July Discussion: style and technique / Curse of the Mistwraith

[Janny]

The style chosen to present this story has often raised controversy - what did you think?

If you are a writer, some of you indicated you wished to discuss angles of technique, or dissect the nuts and bolts aspects of storytelling. Since knowledge is better than ignorance, feel free to ask anything about the construction of building suspense. I'll answer from my experience, and welcome anyone else sharing what they know.

The discussion is open to what you feel makes, or breaks, the unfolding of story on paper.

[Jim]

Janny, what about the style raised controversy? It's high fantasy & I like the interludes. I like the variety of perspectives, too. I know I have to read every word you write - no skimming allowed! I don't see anything controversial about it, though.

It's certainly not an easy read like one of Eddings' books. I hate reading it for just 10 minutes at a time - I want an hour or I'd rather not pick it up. Too much detail & various threads to sink back into.

[Leslie Ann]

I'm most interested in how you come up with all your beautiful and interesting similes, and how you think of such novel ways of describing things. For instance,

The consciousness Arithon touched held a predator's leashed aggression paired with tempered steel

or

...a mind already mauled by the quandaries of duty


These are just two gorgeous examples, and not even the most breathtaking. I stand in awe...What's your secret? :-)

[Janny]

Jim wrote: "Janny, what about the style raised controversy? It's high fantasy & I like the interludes. I like the variety of perspectives, too. I know I have to read every word you write - no skimming allow..."

Jim - you've hit it - the skimmers particularly, and some of the light readers get pretty annoyed, because they can't rush, or skip through stuff...they try anyway, and don't get it, and lose the story for their lack of patience or focus (or whatever, some call it boredom), and not a few over the years have been piquantly outspoken about it. (see the review and ratings line up and note the one with the most comments, to see an example).

I respect that this book was not written for everyone. I don't write a deliberately "convolute" style or use "big words" - I use the word I know as the precision tool that presents the most exacting meaning. That word's in my head, just ready, not looked up, or found in a Thesaurus.

It has been proved by research that if thought is slowed down, experience intensifies. I want the intensity, and built for that, as the ending finale will graphically demonstrate.

People who finish do not forget this book.

The style is one of the reasons why - it was designed to impact as a graphic, emotional, even visceral experience.

Some don't want to feel that intensity - I wouldn't either, in certain moods. Some readers, also, don't want to think, or to have an opinion on their own, that is not fed to them. This book demands thought, and demands revision of that thought - and that tendency to revise opinion and stay open to change increases as the series progresses.

Not like a comfort book, where the enemies and the heros stay totally static and predicatable, volume on volume.

I am not writing that sort of story at all.

But controversy happens when people get outspoken or disappointed, when a book whacks their private expectations.

[Janny]

Leslie wrote: "I'm most interested in how you come up with all your beautiful and interesting similes, and how you think of such novel ways of describing things. For instance,

The consciousness Arithon touched..."

Leslie - my first secret - READ. Don't watch TV, because the language of most entertainment is dumbed down. Read books written before popular culture and high volume numbers shifted perspectives...let that all sink in.

Next, well - study music and paint. These shift the boundaries of perception, often dramatically, and use other areas of the brain...

Then look for the FEEL and the ATMOSPHERE behind what you want to say - and search your mind by association, bend the lines just a bit - and seek fusion of concepts that opens the gateway to originality.

Not a secret a bit - it's a discipline. Finding originality is only as far as reaching into your pool of experience and reassembling it in your own unique way.

Also read the fantasy stylists: Kay and Hambly and Berg; as well as the classical stylists and historical writers who do detail supremely well. They will inspire you, surely. I am always on the lookout for great books - that have story and style braided together.

[Elise]

Yes, it's definitely a style you have to take your time with. Normally I don't do as well with slower paced books, but with this one I just read it, and I'm in awe with the language.

[Jim]

Ah! Now I get it. I didn't think that really qualified as controversial the way I was thinking of it. I've read some of the reviews of this book on Amazon. Interesting correlation between the quality of the reviews & the rating of your book.

;-)

[Jon]

I savored the depth of the read. I definitely experienced more fully and deeply the characters and the world. I am often guilty of skimming, but felt no compulsion to skip ahead while reading this rich tale.

[Janny]

In a general response to everyone here, there is another reason for the care and detail and pacing, which the style highlights: there is no small detail in this series book I, which will not come back, bigger, stronger, and in a depth that will shift perspective, often radically, later on.

Beware of the simplified assumptions - on characters, on the politics, on the forms of government and law - what is presented here as a simple or apparent-view template - (because I could not open all of the tremendous complexities at once, it would have overburdened the story) - is going to gain depth and force and encounter change as the story moves forward.

This is the "stage setting" volume - and in many ways, I think, works the reader hard to handle the weight of that. If the reader picks it up expecting the role-play styled fantasy adventure, or the romp and stomp, where Good Tramples Evil in the heroic mould, well, that makes for a disappointment.

The fact it doesn't take the formulaic course trips some people...I've actually gotten apology notes from readers who hated this, waited five years, and tried again and were stunned by what they had missed.

There is such a variety of fantasy to pick from, now, that in some ways, readers' discernment has matured.

I never chose to write for the people who wanted the beaten path - if some people feel threatened when boundaries get pushed, well, that's the risk any author takes when they give out their work to others.

What I really appreciate is the quality of the readers here, supportive of so many varieties of taste.

[Chris]

The style here at times reminds me of Steven Erikson. Like in his stories, there are times when I have to keep reading and hope that it starts to make sense as the story comes together. And for the most part, it does. It's very beatifully crafted language that reminds me of Kay's work (from Tigana at least). That's not a bad combination....like Erikson, this isn't a quick and easy read, but it is worth it as it all comes together...

[Janny]

Chris wrote: "The style here at times reminds me of Steven Erikson. Like in his stories, there are times when I have to keep reading and hope that it starts to make sense as the story comes together. And for the..."

Steven Erikson is certainly hallmarked by his startling twists and convergencies, yes.

