Crime Detective Mystery Thriller Group discussion
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David Morrell Group Read Marathon
This is a great idea. Not only will we hear what others thought of different books, Mr. Morrell won't get tired of answering questions about one in particular. Have picked mine & will start tomorrow.
Hi Mr. Morrell. My questions are about "The Architecture of Snow". The scenes concerning the marketing/editing of a book were hilarious. Have you faced that kind of pressure....to produce or change a book so it will have "mass appeal"? Do you think it's harder now for new authors to get their big break or to get a second book published if the first one doesn't sell a kabillion copies?Thanks for this novella, I loved the story.
David, I've heard the making of First Blood took a decade or so after you sold the movie rights. Were you involved at all in any of the varied plans after that? How about the movie that Stallone finally made?While I've read a dozen or more of your books, First Blood was the first & has always been my favorite. In 1973, I was a young teen with a 3 day car ride from Colorado to Maryland to endure with limited distractions. I believe I read this book twice during that time. I've read it several more times over the years since then. Thanks!
Sandy wrote: "Hi Mr. Morrell. My questions are about "The Architecture of Snow". The scenes concerning the marketing/editing of a book were hilarious. Have you faced that kind of pressure....to produce or change..."In the early stages of my career, I did experience some of that pressure. But not anymore. The point I wanted to make in "The Architecture of Snow" is that many publishers have taken to looking at books in terms of what the movies would call "high concept." In publishing it's called "the author's platform." After the big mergers that started in the late 1990s, marketing became more important as a factor in whether a ms was accepted. With the e-book revolution, that changed, to a degree, because a beginning author could now self-publish a book if it wasn't obviously marketable. The result is that several hundred thousand e-books are now self-published annually, many of them not edited, alas. "The Architecture of Snow" was written before that e-book revolution, so I couldn't include that extra dimension in the story.
Jim wrote: "David, I've heard the making of First Blood took a decade or so after you sold the movie rights. Were you involved at all in any of the varied plans after that? How about the movie th..."Jim, I spent 3 years writing FIRST BLOOD (still can't believe it was my debut novel). My Master's thesis was on Hemingway's style. I don't write like Hemingway, but what I learned from him was to try to write action as if no one had ever written about it before. No tired phrases such as "A shot rang out." I wanted to see if I could write an action novel that didn't feel like a genre novel. It was published in 1972, and back then, its approach to action as so new that my agent wondered if he could sell it. Fortunately he. The novel sold to a film studio immediately (Columbia, where Richard Brooks was slated to write and directed). But then Columbia sold it to Warner Bros, where Sydney Pollack was going to direct Steve McQueen. But then they realized that McQueen at 45 was too old for the role. After 10 years, Carolco Pictures finally made it. I was consulted by the producers, but I had nothing to do with the actual production. The film reinterprets my character, making him a victim rather than someone who's furious about what the war did to him. But on its own terms, I like the film a lot.
Thank you. While I've always liked the book better, I do like the film, too.The next books I read were the Mortalis. I read them out of order, I think. This was probably due to finding them in my library at different times & I hadn't realized they were part of a series & while I eventually figured it out, I later bought The Covenant of the Flame thinking it was part of that, too. Was I being oblivious or was the idea of them being part of a series downplayed?
Started on Extreme Denial. I remember that it was one of my favorite books. Great thriller from start to finish. I was wondering what gave you the idea to write this book?
Jim wrote: "Thank you. While I've always liked the book better, I do like the film, too.The next books I read were the Mortalis. I read them out of order, I think. This was probably due to finding them in my..."
