Roach, Mary - Stiff: The Curious Lives of Human Cadavers - Start Date February 2, 2014 [February 2014 Adult Anything Goes BOM]

[Lisa Kay]

Ashley wrote: "#3 - To be honest, I saw it as a very strong showing of faith on Roach's part."

I agree.

[Esther]

Is anyone else listening to the audiobook? I have the impression that the narrator is reading as fast as she can.

I am reading this book because the subject interest me. I have a scientific background. Cadaver do not spook me so no problem there for me. I agree that Roach subject may offend some, but as many pointed out. there will always be someone taking offense no matter what you do. So far, she handles the subject nicely.

I did not learn much about the history as I had already read on the subject but i did about the current situation of med school. I also like the idea of the memorial service.

[Kimberly]

1. Lately I've been trying to expand they types of books I read, particularly reading more non-fiction: I'm utterly hopeless at choosing books for myself, so when I saw this one here, I figured why not?

2. I think the taboos of the subject are part of what makes it so interesting. Because it's not something that is discussed openly, there is the opportunity for a lot of unanswered questions and curiosity.

3. I actually took it more as a statement of fact than a coping mechanism, probably because I share the belief that a body is no longer the person once they are dead.

4. It didn't bother me, probably because I'm used reading much more disturbing things about severed heads in the world of fiction.

5. I've always known that I would donate organs, if possible, but never thought about donating to science before. It may be a moot point though, as the author points out that the need for cadavers may be decreasing as many med programs move to alternatives.

6. I enjoyed the history. I'm always floored by how far science has come in a relatively short amount of time. I think we take a lot for granted in modern times (like that our drs understand how we work and how to repair us) and find it compelling to learn about how that developed.

[Lisa Kay]

Esther wrote: "Is anyone else listening to the audiobook? I have the impression that the narrator is reading as fast as she can."

I'm listening to the audiobook. I hadn't noticed. But then, I usually speed up my audiobooks anyway from 1.25 to 1.5 speed... and I haven't had to for this one.

[Lisa Kay]

@ Kimberly

#2 - Yes, I agree with you Big Time here.

#4 - LOL! Okay. You're braver than I am. I steer clear of that stuff.

#6 - Very true.

[Sarah]

1. This is one of the more unique BOMs we have had! Why have you decided to read this book?

Well, I find the subject matter may be interesting for me since I am in the medical profession, I have dealt with dissection and working with cadavers in my A&P course in university, and I sometimes come into the care of a person being alive and then dead. So I have not only dealt with a dead body but also have learned a lot from the teachings and experimentation throughout the ages that have lead to improved and advanced medical care and treatments and surgery. Work with cadavers has greatly advanced the field of medicine.

2.The subject of death and cadavers is a sensitive one and taboo in many cultures. In the introduction the author states “death makes us helplessly polite.” I could also imagine Roach being criticized by some for writing on this topic. Your thoughts?

Welcome to the field of medicine and research. I am also a little desensitized I am sure.

3. I was surprised when Roach referred to her mother's body as “my mother's cadaver” and “it”. Is that her coping mechanism?

Possibly, my first dead body was my mother's as well, I was 15 when she died of cancer. I think it could also simply be the belief that the body is a vessel for the soul and when the body dies the soul leaves that vessel. It sure felt this way to me. The corpse was not my mother's spirit. But that is getting philosophical.


4. So I felt a bit lulled into a sense of security with the Introduction and then we go straight into a room of sawn off heads in roasting pans! Did anyone else get that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach? As the chapter went on it became easier to cope with the subject matter.

Didn't phase me so much, but I have had years now of being exposed, desensitized, compartmentalized or whatever process has made these things easier, because in the beginning of my career/education I definitely was more emotionally attached or uncomfortable or scared etc....

5. This section had me thinking about if I would donate my body and why I haven't really wondered about it before. Have you?

Yes, it is funny because I also am not a donor. I know the progress that has been made in medicine and the lives that have been saved but a part of me also sees my body, my temple, as sacred and when I die I want to decompose into the earth and not be hacked to bits or baby organs transplanted into someone else. I wonder about how far we will go and how much we will do to live longer and counteract the natural processes of life and aging.???

6. There were so many surprising parts to this section I had never even considered before (like how today's students learn to perform pap smears!). I loved the description of the memorial service for the cadavers. I think it is so important for the students to remember these were people. Did you like the history provided? Are there any parts of these chapters that really stuck out to you?

I like learning about the history of body snatchers and early startings of working with cadavers and dissection when things like this were just very bizarre, very creepy then, but also scientific curiosity into the human body and how it works, pioneers of medicine.

[Lisa Kay]

@ Sarah,

#3 - Now you've got me racking my brain as to the first dead body I saw. I believe it was my grandmother. The family all coming together to care for her (in the years before "Hospice") had a big influence on my becoming a nurse.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

@Renee
How interesting about your experience with Physiotherapy classes. I guess this book has a different meaning for you then!
I have considered (and put myself down) to donate organs, but I guess as we get older it is less likely they are usable! I hadn't thought about donating my whole body before

6. yes, I hadn't thought about how long it would be for the family. That must be strange to wait

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@Imke

5. Interesting! We have the donor option for organs only

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@Audra

2. I agree, I haven't found her disrespectful or anything

4. Ah - yes! I forgot about that

6. lol re: pap smear lady! I agree! And 2.5 years - whoa! I think I would wonder what they did with them ove that period of time

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@Zonnah

welcome :)

2. true. I haven't either although I have had the opportunity I chose to remember people as they were and not have that memory

4. lol!