What I appreciate is your attentiveness, waiting for the things that don't mesh instantly to fall into place - as they will, with increasing importance, not just for this volume, but for the series as a whole. This lays the foundation. For Mistwraith, the hardest thing was to show that foundation in story, by encounter, rather than just "tell it" with the tired "historical prelude" or shove massive amounts if information into dialogue (read, sloppy technique, because people don't talk that way) or put lumps into the text. As stage-setter, this volume required a lot of background unfoldment, woven into the active present. That was the hardest of challenges, and I'm sure, a challenge for the new reader, was well.

To be shown things that don't appear to have meaning, until suddenly, the action is standing on it.

What does not come together in this volume will, and with an explosive twist, in another. Nothing was put here except by design.

Thank you so kindly for your comparison to Kay, I've adored his work for the very first - and to Erikson, whose work I am glad to see, is finally receiving the attention it has so richly deserved from enthusiasts on this side of the pond.

If people here wish to ask on any specific point (that may not be developed in this book to their satisfaction) I can respond, at least, with non-spoiling sidebars, or name which volume holds the explosive unfoldment. Just be sure to address that sort of question to me, so I don't leave it open for the general discussion.

[Stefan]

I'm not sure if this would fall under style - maybe more structure - but one of the aspects of the book I am enjoying very much are the three story fragments that conclude every chapter. They give the book a cinematic quality: a few short glimpses of what is going on elsewhere. It's a neat technique, and very effective at keeping the different threads of the story together.

[Jim]

My wife is halfway through The Master of Whitestorm, one of Janny's stand alone books. We were talking about it last night & she said she liked Sorcerer's Legacy (Janny's first novel & another stand alone) better because of the personal POV. She really likes the interplay of the characters which isn't in the narrative POV in 'Master'. Still a good story, though.

I tend to agree with Marg on the POV generally, but there are so many POV's in this series that I think it would get too confusing. I've known other authors to change POV's each chapter. Sometimes it works well, but often it gets too confusing. Did you think about doing that when you were writing this, Janny?

I agree that the 3 fragments at the end really add a lot to the story & my understanding.

[Janny]

Stefan wrote: "I'm not sure if this would fall under style - maybe more structure - but one of the aspects of the book I am enjoying very much are the three story fragments that conclude every chapter. They give..."

Thanks for noticing the unconventional formatting. The story demanded this - there were too many events that needed to be shown, but that, if written in a point of view detail, would have slowed down or bogged the pace. When only a sliver of fact was required to move the story forward, I used just that momentary glimpse to keep the impetus.

If you had not yet noticed a significant thing about the way this book is styled: THE ACTION NEVER LOOPS BACKWARD. Yes, there may be the momentary character flashback - but this series NEVER does the fantasy epic dance step, where you see what's going on, then skip back in time to forward what another character was doing.

All the action is either simultaneous, or forward, from the story moment viewed.

This may not have been too difficult to produce for volume I - but in the latter volumes, a LOT of time went into intricate working out of logistics and time-frames to know just how to keep this momentum happening. Everything from dates, phases of the moon, distances traveled - all worked into timelines, where the action spaced closely. Just picking which character to show the next step could become a hair ripping, rug treading act of fusion.

But I knew I just HATED that opening phrase, 'six months ago' argh! NOT HERE.

In subsequent volumes I borrowed a spark from C. J. Cherryh and put the date at the top of each chapter - wish I'd done that for Mistwraith/Ships/Warhost - something I'd like to remedy, some day, but haven't gotten the go for the reset, yet, even though I have campaigned.

The inspiration for the chapter formats you see in this book came from Roger Zelazny's title, Lord of Light. He used a similar set of snipped triplets cut by brief, standard chapters in that story. In his case, though, he used the creativity to emphasize a point happening in the background, repeated again and again, like a chorus, at set intervals. I kept the triplet form in tribute to his genius, but used my "sets" to move the direct action.

I know there are Zelazny readers here who will appreciate this tidbit! And Cherryh enthusiasts, as well.

[Janny]

Jim wrote: "My wife is halfway through The Master of Whitestorm, one of Janny's stand alone books. We were talking about it last night & she said she liked Sorcerer's Legacy (Janny..."

Jim, yes, I did think long and carefully, and over years, to decide just how to present the intricate complexity in this series.

One of the drawbacks of the tight personal point of view in Sorcerer's Legacy, is you always know what is happening inside the main characters' head...part of the mystery drawing you on in The Master of Whitestorm is that you don't know what the hero is thinking. You see his actions from an outside character, and part of what draws you into fascination is trying to figure out what drives him. As the book unfolds, you gradually realize that the people who "hire" him to do the impossible job have no idea they are feeding the fires of his inner conflicts. (I know that's a vague statement, but I don't want to spoil in case anyone wants to read the book!)

The character lead in Master of Whitestorm in many was was a "dry run exercise" for depicting Arithon - they are not the same character - but - if I could handle Korendir's complexities from outside vantage, it would sound the skills I needed to do Arithon. Further, Whitestorm began as a sequence of short stories. The editor who bought it wanted an "epic fantasy trilogy." Well. It wasn't epic. It was no way a trilogy. I rewelded it into the novel form, but in many ways, it retained its episodic flavor. This worked, there, because it gave episodic views into the changes that slowly seep into Korendir's action, until you reach the inveiling of his character. In some ways, it's the perfect form for the story - but - in others, readers coming to it feel the seams...the episodic format is not as smooth as the flow in the standard novel.

The other standalone To Ride Hell's Chasm, in many ways marries the best of both worlds - uses the standard, seamless novel format, but weaves in the outside view of the character in the spotlight, until, the time comes to unveil the mystery of what drives him, and then, the ending slides into closely intimate point of view.

If you look at the order in which any author's career books were written, you will see the groundwork laid - or at least in my case, very clearly. All the earlier works were, really, dress rehearsals for aspects of story telling I knew I'd need to complete Light and Shadows.