"Mortalis" is the name of a Ballantine Books crime/suspense imprint. When THE BROTHERHOOD OF THE ROSE, THE FRATERNITY OF THE STONE, and THE LEAGUE OF NIGHT AND FOG were re-released a couple of years ago, readers got the impression that "Mortals" applies to the series. But it doesn't. It's just an accident of publishing. The three books are a trilogy. The idea was that the main characters of the first book and the second book would join forces in the third book, making it a double sequel. I originally thought about writing a fourth book in the series, but the theme of the books is "sons looking for fathers," and when my 15-year-old son Matthew died from a very rare bone cancer, I became a father looking for a son. The earlier theme no longer spoke to me. THE COVENANT OF THE FLAME features the Fraternity of the Stone from the middle book in the trilogy. It's sort of a cousin to the earlier books, which is why I used a similar title. There's a deliberate dangling plot element a the end of THE LEAGUE OF NIGHT AND FOG. I resolved it in a short story THE ABELARD SANCTION, which is available at the end of the current U.S. trade paperback edition of that book and in the e-version also.
Ron wrote: "Started on Extreme Denial. I remember that it was one of my favorite books. Great thriller from start to finish. I was wondering what gave you the idea to write th..."
About EXTREME DENIAL--I lived in Iowa City, IA, for many years, teaching at the university. After my son died from cancer, I decided to move to a place that didn't evoked memories of my son. My wife and I happened to watch en episode of THIS OLD HOUSE on TV. In that episode, an adobe-revival house in Santa Fe, NM, was remodeled. I thought Santa Fe was like Phoenix, but in fact it's in the foothills of the Rocky Mountains at 7,000 feet. My wife and I went to visit there and liked it so much that we moved. That's why I set a novel there. The hero's house is mine, by the way. As to the subject, I was struck by the idea that someone in the government's Witness Relocation Program could live next door to anyone, and the community wouldn't know it. A really bad person coaching Little League, for example, trying to blend. At first, I wrote the book as a friendship between two men who were next door neighbors, one of them suddenly learning that the other is a killer. As the book progressed, I found it more interesting to change the gender of the person in the Relocation Program, so that a romance developed between the two neighbors, making it all the more dramatic when the male learned that the female had a possible criminal past and had perhaps been using him.
Wow. Thanks so much for the explanation. That really makes a lot of sense out of it. I'm not just a sloppy reader. Nice to know. I'm so sorry to hear about your son. I have a couple of my own & can't (don't want to) imagine.I'm going to start reading Last Reveille. I don't have that listed on GR as read, so haven't read it in 8 years. I don't recall it, but a glance at the introduction made it look very interesting.
Mr. Morrell, do you have a writing routine ie. same place or same time of day? And have you ever been surprised by how a book progressed....started out with a clear beginning, middle & end, then for some reason changed direction significantly?
Jim wrote: "Wow. Thanks so much for the explanation. That really makes a lot of sense out of it. I'm not just a sloppy reader. Nice to know. I'm so sorry to hear about your son. I have a couple of my own & can..."Jim, LAST REVEILLE was my first historical novel. A lot of research. It's a short novel, and I would probably expand some of the material if I were writing it now, but at the time I was interested I'm trying to replicate the feel of a sepia-tinted photograph album. For the ebook, I revised the text, removing a lot of the "ing" constructions.
Sandy wrote: "Mr. Morrell, do you have a writing routine ie. same place or same time of day? And have you ever been surprised by how a book progressed....started out with a clear beginning, middle & end, then fo..."Sandy, every writer mis different. I'm a day person, so I start around 8:30 with the goal of accomplishing 5 readable pages. That's more difficult than it sounds and usually requires 7 hours. In the middle of the day, I stop writing and exercise for around 40 minutes, mostly on a treadmill. Somebody come to me all at once--CREEPERS, for example. I knew every twist and turn before I started. Other books have a first-third that I can't resist, such as THE FRATERNITY OF THE STONE. Then it takes a while of the rest of the story to come to me. At the start of every project, I write a letter to myself, asking why a particular project is worth a year or two of my life. There needs to be something about the theme, the way the novel is written, and the research that compels me and will make me feel fuller when I'm finished. That letter can be very long (30 pages) and includes all the questions that I need t answer before I start. Who's the main character? Why? Where is the story set? Why? What is the principal theme? A lot of questions that take a while to answer. Sometimes a novel does change significantly. In THE BROTHERHOOD OF THE ROSE, I killed the wrong brother and the plot froze. Only when I brought that brother back to life and killed the second one did the plot want to continue.
