tags if required ?

[Cynda]

Yes Alexw. We just start discussing whenever we are each ready. At least two here are interested in your thoughts. Spoiler tags can be used but are not necessary--as you feel comfortable.