Light and Shadows is by far and away the more intricate work. If you think of it as many parallel novels, worked around one central theme and a conflict, you will hit it - but the story is cautiously orchestrated not to overwhelm, and all of the threads braid and cross the central issues. So you move in step with Arithon and Lysaer, and gradually add the stories of the other factions and characters, until, like a symphony, all the themes entangle into one inextricable whole.

The challenge lay in building the ground with bare bones care for simplicity, at first - and simple it is not...but the drivers for Mistwraith are not the only ones. The power will emerge as each bit spins into place and gains momentum. Not possible to do in one volume, or in small episodic views.

I will promise this: you will come to care for far more than just the half-brothers' plights. AND. Significant: you will NOT be overwhelmed or snowed under by the addition of a cast of thousands!!! (One epic fantasy writer of note: has some what, TWO THOUSAND character threads by vol, what, ten?) I am NOT doing this. The addition of characters will be very small, reach a platform, and not grow out of bounds. I think I counted once - arc III added only some six to ten names that were significant, and they were brought in slowly - small bit parts that accreted gradually until by Stormed Fortress, you knew them well.

What you see in this volume will deepen, majestically. It will not sprawl. I had YEARS (count em, 20) of working the ideas, writing drafts, refitting the working parts, before Mistwraith was sold. It was given to its US editor COMPLETE. I wrote all the events in Vol I as three complete, separate drafts, and refined and refined, put every fact presented to the crucible. Even if it doesn't LOOK like it fits, it lays the first stone for the foundation for everything.

I did not conceive this idea, spit it out, sell it, and fly it on the wing. You are looking at a bit of work polished like a prism. If I sound full of it, well, OK, you may not know my work. The proof is in the pudding. I will stand behind that.

I was not writing for everyone - I realize that well. I set out to craft a different sort of monument, not instant popularity.

For Marg - she may do better to read Hell's Chasm and the Empire series I did with Raymond Feist, or my other quest-style trilogy, The Cycle of Fire, before she tackles Light and Shadow.

To try and tell Light and Shadow from a tight one person pov would have been to gut its major impacts and significance. The ending of Mistwraith will start to demonstrate why - and the series in general should bear this out, no question.

But you are right - it makes for a different flavor.

[Jim]

Thanks, Janny. I will fill The Boss in on what you said. Makes sense. I think she has read the Empire Trilogy, although I'm not sure if she remembers it very well. It's been a while.

I did note the similarities between Korendir & Arithon. I'm sorry to admit that I missed the interludes being like those in "Lord of Light". Obviously, it's time to re-read that again. In fact, when I'm done this book, I'm probably going to read it & "The Einstein Intersection" by Delaney. Both favorite books that I haven't revisted in far too long.

[Libby]

Stefan wrote: "I'm not sure if this would fall under style - maybe more structure - but one of the aspects of the book I am enjoying very much are the three story fragments that conclude every chapter. They give..."

I too am really enjoying the triple chapter format with the fragments. It's a large book and its nice to have this type of supporting structure. Nicely done.

[Stefan]

Janny wrote: "If you had not yet noticed a significant thing about the way this book is styled: THE ACTION NEVER LOOPS BACKWARD. Yes, there may be the momentary character flashback - but this series NEVER does the fantasy epic dance step, where you see what's going on, then skip back in time to forward what another character was doing."

That's amazing - I hadn't noticed that, but now I'm aware of it, it's something I will pay attention to during a re-read. It also explains some of the pacing --- I felt that the story sometimes sped up or skipped ahead, and at other times slowed down very noticeably. Including the dates with the chapter headings would definitely would be great, if that's ever an option in the future.

[Leslie Ann]

Janny,

Your comment about the action of the story never looping backward got me to thinking--is this a common device in epic fantasy? I have to admit I've just never noticed. I guess this particular device hasn't ever bothered me. I also thought about my own series and I don't think my story ever loops back on itself either. All the action is simultaneous or sequential.

[Jim]

I'm not a huge fan of dates heading novel chapters, probably because I can never remember them in real life. 'The other day' is usually when stuff happened for me - the past decade or two.

So long as the action keeps going forward, that's fine. Skipping around through time, even with dates confuses me. Well, we'll see what happens. I liked this book with the way it traveled through time. Very straightforward & easy to follow.

[Janny]

Jim wrote: "Thanks, Janny. I will fill The Boss in on what you said. Makes sense. I think she has read the Empire Trilogy, although I'm not sure if she remembers it very well. It's been a while.

I did note..."

I haven't had a reread of a Zelazny in entirely too long, also! What an original mind he had.

[Janny]

Libby wrote: "Stefan wrote: "I'm not sure if this would fall under style - maybe more structure - but one of the aspects of the book I am enjoying very much are the three story fragments that conclude every chap..."

Sure helps to keep the parallel action lined up, and further the little points that happen, meanwhile. Also lovely for foreshadowing, as you've seen.

[Janny]

Stefan wrote: "Janny wrote: "If you had not yet noticed a significant thing about the way this book is styled: THE ACTION NEVER LOOPS BACKWARD. Yes, there may be the momentary character flashback - but this serie..."

Some of the "slower" bits in this story were not due to the simul-timing (ah, she coined a word! grin) I wasn't handling lag time in such places, but fitting in something vital you will need to understand later...where the pacing or the action coming could NOT afford to be bogged down by "seeing" how something works, or knowing what it was...iyats, Mirthlvain, strands, Althain Tower, Ithamon and alot of other stuff...all that has edges and when the bits recur, the backdrop or the function has to work already. Your reader's understanding AND engagement has to be in place already. What denouements are shown now are woven into the storyline as best as can be...this sets the stage for the explosive stuff, later.

I have said to first time readers, there is NO "window dressing" in Vol. I. That everything will develop to stunning proportions - it's often gotten me that polite look...grin...then later, when they saw what I meant, they've gone back to re-read, and seen a whole other vista of meaning to events that seemed "slow" or leisurly at the first pass...see as you wish, the proof is in the pudding.

