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Anybody else outline before writing a draft?
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Kenneth
(last edited Sep 27, 2015 06:59PM)
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Sep 27, 2015 06:56PM
I write the ending to my story first then I start a working outline as the story unfolds and the characters come to visit. My outlines are definitely broad strokes!
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Kenneth wrote: "I write the ending to my story first then I start a working outline as the story unfolds and the characters come to visit."HATS OFF TO YOU! That would stress me out LOL. When you already have the ending written it feels like theirs no wiggle room for writing the rest.
Usually I do for longer pieces. Rarely do I do so for shorter works. But nothing is absolute.
@kenneth I've done that before starting with the end and working my way back or starting from the middle. once i had the end and the beginning and had to come up with the middle! lolz fun crazy stuff
Shane wrote: "I notice writers block happens a lot less when I have an outline."Whereas I find that if I have an outline, I get really bored with the book and tend to set it aside and work on more exciting things. Outlines for me are just too restrictive: "you have to write this, then you have to write that, then you have to write this other thing..."
Sticking to an outline kills the joy of discovery for me. It seems to throw cold water on my enthusiasm and prevents the unexpected from happening.
I find that the more you write in a story, the more you start to understand the world and the characters. You simply cannot (or at least I cannot) anticipate all the possible plot shifts and twists, all the mistakes and misunderstandings of the characters. Once I'm in their minds I find out that the outlining I've done was naïve, misguided, and shortsighted.
I tend to think of my outlines less as road maps and more of an itinerary. They tell me where I want to get to, but not how to get there. I outlined my fourth book and started working on it, and it already looks like one of my high school English essays, with red ink and cross-outs everywhere. It gave me somewhere to start from and a destination, but the characters decided to take the scenic route, and so some of the intended plot points no longer made sense. An outline is no more concrete than a first draft, really.
I use a hybrid model. Loose plotting then run with it
Joe wrote: "I tend to think of my outlines less as road maps and more of an itinerary. They tell me where I want to get to, but not how to get there."I like that description :D Very true.
Melissa wrote: "Joe wrote: "I tend to think of my outlines less as road maps and more of an itinerary. They tell me where I want to get to, but not how to get there."I like that description :D Very true."
[pedantic] Only an itinerary by definition would require some kind of road map. [/pedantic]
];P
I do a more or less outline, 3-4 pages, with an equal or larger amount of backstory (for a series sequel). Then I start writing. During the process, some of my ideas change, some new ideas arise, some old ideas begin to smell like four-day-old fish, my characters tell me what and where they want to go, my writers group comments on what chapters they see, and I bumble along.
Yeah, what Joe said. I consider an outline as a helpful guide. It doesn't restrict the story at all. You have to be adaptable to change just like anything in life. But I find it important to jot your ideas down when they come to you. When I mean writers block i'm talking about something to help me get to my destination easier without interruptions. There are stories you write where they just flow off your tongue and then there are others where you get stuck on a scene. But It doesn't stop you from moving ahead to a different scene. I've got about 20 stories on the go, short stories, novellas and novels, I know they'll get done eventually but a lot of them don't have outlines, the big ones do. Personally I'm finding it easier when there's a road map but of course you have to expect that things will change as you start writing. You've probably been there where you're writing at an unstoppable pace and then all of a sudden you hit a brick wall. As you can see from these responses nobody writes the exact same way. Some like complex webs where they like to detail every little thing and others just pants it which is also fun. Do what you're comfortable with because there is no right way. You know why? Because creativity doesn't have an answer.
Micah wrote: "Shane wrote: "I notice writers block happens a lot less when I have an outline."Whereas I find that if I have an outline, I get really bored with the book and tend to set it aside and work on mor..."
This is the exact problem I have. Even knowing full well that I can change things at any time, and come up with how to get there as I write, it's like a mental block for me.
I do outline in my head sometimes though, and it's a little easier; I often come up with scenes I think are interesting, and start to imagine how they connect together, and if it properly advances the plot. If it doesn't, I just pass on it. Maybe it's easier because it's not written down and therefore not made "real."
