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Roach, Mary - Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers - Start Date February 2, 2014 [February 2014 Adult Anything Goes BOM]
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Renee wrote: "I like the idea of fertilizing a shrub, but I'm not much of a green thumb in life, so I hope I don't kill the poor plant."LMBO! Oh, dear. I hadn't thought of that, Renee. I have 10 brown thumbs. The only thing I can grow are tomatoes and rosemary (that last of which needs no care).
Sarah wrote: "What have I learned? - Everything I ever needed or wanted or didn't want to know about human cadavers... And then some.":o)
Karen wrote: "Chapters 11 & 1227. I actually went and googled this when I read it as I was ready to put it in my will! Ufortunately the company still hasn't got the whole composting of bodies thing going on a ..."
No problem with the questions. I am feeling much better, just in time to start walking to and from work. We have gotten about 8 in of snow in the last 2 days and work has shut down early both days. Just waiting to see if I really do need to open the library this afternoon or if I can go home and watch the Olympics. It is still snowing and doesn't look like it will be stopping any time soon.
Chapters 11&12Comments and Discussion
27. We have a few really environment friendly people at work who even put a compost bucket in our staff break room. Anyone now hoping they can plan a "water reduction" instead of cremation or burial?
I’m not sure about the “water reduction”, I did like the freezing/compost thing. What I liked most about it was that the remains could be used to fertilize a remembrance tree.
28. I always liked the experiments of freezing objects in liquid nitrogen and then shattering them. Not so sure I like the idea with people. I guess, though, that I wouldn't see it, only the results like with cremation, so the actuality of it wouldn't make me as squeamish as the idea.
I think it’s a “nicer” option than cremation.
29. There are so many things to think about when I die. Has this book made anyone change their minds about what to do? Anyone decide that they need to know exactly what happens to them or decide that they don't want to think about it at all so they will leave it up to their next of kin?
The book hasn’t changed my mind on what should happen with my body when I’m dead. I’m a big supporter of talking about it with your loved ones and then put it in writing.
30. I like the author's point that much of the funeral ceremony is for the loved ones and she is taking that into account in her decision.
I liked that too.
31. Anyone else interested in reading some of the author's other books now?
I might be, but not right now. Though I did like her style the book was a bit long and hard to get through in places.
Lisa Kay wrote: "Renee wrote: "I like the idea of fertilizing a shrub, but I'm not much of a green thumb in life, so I hope I don't kill the poor plant."LMBO! Oh, dear. I hadn't thought of that, Renee. I have ..."
Well you should see my tomato and rosmary...quite sad. I even managed to kill some mint, and that stuff grows like a weed!
Renee wrote: "I even managed to kill some mint, and that stuff grows like a weed!"I've tried to grow peppermint - without success. I'd love to be able to grow basil, since I cook with it all the time. Alas, I just have no talent for it. My BFF is a gardener, so she gives me some of hers; I cook something in exchange (since she doesn't like to cook).
Chapters 3&4Comments and questions
7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science?
I never thought it would be used like that but it makes complete sense! I kind of wished this part of the book was a bit longer as I've never heard of this use up until Roach's book.
8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!
Doesn't really bother me. The visual stuff doesn't bother me much.
9. The author says the smell of corpses is"dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?
I once participated in an autopsy. No hands on stuff. But was at the table as it went on. I was smelling that rotting flesh smell everywhere. It just stays with you. I flushed my nose and everything. It was weeks before I stopped smelling it.
The rotting meat smell is sort of on the money. It is really hard to describe scents in words. I think rotting fruit and rotting meat is fairly specific enough to describe the smell of cadavers. I would almost describe it as cold rotting fat. It is not my most favorite scent for sure.
10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?
I like the fact that the morticians make it so professional. The cadavers are treated with the same respect that a living person would receive (maybe even better). I also liked that Roach went into some detail about how the embalming occurs. I didn't know that the embalming fluid rehydrated. I thought it was simply for preserving.
11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?
I would feel that if parents would be ok with contributing their child's body for science, then, it should be allowed. It may save the life of another child somewhere but enhancing safety measures in cars, carseats, seatbelts, etc.
However, I also see the other side of it. Seeing your child pass away way before their prime must be an extremely difficult time for parents. A very emotional time compounded by the requests for scientific research could be a recipe for disaster.
Also, given that children aren't always expected to all of a sudden die and the fact that they aren't old enough to truly consent to give their bodies for science, it would make it that much more difficult to donate for research purposes.
@ Courtney#9 - Very true.
#10 - I knew it re-hydrated, but not to that effect.
Lisa Kay wrote: "Renee wrote: "I even managed to kill some mint, and that stuff grows like a weed!"I've tried to grow peppermint - without success. I'd love to be able to grow basil, since I cook with it all the..."
