WE ARE OPEN - SEPTEMBER - THE SIXTH EXTINCTION: AN UNNATURAL HISTORY

[Donna]

Hi Teri! My book just came in from the library so I'm just getting started. I finished Chapter II - no real surprises, but (view spoiler)[ it's interesting how frequently the Comte de Buffon has been popping up in my reading lately. Although he eventually refuted it, at one point he espoused the theory that the animals and indigenous people of the New World were inferior and less virile than those from Eurasia - something that infuriated Jefferson. (hide spoiler)]

I'm finding the book very readable so far.

[Teri]

Hi Donna! Glad you are joining us and jumping right in! It is a very readable book and I'm excited that we have quite a few joining us in this read.

(view spoiler)[I had to go look up Buffon again. I'll post a glossary entry on him as he really influenced Lamarck and Cuvier! I'm glad you mentioned him.
(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Just an explanation Teri - during the reading of a book for a discussion - on the discussion threads only - we do not have to cite any person who is mentioned in the book who might in fact also be an author or ever cite the book or the author we are discussing. Only when we cite other books and other folks who are authors that are not part of the book's reading - do we have to cite them on the book discussion thread. It makes it easier to flow along. However, on all other threads of the History Book Club - whenever we mention an author or a book - citations must be made. And of course also here if they are ancillary books and their authors.

See message 9.

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

I know - but it makes it easier for the flow of actual book discussions.

[Kathy]

Chapter 3

(view spoiler)[This was a painful read. I can't believe how cruel mankind was to the auks. I like the term "human-caused extinction". We may be the last species to be lost due to "human-caused extinction" if we don't get our act together. Disclosure time - I believe all animals are sentient under the definition that all animals have the ability to experience pleasure and pain. I did have a good laugh at how the gannets handled the webcam! I have an African Grey Parrot who when he really gets mad at me usually because I am reading and ignoring him will do the same to me as the gannets did to that camera. He also lays his head against my shoulder as I read aloud to him and coos like a dove. I interpret both of these behaviors as sentient. Yeah, I am a bit of a fanatic. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Kathy - Chapter 3

(view spoiler)[I don't think you're a fanatic one bit. My furbaby, Harleigh (a Siamese), is spoiled rotten and has quite the personality. She is also very smart and knows what is what and rules this place. I agree that animals are sentient by your definition and Harleigh certainly lets us know when she is happy or mad about anything.

The demise of the Auks is certainly troubling and sadly not the last species that will be lost to human-caused extinction. I do think we need to make that distinction between human-caused and natural occurring. One we can control, the second we can't, at least not to a certain extent. I think that even if we had taken care of our wonderful planet, there would still be a certain lifecycle for some species, but I believe there is much, much more that is human-caused or that we have contributed to in some fashion. (hide spoiler)]

[G]

Response to Kathy: join the club. I save spiders when I can, by taking them outside. All creatures are sentient. We humans delude ourselves into thinking we are more special (and therefore given prerogatives) than we really are.

[G]

(view spoiler)[ It is interesting that she calls the people who killed the last Auk 'enthusiasts', not unlike the 'enthusiasts' who killed Cecil the lion over the summer. Enthusiasts: what an interesting characterization. We should be so proud of ourselves. (hide spoiler)]

[Lynne]

Thanks for the citations on the aforementioned books. I was not familiar with the Dawkins book but will be wanting to check it out. I highly recommend the Tracy Chevalier book which gives more depth to the Mary Anning story which is briefly mentioned in our reading.

[Lynne]

Referring to Kathy's response on Chapter 3, yes I found the treatment of the auks abhorrent but then we as humans have done so many terrible things to cause destruction of species. The buffalo comes to mind when reading of the auk experience.

[Teri]

Response to G and a discussion comment for all

(view spoiler)[I am guessing that Kolbert did not consider that we still have "enthusiasts" today that make hunting exotic game a sport. Perhaps she was just being PC but "enthusiasts" is much too kind.

