Historical Fictionistas discussion
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Aspiring HF Author in need of advice!
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Becky wrote: "Marketing discussions (including branding - so your point #2) are not permitted in this group. For info on that, I would suggest joining the Goodreads Authors Feedback group. https://www.goodreads...."Thank you, and I'm sorry I didn't realize that!
Elizabeth wrote: "Becky wrote: "Marketing discussions (including branding - so your point #2) are not permitted in this group. For info on that, I would suggest joining the Goodreads Authors Feedback group. https://..."I would not worry about branding yourself at this time. What you need to do is learn how to write a novel. Few, if any, of us are born knowing how to do that. Look around for writing classes or see if there is a writer's group in your area that you can join.
The focus should really be on writing. I see a lot of "writers" out there who have yet to publish anything but have blogs and websites and I wonder who the heck is reading them or following them? Maybe once you have a completed first draft of your novel, think about setting up a website. Right now, it will just take valuable time away from writing.
Elizabeth, with the moderators' approval, I will send you a message through the Goodreads' message system sometime this weekend and give you some ideas. So, look for the message. You can check my Bio to see that I am legit. I'm new to HF too, but Becky knows me through a giveaway program she helped me with.I can see you have great ambition. Writing is very hard work and starting in the right direction helps minimize the chaos. There are some things you should try to avoid and others you should concentrate on.
Becky/Eileen, would it be okay to give her some ideas?
Alden S. Bradstock, III
Mod
Hi Elizabeth. Here's a few hints that may help regarding the writing process:* Try and write a bit every day - or at least every few days. If you leave it for weeks, you tend to lose the flow of it all.
* Do your research! And by that, I mean research every tiny thing - the way people spoke [any regional words? Different parts of France have different ways of saying the same thing], what they ate, what they wore, their daily habits, attitudes, even the plants, animal and insects in the ares, if relevant. There's nothing worse than finding something obviously wrong - puts you off the whole book!
* And remember that this is just a first draft! So just get the story down. Later, you'll be able to go back to the beginning and improve each sections. You'll find, because you haven't read this part of your work for a while, that all sorts of problems will show up [clunky sentences, typos, sections that aren't clear and so on].
* And most importantly, when you feel you've made it the best you can, don't be in a rush to send it off to a publisher. Put it away for at least a month, then read it to yourself out loud. Again, you'll find all sorts of things you missed before, because hearing your words is different to reading them.
Hope that helps, Elizabeth, and happy writing!
Everything Dominique said is correct. A couple of things I would add: the research, as painstaking, difficult, and time consuming as it is, is the easy part. It is the writing that is the tough part and will take way more time to get right.
And keep writing everyday. I find that when I take a day off, or longer, I become quite grumpy. For real writers, as challenging as it can be to write, not writing is worse.
I agree with Domniique and Eileen. I sent some other ideas to you by Goodreads messaging. Let me know if you do not receive the msg.The msg starts with: "Good morning. Dominique [and Eileen] gave you some very good pointers. Here are a few more:..."
Good luck and above all else - enjoy confronting the many challenges you will face.
Hello Elizabeth,I do not write historical fiction, however, it is one of my FAVORITE genres to read. So, if you do not mind, I would like to give my own answer to your last question, about what makes it enjoyable to read.
I find that the more historical facts inserted, the more interesting the novel seems to me. It's like a history lesson in disguise, I guess :) Even a random fact, that may not seem important to the story line, makes me happy, because it puts me more in the time period. Milk that time period!! We're reading the books in this genre because we all secretly long to live in a different era (or at least I do!! :D haha)!!! Okay, that's not the ONLY reason, but it's a darn good reason!
A good heroine and/or hero. Now, that's the case for ANY genre. They do not have to be flawless, or absolutely loved, or anything like that. I must say, I fell in love with Holden Caulfield in
, and he is anything but flawless (yes, different genre, but I am just making a point about main characters). If there is even one thing about the main character that I can either relate to, appreciate, or admire, or if he/she goes through a tough struggle...anything that can make me like him/her despite any bad parts, that is enough for me. Or, sometimes the hero/heroine is just really lovable and DOESN'T have any flaws. Either way, make them pop. Make me remember them long after I close the book after I finish it.One last thing that I can think of is lingo. I LOVE reading historical fiction and reading the words that have gone out of fashion in our language. Terms for different everyday items, ways of speech, etc. It is one of the most fun things about historical fiction!
Oh, I'm sorry, ONE LAST THING!! Some authors talk more about clothing than others, so it is not always a big thing. But I LOVE when the clothing is described in historical fiction, as well as the hairstyles. Especially when the beautiful dresses women wore are described in detail. It makes me envision the characters so much better in my head, and I find myself pining for a time machine :)
Overall, make us want that time machine!!
Good luck and God bless!! I hope that I could help, even a little bit!!
Natalie
Thank you, everyone! Reading all of these tips makes me even more excited to write, and Dominique and Natalie, you both have given me new ideas to incorporate in the story, so thank you!
Alden - I will respond to your message soon!
Super. I'm sure everyone will do what they can to help you. Good luck!
Natalie wrote: "Of course :) Good luck!!"Yes, best of luck with your book.