My basil is going alright. I live in a tropical climate in Darwin Australia, so it's like growing everything in a hothouse. Common mint might be easier, but that is what I killed... "Thrive on neglect" is what I prefer.
So I kinda messed up my 'reading schedule' since I started reading for the February reading challenge and forgot about this! I started this book yesterday - way too late - but as I go I will discuss the questions after all. Hope that's still okay, haha. ^_^'Introduction & Chapter 1 + 2
1. I've decided to read this book, because the synopsis actually sounded really interesting. I mean, for most people it's normal to have their bodies either cremated or buried after they die, but for some there's a different purpose. I thought it would be fascinating to read about those 'different' stories.
2. The way I look at it is the same way the author looks at it. She says it herself: "Many people will find this book disrespectful. There is nothing amusing about being dead, they'll say. (...) There is nothing funny about losing someone you love, or about being the person about to be lost. This book is about the already dead, the anonymous, behind-the-scenes dead." I can understand why people think this book would be disrespectful if they can't 'seperate that cadaver from the person'. However, when reading this book you shouldn't see the cadavers as the people they used to be. (Hopefully I don't sound as 'disrespectful' as the book now, lol.)
3. I don't think it is her 'coping machanism'. I think she used the separating-the-cadaver-from-the-person method here as well. She remembers her mom the way she was, the person she loved and knew. Her body is now no longer considered 'her mom', but just a body. It no longer has the personality, it's no longer the person. I've heard many people say the same thing when one of their loved ones died. How it's no longer that person. It almost seems like the dead body makes it easier for some people to say goodbye at a funeral, to have the 'person' in front of you to make it more relevant. However, the person itself is more considered the spirit than the body.
4. Hahaha, it did surprise me how chapter 1 started with those heads. It didn't necessarily made me sick to my stomach, but I definitely made a face. Even though it sounded a little bit gross, I knew that some medical students have used 'bodies' to practice on. I did NOT know that sometimes they separated heads (and/or limbs) from bodies, because that's all they need in class. It made me laugh a little as well, since it did sound kind of silly. I mean... Maybe it was more the kind of laughing you have in awkward situations when you don't know how to react. I think it takes a lot of your brain to consider those heads 'objects' instead of people. If you can't convince your brain and it'd keep thinking of it as a human being that's even more messed up than it already is. (I mean, it IS kind of messed up when you think of it right?)
5. I've signed a organ donor form a few years ago. Told them they could use it all for that purpose. I've never thought about other 'purposes' for my body before. It sounds really interesting, but just the thought of my head and limbs being separated from my body to be used in classrooms sounds less appealing to me than just being an organ donor. Maybe I'll change my mind when I get older and end up being one of those many people who don't care about what's going to happen with it, but for now I think I won't get in line for that.
6.It's interesting to see what kind of cadavers were used in the old days and how they were used. Something that I found a little disturbing is that they used unconscious people to practice surgeries and other treatments on (like the pap smear). Imagine you go for something completely different and when you wake up your appendix is removed cause they needed to practice! Also... About the necrophilia. That's definitely something disturbing, but what I find MOST disturbing about it is that there were no laws saying 'hey, that's not okay you know... having sex with a dead body'. Even until today there have only been 16 states who provide laws for that! Kind of insane if you ask me.
@ Yvanka#4 - ...If you can't convince your brain and it'd keep thinking of it as a human being that's even more messed up than it already is...."
True.
#6 - Very disturbing.
Yvanka wrote: "Also... About the necrophilia. That's definitely something disturbing, but what I find MOST disturbing about it is that there were no laws saying 'hey, that's not okay you know... having sex with a dead body'. Even until today there have only been 16 states who provide laws for that! Kind of insane if you ask me. "I have to believe that it's not a common enough problem to cause a lot of issues. Plus if you think about it, even with the creep factor, isn't raping a living person a lot worse than a dead one. I guess I'm glad that they focus on the living people. Though maybe some rules about when people need to get psychological help...
Kelly wrote: I have to believe that it's not a common enough problem to cause a lot of issues. Plus if you think about it, even with the creep factor, isn't raping a living person a lot worse than a dead one. I guess I'm glad that they focus on the living people. Though maybe some rules about when people need to get psychological help... Yes and no. A living person could !!!possibly!!! try to defend themselves and/or ask someone for help. (I know what I'm saying here is a point of discussion - as is your comment.) A dead person has no way of defending themselves, neither can the family/friends of the dead person help out since it's very unlikely they'd know about the matter. The big difference here is that a living person will probably have to suffer from some kind of mental problems for the rest of their lives if this happens and the dead person probably isn't aware of what happened. However, I don't think it's a problem that doesn't need some kind of laws. Also - just like you - I like to believe this problem isn't common enough, but as for most not well-known problems/taboo problems like this, it's probably more common than we all know/hope.