So in considering your comment my mind wandered, as it likes to do, and I went out to look for the process to put a species on the endangered/extinct list. I found some interesting information, that I'll put together for the glossary. There are many categories around extinct/endangered.

Of course, in 1844 there were no known extinct/endangered lists and no scandalous mega 24/7 media to talk about the near extinction of The Great Auk (or dismiss it when a reality star's latest faux pas trumps real news). Interestingly, we have this great list that helps us take note when a species is nearing extinction so that we can hopefully warn any of these "enthusiasts" not to kill off the final pair. The problem/concern I have is that the IUCN that is the governing group over the extinct/endanger list only meets every 4 years.

My question that I pose to you all for discussion: Is 4 years good timing or do you think that an entire species can go from strong surviving to near extinction in that amount of time, considering both our climate/natural forces or human-caused forces? (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Hi Lynne! Glad you are joining us.

Be sure to use the spoiler tags when specifically discussing the book (see messages 4 and 5 of this thread).

Response to Lynne's comments to Kathy

(view spoiler)[The more I read in this book and the more we all discuss, I am checking off in my mind all of the different species we have lost or are nearly losing due to "human-caused" forces/extinction. Quite sad and much room for education. (hide spoiler)]

[G]

(view spoiler)[ One of the things the author points out in these chapters is that the slower the reproductive cycle, the easier it is to exterminate a species. Those creatures with short reproductive cycles seem to adapt more easily and persist. Considering how quickly viruses, etc. reproduce AND adapt, the human species is in big trouble. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to G

(view spoiler)[Point well taken. Look at all the super virus' that are starting to spin up. The flu strains are getting stronger, not to mention the things we're not well prepared for like Ebola. (hide spoiler)]

[Vincent]

Teri wrote: "Response to G and a discussion comment for all

I am guessing that Kolbert did not consider that we still have "enthusiasts" today that make hunting exotic game a sport. Perhaps she was just being..."

(view spoiler)[Just regarding the meeting every four years of the IUCN I would comment that each country can also have their own mechanisms and of course there are organizations such as the Sierra Club etc that are constantly aware and taking positions - there is not a void of awareness and effort when any specific group does not meet (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Thanks for that info, Vincent!

Vincent wrote: "Teri wrote: "Response to G and a discussion comment for all

[Teri]

Summaries for Chapters V, VI, VII

Our discussion this week focuses on the mass extinctions of marine species.

(view spoiler)[
Chapter V - Welcome to the Anthropocene

Kolbert focuses this chapter on the extinction of the graptolites, a small fossilized species. We learn that about the time graptolites became extinct, carbon dioxide levels dropped, temperatures fell, and sea levels plummeted. Kolbert mentions the work of Crutzen who states that a third to a half of the land surface of the planet has changed over the course of time due to human activity. This brings about a discussion on the current geological age called the Anthropocene, that is perhaps caused by this human activity. The term Anthropocene is attributed to Paul Crutzen, a Dutch chemist that shared a Nobel prize for discovering effects of ozone-depleting compounds. Question: What do you think of the human-caused geological changes cited by Crutzen?


graptolites

Chapter VI - The Sea Around Us

This chapter focuses on the rise of carbon dioxide in our environment due to fossil fuels, deforestation, and human-caused contributions. This also affected the world's oceans by creating carbonic acid and increasing the pH balance. This in turn is killing our marine life. Kolbert discusses her time at Castello Aragonese and its failing marine life to support the concern. Question: 4. Do you see any way of slowing the acidification of the ocean? (pg118 tipping point is pH 7.8 – expected 2100)


Castello Aragonese

Chapter VII - Dropping Acid

Kolbert details the concern of the loss of coral reefs. Due to ocean acidification, corals may become extinct by the end of the century. Corals are unable to maintain needed calcification due to the decrease in aragonite saturation state. Couple that with the stresses of being eaten away by marine species, being battered by waves, and climate change and it's clear to see that coral cannot increase, and will likely not survive in time. Question: Even if ocean acidification was not a concern, do you think that coral reefs could survive the natural causes affecting them?