[Janny]

Leslie wrote: "Janny,

Your comment about the action of the story never looping backward got me to thinking--is this a common device in epic fantasy? I have to admit I've just never noticed. I guess this parti..."

Well, Leslie - actually, it is. Many writers do this...it's a tried and true fiction technique...and when blatant, something that makes ME scream with frustration...though it's effective, and often used well, it still rips me because it's (one of the things I call, personal opinion, here," a "cheap shot" technique...if you had to hook me by showing what's HAPPENED, then loop back and denoue how - I grind my teeth.

Because if the story was that good, why not tell it in order?

You surely have seen the Fiction Book written where it begins with the "old codger writing a memoire" and giving you some JUICY hint, then bam, they're a child in that reminiscence, and you see their whole life leading up to that "opener" - no wonder there, just a baited hook, quite in plain view - WITH the bummer bit, that you know the character survives to reminisce.

I put up with this - read on anyway, but that hasn't stopped me hating it...the enticement of the hindsight view, then the catch me up...it's travel in reverse.

Yet there are MANY books out like that - and winning plenty of accolades and reader admiration - it's an effective hook, albeit, and accepted by the community, I have to respect that. But for me, it goes in the drawer along with series books that just HAVE to have "cliff hanger endings" for fear a reader will not return without. Cheap shots I won't use. Period.

It should be noted here, that Ships/Warhost were published first as one volume in the American Hardback - this was always intended as ONE STORY, but the sheer size of the book meant the publisher opted to split in Britain, and in the paperback US version (and as the series stands, now, the split is permanent) STILL I set the midpoint split at a moment of respite for the reader. There is no dangling moment, no suspended action. It gives closure and a pause point where you know more is coming, but you are not DANGLING. I just hate that and avoid it at all costs.

For series books, there are some notable ones that DO step back, and literally, you do the jump like a pingpong ball, with the words as opener, "Six MONTHS earlier," just always jars me.

So I don't.

Doesn't mean it doesn't work for most - I'm fusspot finicky??? I want to know the story has enough tension NOW, and try to write with that immediacy. If it's not enough to hold you NOW, no cheap shots. Time to slice that scene apart and find a better angle with more compelling tension to it.

[Janny]

Jim wrote: "I'm not a huge fan of dates heading novel chapters, probably because I can never remember them in real life. 'The other day' is usually when stuff happened for me - the past decade or two.

So lon..."

Jim - I know exactly what you mean. It's not a necessary function. If the story works, it works.

Why I liked the date and timing at the top - you had a quick opening reference to know if you were on the SAME DAY, or if you were jumping forward by a month or a season. NO dates would go "backward" in this series...there is no backstepping from the immediate. Jumps forward do happen, though...it's a godsend for ME when referencing when this occurred, for later volumes, or getting down the timing of a pregnancy, or a phase of the moon, or, even, how old a character would be, in a later scene volumes later.

I have timelines and spread sheets, of course, but sometimes grabbing the desk copy of the book and flipping open to the past chapter is quicker.

And some readers are very fussy, this way, they want to have all the steps in plain view. It's an added feature that can be leaned on, or ignored.

Mistwraith doesn't really suffer for not having dates. It's Ships/Warhost where I wish they'd been implemented.

[John]

As I mentioned in another thread, I didn't like CotM as much as I wanted to, and I think a large part of my dissatisfaction comes from stylistic issues. Janny's beautiful prose notwithstanding--and it does reach great heights of beauty while at the same time being very functional--I was put off in the the first half or so of the book by prose that often felt too expository. Yes, it was an improvement over The Great Wizard Exposition taking time to fill us in or lengthy prologues or flashbacks to info dump all the background we need, but there was something about the way it *was* presented that sounded like a wrong note--perhaps even more so since the prose so often rose to such heights.

I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to articulate it as well as I'd like. And I should add that once the story really got going, this concern melted away like a defeated Mistwraith, but I still couldn't quite get past that early impression.

Still, between the way that this aspect seemed to me to improve as the novel went on and the things you've said about the trajectory of this series, I really am looking forward to picking up later volumes.

Also, Janny--and I suspect I'll be saying or at least thinking it as I read more threads--I'm very favorably impressed by the depth of craft and your ability to dissect it for us and articulate what it was you were doing.

[Janny]

John wrote: "As I mentioned in another thread, I didn't like CotM as much as I wanted to, and I think a large part of my dissatisfaction comes from stylistic issues. Janny's beautiful prose notwithstanding--and..."

John, you have pinpointed, exactly, my own dissatisfaction with how this book flows - a difficulty I tinkered 17 times to surmount: how to get this vast stage set in a way that held the engagement of the storyline.

I chose not to do it like Erikson, and just hurl everything at the reader at once, all juxtaposed, and let them swim into the hurly burly current until the found footing. But the drawback of the more careful sketch is that the major connections are not, even still, going to be apparent.

My editors worked, too - the suggestion to "just cut the scenes in Mirthlvain" was made - and had to be sidelined due to the "staging" being done for major action points, coming later, which will slowly develop over the course of the series as a whole. I had to weigh options and take a lot of risks - reader faith being one of them...my hope was that the ending would demonstrate things Are going somewhere brisk, and the sense of convergency would merit that trust.

The start curve for Mistwraith had one advantage: it weeds out the faint-hearted, and does away with the quick-skimmers. People who are looking for shallow actions of an escape-candy read are going to fall by the wayside. And that is fine. I like candy reads too, but this was not intended to become that. The ones who reach the midpoint plunge are settled in, prepared for an experience they aren't trying to rush or second guess, which makes the ending sequence have more impact.

The disadvantage - some readers DO drop off or decide nothing is happening that means anything much, and they miss the punchline.

This is the stage setter book, and I feel, it has inherent weaknesses in start up due to that....what I did NOT want (and did succeed in avoiding) is that series that just moves like crazy, and at next volume, bam, when the action slows down - we get dumped with a New Surprise, New Characters, More Sprawl - anything to jump start the action. I wanted to AVOID the repeat of past events, or repetition of plot points shown the same way, over and over...this means, some of the "breadth" that would be surprise-foisted as "sprawl" later - that breadth is in the opening half of Vol I and so, feels halfway out of stride, and not yet come into its momentum, yet.

