DISCUSSION OPEN! - EMERGENCY GROUP READ - True Detective + The Yellow King

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Whitney wrote: "Stuff about True Detective..."

I'm not sure where it's going (I don't like to try & pre-empt these things) BUT I am enjoying spotting the subtle things like these..
(view spoiler)[Marty's kid (presumably the older one) drew this. It's shown on the wall in ep2 (or maybe 3): http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueDetective... (hide spoiler)]
also
(view spoiler)[These are some of the children's drawings, possibly of the King In Yellow (or possibly a cult leader?) http://imgur.com/a/iTH6U
First one is by Marty's daughter. Second two found at the school. (hide spoiler)]

[Jennifer]

I just want to see where this goes.....speculation...and lots of it!!!(view spoiler)[ Martys daughter might be more than just your average angry teenager...I mean (call me a prude) but 16 and found in the back of a car naked with 2 naked guys?? WOW. And didn't she do the pictures of the naked men?? (hide spoiler)]

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Jennifer wrote: "I just want to see where this goes.....speculation...and lots of it!!![spoilers removed]"

Exactly! I think (view spoiler)[she's been abused as a child, going on the overtly sexualised behaviour from a young age. Also, in the scene with her dolls, she'd arranged them so that there were people standing around watching. That first link I posted has a lot of other speculation, including whether or not she was abused by some sort of Yellow King cult. One interesting point someone made was how the grandfather said something to Marty like "Kids today - wearing crap all over their faces, and it's nothing but sex all the time." Very prophetic. (hide spoiler)]

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

In the picture I posted at the start of this thread, Cohle's watching a flock of birds in a spiral. (view spoiler)[and obviously there's a spiral theme throughout TD, along with the black stars (which also show up on a good many tattoos and clothes if you look carefully at various characters) (hide spoiler)] Has anyone noticed spirals in any of the stories yet?

[Jennifer]

Now time to binge watch the last 5 episodes to get ready for the final 2. Final 2 of this season?? Does anyone know if it all ends here??

[Whitney]

Jennifer wrote: "Now time to binge watch the last 5 episodes to get ready for the final 2. Final 2 of this season?? Does anyone know if it all ends here??"

It's an 8 episode miniseries. Then done.

Done with this story, I should say. It will be like "American Horror Story", a new miniseries each season.

[Whitney]

And, my further 2 cents on what's to come in True Detective:

(view spoiler)[ I really don't think that there's going to be a lot of "oh my God, this person really had that going on all the time" rug pulling, ala "The Following". The show is too grounded for that. In the end I think it's going to finish building it's edifice on solid, true detective ground, not gee whiz plot twists.

I think where we'll have the more speculative element is in how the occurrences resonate with the different philosophies of the two detectives; i.e. are they in a sense a manifestation of Chole's pessimism, or of Hart's hypocrisy towards his proclaimed 'family man' values? I think that's what the repeated yellow crown and spiral symbols are indicating, how these things are connected philosophically, not literally. But then, we'll know a lot more in 3 weeks. (hide spoiler)]

[Richard]

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics...

Kinda matches what I'd been thinking about Detective, kudos for referencing The Fall as well

(Note, posted as a cool article rather than an inflammatory thing)

[Whitney]

Richard wrote: "http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics...

Kinda matches what I'd been thinking about Detective, kudos for referencing The Fall as w..."

The following talks about the show in a general way. So skip it if you think that may be a spoiler.

I saw this article, and I actually agree with a lot of what it says. But I still think the strengths of the show outweigh the failings. It has been driving me nuts that all the woman on the show fall into the mammy / Madonna paradigm. But as far as the 'male hero', these are the Micky Spillane type of Male Heroes deconstructed.

Top of the Lake was great, though.

Edited to add: I meant to say "Madonna/Whore", not "Mammy/Madonna". I'm mixing my social theory metaphors up.