Thanks, Mr. Morrell. Your collection of letters would be interesting to read in themselves. I think most people have no idea how incredibly disciplined a writer has to be & how long you live with a book before letting it go. Look forward to your next one.
David wrote: "Jim, LAST REVEILLE was my first historical novel. A lot of research...."I'm quite happy with my old paperback of Last Reveille. The introduction was very interesting & well done. It's great that you took the time to educate me on the actual events before I plunged into the story. One reason I avoid alternate history novels is that I'm usually not sufficiently familiar with the real history for it to be an effective device. However, I've enjoyed historical fiction all my life. I've been spurred to learn more history by & through them than I ever did through a dry text book.
The introduction also mentions that the 'ing' words (participial phrases) were deliberately used. Reason enough, IMO. I don't mind them & I like the narration that puts the times into perspective since our relations with Mexico are a hot topic today.
Your answer to Sandy about your letters is fascinating & I agree with her, they would make interesting reading for some. Robert E. Howard's letters are now bound & published. They've been discussed by quite a few group members. That's a bit deeper than I want to delve, but I did find Roger Zelazny's letters interesting in relation to his writing in the recent NESFA collection of his writing.
Do you do a lot of reading now? If so, what sort? What authors do you feel were most influential on your own writing?
In some ways, your writing reminds me of Donald Hamilton, best known for his Matt Helm series. While that is a favorite, I was extremely impressed by his westerns & have also read all of his nonfiction works including most of his old articles. Both of you pay a lot of attention to realistic, logical details.
Jim wrote: "David wrote: "Jim, LAST REVEILLE was my first historical novel. A lot of research...."I'm quite happy with my old paperback of Last Reveille. The introduction was very interesting & ..."
Jim, since 2009, when I started my Victorian mystery/thriller trilogy that begins with MURDER AS A FINE ART and INSPECTOR OF THE DEAD, most of my reading has been related to research regarding that period, especially 1850s London and real-life Thomas De Quincey, one of the most controversial figures of the period. Now that I sent the third book RULER OF THE NIGHT to my publisher, I'm free to return to the present and read contemporary books. It was a fascinating journey into the past.
Jim wrote: "David wrote: "Jim, LAST REVEILLE was my first historical novel. A lot of research...."I'm quite happy with my old paperback of Last Reveille. The introduction was very interesting & ..."
I forgot to mention that Donald Hamilton lived in Santa Fe, where I've lived since 1992. I met him once.
Sandy wrote: "Thanks, Mr. Morrell. Your collection of letters would be interesting to read in themselves. I think most people have no idea how incredibly disciplined a writer has to be & how long you live with a..."Jim, I quote extensively from one of the letters (about DOUBLE IMAGE) in the second chapter of my writing book THE SUCCESSFUL NOVELIST.
I read Double Image for this group. I was surprised how detailed all the information on photography was. David, you must be a pretty competent photographer yourself.
Frank wrote: "I read Double Image for this group. I was surprised how detailed all the information on photography was. David, you must be a pretty competent photographer yourself."Frank, I often choose subjects that I want to learn about. Then I immerse myself in the manner of a Method actor. When I wrote my Victorian mystery/thrillers MURDER AS A FINE ART and INSPECTOR OF THE DEAD, for example, for a couple of years the only books I read were related to 1850s London. Truly. I sometimes felt I was there. For DOUBLE IMAGE, I too a photography course from a community college here in Santa Fe. Then I interviewed professional photographers. Then I went to a local, nationally known photography gallery and interviewed the staff about classical photos, asking them why such and such a photo was worth $85,000. After a while, they trusted me enough that I spent weekend afternoons there, pretending to be a customer while I listen to them discuss photographs with prospective clients. I read biographies and studies of the two main photographers that I had in mind as models for my characters--Edward Weston and Ansel Adams. Adams literally wrote the book on darkroom developing techniques--several books in fact. In the days of film, his books were standard references for photographers using dodging and burning techniques (and the grey scale) to turn negatives into photographic artworks. It was a fascinating year. For another of my books THE SHIMMER, I became a private pilot. There needs to be something about the theme, the technique, and the research that makes me spend a year or two on a project. For me, this is about growing and becoming fuller.