Eileen wrote: "Natalie wrote: "Of course :) Good luck!!"Yes, best of luck with your book."
Thank you :)
Natalie,I really like your comments on what you like in historical fiction. I try to keep those points front and center when I'm writing my own historical fiction (and my current contemporary satirical novel). Getting specificity right is key to vibrant writing: the telling detail without burying the reader under a barrage of description. Paul A. Myers
I'd like to add to the advice with something simple but often overlooked. Historical fiction needs the same basic building blocks as any other kind of fiction. Character, plot and style or writers voice. Find your voice. You do that by writing - lots of writing without self editing as you go. Finally don't get bogged down in the history. It's important to involve your readers by creating characters that are real and have warmth and humanity. You build your historical facts on that human structure.Good luck.
PS If you intend to self-publish get an editor you trust - essential.
Elizabeth wrote: "I am currently writing my first HF (set in France during WW2), and I need some inspiration/advice!1) Any tips for the writing process?
2) What makes HF good to read?!
Or anything else that you f..."
Hi.
I don't write historical fiction often, but I read it a lot. I think one of my favorite parts about reading historical fiction is when something happens, and you think, 'no, that's not possible... but it seems so real' - or when someone is somehow related to something that happened in real life, and you think, 'I wish this were real!'
Since I'm an author, here is my advice on how to actually write it:
Start writing. Write write write until you don't have anything left. It doesn't need to be finished (or good, for that matter), but you should have an idea of what is happening. From there, you can probably write out a plot, then continue writing (if you weren't done), then edit and rewrite and edit and rewrite. Until you think it's perfect. Then give it to someone else to read and ask them to edit it... and they'll edit and you'll rewrite... and it goes on and on until everyone you know who's read it thinks it's perfect. Then go about publishing it.
:D
I started writing historical fiction when I was 10 years old, and if there's any advice I can think of, it's - don't be too quick. I had this rather blithe assumption when I was a teenager that it would be so cool (and completely doable!) to have my work-in-progress published by the time I was seventeen, because then my heroine and I would be the same age, and it would be a very marketable selling point and of course Oprah would be interested, etc. Seventeen came and went, and that book still wasn't published, because it wasn't good enough to see print. But that's ok. Someone once told me that you have to put in at least 10,000 hours before you can consider yourself good at something - anything, whether it's horseback riding or being a doctor or being a writer. Maybe 10,000 hours is a glib number, but the bottom line is, it takes time to get good. Give yourself time to screw up, write some truly awful things, shove them under the bed with a shudder, and then shrug and turn the page and write something new. Don't rush your work out there before it's ready to be seen.
And the nice side of that is that you'll discover you're writing for pleasure, not for advancement. I started writing and I thought "It will be so awesome when this is published!" But when I got to the point when I was just writing because the story needed to be written - giving up 10 hours of a lovely Saturday afternoon because I could pound out some more words, not because I was thinking "10 hours closer to publication!" And that's when my prose got better.
You guys have the best advice, I'm already researching things I haven't thought of, and it's improved my story.Thank you thank you!
I find it that sometimes if I just write, even if it has nothing to do with my story (such as what I did today, etc), then that's great practice too. It helps me love the process more and more.
I'm late to the party, but I think the most important way to improve your writing skills is to READ. A ton. As much as you can. Obviously you'll want to read a lot of historical fiction if that's what you intend to write, but read other kinds of fiction, too, and all kinds of nonfiction as well. Anything that has a narrative arc in it (biography, memoir, some poetry) is great to read and study.All stories that the human mind finds compelling contain the following elements: A character who wants something, but something stands in his/her way, and something else is at stake if he doesn't get what he wants. So he struggles against that antagonistic force to get what he wants, and either he succeeds or he fails. Every single story contains that core. Read books with an eye to picking out that core, and then analyze what the author did to make the same old story that's been told millions of times before feel fresh and intriguing.
Oh yes, read, read, read, the best and the worst. Always ask yourself - as you read - how does the author get this emotional/frightening/want to read on effect?And structure is so important. Read good thrillers and mysteries to see how time and deadlines are used to structure a story for tension.
Read the classics to see how a story should be structured to keep a reader reading.
Write what you love first and always remember that reading is a third hand experience so that what you write must be clear and hard hitting.
P.d.r. wrote: "Oh yes, read, read, read, the best and the worst. Always ask yourself - as you read - how does the author get this emotional/frightening/want to read on effect?And structure is so important. Read..."
P.d.r is correct - read the best and the worst. I have learned almost as much from really bad writing (what not to do) as I have from good writing. Maybe more, since you cannot plagiarize from a good writer, only get some inspiration, but you can definitely learn about what to take out from a truly bad writer. The bad ones can be most often found in the really cheap downloads from Amazon, although there are also good ones in there as well.
Yes. Read EVERYTHING that grabs your interest, even a little bit. You will learn something valuable from it whether it's good or bad!