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

I saw a similar article on... I wanna say boingboing or something similar?....but the line they disagree on is (view spoiler)["What we're seeing is supposed to be what really happened." They (and I) put forward the view that what we're seeing is from the perspective of the characters. So the other characters (like the biker gang for instance, or..say...many of the women thus far) do come off as 2-dimensional, because that's how a man from the south experiences them. They were also disappointed with Marty's wife's big appearance though, and I will say that I thought it was a bit lacking too.

I did like the bunny ranch madam's speech though. "..suddenly you don't own it like you thought you did." It comes off like a punch in the face, and I cheered out loud. (hide spoiler)]

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Here it is: (True Detective spoilers) http://boingboing.net/2014/02/23/true...

[Jennifer]

Ruby wrote: "I saw a similar article on... I wanna say boingboing or something similar?....but the line they disagree on is "What we're seeing is supposed to be what really happened." They (and I) put forward t...(view spoiler)[

That was one of the best lines ever. It was a good right hook. (hide spoiler)]

[Marc]

Whitney wrote: "Both Halberk and Louis discuss Wilde with Hildred in scenes that seem to imply that what they are saying is correctly represented..."

[I've read the first story, and two of the Chambers's stories. Comments below focused on the "Repairer of Reputations"... ]

The reader is forced to rely on the "sane" characters reactions to Hildred, I think (e.g., his glorious diadem and buzzing safe appear to his cousin as nothing more than some worthless trinket and a shelf or something). On the surface, Hildred doesn't appear to see anything or anyone that's not there, but he doesn't see them accurately--does that seem fair to say? Are there unreliable narrators in True Detective?

I was about to ask what was up with that cat, but we keep one around like that (OK, not quite as bad), so I've no room to judge.

Not too many comments on that first story (which I also enjoyed). We seem to have a pattern here of things appearing to be one way but being of a whole other reality in actuality (life/death, sanity/insanity, eternal-petrification/temporary-sculptural-stasis... ), but maybe I'm just looking for patterns because we've grouped these stories together.

Ruby, thanks for the online links (I thought I had at least the Lovecraft stories in paper form, but my collection doesn't include the story mentioned)!

[Whitney]

Ruby wrote: "I saw a similar article on... I wanna say boingboing or something similar?....but the line they disagree on is "What we're seeing is supposed to be what really happened." They (and I) put forward t..."

Okay, my somewhat cranky response to this article:

(view spoiler)[

This argument is valid to a point, but it takes on the most easily refuted criticisms of the show. Yes, it's from the perspective of a couple old-school southern detectives. A drug raid on the projects isn't going to show the people who live there that volunteer at soup kitchens, teach underprivileged kids, and take care of their aged grandparents. Those people are huddling under tables and praying for the gunfire to stop.

Same goes for the biker gang. We're seeing the baddest of the bad because that's the nature of the case, and their rich inner life isn't really relevant. And the crude, locker room male bonding - also a reasonable representation of the characters. No one is implying these guys are saints, and most of us can tell the difference between a racist or sexist character and a racist or sexist TV show.

My complaint, and the one that got breezed over in the article, is that all the woman are two dimensional nourishing mothers or shameless whores. And, of course, victims to motivate manly men to outrage and action. And claiming it's just because that's how Chole and Hart perceive the world is ridiculous. We're seeing recreations of events, not just fragments of unreliable memories. And if that was somehow the implication, then Maggie's scene with the (also two-dimensional) detectives was indeed the chance to make that clear.

Pizzolatto himself has hinted that next season may be more from a female perspective. That could go either way. Hopefully the two-dimensionality of this season will prove to have been as a result of the milieu being presented, and not inherent failings of the production team.

And, having just engaged in a lengthy rant, let me again say that I love the show. I still think the production values far outweigh the political incorrectness. But, like a favorite uncle who suddenly blurts out how Hilary Clinton should be home baking cookies, the flaws are that much more disappointing. (hide spoiler)]

[Derek]

Ruby, you @#$%T^&*(!!!

Now I've gone and downloaded the first four episodes…

[Whitney]

I know, right? She needs to be stopped. How about a squad of ninja goannas? And maybe some of those really scary-ass spiders they have over there?

[Jennifer]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Ruby, you @#$%T^&*(!!!