Coral of the Great Barrier Reef

(hide spoiler)]

[Kathy]

Chapter 4

(view spoiler)[In a perverse way, I feel a bit better about our future. What I got from this chapter is that no matter how bad the disaster, Nature seems to carry on. Some form of life somehow survives and evolves. So no matter how important we as a species feel and how badly we think we can hurt this planet, you can bet that life in one form or another will carry on.

Another point that surprises me is that the huge meteor wiping out the dinosaur hypothesis has only been around since the 1970's. And (tongue in cheek!) how about the author sticking her finger into the Gola del Bottaccione crack and swiping a hunk of clay from the K-Pg asteroid event. Isn't there a law about not doing that, you can't take petrified wood from the US national parks. I am joking about her behavior, but I am trying to point out that "saying" we should become more aware of how our behavior is affecting the planet is much easier than actually changing our behavior especially when we are unaware of the effect of our actions. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to Kathy

(view spoiler)[You make a good point Kathy - changing behavior is much harder than talking about it and I think we will find that out. But I am not that optimistic about the planet as we know it unless something changes. (hide spoiler)]

[Donna]

Random Thoughts on Ch V, VI, VII

(view spoiler)[ As an admittedly un-science person, this is my first encounter with some of the ideas in this book. I appreciated the explanation of the effects of increased carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and the concomitant increase in acidity of the ocean - both of which are contributing at an alarming rate to changes in the flora and fauna.

Something that surprised me was the idea the rats are in the best position to survive and take over the world - now that's a thought.

The chapter on the demise of the coral reef had the most impact on me in terms of spurring me to actively seek opportunities to support programs and policies to stop or reverse the trend.

I kept thinking as I was reading what exciting adventures the author had traveling from place to place to research the book. (hide spoiler)]

Question Does anyone know if there has been any specific rebuttal to the book or anyone who has refuted the ideas as Kolbert puts them forth?

[Helga]

Bentley, I agree with you. I don’t feel that optimistic about our planet either. We need to be aware of what is going on and make some changes.

We are helping the extinction of many animals. (view spoiler)[We have over fished our oceans and many species of fish are endangered. Our whales are diminishing having been over exploited for years. And I think Al Gore’s books have for years described the dangers on our planet due to climate change. He has written about the threats we face as Antarctica’s glaciers melt and the world’s oceans rise. He stated that one of the greatest threats to people is lack of freshwater which we need for clean drinking water and for agriculture. We have seen how the lack of water has affected California this year.

The melting glaciers causes flooding and intrusion of saltwater in our low-lying coastal areas and the saltwater intrusion can affect many areas. Shrinking glaciers also affect some mountainous parts of the world like the Andes. And flooding in places like Bangladesh. So other countries should be concerned.

The rising pH levels will impact our shellfish. This has already happened in some coastal areas in Maine and other states after heavy rains. The Gulf of Maine, from Cape Cod to Nova Scotia is especially vulnerable to acidification because CO2 is absorbed more readily in colder water. And there are many rivers that flow into it. The freshwater that drains from land is also more acidic than seawater and frequently carries sewage, organic matter and other nutrients that add CO2 to our coastal waters. (hide spoiler)]

by Al Gore

by Al Gore

by Al Gore

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Another interesting interview - Democracy Now

http://www.democracynow.org/2014/2/11...

Donna, I do not know - I did not see any but I would not be surprised since many stick their head in the sand and ignore what is actually happening around them. I am sure there are some.

You should watch the above - you will see one of our esteemed politicians debunk quite a bit of this (of course before the book came out but still).