Moderators of Nothing but Reading Challenges (All the Mods) wrote: "Introduction and Chapters 1&2
Comments and questions
~~ Disclaimer: I am a BIG wuss. You may cope with this book better than me! :D ~~
1.This is one of the more unique BOMs we have had! Why have..."
I decided to read this book to broaden my horizons and read something a little different from what I usually read. And I am so glad I decided to join in this discussion. I find this book morbidly fascinating.
2). I can definitely see Roach being criticized for the subject of this book. Most people become offended if you simply reference death, let alone describing what the cadavers endure in gory detail.
3). I believe the author is fully aware that after death it was no longer her mother but the body her mother had inhabited whilst living.
4). Lol. My jaw dropped and my nose curled. I was instantly disgusted and enthralled.
5). Before beginning this book, I had never really given it any thought. Now I am definitely interested in donating my body for scientific research.
6). I am thoroughly enjoying the history provided. I especially enjoyed the history of the body searchers. I've never heard of this before.
Moderators of Nothing but Reading Challenges (All the Mods) wrote: "Chapters 3&4
Comments and questions
7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research..."
7). I actually live about 45 minutes from there. We call it the body farm around here.
8). I have a pretty strong stomachs. If I'm just reading about it I'm fine. If I was actually present at the time I would never be able to eat rice krispies again.
9).I like the detailed descriptions. I think she entwined dark humor into the book to make it easier for the average person to find the information accessible.
10). I don't really understand the appeal behind an open casket funeral. If embalming was no longer utilized for that, then it's sole purpose would be to preserve the bodies for scientific research.
11). As children are minors and unable to consent for their bodies, I can understand a grieving parent's reluctance to donate their child's body.
@ Terri#7 - Really?! How interesting.
#10 - I remember being shocked the first time I went to a funeral on my husband's side of the family and they took pictures. !!! Which is a common practice... but not in my family.
Mod
Moderators of Nothing but Reading Challenges (All the Mods) wrote: "Chapters 5&6Comments and questions
12). I think bodies intact would bother me more than if they were in pieces. Intact it would be too easy to think of them as they would have been if they were still alive. It would make it easier for me to detach.
13). I can understand how cost effectiveness is an issue. An amount of money that large could be used to save even more lives depending upon which area the money is invested into.
14). People underestimate the power of the brain. There have been people who survive serious illnesses due to the power of positive thinking. Or those who die from "fright" having psyched themselves out. It's easy to believe that people would drop immediately if they suspected they were shot simply because they believed beiing shot meant they were supposed to die.
15). I beleve cadavers would still be necessary in some experiments. Maybe not ballistics.
16). I personally would not want to know the details. I have a viivid imagination and thoughts would haunt me. I'm sure I would get nightmares. But I believe if the family requests the information it shouldn't be withheld.
17). When I read that people were actually volunteering to be crucified I wondered if they should have been giiven a mental evaluation first to deem if they were sound of mind to be able to make such a decision. I was very relieved to see that they decided to use belts rather than nails.
@ Terri#14 - Yes, I can totally buy the psychology behind this.
7. I'm not surprised about that. In a way it makes sense, since forensic science often revolves around cadavers. I'd rather have them know what they're doing, don't you?8. Oh I had to laugh about that passage! Poor Ron, hahaha. It sounds gross, but it doesn't stop me from eating rice krispies or chicken soup. I'm one of those people who could eat dinner while watching the most gory movie or the messiest surgery on tv. *shrug*
9. I'm glad she tried to describe the smell in a nice way. It doesn't sound like a good smell, but it also doesn't sound as bad as I thought it would be. Honestly, I don't believe her description can be THAT accurate. Why else do you see people working with cadavers holding some kind of cloth with a strong smell (what is that again?) or at least a mouth-cap? I thought people were about to throw up when they'd smell a rotting body.
10. Now that they described the embalming process, where your mouth is stitched closed with a thread going through your nose I'm kind of curious if you'd be able to see that. While reading this passage I was actually thinking if you'd have an open-casket could you get a close enough look to see the thread or is that so small and covered up with make-up that it's no longer visible? Anyway, it sounded nice that they make you look nicer for your funeral than the actual state your in, but at the same time it doesn't sound too appealing.