Now I've gone and downloaded the first four episodes…"

I don't feel that you will be disappointed. And for the record. I have never like anything that Mathew what his name has been in....He and Woody are outstanding.I guess I might need to see 'The Dallas Buyers Club" now.

[Whitney]

Jennifer wrote: " don't feel that you will be disappointed. And for the record. I have never like anything that Mathew what his name has been in....He and Woody are outstanding.I guess I might need to see 'The Dallas Buyers Club" now. .."

I recommend "Dazed and Confused", "Mud", or "Bernie". He is good in all of them.

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Whitney wrote: "I know, right? She needs to be stopped. How about a squad of ninja goannas? And maybe some of those really scary-ass spiders they have over there?"

BWAHAHAHA! If you can come up with something scarier than the shit I have to put up with daily, feel free! In the last two days alone I have dealt with a baby goanna who seems to think I'm his mum, a very fat (possibly pregnant) gecko who lost his tail in a mid-air Swanky encounter and is now hiding out in my wardrobe (of course, I had to dispose of the still-wiggling tail), a thing that appears to be a cross between a butterfly and a wasp (I call it the Wasperfly), giant bull ants plus a tantrum-throwing-possum during the meditation part of my yoga class... I won't even go into the eerie howling that has started up across the street at night, which may or may not be a dingo.

[Whitney]

Marc wrote: "On the surface, Hildred doesn't appear to see anything or anyone that's not there, but he doesn't see them accurately--does that seem fair to say? Are there unreliable narrators in True Detective? ..."

I think that's fair to say for the most part, but I'm still uncertain about Vance, with his appearance from nowhere. I loved the way Hildred's poor long-suffering cousin's reactions were presented.

Spoiler for some very general TD comments:

(view spoiler)[ There are unreliable narrators in the sense of having their perceptions and assumptions clouded by experience and personal blind spots, and there are some suggestions that maybe one of them is not quite as he's been presented. (hide spoiler)]

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Whitney wrote: "Some stuff about True Detective..."

My thoughts:(view spoiler)[I don't feel the same way about the female characters in the show. I think something's obviously a-brewin' with regard to the teenage daughter which may make that clearer. Also, there are some more subtle moments between the women in Marty's family that show some deeper understanding on the part of the writers, in particular reactions to the things Marty says and thinks. No, there aren't any very well fleshed out female characters, but then there are only two main characters in this story that are fleshed out. I think they lost an opportunity to with Marty's wife's character in e6, but that's the only issue I have. (hide spoiler)]

Marc wrote: "I was about to ask what was up with that cat, but we keep one around like that (OK, not quite as bad), so I've no room to judge..."

Hehe. It is a good point though. It does make me think that at least Wilde is real.

[Derek]

Jennifer wrote: "I don't feel that you will be disappointed. And for the record. I have never like anything that Mathew what his name has been in......."

Actually, I've always thought McConaughey highly underrated. It's Woody Harrelson I can't stand.

[Marc]

How the heck did Carcosa become such a popular reference?!! Don't get me wrong, I really enjoyed Bierce's story, but the name/city seems to have taken on a life of its own.

Whitney, this "mammy/madonna" thing sounds much more interesting ; )

[Derek]

I think that was Lovecraft. He's the one who deliberately took elements of prior stories and incorporated them into his, to create an entire mythos that appeared to have been familiar to writers for a century or more.

When one man writes about Carcosa, it's a creation. When four or five do, it's either an archetype, truth, or a conspiracy!

[Marc]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "When one man writes about Carcosa, it's a creation. When four or five do, it's either an archetype, truth, or a conspiracy! ..."

Bierce --> Chambers --> Lovecraft --> CARCOSA MYTHOS/CONSPIRACY

[Whitney]

Marc wrote: "Whitney, this "mammy/madonna" thing sounds much more interesting ; ) ..."

It's pretty much the same thing as Madonna/Whore, but with regards to specifically black characters. I think it was first used by Bell Hooks in reference to female characters in Spike Lee films. The dichotomy is "Mammy/Madonna" or "Bitch/'Ho".

