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Anybody else outline before writing a draft?
I do. I wasn't always an outliner, but trying to write a coherent series by the seat of my pants doesn't usually work out well. My outlines tend to change as I write the draft, but it gives me a structure to work from.
You'll find exhaustive info for and against on this thread: https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
I think it depends on genre as well one's own process.
I just like writing what feels like a rough draft without obsessing over the telling. Like getting the ideas and tone I want to express but not committing to writing scenes out until I know they're in the right place.It keeps me open to revisions rather than settling on a chapter or forcing things to work.
I write vague dot points so I know where the story is heading and to give me focus, but I don't write a hardcore outline. I guess I'm halfway between outliner and pantser.
I'm working on a story now that I haven't outlined yet, and I feel like I'm stumbling through a dark forest! I always outline, but I wanted to see how it worked out without one. *sighs* I need an outline. :-)
Mod
And this one...
https://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/...
Also, let's try to refrain from suggesting that "seat-of-the-pants" writers have a difficult time writing coherently.
Dwayne wrote: "Also, let's try to refrain from suggesting that "seat-of-the-pants" writers have a difficult time writing coherently."I was speaking of my personal experiences, nothing more.
I did an outline before the first draft...once.It didn't survive the writing process. I ended up changing the outline to fit what I wrote, rather than the other way around.
It was a good exercise, but it's more trouble than it's worth for me.
I didn't outline my first two books and had no problems with anything whatsoever. It went smoothly. I let the protagonist decide his own fate. He led me through the whole process. For the third book, I have an outline. I know what's going to happen, when, and why. The funny thing is I'm stuck. Forgive me for saying this but my MC is a stubborn SoB and he doesn't seem to want to do what I need him to do, when I need him to do it. I'm in a constant struggle with him.
I'm taking a break from it. When I'll return I've already decided that he will do what he wants as long as it leads me where I want. Maybe if we share my mind it will go as well as it did the first two times. :/
"I didn't outline my first two books and had no problems with anything whatsoever. It went smoothly. I let the protagonist decide his own fate." GGYes, exactly. They are alive inside you. Listen to them. They will tell you where to go.
G.G. wrote: "Forgive me for saying this but my MC is a stubborn SoB and he doesn't seem to want to do what I need him to do, when I need him to do it. I'm in a constant struggle with him. "I remember talking about my characters this way once in front of non-writers, and they looked at me like I was maybe schizophrenic.
Mod
I know that look. Maybe this is why I like my day job so much. I do relate to the schizophrenics pretty well and love being around them.
I'm definitely working on a plot-centric novel, so my outline is keeping my characters on-point. When it comes to dialogue, I'm leaving myself prompts for what needs to be said and save the phrasing for later :)
Yep, like Jack said. They do live inside you. People who don't write simply don't understand, unless maybe they're avid readers. I think they end up feeling the same way when they get heavily invested in a book or series.
I don't share this with many people, but I will share it here. This is the love letter I wrote my protagonist at a difficult time while writing my third book.My Darling Amy
I wrote you into being
Ink of my quill
My very blood Flowing through your veins
Birthed from within the dreaming
And with me, you forever remain
I am your Father, your Brother, your friend and your lover
I am your perfect man, and you, my goddess, flawed in ways only I can heal
Together we move, our emotions like an earthquake brought forth by me, then calmed by your touch
You my love, forgive no mistakes, for this requires me to forgive myself, which I will never do
You circle me in modest dress while mocking me, laughing at me, and then, when certain I can take no more, your whisper explodes in my soul, your voice, a soaring symphony duplicated only by Angels and Demons. Then your finger traces the scars on my heart as you say,
“My love, You’ve only scratched the surface of all that I am.”
I do an outline after the first draft is done. Makes it easier for me to analyze what I have done and see where it makes sense and where it doesn't.
Courtney,*hand raised*
I wrote my first book without an outline, and I also had to revisit chapters to put in relevant information that I came up with later in the story.
Now, with my second book, I wrote an overall outline down to the main events to occur in all 34 chapters. I still let ideas flow and add scenes/info here and there as they come to mind, but I love having a base structure with all the important stuff in place. It makes writing this sequel SO much easier for me. :)
I wish I would have done it for the first one. I would have finished it sooner. But I guess learning as you go is part of the writing journey :)
I suppose I'm a little of the reverse structuring. I free write, and my outline builds off of this. I use the outline to build deeper story events, keep events and timing straight, or remove the stuff I can do without. Attempting to outline first, however, it always leads me against the characters tendencies and personalities.