There are lots of great writing books—and ten times as many that aren't worth the purchase price. Two I recommend, because they really helped me "get" what the others were saying, are The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller (ignore the 22 steps—the value is in what Truby has to say about structure) and Wired for Story: The Writer's Guide to Using Brain Science to Hook Readers from the Very First Sentence (explains better than everything else not just what readers expect but why).Yes, read. Yes, practice. Revise, revise, revise. Connect with other writers—in person as well as online, if you can. But do read a few writing books as well, starting with these two. You can read for thirty years and still not know why some stories grab you and others don't.
L.M. wrote: "I'm late to the party, but I think the most important way to improve your writing skills is to READ. A ton. As much as you can. Obviously you'll want to read a lot of historical fiction if that'..."Never late to the party! :) Yes, I have found that reading more and more truly helps me.
I also find it that having others read some of my writing, although it's intimidating, that helps as well. I had my good friend/running buddy (we are training for a marathon together AND writing our first books---it's a lovely friendship) and she had such great things to say that I didn't even consider. She's only read a chapter, but it still helped.
Thanks for the writing books recommendations C.P.--I will be checking those out!
Elizabeth wrote: "L.M. wrote: "I'm late to the party, but I think the most important way to improve your writing skills is to READ. A ton. As much as you can. Obviously you'll want to read a lot of historical fic..."It is nerve wracking, the first time you have someone else read what you have written. But if you want to get books sold, you need to have other people look it over. We all of us need editors - there are typos, oblique references that a reader doesn't get, repetitious phrasing habits, etc. that need to be caught.
Another book on writing I've found helpful are The First Five Pages: A Writer's Guide To Staying Out of the Rejection Pile by Noah Lukeman. Pretty basic, but he makes some good points.
On writing historical fiction, Persia Woolley's How to Write and Sell Historical Fiction is good, although a little dated re: the current state of the publishing business. Myfanwy Cook's Historical Fiction Writing: A Practical Guide And Tool Kit is more up to date with the publishing business and has good exercises in it.
I love all these recommendations for books on craft! I haven't read the ones listed here, but I'll check them out, especially those C.P. recommended. They look very interesting, and I'm always fascinated by the psychology of story.One of my favorite craft books is Spunk & Bite: A Writer's Guide to Punchier, More Engaging Language & Style. It's really more about style than story structure, but I really enjoyed it and found it very useful in developing my own style (more so for my literary fiction than my historical fiction, but some "style stuff" does creep into my historical fiction, too.)
My two penn'orth: I agree research is important, but don't get so bogged down in it that you never get around to writing the book! There will always be something more you can research, but often it's only when you actually start writing that you can see where you have gaps and need to do more. It might be also that your story takes off in a direction you didn't expect and hadn't researched. I think once you've researched the basics - such as whether your plot is feasible for the time and place you've set it, and the chronology of events - writing and research can go along side by side. I agree with those who've said the important thing is to get the story down on paper (or on the screen). It doesn't matter how rough and ready the first draft is, just get it down.
Everyone works differently and the only way you can discover what sort of writer you are is to write. Some plan meticulously before they start; some don't know what the end of the story will be when they begin. You need to find out what works for you.
Finding a critique group led by a skilled writing teacher would be very helpful. I would shy away from critique groups made up of only other writers because their advice tends to be very subjective and not necassarily rooted in good craft knowledge or skills. If you are close to a college or university you should be able to find critique classes that are reasonably priced.
Victoria wrote: "My two penn'orth: I agree research is important, but don't get so bogged down in it that you never get around to writing the book! There will always be something more you can research, but often it..."Exactly, Victoria. Tap or type anything, just to get started. Rather than stare at a blank sheet of paper, I used to type: Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of the party. (The old touch-typing practice sentence.)
Now, I have so much work in progress, I don't need to do that.
I actually just wrote a post on this topic for the (most excellent!) writing site Writer Unboxed--readers seemed to find it helpful so I'll pass it along. As always, take what works, leave what doesn't-and good luck!http://writerunboxed.com/2014/01/19/1...
Just had to come back to this thread to give an update on some of the recommended books. After reading the recommendations, I bought both The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller and Wired for Story: The Writer's Guide to Using Brain Science to Hook Readers from the Very First Sentence for my Kindle. Started reading Anatomy right away...wow, it's fantastic! I've always liked writing historical fiction with an outline before, but this book has taken my understanding of how to outline for maximum efficiency to a whole new level. Good timing, too...I got to use all its techniques for the outline for a new book I'm working on.
Wired for Story is also proving to be fascinating reading.
They're both awesome!
So glad you like them, L.M., and find them useful. I was bowled over, too, first time I read them.
Historical Fictionistas
Books mentioned in this topic
The Anatomy of Story: 22 Steps to Becoming a Master Storyteller (other topics)Wired for Story: The Writer's Guide to Using Brain Science to Hook Readers from the Very First Sentence (other topics)
Spunk & Bite: A Writer's Guide to Punchier, More Engaging Language & Style (other topics)
The First Five Pages: A Writer's Guide To Staying Out of the Rejection Pile (other topics)
How to Write and Sell Historical Fiction (other topics)
More...
1) Any tips for the writing process?
2) What makes HF good to read?!
Or anything else that you found helpful for yourself as a writer, please share with me!
Thank you, I look forward to your responses!
EDITED: Removed marketing related question.