I do know the proof is in the pudding. Now that all the volumes up to the ending of the third arc are in place and written, readers can see what develops and make the judgement call for themselves...you will encounter another curve at the start of Arc III - paid off in spades at that arc's finale...though many readers caught in the morass of Epic Bloat (other epics!) may tend to presume this is following the same curve, Stormed Fortress proves out every single scene.

I have to be patient, in that, until the LAST volume is completed, all of the scenes will not have reached their full height and depth of play - I'll have to wait and keep quietly working, in the face of the industry trend toward Epic Bloat, and make the work itself my own statement. Trust has to be earned.

Where I am grateful to you is that you kept going - found that convergency at the ending that delivered the story's solidity. On faith, if you can, take the assurance that those early denouements weren't empty.

It is one of the technical difficulties I had to master, and doubtless there may have been a better way - when the series reaches a certain scene in Vol 7, there are, literally, nine layers of depth hitting full pitch at once in the course of a very heated sequence of events. If I'd had to "pause" this scene for one SECOND of exposition, it would have collapsed.

When the reader gets there - all nine layers are so completely understood, they need not be mentioned at all - the cascade happens with total clarity, since the awareness of all the implications has been built up and laid down, in graphic action, through all the prior volumes. Some of that backdrop is laid into Mistwraith's early sequences.

I suppose the Great View in hindsight will prove me right or wrong...truthfully, if I'd written all these books BEFORE publishing book I, they'd never have gotten out...one has to split the risks, in a greatly long work. Take the chance of some things being right and some, wrong.

It's been a full time job all the way through. I can hope, as you move into the series subsequent volumes, the effort shines through.

The series was not written for everyone, but as more readers see the whole unfoldment, word will get out that Vol I wasn't useless window dressing in the least.

[Leslie Ann]

I am 2/3 of the way through COTM, and I am now catching a glimpse of the many things yet to come, and I am so excited. My mind is simply a'swirl with speculations and questions, questions, questions!! I know this will be a mutlti-year committment, but I'm all in, totally.

I see clearly why this series is not for everyone. I can also see why many readers would give up and put it aside unfinished, but that would be a SERIOUS mistake. Kudos to you, John, for sticking with it. I sense you'll be very happy you did.

[Janny]

Leslie wrote: "I am 2/3 of the way through COTM, and I am now catching a glimpse of the many things yet to come, and I am so excited. My mind is simply a'swirl with speculations and questions, questions, question..."

Leslie - questions? What are they? Care to share?

On an Aside comment - if anyone saw that crazy post in that Other Forum...that said "Wurtz's thousands and thousands of characters" - if you're thinking of going on, the facts, just the facts:

By Volume 8, you have a cast of 50 characters, some being Dead Ancestors, many being bit parts (wives/offspring) and some, who've passed on, and are references.

If you add in "absent mythological gods" more Dead Ancestors, horses (3) and servants who appear only once, and kick in Every Possible Sidekick, including dragons...perhaps you may come up well shy of 100.

Sigh. How I hate when Certain Major Authors who've disappointed readers tar the whole field with the same brush...there are quite a number of writers who've completed not just one, but several series, who publish on a regular basis, and who Deliver the Finish...and though some do real fat stuff that dissipates, many on many do not. It's always been a curiosity to me why Nay Say threads keep resurging and nobody shouts them down with the overwhelming number of great series, Finished, or regularly produced.

And with regard to some authors taking awhile - look at the dates it took Tolkein to produce The Hobbit and Lord of the Rings...and the repeated, repeated, repeated letters (published in his book of letters) to his publisher Allen Unwin, saying how little progress he had been making with his major work....imagine being his contemporary and waiting (30?) years...

Sometimes it's not easy, waiting, and sometimes it's not easy for the creator, either. What do you people think?

Are you afraid to plunge into a long work due to the inordinate amount of chit-chat damning big series in progress? I'm just curious...

Doesn't affect me, one way or the other, because I have a commitment to hold. But I wondered what your views may be.

[Libby]

For those of use moving on in the series it might be fun to start another tread for the next book - anyone?

[Leslie Ann]

The biggest questions in my mind right now:

1.What is the exact origin and nature of Desh Thiere?

2.Where did the Fellowship of Seven come from and are
they human? Why are they immortal?

3.Why are the Koriani opposed to the Fellowship?

4.Why was there a rebellion against the high kings?

5.Will Arithon and Elaira eventually become lovers? I
REALLY hope that happens!! Poor Arithon needs some
lovin' in his so far unrelentingly grim life!

6.Will the Paravians come back?

There are other questions, but they mostly relate to more minor things.

Janny, what is that Other Forum of which you speak?

I've never been afraid to plunge into a long work. One of my all-time fave series is Kate Elliot's Crown of Stars which took years and years for her to finish. I waited and was amply rewarded. It's true it can be hard to wait, and also hard when there's no payoff, but I don't let the risk scare me off if I believe a series is worth the effort.

BTW, what is the title of the next book after Mistwraith?

[John]

It's true, as you say, that a style like Erikson's demands an even more sink-or-swim mentality from a reader. I know that Gardens of the Moon was hard to get into at first... but ultimately I appreciated it (R. Scott Bakker's The Darkness That Comes Before would be another example). I prefer it, but then, as an old lit major and reader of philosophy, I'm pretty comfortable with difficulty.

For a fantasy writer especially, exposition has to be the one of the greatest challenges. Literary fiction, romance, detective novels... they all have it easy in the sense that they're working with what is basically a known world. Sure, they may need to reveal things to us about the way that particular things in particular places outside the general reader's experience work, and they have the usual work of laying out what's going on, but they don't have nearly so much work to do as a fantasy writer does.