Wow. That's an awesome amount of research! A favorite nonfiction author & artist of mine is Eric Sloane. He said the best way for him to research something was to write a book about it. I don't think he was quite a thorough, but he certainly had an interesting & varied life.
Yes, I can definitely see something of Weston in the character of Packard. (Nothing of Adams though.)
When I was reading Double Image it seemed there were two separate narratives - one after the other - within the same book, each of which could have been a novel in its own right. I was wondering if you did that deliberately, David, to heighten the suspense and impact.
Frank wrote: "Yes, I can definitely see something of Weston in the character of Packard. (Nothing of Adams though.)"Agreed that there isn't anything of Adams in the character, but I did rely on what Adams wrote about dark-room techniques.
Frank wrote: "When I was reading Double Image it seemed there were two separate narratives - one after the other - within the same book, each of which could have been a novel in its own right. I was wondering if..."I believe that a story's form should match its content. So, with the title DOUBLE IMAGE, I decided to create a narrative double exposure in which two plots were superimposed. A Washington Post reviewer said that thriller writers weren't allowed to be this creative. Ha. Of course, that was in the film era. The metaphor wouldn't work for a similar story set today, because it's mostly digital now. I suspect that many readers wouldn't even know what a double exposure is.
I grabbed a book off my shelf and guess what it was
(I kid you not) so guess what I will be reading. Ron, will it be a good read!!!
Chris wrote: "I grabbed a book off my shelf and guess what it was (I kid you not) so guess what I will be reading. Ron, will it be a good read!!!"
I enjoyed Creepers. I think you will like it. Books that are political thrillers like Extreme Denial are great also.
(I kid you not) so guess what I will be reading. Ron, will it be a good read!!!"I enjoyed Creepers. I think you will like it. Books that are political thrillers like Extreme Denial are great also.
David wrote: "Frank wrote: "When I was reading Double Image it seemed there were two separate narratives - one after the other - within the same book, each of which could have been a novel in its own right. I wa..."That's ingenious. The metaphor had never occurred to me though I still shoot with film myself.
I read a lot of books and and things don't usually bother me in books but the one thing I DO NOT LIKE are rodents so guess what this book is creeping me out. Should of gotten another book. Question for David, did you do research for this book or is it all fictional. I am talking about the hotel.
Chris wrote: "I grabbed a book off my shelf and guess what it was (I kid you not) so guess what I will be reading. Ron, will it be a good read!!!"Chris, the phenomenon of Urban Exploration ("Creepers") is worldwide. A quarter million websites. CREEPERS was amazingly popular in Germany, presumably because of abandoned WWII installations. Technically, the book was fun to write because it's written in what's called "real time." Every breath of every instant of 8 hours in that terrifying hotel is on the page. No cuts, no summaries such as "Five minutes later." I used the technique so strictly that the unabridged audio book takes 8 hours to be read out loud. It received a Bram Stoker Award from the Horror Writers Association. "Horror" can be defined in terms of mood without having supernatural elements.
Chris wrote: "I read a lot of books and and things don't usually bother me in books but the one thing I DO NOT LIKE are rodents so guess what this book is creeping me out. Should of gotten another book. Questi..."
Chris, the abandoned hotel is based on a number of them that used to be everywhere in Asbury Park, NJ. That city was once the crown jewel resort on the eastern seaboard of the U.S. But a hurricane, a fire, and a riot destroyed the area, leaving many hotels to rot. The building with the clanging piece of sheet metal was real and symbolized the area. That was the case in 2004 when I wrote the novel, at least. But the city dynamited the building and embarked on a major renewal program in recent years.