I thought Lee's film "Summer of Sam" was interesting in that he seemed to be addressing his own tendency towards these two archetypes / stereotypes.

[Derek]

Ruby wrote: "I'm watching nothing but replays of the first 5 eps in between reading the stories that inspired the mythology, plus playing around with a music playlist inspired by the show..... heaven. :)"

I knew the music was going to be great when I saw the T. Bone Burnett credit, but I was over the moon when I caught the tune right before that Kingdom of Heaven piece. Cuff the Duke, If I Live or Die. They're such a tiny Canadian indie group that when I saw them live it was in my friend Jeff's living room!

So, I'm two episodes in, and not terribly thrilled by any of it yet, except the music. Time for some reading.

[Derek]

Marc wrote: "Bierce --> Chambers --> Lovecraft --> CARCOSA MYTHOS/CONSPIRACY"

btw, this infects even decidedly non-Weird authors. The name Hastur has come up a couple of times, and Hali is mentioned at the beginning of An Inhabitant of Carcosa. These are a family name and a place, respectively, in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels!

[Whitney]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Marc wrote: "Bierce --> Chambers --> Lovecraft --> CARCOSA MYTHOS/CONSPIRACY"

btw, this infects even decidedly non-Weird authors. The name Hastur has come up a couple of times, and Hali is mention..."

Hastur also makes appearances in the Cthulhu mythos, especially the stories of August Derleth.

Heard some interesting titbits on hppodcraft. After reading the King in Yellow, I'd assumed Lovecraft cribbed the idea of the Necronomicon from 'The Yellow King' (i.e. a book that drives you insane if you read it). But he apparently hadn't yet read Chambers when he invented the Necronomicon. Later, in 'The History of the Necronomicon', he wrote the following:

"The book is rigidly suppressed by the authorities of most countries, and by all branches of organised ecclesiasticism. Reading leads to terrible consequences. It was from rumours of this book (of which relatively few of the general public know) that R.W. Chambers is said to have derived the idea of his early novel The King in Yellow."

Re: True Detective. If you haven't bought in after the first episode, I don't hold out great hopes for it happening. But the music stays great!

[Richard]

2 episodes in and we haven't gone back to it yet. or is it 3? i can't remember now

we got stalled by rewatching Ghostbusters after harold ramis died, and tonight i'm off seeing Wolf Creek 2 with a blood lust mate who's asked for company. We've a stack of documentaries piled up at home waiting to be watched as well

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "btw, this infects even decidedly non-Weird authors. The name Hastur has come up a couple of times, and Hali is mentioned at the beginning of An Inhabitant of Carcosa. These are a family name and a place, respectively, in Marion Zimmer Bradley's Darkover novels! .."

Yep - I've seen her mentioned in a couple of the pieces listing key Yellow King authors (and she's in the wikipedia entry).

I'm about 1/3 of the way through Lovecraft's "Whisperer.." and loving it. Although I've read & enjoyed some Lovecraft before, I've never found a story I really loved, but I have hopes that this might be The One. I have chills already.

Some links I've spotted too:
-True Detective includes a reference to Lovecraft's "Whisperer.." (view spoiler)[The standing stones are referenced in e4 when Lange tells the detectives that Ledoux told him about a group of rich men who would get together for sacrifices of women and children for devil worship. The place where there's "lotsa good killin'". (hide spoiler)]
-"Whisperer" (Ch. 3) includes something that sounds to me like an echo of Chambers: (view spoiler)[ On the wax recording when the man and the crab-thing are praising their masters. "And he shall put on the semblance of Man, the waxen mask and the robe that hides, and come down from the world of Seven Suns.." All the Chambers Yellow King references include his robe (or mantle), and there's the Mask story too. (hide spoiler)]

[Derek]

Ruby wrote: "Here it is: (True Detective spoilers) http://boingboing.net/2014/02/23/true..."

The article was interesting enough, but I should never have clicked through to the discussion. So McFarland thinks Maggie's character doesn't get developed enough, and the BoingBoing crowd start arguing that the show isn't misogynistic.…

[Whitney]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "Ruby wrote: "Here it is: (True Detective spoilers) http://boingboing.net/2014/02/23/true..."