As for your later question, I've had some trepidation about starting a big, unfinished series, realizing that the writer may never finish or because of the frustration of having to wait so long between volumes, but for the most part I haven't let that stop me. I was actually tricked into The Prince of Nothing series because I thought it was finished when I started--and technically, of course, it is, but that's really the first arc in a longer saga. Once I realized my mistake there, I just stopped worrying about it. If it's good enough that I have to see it through, then I won't mind re-reading novels to refresh my memory, if it comes to that.

[Janny]

Leslie wrote: "The biggest questions in my mind right now:

1.What is the exact origin and nature of Desh Thiere?

2.Where did the Fellowship of Seven come from and are
they human? Why are they immortal?

3.W..."

The next book in the series is The Ships of Merior. If you get the paperback, it should be noted that Warhost of Vastmark completes Arc II of the Wars of Light and Shadows, and should be considered the same story, in two parts.

If you happen to have the US hardback ONLY - it contains both titles (part I and Part II). Apologies for the confusion. I wrote the entire book, Britain split it, the US published it as written, then decided to break it in two for the paperback, rather than have the spine break in two, while reading. Note: there IS a split point, so the break is not awkward - but Warhost takes up immediately, and carries the true punch of the finale.

The topic in question that had the vent on epic works, look to the end of the thread: http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/1...

On your other questions: I am smiling big, because they will all be answered. If you want an indepth leg up on Question 2 that will shock your socks off, find the anthology Under Cover of Darkness and look up a short story I did on the subject, titled The Sundering Star. It will not spoil the epic story itself, but it WILL give you some startling heads up into the backhistory that will shift your perceptions of what is on the pages coming.

Question 4: a bit of the in-depth view can be found in two other anthologies: Masters of Fantasy, look up a story called Child of Prophecy. And The Solaris Book of New Fantasy, look for Reins of Destiny. These will unveil events surrounding the rebellion, open awareness of the true push and pull of the clan/townborn situation, and still not spoil events in the main story. Only shed more light. The main story will evolve into answering these questions, but there is no overlap in material - the satellite stories took areas where readers often made sweeping (simplistic to the point of taking the juice out) assumptions that the story hadn't gotten to yet - and lifted them out for a full unfoldment. Each story stands alone. All take place before the bigger series. Each one is kind of an "ah hah!" moment in history.

[Janny]

John wrote: "It's true, as you say, that a style like Erikson's demands an even more sink-or-swim mentality from a reader. I know that Gardens of the Moon was hard to get into at first... but ultim..."

John - you are not the average bear of a reader, and part of why Erikson's gamble is paying off (now) is he has enough readers in chorus to tell the floundering first timer, Keep Reading, it will all come clear. I hope one day to be blessed with that, too!

Ultimately, I am not doing the same sort of thing - and I had to take my chances that the call I made, beginning was the right one. If you choose to continue, I can hope you will be resoundingly astonished - I've had notes from readers (who read Stormed Fortress) apologizing for the presumptions they'd made (oh, around Fugitive Prince or Peril's Gate) where they had thought I'd "lost sight" of the story - and were shocked to see, nothing of the kind. But it's asking a lot, expecting them to "wait" two years between books - and remember in that time...much MUCH easier, now that all those books are written, to have a new reader able to take them one after the next at their own reading pace.

The finale of Arc III (Stormed Fortress) wraps up a LOT of threads, and completely shifts the ground. So the opening of Arc IV is a whole other ball game, in a way. The major story continues, but there's that sense of a completion, ongoing. So I think, by that volume, I'd have established a trust. The last 3 books to finish the series entire are most all denouement, once Arc IV sets up.

I have tried, too, with each book - to shed light on each of the former events but from a different perspective - you always see MORE and deeper - so really, it should not be necessary to "re-read" as each volume is self-contained. The reader gets the touchstones needed to move on - until Traitor's Knot, where the denoument moved too fast, and for that and its sequel, there is a timeline with dates provided for quick ref. Each book also has a glossary, which is updated to reflect the events at the finish of the last volume.

That was the best I can do.

The hardest thing for any writer of a large work - is having to hear the screams and the frustrated commentary of readers who can't see the unfinished bits, yet. Often their annoyances reflect their rage at being left hanging, and it doesn't help that some authors (misfortunately) died before completing their work.

When the series is finished, and the author, happily survives - then the picture would be completely different. Then the work stands or falls on its merits. There is no wait frustration or (pointless) venting over an unfinished work - only reaction to the story itself.

The writer has to keep going, No Matter What.
The scary bit is, if the work DOES merit, but readers drop off due to assumptions made over OTHER works that are in progress and deemed unsatisfactory - the sad bit is, the drop in numbers CAN affect how much effort goes into the work - not from the author's perspective (if they have character) but in, how much the work is supported in the greater market place.

I don't blame readers for their frustrations - I do get itched when I see ALL writers of long works damned for assumption that "all epic works" "lose it" or, all authors are gonna kick the bucket before finishing.

There are things that can be done to astonishing depth, in a long work, that are just Not Possible in a shorter format. Both forms have their merits. True, some books should be SHORT that are writ long, and vice versa....

At least I put and Ending on each volume along the way, so the pause point isn't a cliff hanger.

[Janny]

Libby wrote: "For those of use moving on in the series it might be fun to start another tread for the next book - anyone?"

Libby - if you do, at any time, I'd be thrilled to keep my eye on it.

[Libby]

Thanks - I've got a few other books to finish right now but once I start The Ships of Merior I'll post a thread for anyone else interested. It'll be fun to continue the discussion.

[Chris]

Janny,

Reading your post to Leslie brought up a question. Are there any plans/hopes to compile your short stories (especially the Light & Shadows ones) into a collection?

[Janny]

Chris wrote: "Janny,

Reading your post to Leslie brought up a question. Are there any plans/hopes to compile your short stories (especially the Light & Shadows ones) into a collection? "

I have a collection of short stories - hardback and paperback, here and in the UK/Australia/NZ - it's titled That Way Lies Camelot, there could be used copies about.