Note: Representative Paul Broun speaking in 2012 - A leaked video of a speech given at Liberty Baptist Church Sportsman's Banquet on September 27, 2012, shows Broun telling supporters that, “All that stuff I was taught about evolution and embryology and the Big Bang Theory, all that is lies straight from the pit of Hell.” In addition, Broun also believes that the world is less than 9,000 years old and was created in six literal days. In response to these remarks, coupled with Broun being on the House Science Committee, libertarian radio talk show host Neil Boortz spearheaded a campaign to run the English naturalist and evolutionary theorist Charles Darwin against Broun, with the intention of drawing attention to these comments from the scientific community and having Broun removed from his post on the House Science Committee.

In 2008, Broun signed Americans for Prosperity's "No Climate Tax" pledge, promising to vote against any Global Warming legislation that would raise taxes. Broun has disputed the scientific consensus on climate change, saying that "scientists all over this world say that the idea of human induced global climate change is one of the greatest hoaxes perpetrated out of the scientific community. It is a hoax. There is no scientific consensus."

I am not sure if he counts as he has been rebutting this right along (smile).

Here is another interesting article of why things might not change here anytime soon:
5 Anti-Science Congressmen On The House Science Committee
January 14, 2013

http://www.nationalmemo.com/5-anti-sc...

Lamar Smith is chairman now I believe. But it goes without saying that the country voted for these people so what does that say.

[Teri]

Donna ~ I found this article that has a different take on extinction, but I don't think is an actual rebuttal

Rethinking Extinction
by Stewart Brand

http://aeon.co/magazine/science/why-e...

Brand also wrote the following book that may be worth perusing:

by Stewart Brand

[Teri]

Response to Kathy - Chapter 4

(view spoiler)[I think you make some great points. Personally, I do think that this epoch we are encountering is multi-faceted. I think that even without human intervention, the Earth would be ever-changing and species would come and go. However, I also believe that we are causing some major shifts that are preventable and we could be causing our own extinction as well as others. I don't think it's too little, too late for our lifetime. I am afraid it is for future generations.

It is obvious that humans are contributing to the destruction of the environment. At the very least, we should all want to do what we can to make this a better place for all species to live.

I definitely agree that awareness and education should be a focus. I think too many people are ignoring the discussion because it would be too inconvenient to make changes. (hide spoiler)]

[Teri]

Response to Donna on this week's reading

(view spoiler)[I am with you on being an "un-scientific person" and am appreciating the clear layman's discussion in the book.

As for the coral reefs, I was aware of issues but did not know the true impact. I remember snorkeling in Hawaii and getting a lecture on not touching the coral and being afraid I'd hit something accidentally. I don't think I had a true awareness of the issues with coral.

I was humored by the rat discussion. I have to admit that I had thoughts about the mouse king ruling the world when reading that.

(hide spoiler)]

[Kathy]

Saw this on Youtube this weekend and thought it was great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH573...

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

(Funny) but sadly true - hope the anti tourism ad works.

[Dey]

Nesting Tortoises

Chapters V-X read but not covered here in any detail.
(view spoiler)[ In the news recently was the Costa Rica nesting tortoises incident where droves of frolicking human tourists on holiday went romping carelessly about on the beach where scores of turtles' were laying eggs (or trying to). Could have been worse I suppose; I mean they weren't clubbing the cute little turtles over the head and having them for dinner like them great auks. "Creep, club, squawk. Repeat." It just shows how truly ignorant we can be at times of other creatures and to the highly sensitive environment in which we live and blindly "homogenize" (Ch 10 'The New Pangea'). But, this book is a wake-up call. And I hope it is not too late to make real changes. Maybe we should focus the majority of our efforts on CO2 and get that straight first. I'm devastated about the reefs, and the frogs, and the bats, and... Maybe God did make us too smart.

Here is a link to the recent NYTimes article about the tortoise nesting: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/19/wor... (hide spoiler)]

[Dey]

Kathy wrote: "Saw this on Youtube this weekend and thought it was great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH573..."

Thanks for that. Funny stuff. Now I'm never going on any tour of any kind ever again.