I'm already hacking up the outline for my fourth book as I write it. It's like any other plan of battle: it rarely survives the initial engagement. But it helps to think of your outline as a fluid thing rather than a permanent structure. By the end, I hope my outlines serve more as a quick-reference for the next book than as a synopsis in and of itself.
I write an outline along with the start of the first draft. When I get into the first draft it always takes a life of it's own and the outline always gets rewritten or revised almost completely or in certain scenes. It's frustrating but, it's the way my mind works and it makes the story/plot/etc. go very well.Sometimes it's in reverse first draft and then outline and/or synopsis.
Oh yes. I'm a very linear writer who needs some kind of structure in what I do, so I always need an outline. Even if I never look at the outline again, or rarely look at it, writing them out at least helps me get the major scenes organized in my head. It also helps me figure out the beginning of the story and the end, which are the most important for me. As long as I have an idea of how I want the book to start and finish, then the rest usually comes pretty easy to me.
Try just creating a list of chapters (I use Word with the "Navigation Pane" turned on)... toss notes in the chapter, characters, plot ideas, locations, and so forth. Then let your characters tell the story; they do such a great job of it. If you stall out on one chapter, just jump ahead and write a different one. If the story line doesn't want to converge on your ending, just write the last chapter and work your way back. chapters can be inserted, moved, and deleted at will. Mix 'em, match 'em, trade 'em with your friends; It's pantsing, but pantsing with a purpose.
I always find how different people go about writing fascinating. I mean, there really is no wrong way to go about it. The only "wrong" way would be to use a method that isn't working for you, personally. But if whatever method or methods you use gets you from the beginning all the way to "The End," then go for it. It's all good.
Melissa wrote: "I always find how different people go about writing fascinating. I mean, there really is no wrong way to go about it. The only "wrong" way would be to use a method that isn't working for you, perso..."Exactly.
I notice writers block happens a lot less when I have an outline. Again personal preference.
my doorstoppers are complex. if i dont outline i will pants myself into a corner. I'm currently unsnarling 3 books i jacked up on that are supposed to be released this year -_- ugh
I don't do a lot of outlines. My first ever book came about when the characters came to life in my head so I went with that. Now I do a bit of both.
I find I was able to 'pants' things better when I wrote primarily fan-fiction, since the background world and plots were already established. I have a much harder time trying to do it for a full-length novel. I did one that way, but didn't like the way it turned out, so it went to the graveyard folder. Personally, I'm happier with my results when I plot ahead of time, even if I don't stick to it exactly (which was the case with the last two I wrote).
Joe wrote: "I find I was able to 'pants' things better when I wrote primarily fan-fiction, since the background world and plots were already established. I have a much harder time trying to do it for a full-l..."You just read my mind. It's easy to write as you go when the world building has been done for you already
Mod
I am a unique breed, a Plan by the Seat of my Pants writer.
The plan is a comfort to have though, so if something changes really dramatically from the plan I just change the plan. I'm sneaky like that.
For my first book I had a list of elements I wanted to include in the plot but from there wrote mostly by the seat of my pants. I actually found that quite natural and found that "somehow" coincidences happened to make the story flow that I couldn't have considered earlier if I tried to plan it... For the next, the plot I am planning is pretty complex with multiple linked threads that need to be coordinated ... and so I shall be putting a basic outline first but will no doubt adjust my pants as I go through it...
my current (first and only novel-length) work began as 3 paragraphs. then i wrote a 2-page outline, a few character sheets, and a 1-page world description; wrote a 45k draft and sent that out to beta readers; rewrote it and sent it to my writers group; expanded the outline and rewrote it again w/an emphasis on the female MC instead of the male MC; hired a professional editor and then rewrote it again.next time, i'll write a pretty detailed outline even for the 1st draft because then it'll be less rework--or maybe i'll find that i can keep it in my head (not!)
First novel I pantsed it. The second one I'm using K.M. Weiland's workbook on Outlining your novel. Since my two books are in the same series, I thought I knew my main character, but clearly I did not! It is a slow process but I'm working my way through. Since I'm in editing process of first novel, I'm thinking of what I can add to book 1. If you have never outlined before and have a lot of patience, I would recommend getting the workbook.
Our books tend to be too complex and mutable to outline efficiently, so we don't bother: an outline detailed enough to be useful would take an inordinate amount of effort and be very unlikely to survive contact with the writing. So we write "organically" from key points "outwards", encountering issues, dealing with them, and filling in things as we go. But I just embarked on a new project with another co-author, which is completely different, and that one we are outlining. It's being quite interesting to do that.
I have a basic outline in my head but I tend to start writing and just see which direction it takes!