It did not have Athera stories in it, though. They were all unrelated - and a combination of fantasy and SF.

For another one, incorporating the Athera stuff - there is not a contract at present - but if the opportunity arises, I do have more than an earnestly hopeful dream. I've got a lot of Atheran material either finished, or worked into partial form - everything from stories, a novella, a completed ballad that appeared in part, in Fugitive Prince, and a whole lot of artwork in black and white. One day I would like to see this pulled into one volume.

I've also got eleven other shorts, that are not related to Athera, that were published in various anthologies that could also add up to another collection. If the existing Athera stories were added in, that's enough to make a volume, if I finish off the novella that details Verrain (one scene or two left to go.)

As an author, one's plans depend on the numbers generated by the material that's out now - let's see what the readers do with this North American relaunch. The fresh opportunity does offer a live window wherein anything is possible to shape the future of series related work...so I'd say to you readers, if you liked this book and want more - (grin) go forth and multiply through word of mouth, and I'll do my utmost to fulfill that wish. The idea of collateral material's been dear to my heart too. I've been working in bits toward making it concrete for quite awhile, now.

[Janny]

Libby wrote: "Thanks - I've got a few other books to finish right now but once I start The Ships of Merior I'll post a thread for anyone else interested. It'll be fun to continue the discussion."

Libby - your book plate went out this morning.

[Chris]

Sounds great, Janny. I'd love to see collections like that. It does seem that the buzz on GoodReads is pretty good so far, so hopefully that will expand beyond the site as well. It should help that another group is doing one of your books soon too.

And I'll certainly pass the recommendation out to fantasy fans that I know. Every little bit helps...

[Janny]

Hi Chris - thank you, yes! I saw your addition to the Epic Fantasy vote, this morning, and I am extremely grateful.

And yes, I am thrilled about the other discussion - that one was totally spontaneous, and I am looking forward to it, tremendously.

For anyone interested: the small but very active and delightful group, Beyond Reality, has voted in my standalone fantasy, To Ride Hell's Chasm for their October discussion. This is a one off book, quite self-contained, that takes place in a tiny kingdom (think Switzerland) whose princess has disappeared the night of her betrothal. Two captains of the guard from radically different backgrounds are placed under King's orders to find her - it begins as a mystery, runs into a court intrigue, and ends as hard action, much like a Cameron film (think a chase scene as relentless as Terminator). It seems to have found favor with the Empire reviewers on its prior release in Great Britain. If anyone's curious, the website (http://www.paravia.com/JannyWurts) has a text excerpt of Chapter 1, and, under audio/podcasts, a recorded teaser of chapters 1 through 3 in Mp3 for free download. Those links can be passed on to anyone - I encourage that, if you think anyone may be interested. The paperback release for this book in North America is right now.

You all have been such a wonderful group, feel free, if you'd like to join in.

[Chris]

Janny wrote: "Hi Chris - thank you, yes! I saw your addition to the Epic Fantasy vote, this morning, and I am extremely grateful."


You're welcome. But I'd like to mention that Libby put you on there first. I simply followed her link from my update feed.....

[Janny]

Chris wrote: "Janny wrote: "Hi Chris - thank you, yes! I saw your addition to the Epic Fantasy vote, this morning, and I am extremely grateful."


You're welcome. But I'd like to mention that Libby put you on th..."

Definitely I owe Libby a thank you, too, then.

[Binky]

Janny wrote: "Libby wrote: "For those of use moving on in the series it might be fun to start another tread for the next book - anyone?"

Libby - if you do, at any time, I'd be thrilled to keep my eye on it."

Yes - I've been enjoying the COTM discussions. I am only one book ahead so I would love more thoughts on The Ships of Merior as readers experience it.
Knight1

[Janny]

Knight1 wrote: "Janny wrote: "Libby wrote: "For those of use moving on in the series it might be fun to start another tread for the next book - anyone?"

Libby - if you do, at any time, I'd be thrilled to keep my ..."

One book ahead, as in, you're on to Warhost?

I hope, anyway, that Ships gave you some well earned bouts of laughter.

[Bill]

Janny wrote: "...The start curve for Mistwraith had one advantage: it weeds out the faint-hearted, and does away with the quick-skimmers. ..."

This reminds me of 2 recently read books, The Name of The Rose and At Swim Two Boys. In the 1st one has to muddle thru 100 pages of obfuscation to get to the meat (sort of like dressing a deer) and it has been said Eco did this on purpose to weed out those not informed/smart enough to appreciate his book (I do not think this Janny's intent). I almost didn't read it—the arrogance of the guy! The other by Jamie O'Neill is one of the most remarkable books I have read. The 1st 20 pages are written in a lower class, drunken, Irish dialect which many find impossible. But if you read it aloud or in your head you find yourself speaking with a lower class, drunken, Irish accent. Ultimately it is poesy at its most glorious (I love this book). But is has stopped a lot of people from continuing.

I generally say the more I enjoy a book, the slower I read. It never occurred to me that 'style' could be purposely designed to force one to read slowly and for a good reason. I started Ships last night and found my self re-reading sentences and paragraphs for meaning and even thought a comma here or there would have made this easier, but then I would have missed…

I feel sorry for those who do give up because they trip over too many sentences. It is fascinating reading about what you meant to accomplish and did do. The evocativeness of your prose is amazing. My mind is on Ships now and I don't think this really a spoiler, but a scene at the beginning of Ships is a good example. In the mountain pub, on an icy night when Dakar meets up with Arithon and the next day is hungover, riding in a cart—Now I haven't been drunk in over 30 years, but I felt that piercing headache behind my eyes, nausea and muzziness Dakar suffered, started thinking about why Dakar drank so much and being glad I didn't drink anymore!

Another thing happened. I don't know why I didn't notice this before in Mistwraith. During the 1st 10 pages or so of Ships it suddenly occurred to me that when the land was covered by Shadow there was generally peace. But, when the land was lit up again by the Sun it seems there is generally going to be war. It seems so obvious. Did you do this to me, Janny, or was I just being dense?