The article was interesting enough, but I should never have clicked throug..."

I'm gonna stop you at " should never have clicked through to the discussion".

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

How about this for a question: Do any of Lovecraft's stories have female protagonists? I was just thinking about the common elements to the stories I've read, and (in the ones I've read anyway) the central character is always a man (with little variation between those characters it seems to me, too). Can anybody who has read more Lovecraft comment?

[Derek]

Whitney wrote: “I'm gonna stop you at " should never have clicked through to the discussion".”

Well, you could have done that before...

[Derek]

Ruby wrote: "How about this for a question: Do any of Lovecraft's stories have female protagonists? I was just thinking about the common elements to the stories I've read, and (in the ones I've read anyway) the..."

Sign of the times. I don't think men ever wrote about women in those days. The only author of the approximate time, outside the genre, who I can recall reading is Hemingway — not many women there. Tolkien is famously bad with women — both in his fiction and his life.

[Whitney]

Ruby wrote: "How about this for a question: Do any of Lovecraft's stories have female protagonists? I was just thinking about the common elements to the stories I've read, and (in the ones I've read anyway) the..."

Not really. There are a few woman here and there, but mostly little seen wives. There is one where a 'mother' is the monster. Lovecraft was well known for his lack of female characters and complete lack of sex, despite continual implications that unholy unions took place at some point.

There is a great story by Carrie Vaughn called 'Fishwife', which is prequel to the Lovecraft story "The Shadow Over Innsmouth" from a female perspective. It can be found online. I recommend reading "Shadow" first, though.

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Whitney wrote: "Ruby wrote: "How about this for a question: Do any of Lovecraft's stories have female protagonists? I was just thinking about the common elements to the stories I've read, and (in the ones I've re..."

Thanks. It's funny you should mention, "Shadow". That's the one story I can't remember if I read or not. I'll have to check the books..

[Whitney]

Ruby wrote: "Thanks. It's funny you should mention, "Shadow". That's the one story I can't remember if I read or not. I'll have to check the books..."

If you search for Mike Bennet podcasts, he does a great reading of that one. Also "The Music of Eric Zahn"

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Whitney wrote: "Ruby wrote: "Thanks. It's funny you should mention, "Shadow". That's the one story I can't remember if I read or not. I'll have to check the books..."

If you search for Mike Bennet podcasts, he d..."

Thanks. I'll keep that in mind for when I'm done with Charles Dexter Ward. I've probably got about one more sitting of that left.

[Whitney]

I read Raymond Chandler's story "The King in Yellow", since I already had a copy of The Simple Art of Murder. I could have sworn I'd read it before, but I had no memory whatsoever of this Story. It's definitely lesser Chandler, and nothing really to do with Chambers, except the title and a gratuitous mention.

The title essay of this collection is really good, though. Also nothing to do with The King in Yellow. A little to do with True Detective, I guess, in the sense that Chandler was one of the originators of the tough guy detective archetype.

[Whitney]

Ruby wrote: "BWAHAHAHA! If you can come up with something scarier than the shit I have to put up with daily, feel free!..."

[Whitney]

Here is what Lovecraft wrote about Chambers in Supernatural Horror in Literature, for interested parties. While it does discuss "TheYellow Sign" in some detail, I'm mostly spoiling it to save some space.