I know exactly what those of you who get bored/blocked when using an outline are talking about. And it took me decades of writing to get past that block. If you are interested, here is some of the process that got me from being unable to write with an outline, to being able to use an outline. I had one book that I really liked the MC in. Like with many of my early books, without a plan one of the easiest ways to end a book was by killing off the MC for one reason or another. And so I did. But I wanted to write more about her. I went back and wrote a missing five-year period from book one. That still wasn't enough for me. I wrote a couple of different alternate endings in which she didn't actually die. Wasn't quite what I wanted. I thought about book one and started to flesh out the back story. All of this is happening over a period of years, by the way, with lots of other writing going on as well. But I kept going back to my favourite character. Every few years, I would go back and write more back story, searching for any 'holes' that I had missed, any comments about things that had happened in her past that I hadn't written about yet.
In the meantime, I still attempted a few books where I had sketched out what I wanted to happen, and promptly took the story off in another direction instead. Then I managed to write a book where, from the instant I started, I knew what that midpoint plot twist was, and the secret that the MC had that was going to be revealed. And I wrote the story, getting to that midpoint, and eventually finishing the story (though I killed off one of the MC's again. The plot twist was good, but the ending still needs to be rewritten!)
I had finally 'finished' with my favourite character and had written pretty much her entire life.
I started writing for NaNoWriMo and although I 'won,' I didn't finish the book and found it difficult to pick it up again after resting over Christmas.
The next year for Nano, I decided to avoid the 'saggy middle' and the problem of not finishing by the end of Nano by making my Nano book several intertwining shorter stories. I would write one for a while, and if I got bored or didn't know where it was going, I would switch to the other one. I did get all of the threads written, and then after Nano was done, all that was left was to assemble the bits into a logical order to get the complete story.
I took these disparate experiences and examined them.
- I greatly enjoyed writing the backstory and missing bits for my favourite character, even though I knew how her story ended. Knowing her eventual fate did not keep me from writing or enjoying the rest of the story.
- I had managed to write a story even knowing what the 'big reveal' was ahead of time, and had not given up on it, but had written the whole thing.
- I could take several different stories/scenes and weave a story from them after the writing was done. They didn't have to be written in order, I could just write whatever part I wanted, and put them together after.
So for the next Nano, I tried an experiment. I wrote my story in whatever order I felt like. If I was writing scene A, and I thought of scene B, which preceded it or provided backstory, I would go ahead and write scene B anyway. It didn't matter where scene C fell in the story chronology or if I thought it would fit into the overall structure of the story, I just went ahead and wrote it anyway. At the end of Nano, I was left with a conglomeration of scenes and threads that had resulted in a satisfying storyline, but still needed to be tidied up and put into a logical order. Some scenes got scrapped from the storyline and just kept as backstory, but most were part of the finished story.
That was the key point for me. If I could write scenes in whatever order I felt like, and I could go back to write more, keep some as backstory, jump ahead in the story if I was bored, etc., then I should be able to write from an outline. I would just tackle whatever part of the story spoke to me, no necessarily going through it from beginning to end, and I would just find the magic in whatever scene I was working on at the time. I could add more in or take scenes out later if I wanted to, and polish it up to make it into a proper story. So for my next Camp Nano after that... I outlined. It wasn't a huge or detailed outline. It was a mystery, and I still didn't know how it was going to end or what the clues along the way would be, but I had a beginning, middle, and end, and for the first act, I had a number of plot points to work through. When I completed the book (at that point I had decided that I needed to write 100,000 words in a month instead of 50,000 so that I could finish it properly) it was really good, one of the best bits that I had written.
So I have been outlining since. Not every book. Some of them I have still pantsed my way through to some degree. I have also been able to resurrect some unfinished work and plot out the ending so that I could finish it. Sometimes I don't know how the plot is going to be resolved (my last act or scene may say something like 'X gets away or she doesn't', because I don't know yet.) Sometimes I put scenes into my outline that I never write. Sometimes I write back story that isn't in my outline. It isn't written in stone.
Does that mean that outlining is the only way? Obviously not. I wrote for almost thirty years without an outline. Does it mean that is where everyone will eventually end up? I don't think so. That's just my journey. And I'm happy with it, because it means that I can finish whatever I start; no more abandoned projects. And it means that I am getting better about writing a satisfying ending (where I don't kill off the MC...) And because I can still have fun and be creative at all points of the writing - mindmapping, outlining, first draft, rewriting and polishing.
Joe wrote: "I tend to think of my outlines less as road maps and more of an itinerary. They tell me where I want to get to, but not how to get there. I outlined my fourth book and started working on it, and ..."Me too. I have a clear idea of where I am going and some of the points I want to visit, but the exact route develops as the characters get on stage.