11. It's good that they use (or have used) cadavers as test-dummies to get a more realistic view on the impact on the human body. It's understandable that they don't use children's cadavers, but it's sad that they can't get a realistic view on the impact on children's bodies. Like they mentioned, a child's body is different than an adult body, since it's not fully grown yet. Hopefully it won't be a matter of life and death when it comes to it, although I believe it will. The part where they said they used (live!) animals raised my eyebrows a little. I understand that they're probably more 'willing' than live people, but I don't think it's okay. Even though some organs or bone structures may be the same as a human's, they're not humans and therefore it won't be 100% accurate when it comes to test results. Just using any live organism is not okay in my opinion (since I can't see anyone volunteer for it, but even if they do, you need a psychological test telling me you're not insane), even if it would save other lives.
Yvanka#9 - They often use wintergreen oil and a dehumidifier.
#11 - You have a point as a live body is different than a dead one, and I think to some extent it reacts differently.
I remember someone telling us not to look up 'cadaver feet' on Google. I'd say that's better than looking up 'body farm Tennessee'. Why did I do that? (Guess my curiosity won.)
Yvanka wrote: "I remember someone telling us not to look up 'cadaver feet' on Google. I'd say that's better than looking up 'body farm Tennessee'. Why did I do that? (Guess my curiosity won.)"Ha. I just looked up monkey brains for the next book and that didn't turn out any better. I think we need to have a month of less gross books.
Chapter 5 & 612.I think he uses the same kind of coping mechanism as all the professors and students at the medical institutes. It's easier to objectify body parts than an entire body, who you can still easily associate with the person it is/was.
13. It's sad that money always has the overhand in business. Luckily plane crashes aren't that common, but it's sad that the human lives on a plane that does crash are apparently quite insignificant. Looking from the business point of view I understand the decision to save money rather than saving lives. Looking from the human point of view I don't understand why lives are less important than money, when there are obviously suggestions of an increase of plane-crash survival if they'd took the proper measurements. I was thinking it might be worth the money over time, but maybe by the time it would pay back the invested money they invented teleportation or something... Who knows.
14. I'm not sure what point of view I should have on this matter. Apparently the people researching both the psychological and physical effects don't even agree on it. In that case I'd like to believe both factors might play an equal role.
15. I think it's great they can use a substitute for human tissue when it comes to explosions. I understand you can use a cadaver only once, but in my head it made more sense to use limbs, etc. separately for different purposes than an entire cadaver for one. However, the researches would probably even more accurate if you'd use a human body. Then again, they did say cadavers 'age' and their bones are getting thinner and the tissue changes, so it will probably never be 100% accurate unless you'd use a live person. (Which will never happen for research purposes of course, which is a good thing.)
16. I think the way the professor described how they should tell family members about the purpose of their loved one's cadaver is the best way to do it. Not enough info would leave me wondering, but too much info would leave me shocked. Let's just keep it on the: "We'll be using the body for research purposes considering the - place medical term here for whatever body part -."
Chapter 7 & 817. I thought the research the Shroud of Turin was interesting, even though it was less interesting to me than the other chapters so far. Usually I'd say that volunteers for crucifixion must be a little out of their minds, but since they used straps instead of nails I think it wasn't a big deal and probably an interesting experience for those people. (Sorry, I myself, don't really care much for things like this.)
18. I'm not surprised the heart keeps beating a little after. I already read about or watched something that involved heart transplantation and I knew that the heart keeps beating after being removed from the body. When it comes to the believes of someone being dead when their brain stops functioning is something that has been accepted (?) by now, but I can understand that this used to be (and for some people still might be) controversial.
19. Honestly, whether the cells that have been removed from the body feel pain or not isn't really interesting to me. I mean... The person whose cells they are won't feel that. Seems insignificant to me.
20. I haven't read the Unwind books, but the first one has been on my to-read list. It's still a freaky idea that you would feel/think some things of the organ donor when you receive the organ. Maybe it's all in your head, but the idea of having someone else's heart would leave me wondering as well.
21. Most of the chapters are still interesting to me, but I'm definitely ready to finish this book. I liked how this was 'different' from my 'normal' reads.
@ Yvanka#20 - Yes, definitely a bit freaky.
#21 - I was feeling that way, too. I enjoyed the book, but I was ready to finish it.
Lisa Kay wrote: "@ Yvanka#20 - Yes, definitely a bit freaky.
#21 - I was feeling that way, too. I enjoyed the book, but I was ready to finish it."
#21 - me too.
I had no idea what this book was about before I started reading it. How interesting. I found it funny I watched the movie burch and hare so funny. Kinda scary now that i know it happened.This book reminded me why I want to donate my body to science
Nothing But Reading Challenges
Books mentioned in this topic
Gulp: Adventures on the Alimentary Canal (other topics)Bonk: The Curious Coupling of Science and Sex (other topics)
Packing for Mars: The Curious Science of Life in the Void (other topics)
Unwind (other topics)
UnSouled (other topics)
me too ;)