(view spoiler)[ Very genuine, though not without the typical mannered extravagance of the eighteen-nineties, is the strain of horror in the early work of Robert W. Chambers, since renowned for products of a very different quality. The King in Yellow, a series of vaguely connected short stories having as a background a monstrous and suppressed book whose perusal brings fright, madness, and spectral tragedy, really achieves notable heights of cosmic fear in spite of uneven interest and a somewhat trivial and affected cultivation of the Gallic studio atmosphere made popular by Du Maurier's Trilby. The most powerful of its tales, perhaps, is The Yellow Sign, in which is introduced a silent and terrible churchyard watchman with a face like a puffy grave-worm's. A boy, describing a tussle he has had with this creature, shivers and sickens as he relates a certain detail. "Well, it's Gawd's truth that when I 'it 'im 'e grabbed me wrists, Sir, and when I twisted 'is soft, mushy fist one of 'is fingers come off in me 'and." An artist, who after seeing him has shared with another a strange dream of a nocturnal hearse, is shocked by the voice with which the watchman accosts him. The fellow emits a muttering sound that fills the head "like thick oily smoke from a fat-rendering vat or an odour of noisome decay." What he mumbles is merely this: "Have you found the Yellow Sign?"
A weirdly hieroglyphed onyx talisman, picked up on the street by the sharer of his dream, is shortly given the artist; and after stumbling queerly upon the hellish and forbidden book of horrors the two learn, among other hideous things which no sane mortal should know, that this talisman is indeed the nameless Yellow Sign handed down from the accursed cult of Hastur — from primordial Carcosa, whereof the volume treats, and some nightmare memory of which seeks to lurk latent and ominous at the back of all men's minds. Soon they hear the rumbling of the black-plumed hearse driven by the flabby and corpse-faced watchman. He enters the night-shrouded house in quest of the Yellow Sign, all bolts and bars rotting at his touch. And when the people rush in, drawn by a scream that no human throat could utter, they find three forms on the floor — two dead and one dying. One of the dead shapes is far gone in decay. It is the churchyard watchman, and the doctor exclaims, "That man must have been dead for months." It is worth observing that the author derives most of the names and allusions connected with his eldritch land of primal memory from the tales of Ambrose Bierce. Other early works of Mr. Chambers displaying the outré and macabre element are The Maker of Moons and In Search of the Unknown. One cannot help regretting that he did not further develop a vein in which he could so easily have become a recognised master. (hide spoiler)]

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Holy shit! Have you seen this insanely detailed infographic representation of True Detective? (Some spoilers - reference to yellow King)
http://www.wekeeptheotherbadmenfromth...

[Derek]

I give up. I gave it three episodes and nothing happens. Life is to short to spend it watching boring TV.

I'll keep up with the King In Yellow and other reading, but I couldn't care less about the TV series.

[Whitney]

Derek (Guilty of thoughtcrime) wrote: "I give up. I gave it three episodes and nothing happens. Life is to short to spend it watching boring TV.

I'll keep up with the King In Yellow and other reading, but I couldn't care less about th..."

Like I said before, if you weren't drawn in by the first episode, it probably wasn't going to happen. I think three is going above and beyond. Points for sticking it out. Can we all watch "The Fall" now?

[Richard]

The Fall is fantastic. It's the other end of the spectrum from True Detective and feels like it could actually be happening right now. Chilling and brilliant!

[Ruby , Mistress of Chaos]

Whitney wrote: "Ruby wrote: "BWAHAHAHA! If you can come up with something scarier than the shit I have to put up with daily, feel free!..."

"

I only just saw this. Koalas won't kill you. They'll give you a nasty dose of chlamydia, but they won't kill you.

[Marc]

Quote of the Day: "Koalas won't kill you. They'll give you a nasty dose of chlamydia, but they won't kill you."

I liked the firs two Chambers stories quite a bit, but the last two felt more like work than enjoyment (still trying to decide if I'm going to finish the collection). I really like the King in Yellow as a device to tie them all together and the notion of a book that drives people mad (well, at least the 2nd chapter) is wonderful.

Not too many comments about the Lovecraft story. Kinda felt like it went on forever. By the time I got to the end I no longer cared what was truth and what was fiction...

[Whitney]

Ruby wrote: "Whitney wrote: "Ruby wrote: "BWAHAHAHA! If you can come up with something scarier than the shit I have to put up with daily, feel free!..."
I only just saw this. Koalas won't kill you. They'll..."

I know (well,not about the chlamydia), but I thought it was pretty funny that with all the truly creepy-ass things crawling and swimming around down there, the person who made this chose a koala - an animal who's response to threat is to fall asleep. In their defense, though, it is a pretty bad ass looking koala.