I read an article that there are 2 types of authors -- those that outline plots and those that don't, and that neither method is necessarily better. It depends on your personality, and each has its advantages and disadvantages. Plotting can stifle creativity as you force things to go a certain way, and not plotting can have you getting stuck or wandering aimlessly.I'm big on plotting. I used to just write an overall outline, and then I would write loosely following it. If things changed, I would stop and plan out a new outline.
Then I saw a tip for outliners that really helped me a lot. It was to put each scene that you envision on an index card, with one line about what the scene was about, another line or two about what occurs, list key characters, and how the scene ends. Then you lay out the index cards and can play around with the sequence of the scenes. I found it also uncovered areas where I needed to introduce new scenes in order to set up later scenes.
Sounds like Scrivener might assist your writing. It encourages being able to skip around in a story, write scenes in non linear order and stay organized. I outline by naming text chunks which must be hit.
Katrice wrote: "Kenneth wrote: "I write the ending to my story first then I start a working outline as the story unfolds and the characters come to visit."HATS OFF TO YOU! That would stress me out LOL. When you ..."
To be honest, my ending changed several times when writing Almost Human for that very reason. But writing the end did remind me to keep the story moving and not get too caught up in developing a scene. I tend to wander!
I tend to write my ending first, then work towards it. I learned this from my choir director, believe it or not. When we were learning a new song, he would start with the last few bars of the song first, moving towards the beginning. When we asked him why he did that, he said doing it that way meant that we were always working our way towards familiar material (the ending). It works well for me to know where I'm going when I'm writing so I don't veer off in the wrong direction.
I've never used a true outline and usually get right into the writing with a rough idea in mind. Outlines feel confining to me and I like to let the story come together however it wants to. I do jot down some thoughts later though but it's usually because I've come to a stand still, what most call writers block, and it usually gets me going again.
Yes, I use an outline, absolutely need it: there is a lot of movement and backstory and it keeps everything in sync.
This is my first book, so it's not a tried and true method, but it seems to work so far. I have a notebook that I'm filling with important details in the events happening, all the characters and basic info about them. Certain aspects I'm toying with that won't happen until later in the book, but I want to remember as a backup if I get stuck and need to come up with something to work in. But as far as the writing goes, I just go for it, let it flow out. I'll go back to read it and rework certain things, but I don't really outline things. It makes things feel to set for me. Instead of the story taking a life of it's own on to work for the characters, it makes things feel forced, like I HAVE to make that work since it's what I came up with. That was always my issue when I was in school and had to write for an assignment.
Debbie wrote: "I've never used a true outline and usually get right into the writing with a rough idea in mind. Outlines feel confining to me and I like to let the story come together however it wants to. I do ..."Exactly!
I think it's fair to say that it's more likely that those who write as they go along will ultimately end up doing more editing after the first draft is finished.
I know that my older stuff needs a vast amount of rewriting and restructuring. But I can't say whether that is due to lack of an outline or just maturing in the craft.
My outline is only six to ten lines at the end of my manuscript. Adding to it as I accomplish milestones keeps me focused but not bogged down. That isn't to say I don't have a higher order plan for my story-line but that's in my head. Spontaneity allows for plot twists that surprise my readers but me too. They become those "didn't see THAT coming" moments. Surprises are what keep me excited as I write. I can hardly wait to see what's going to happen in the next chapter though I do know how the story will end.
I do a lot of research and collect data in spiral reference notebooks, along with pictures of my characters that I've downloaded from modeling agencies where I can select attributes (Hair color, weight, age.) It helps me to see my characters as I write, even if my readers never see them.
My locations also have hand drawn maps that help me with correct navigation between buildings and places.
Finally, I have bios for each character that include talents, experiences, occupations, and family history. Characters don't get added to my story without a bio started.
Having depth of knowledge for my characters is what defines who they are. It helps me make them come alive in my writing and prevents conflicting descriptions in various parts of my book.
Hope this helps. Your results may vary.
Kelsey wrote: "Debbie wrote: "I've never used a true outline and usually get right into the writing with a rough idea in mind. Outlines feel confining to me and I like to let the story come together however it w..."My favorite description of authors of fiction is:
"These authors are souls obsessed with a story for which the only means of deliverance is a keyboard."