[Vincent]

just a comment on extinction comments before this msg.

(view spoiler)[I do believe that extinctions is as to species not the planet - so I assume the planet will do OK regardless of what we do - the Moon seems to be content with dust and no atmosphere and no water - Saturn with its rings and (to life as we know it) an unlivable environment - however one cannot but wonder how only one species here on Earth (it seems) has been able to change the environment for all the species - and - I must still look at about four items I put on my "to read" list from other comments - and whether our one species has the right to do this - it seems not from an ethical view to me (hide spoiler)]

[Vincent]

Chapter five comments

(view spoiler)[The Sixth Extinction – Chapter 5 – pgs. 92 – 110 – Welcome to the Anthropocene

I think/hope am beginning to see a tying together of the content of the book coming.

So now I am having names for the different extinctions

Ordovician
Permo-Triassic
End Permian
Impact at end of the Cretaceous

And am seeing various causes – stability is approx. 26 million year spacing? - Well we humans can change that – we can change everything on this earth given to us

So if we attribute the power to rats to cause extinctions then I think it has to come back to man as we seem to have provided transport – not to one species (which has certainly happened before man) but to so many so fast.

So can we take a universal approach to stopping the coming extinction? _ I think not – global warming would make it a truly great extinction but do we have to fight species by species also to win – tigers, elephants, greater sage grouse etc. – - At the end of this month the US fish & Wildlife folks must decide whether or not to list the Greater Sage Grouse as endangered – there has been some discussion in the environmental communities as to whether or not this would be better and it seems the consensus is that it will not be better than the various efforts currently in place by ranchers, oil and gas guys, state governments etc. and I did some study into the matter for myself – anyway the Greater Sage Grouse seems to realize that long term survival is the primary goal – oh that people could see that – even if just for their kids and grandkids. If you have about an hour and are interested try to watch The Sagebrush Sea on PBS.org – go to Nature there and then videos.

And will we be too unable to ignore short term comforts and life-styles to win (I am thinking of the recent Republican presidential primary debates) (hide spoiler)]

[Vincent]

Chapter Six comments

(view spoiler)[Chapter VI – The Sea Around Us – pgs 111- 124

So we have as a result of the CO2 also ocean acidification as well as global warming with similar threats to our delelpoed systmes of world survival. (not people but world survival) – these are two separate results of the additional CO2 in the air.

Does anyone know if these is any additional problem in the waters from the additional methane being released CH4?

The short section begun on page 113 and ending on 114 is just a great concise description/explanation of this problem.

Pg 123 para 2 notes the speed of change which prohibits “orderly evolution” (my term) as a means of coping which I assume nature would have done if this build up of CO2 developed “naturally”. (hide spoiler)]

[Vincent]

Chapter 7 comments

(view spoiler)[
The Sixth Extinction – chapter 7 pgs. 125 – 147 – Dropping Acid
So we have continuing acidification –
Pg 130 last para – “likely reefs will be the first major ecosystem….to become biologically extinct” – scary – so do we foresee the beginning of the system failures for our possible coming sixth extinction – certainly animal extinctions are beginning and I guess maybe certain species will beat the reefs to that first position
I did not know that the Great Barrier Reef was a coral reef – open my eyes. And I thin that I had known about coral spawn but hadn’t really thought about it.
So with the diving on the reef I become more aware of what an adventure the work of Ms. Kolbert must be. If I were more courageous I might be jealous.
And pg. 140 – Guadalupe Mountain in Texas is left from reefs of the Permian period – I plan/hope to be hiking there later this year. I will watch out for the coral. (hide spoiler)]

[Francie]

LOL! !

[Teri]

Chapter 7 images

(view spoiler)[Guadalupe Mountain Coral Fossils



(hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Dey wrote: "Nesting Tortoises
Chapters V-X read but not covered here in any detail.
In the news recently was the Costa Rica nesting tortoises incident where droves of frolicking human tourists on holiday w..."