Shari wrote: "I have a basic outline in my head but I tend to start writing and just see which direction it takes!"I am much the same way. The story should dictate the writing. Those who use outlines tend to let the outline dictate the story.
I sure do. I keep a running/flexible outline with key points/events/characters. I find it keeps me on track so that content is focused and relevant to the story. I find that by using the outline as a reference for research and writing creates more focused outcomes.
I have trouble with outlines because they feel constricting, like I'm committing to a plot that I have to stick with. I work a lot better when I just have the basic idea and characters in my head.I could see how that would create problems if I were writing mystery novels, though.
I do make an outline of the chapters I want to include in my book, but it is a living document and will grow. My outline only helps is to formulate a direction of movement in the story. For example, in my latest WIP Chapter 6 became Chapter 1 because that is where it fit the best. I didn't realize that when I initially established my plot. And, I always find many more chapters as the writing moves along. So, my advice is to figure out a beginning, middle, and end and then try to fill in between them knowing you may alter them later on. I believe if you try to make your writing follow a specific outline, you may end up with a story, but it won't be your best work. Of course, you have to do what works best for you in the end.
T.R. wrote: "I have trouble with outlines because they feel constricting, like I'm committing to a plot that I have to stick with. I work a lot better when I just have the basic idea and characters in my head...."
I'm with you on finding outlines constricting, and I write mystery novels, lol. Basically, any plot issues are dealt with during a lengthy and exhaustive editing/revision process. But I need that freedom when writing the first draft.
J.D. wrote: "any plot issues are dealt with during a lengthy and exhaustive editing/revision process. But I need that freedom when writing the first draft."T.R. wrote: "I have trouble with outlines because they feel constricting"
oh that's interesting. so, maybe it's a question of when you use that "freedom" vs. "constriction" or "creativity/synthetic" vs "editing/analytical".
for some the first draft could be a huge brainstorming session (synthetic) and then the editing session could be analytical and synthetic. for others the outline is the main brainstorming session.
I wrote without outlining for almost three decades. I was convinced that if I knew how my story was going to end, or even a few scenes ahead, I couldn't write it. I'd be too bored or blocked or else I'd have to change it completely. But over the last few years, I have grown and learned and I have been able to outline and draft successfully. I have experimented with differing degrees of outlining, from broad strokes to detailed scenes. I still write some stuff without an outline, but usually I use one now. Helps me to be able to get a book drafted quickly so that I can finish several per year.
I recently started using Schivener and while I'm a 'go with the flow author' the little note cards are great for chapters, always visible and you can be as detailed as you want o be.
I always outline:First Outline: 15 lines
Second Outline: 2 pages
Third Outline: 15 pages
Then write the first draft.
Total time on my last book, Outline to completed First draft was 12 weeks.
Melissa wrote: "I always find how different people go about writing fascinating. I mean, there really is no wrong way to go about it. The only "wrong" way would be to use a method that isn't working for you, perso..."You said it for me! Everyone's mind works differently, and everyone's process is different. People cite pros and cons of one way versus another, but it's not a competition to see who's right because that's a meaningless battle. The only measure of success worth worrying about is the story that pops out at the end of it all.
For what it's worth, I need a high level outline then I pants parts, then outline some more. I think I'm a fractal plotser.
interesting how folks do things. i just jotted some notes from everyone's styles to try. i know i can get a little chaotic in my process. i plot an idea pants then outline when stuck pants some more edit pants plot fix then overhaul. why go through the trouble if i had just outlined the first time? because then i choke and can't write anymore. sometimes a bit of both helps. more time yeah but it keeps my imagination from being stifled.
I find that my actual writing only resembles maybe 50% of the notes I compiled in my outline. The outline helps get the creative juices flowing for me because more often then not, my outline is less "bullet points" and more like a compilation of random dialogue and scene description that popped into my head while "plotting" the longer I work on it. Outlines are more me triggering the "I need to write this story" now excitement that urges me towards my laptop.
I would actually recommend outlining for a person who has writer's block, or better yet, thinks they have writer's block. Before you wave your hand at the sight of your notebook, or throw in the towel at the first sight of a blank MS Word document page because "Your muse isn't into it today", try outlining the yet-to-be tackled scenes in your manuscript if you want to jump-start your thirst for creativity. LONG-HAND if you can stand to ferret out the chicken-scratch penmanship that occurs once you're brain is racing with ideas.
That's what works for me anyway.
- raises hand -
I know a lot of authors have a "go with the flow/organic" method, but I'm working on a dark fantasy/mystery series so I need to invest in plotting and premise to avoid pitfalls later. It's a bit of a writing limbo but better than rewriting chapters :)
Any other like-minded folks?