That's ingenious! "Double Image" I love it when an artist uses the medium to add meaning to the art form. Brilliant!
Chris wrote: "I read a lot of books and and things don't usually bother me in books but the one thing I DO NOT LIKE are rodents so guess what this book is creeping me out. Should of gotten another book.
Questi..."
Extreme Denial is an excellent book if you want to try that Chris. Sorry you didn't like Creepers.
Questi..."
Extreme Denial is an excellent book if you want to try that Chris. Sorry you didn't like Creepers.
I FINALLY got around to finishing & writing a review for Last Reveille. I gave it 5 stars here:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Thanks for writing it, David. I really like tight, economical writing & this is a great example.
Ron wrote: "Chris wrote: "I read a lot of books and and things don't usually bother me in books but the one thing I DO NOT LIKE are rodents so guess what this book is creeping me out. Should of gotten another ..."I am reading it and really enjoying it. The only thing that is creeping (creepers lol) me out are the rodents.
Dave, while I am reading this book I can't help but wonder if you tried some of the things in the book to see if they were doable.
Jim wrote: "I FINALLY got around to finishing & writing a review for Last Reveille. I gave it 5 stars here:https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
Thanks for writing it, David. I really..."
Chris, I remember the difficulty of researching the 1916 raid on Columbus NM during the pre-internet days when finding historical details took some effort. I even graveled to Columbus were the remains of the 1916 military base remained and where the small town didn't seem to be different from the old photographs of it.
Chris wrote: "Dave, while I am reading this book I can't help but wonder if you tried some of the things in the book to see if they were doable."Chris, I was definitely experimenting. One chapter begins with the same first sentence as the previous one--two different perspectives on the same event in the story. I really enjoyed writing it, and I'm proud to have written a Western. John Wayne expressed interest in it, but he was too ill to proceed.
David, I was talking about "The Last Reveille". Chris was asking about "Creepers". Different questions.
David, the first of your books that I came across was Totem. I still think it was one of the all-time best horror books I've read. What stuck with me, though, was the foreword in which you spoke about the changes your publisher wanted you to make. In general, do you feel publishers are unreasonable in the demands that they make on new authors in order to make a novel "sellable"? Would today's new authors be better off self-publishing on Amazon instead of going the traditional publishing route?
Chris wrote: "Dave, while I am reading this book I can't help but wonder if you tried some of the things in the book to see if they were doable."Chris--Ah, ha. I see that I thought you were asking about LAST REVEILLE. Re CREEPERS, I spent a lot of time exploring abandoned building when I was young. But most of the research came from on-line Urban Exploration sites that described the clothing and methane/carbon monoxide detectors etc that are required for serious "creeping." I sent the manuscript to the administrators of a couple of those sites to make sure that I described the details correctly.
Frank wrote: "David, the first of your books that I came across was Totem. I still think it was one of the all-time best horror books I've read. What stuck with me, though, was the foreword in which you spoke ab..."Frank, THE TOTEM was one of my early novels, and I didn't yet have the confidence that I've now acquired. I should have stood my ground and said that I was willing to make changes within the context of the book I'd delivered but that I wasn't going to rewrite the book from page one. That's the only time in which I encountered this problem. As for going the indie route as opposed to the traditional route, with the contraction of the number of major publishing houses since 1999 (from dozens to five), the limited marketplace has made it difficult to get the attention of those big five. But if an author can manage to get that attention, it's a terrific environment, with (usually) excellent editing, cover art, distribution, online marketing etc. I emphasize "usually." Many traditionally published authors have their favorite "how could things have gone so wrong" complaint. Nonetheless I believe that a new author should first try to acquire an agent and an established publisher, because of the support group and the wisdom that can be learned. If that fails after a genuine attempt in that direction, then becoming an indie author is the way to go. I say this with experience in both camps. I was one of the first established authors to e-publish an original novel (in 2010 at the start of the e-book revolution), and I continue to e-publish my backlist, so I have considerable experience in both areas. I believe that it's essential to have a serious professional advisor, such as an agent and an editor, who provides an outside view of a project. And the effort of self-promoting an indie book can be exhausting. I know many indie authors who spend half of each day promoting themselves. True, a traditional publisher expects authors to promote themselves, but at least that traditional publisher can provide advice, along with (more or less) help. This is a volatile issue. Authors who feel abandoned by the traditional route respond angrily to someone who says there's merit to the traditional system. I have the benefit of a long career behind me and have the luxury of a choice. To put this in perspective, one of my upcoming books, a collection of my non-fiction magazine articles about books, movies, and music, isn't suitable for today's traditional marketplace, and I'll self-publish it myself. Not all books are for a big market. I should add that so many new authors are now publishing e-books (400,000 this year), it's difficult to get the attention that indie authors received from 2009-2013. The e-market for romance novels and erotica remains high, but otherwise, I've spoken to many indie authors who say that with increased competition, their sales have declined.