I don't know how you did these and don't really care, but am delighted you did. I lack the writers genes, but find reading as important to living as eating every day. And, you do challenge my vocabulary. I find myself looking up a lot of words. Many, I instinctively understand, but need to have more precision or nuance. I'm glad I recently subscripted to the OED online site as I'm fascinated by words.

I am a bit worried by Ships, wondering if you're going to load me down with sailor's jargon. I've read too many books overloaded with such, it gets annoying and I can't remember the difference between port and starboard :-) I worried a bit about this, but decided, finally, to just see how Janny does it, if Ships is actually about ships.

[Janny]

Kernos wrote: "Janny wrote: "...The start curve for Mistwraith had one advantage: it weeds out the faint-hearted, and does away with the quick-skimmers. ..."

This reminds me of 2 recently read books, [book:The N..."

My statement about the 'weeding out' - grin - wry consolation to myself. I had never EVER set out to be uppity to anyone - the sting hits any author when a reader misses; often it's no fault of the work at all, just different head space.

You bring up a fascinating point regarding Umberto Eco - mark this as a RUMOR, or maybe even a 'household myth' like the story about the lady who dried her poodle to an explosive death in a microwave...I had HEARD buzz once (that could be quite untrue) that Eco made a bet he could get Americans to fall for anything pretentious, that they were too stupid to know the difference...! And to prove his point, he wrote Name of the Rose in Lofty style, with the promise that, since it was opaque, people without intelligence would put it on the best seller list; voila....may be wildly untrue, but there's just enough pepper and salt there to raise the specter...grin.

Not my intent, ever, at any time; I gained my knowledge of language from READING many many books, it's purely instinctive at this point...and I trust the meticulous depth of knowledge brought to the table by my copy-editors - whose names are well known in the industry, both the one once employed at Bantam, and the other, a husband/wife pair who were NOT with Mistwraith, but have done all the rest of the series in continuous care.

Their note in private to me about my style is all I need...anyone else can feel as they do - we all have different tastes to make this world a vibrant place. I'd not change the freedom of individual preference for anything.

On commas; yeah. I had more in the original copy. 'modernized' style is now calling for less of them; though in this case, I feel, the prose style would be easier with the slightly older preference, for comma use.

Words all have a PRECISE meaning; and the differences are nuanced. For this work, I went for the nuanced choice, not the dumbed down one. This was no way a choice to use 'high style' - it was the option to refine the meaning to a fine edge. There is no such thing as one word meaning exactly what another does; each has shades of association, a different root and history. That counts.

It is woe to the skimmers, though, who just want to rush to the point without taking in the atmospheric ambiance. Like chugging a fine wine, the experience is dimmed considerably. This book was designed to create a state of immersion that will INTENSIFY with each volume, and each climactic event...just to know what happens is not the only purpose.

Not everyone is prepared for this. Or even, looking for the engrossing kind of ride that will ask deep questions. And that's OK. The books are patient. They don't yell when thrown across the room - grin. Only the author winces. ;)

On a nautical VERNACULAR - is it loading? I am a dyed in the wool SAILOR who has crewed vessels offshore, modern and period rig. I will say: there is NOTHING worse than a writer trying to write a shipboard scene who has NEVER been there/done that. It's an immediate show stopper. Fact: the terminology is precise because the forces of wind and water are SO much larger than wood and canvas, and can become so dangerously overpowering - the mechanical advantage is so little, when things go wrongway up - there is no TIME to word an order differently. Using dumbed down language would be absurd.

Here's your reassurance: not every scene, or even, large areas of the book, will happen aboard; so you won't be saddled often; your second guarantee: You've got ME. I can be contacted/questioned/e mailed, messaged, or posted here - anytime. If it's a word question or a nautical term, you have a living dictionary.

The language has been meticulously taken from REAL experience or period research - so you WILL come away with the flavor of true experience.

Here's the first round:

Port is four letters, so is LEFT. Portside is leftside of a vessel - why? PORT side was the side tied up to the dock, or, where one brought the tender to the side of the parent ship...because on the side tied to the WHARF, there was no obstruction. Before tillers were invented, vessels had a "steering oar" - a big clunky thing slung off the RIGHT side of the ship - not centered. It could not be crushed or pinched, or smashed into - therefore STEERBOARD side was the right side of the ship. Shortened to STARBOARD.

To a greenhorn tying up or coming in to dock, first time, he might not know right HAND from LEFT, nor care less. But steerboard side and portside were obvious to the ignorant.

That help?

[Alissa]

Janny, thank you for this thread. As I've noticed in my experience, too, your style is never "transparent", that is, inherently and element that asks for a reaction. Never forced, always offering. I'm a fan of your lyrical style, and I find myself reading with easy glee for both the story and the way you tell it. Such strong reaction I cannot recall in recent memory, and I understand that if my reading chime with the rhythm of your books, it is a very personal reaction. I thank you very much for that. I'm always amazed at how compelling, believable and vivid are the images you evoke with your descriptions! I've recently finished Mistwraith, and reread the glossary a couple of times for the beauty of it, the complexity of Athera and Paravian lore calls for more. I'm not stranger to your powerful world-building, the eleven kingdoms of The Master of White Storm and the magic system of To Ride Hell’s Chasm, just to name some elements I loved in the books I read before, are truly powerful and add a very structured background to the tale. I'm very happy to see I've got more books to explore :)
With some amusement I read Umberto Eco is mentioned in this thread. Unfortunately, I count myself a huge fan of his book The Name of the Rose, but I don't think he intertwined the story with a cartload of philosophy and historical background just to show off...okay, I admit when I read it, in the era before Wikipedia, it was kind of strenuous at times. I'm happy to hear you liked the book too, Janny!
The depth of your imagination is astonishing Janny, and I've learnt, all details matter. It's a kind of game now, I want to hunt for clues, to better savor all the surprises. I'm just on the second book of the series but I'm looking forward to share this voyage.