(view spoiler)[Yes, it would be nice to focus and act on behalf of the planet on any front. (smile) (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Vincent wrote: "Chapter 7 comments


The Sixth Extinction – chapter 7 pgs. 125 – 147 – Dropping Acid
So we have continuing acidification –
Pg 130 last para – “likely reefs will be the first major ecosystem….to be..."

Excellent comments Vincent

[Teri]

Love that!

Kathy wrote: "Saw this on Youtube this weekend and thought it was great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH573..."

[Teri]

Response to Dey

(view spoiler)[Sad, but I agree, at least they weren't harming the tortoises. You would think they'd put some barrier up or something to keep people off the beach for that time. I wonder if this happens every year? (hide spoiler)]

Dey wrote: "Nesting Tortoises
Chapters V-X read but not covered here in any detail.
."

[Teri]

Vincent - Chapter 5 comments

(view spoiler)[Great comments and I agree with all that you say.

Thanks for the mention on the PBS series. Long term survival should be the goal and I agree, it is what is often not considered. How cute is this bird?! :-)


Greater Sage Grouse

BBC has a great website on the Five Extinctions:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/nature/extinctio...

(hide spoiler)]

Vincent wrote: "Chapter five comments

"

[Teri]

Vincent - Chapter 6

(view spoiler)[I found this article you may want to peruse:

'We're F'd': Methane Plumes Seep From Frozen Ocean Floors
By Brian Stallard Aug 05, 2014 12:52 PM EDT

http://www.natureworldnews.com/articl... (hide spoiler)]

Vincent wrote: "Chapter Six comments

Chapter VI – The Sea Around Us – pgs 111- 124

"

[Helga]

Teri wrote: "Vincent - Chapter 5 comments

Great comments and I agree with all that you say.

Thanks for the mention on the PBS series. Long term survival should be the goal and I agree, it is what is often no..."

Great comments. And good BBC synopsis of the Five extinctions.

[G]

Kathy wrote: "Saw this on Youtube this weekend and thought it was great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dH573..."

Funny, sad, true. Thanks for the link.

[G]

Vincent wrote: "Chapter five comments

The Sixth Extinction – Chapter 5 – pgs. 92 – 110 – Welcome to the Anthropocene

I think/hope am beginning to see a tying together of the content of the book coming.

So now I..."

(view spoiler)[ I agree with your thoughts, but if you look at the pollution in countries like China and India, with whom the U.S. has epic economic ties, what we do locally will have little impact on a global climatic catastrophe. And with the elected officials we put in place in the US, I am almost glad I am old so I won't be around to see the collapse. (hide spoiler)]

[Bentley, Group Founder, Leader, Chief]

Response to G

(view spoiler)[G I know but I think if the US made the move - India and China would too. I honestly do. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

Bentley wrote: "Response to G

[spoilers removed]"

I think other countries will be concerned eventually as they see problems in their countries. See my comments on message 176 about climate change and acidification.

[Donna]

Adding to G and Bentley

(view spoiler)[ I am not sure if or when India and China would follow suit, but I do think it's incumbent upon us to do what we can where we can. (hide spoiler)]

[Helga]

I agree, it is incumbent on the US to be the leader to do what we can and hope other countries will follow suit. However, the Pope who is in the US today and is addressing Congress over climate change will have GOP members who will boycot. They want to block positive actions on climate change. This is disheartening.

[Dey]

Teri wrote: "Chapter 7 images

Guadalupe Mountain Coral Fossils

"

You find the best images to post Teri! Thanks. -:)

[Dey]

Teri wrote: "Vincent - Chapter 6

I found this article you may want to peruse:

'We're F'd': Methane Plumes Seep From Frozen Ocean Floors
By Brian Stallard Aug 05, 2014 12:52 PM EDT

http://www.natureworldnews...."

I think this article's science (and spelling) is flawed. Seems a tad sensationalist.