While I am reading "Creepers" this has to be one of the best books I have read so far. I actually feel like I am with these people while they are doing things and the descriptions of the rooms put you right there.
Chris wrote: "While I am reading "Creepers" this has to be one of the best books I have read so far. I actually feel like I am with these people while they are doing things and the descriptions of the rooms put ..."Thanks, Chris. You feel that way because I take the sense of right for granted and emphasize sound, touch, smell, and taste. As I tell my writing students, a story feels multi-dimensional to the degree that it emphasizes many senses. In CREEPERS, much of the action takes place in the dark, so the sense of sight was automatically excluded.
David wrote: "Frank wrote: "David, the first of your books that I came across was Totem. I still think it was one of the all-time best horror books I've read. What stuck with me, though, was the foreword in whic..."Thank you, David, for taking the time to give my question such a detailed and helpful reply. I truly appreciate your courtesy.
On Creepers (saying books since the author is commenting all all his writings). This book is so amazing. I think I read it a while ago because I have that deja vu feeling about it. This book is so full of surprises. I should have my daughter read it she may come up with things for her creative writing course.
Chris wrote: "On Creepers (saying books since the author is commenting all all his writings). This book is so amazing. I think I read it a while ago because I have that deja vu feeling about it. This book is so ..."Chris, this is one of those few novels that came to me in a flash. I immediately saw the three-act structure in which the main character pretends to be one person and then a third of the way through pretends to be someone else and then in the last third finally reveals his true identity. If I have the structure, I can write a book rapidly (CREEPERS took four months). But that's rare. Often, I need to arrange and rearrange the material until I find the necessary path, such as the structural device of alternating viewpoints between Rambo and the policeman in FIRST BLOOD. That came late in the three-year process.
Crime Detective Mystery Thriller Group
Books mentioned in this topic
Last Reveille (other topics)Last Reveille (other topics)
Creepers (other topics)
Creepers (other topics)
Creepers (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Eric Sloane (other topics)Robert E. Howard (other topics)
Roger Zelazny (other topics)
Donald Hamilton (other topics)
Based on e-mails that I received from group members, I thought we could do something different that may not have been tried in Goodreads before. I know that normally, groups pick one book and people read them but I thought this would be an opportunity to try something different since David Morrell has agreed to join us for a group read.
In any case, you can pick a book by David Morrell and read it. I have offered you some suggestions since I have read all these books.
As I have said before, I have grown up reading books by David Morrell. He is considered the grandfather of action adventure novels and I think you would find that many of the books that I have recommended are better than his hit movie, Rambo.
This is a unique opportunity to meet David Morrell so you can read his books, ask questions, and tell us what you think of the books you have read. As I told him at a book signing many years ago, I thought that nearly every book he has written was better than the last book.
One thing that David Morrell said that always stood out in my mind was his historical references that he makes in his books. As he put it, he hopes you would learn something as well when you read his books. In my case, I always enjoyed the historical references and it only made the book better. I hope that if you decide to join us that you will feel the same way.