I keep a very brief outline, in-depth bios, and pictures of people and places.
Yes and no. It depends on how my mind is doing with the story and how long it is. I like to map out major events and then create fillers in between.
I write down any ideas that come to head first; any chapters or scenes, but I make sure to include them In my outline. This actually helps me to build the outline because I have points to work towards.
I won't start a first draft until I have a complete mind-map of the novel. I showed one of these at a lecture and someone called it a graphical synopsis. I actually build a whole serious of mind-maps for the novel One for characters, one for plots and the graphical synopsis. What can I say? I don't like lists and tables and outlines. I want to see information presented graphically. It's how my mind works
The outline serves at least two purposes, for me: as a structure where I can see how the story flows (timing, pace, backstory/action), and as a bookmark, allowing me to find my place and recover my thoughts when I return from doing other things.
The outline is a map. But it's a living, breathing map and the geography changes all the time. Still, it's nice to have it there.
Tyler wrote: "Kelsey wrote: "Debbie wrote: "I've never used a true outline and usually get right into the writing with a rough idea in mind. Outlines feel confining to me and I like to let the story come togeth..."I really like that. It's definitely something I've found true, though before I decided to go for it with my writing I played the stories out with my dolls as a child and my Sims games as I got older. I find writing much more satisfying.
I do like your method. I had an idea for what each character would look like, but the faces never really came through for me, it's one of the hardest things for me to imagine when I'm reading. I searched just basic terms I had for my characters and ended up finding people who fit perfectly, better than what I thought I had. Just as I searched for photos of a certain type of house and different interiors that didn't belong to said house, but fit perfectly. It most definitely helps.
While I don't have a brief outline, I do know the ending and have a general idea of the road it'll take to get there, but I've already found certain situations I thought would happen one way, happening a completely different way, and I absolutely love it. Even though I'm the one writing it, it's someone else's story I'm telling, I'm just along for the ride.
It's awesome.
Kelsey wrote: "While I don't have a brief outline, I do know the ending and have a general idea of the road it'll take to get there, but I've already found certain situations I thought would happen one way, happening a completely different way, and I absolutely love it. Even though I'm the one writing it, it's someone else's story I'm telling, I'm just along for the ride."That sounds like my "brief outline." I rarely have more than that. I'm definitely just along for the ride and often surprised at where the story goes. With good bios and documentation of places, it prevents the need for rewrites due to errors. Many use an outline for that but I doubt I would follow one if written.
I start with a summary of the concept. Typically it is a few pages in Word that describes the overall story and a few key characters. This is usually done while I'm working on draft revisions of another novel. As I get closer to starting work on the book I create an excel spreadsheet that acts as my outline, with each chapter summarized with key dialog listed so I don't forget it. Then I start writing the first draft. The outline changes as the story develops but not much since I put a lot of the thought into things before I work on the draft.
I don't outline the entire first draft, to me the first draft is the complete outline. I always know how I want the story to begin, what hurdles my characters have to jump over, and how to conclude. The basics. I tend to note down a few main points, then write a chapter. I repeat this chapter by chapter to keep it fresh. For me this works and I don't get lost in complicated method, I can just write.
Also it's a good idea to note down any dates, ages, places. Then as your story evolves, it's easy to go with the flow instead of going back.
Everyone is different and as you write you will tend to find your own way.
I used to outline my stories, because I was taught that way in school. But during one story I was trying to map out, one character sort of took over, and the story I had intended to write had fallen aside. After that, every time I tried to write out an outline, I'd hit a roadblock thinking it would get away from me. So now I just start writing and see what comes from it. Sometimes it's nothing, but other times, I actually get a full story. As with my first story that I just released, it was just an idea that I sat down and found just flowed without any guide. I knew what I wanted to get to and just wrote til I found a way to make that moment happen.
i sometimes do. i usually like to brainstorm the ideas out then go from there. unless its a story that i just cant wait to write. then it just gets slapped on a page.
Tyler wrote: "Kelsey wrote: "While I don't have a brief outline, I do know the ending and have a general idea of the road it'll take to get there, but I've already found certain situations I thought would happen..."It does actually. I'm just so use to a certain format for an outline, that I suppose I never really considered it one. So far I've found that as well. I know every time I include some sort of detail, height, age, favorite color, description, I usually put it in my notes just so if, or when, it comes back up it won't get lost in the mix.