6. Indeed

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@Amy

2. true

3. yes. I guess we all need to cope with it differently

5. oh, yes that would humanise them

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@Ashley

1. ditto!

3. good point

6. so true

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@Esther

I have the audiobook and I found her quite robotic at first, but got used to it

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@Kimberly

1. cool, welcome :)

2. absolutely

5. true

6. I agree. progress is very fast

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@Sarah

1. yes, I think you will have a special insight for this book

2. probably ;)

5. I think it is a very personal decision and I understand that although you appreciate the advances to medicine/science you don't necessarily want to be a part of it.

[Moderators of NBRC, Challenger-in-Chief]

Chapters 3&4
Comments and questions

7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research facility" and I remember they often receive more body donations than they can use. If you are interested in finding out more about their work here is the link: http://fac.utk.edu/

8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!

9. The author says the smell of corpses is"dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?

10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?

11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?

[Ashley]

7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research facility" and I remember they often receive more body donations than they can use. If you are interested in finding out more about their work here is the link: http://fac.utk.edu/

I was definitely surprised to learn about how cadavers are used for forensic science. I never thought of how the forensic scientists like the ones on Bones came to learn all the different things they know. It was very eye-opening for me to learn about all that.

8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!

I don't think that effected me that much. So no, I think I'll happily eat my rice krispies and chicken soup without remembering that passage.

9. The author says the smell of corpses is "dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?

I think the description was necessary, since so many statements were made prior to this description about the stench of the bodies. I definitely was wondering what type of a stench would drive people to not park in a certain part of a parking lot at certain times of year.

10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?

I found the description and history intriguing to read about. Obviously, as shown in life with face lifts and different anti-aging products that are for sale everywhere, we all want to be preserved as youthful and beautiful. So I enjoyed reading to what lengths they had gone to attempt to find an embalming solution that never faded.

11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?

I hadn't considered that concept previously either, but it does make sense! I think that using child cadavers would be difficult to argue for ethically from a research standpoint. However, these scientists are willing to go to such great lengths to test out the human injury breaking point, I can understand logically why they would like to use child cadavers for their research.

[Zonnah]

Karen wrote: " true. I haven't either although I have had the opportunity I chose to remember people as they were and not have that memory"

That is my feelings as well.

[Zonnah]

Chapters 3&4
(view spoiler)[

7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research facility" and I remember they often receive more body donations than they can use. If you are interested in finding out more about their work here is the link:http://fac.utk.edu/

I heard about this before so it was not a surprise.

8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!

LOL, last night someone made rice krispie treats and while eating it I thought about that passage. It did not stop me from eating. Although, they were not crackling since there was no milk. ;)


9. The author says the smell of corpses is"dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?

I think she is doing a good job at describing what she went through while she was there. It was obviously something that stood out to her and she needed to share it. I never really thought about what we would smell like while rotting and it is interesting to know. Not sure about making it more accessible, maybe in that we get to experience it the way she did, which might be the way we would if we were there.

10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?

I was also intrigued about the history of it. It was all new to me.

11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?

Sentimentality is such a funny thing. The logical side of me says that children should defiantly be used so that my living son would be safer in our car. But, my emotional side says, I will never donate my sons body because I would not be able to keep images of the process out of my mind. Oh the conundrum!



Side point: I have been enjoying the little bit of humor she has been adding in at moments that are a bit intense. It has been helping to make this an easier read for me.

(hide spoiler)]

[Kelly]

Introduction and Chapters 1&2
Comments and questions

1.This is one of the more unique BOMs we have had! Why have you decided to read this book?
I've read all the BOMs for the last while. It helps expand the genre's I read.

2.The subject of death and cadavers is a sensitive one and taboo in many cultures. In the introduction the author states “death makes us helplessly polite.” I could also imagine Roach being criticized by some for writing on this topic. Your thoughts?
I don't think I'd ever criticize someone for writing on a topic as long as they're being reasonably respectful. The only problems I tend to have with writers are the ones who publish things that are just rants. I feel like this is on par with someone writing about the underground sex trade. Something that also makes people feel icky but is never-the-less a valid topic of discourse.

3. I was surprised when Roach referred to her mother's body as “my mother's cadaver” and “it”. Is that her coping mechanism?
I'm not sure it's any different than saying "my mother's body". It's something that belongs to her but isn't really her in any real sense. If it was then it wouldn't work to do organ transplants.

4. So I felt a bit lulled into a sense of security with the Introduction and then we go straight into a room of sawn off heads in roasting pans! Did anyone else get that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach? As the chapter went on it became easier to cope with the subject matter.
Heh. I had been watching a bunch of Rizzoli and Isles (detective homicide show) earlier in the day so maybe I had already been desensitised. I did have strange dreams though, not sure if it was the book or the show or both.

5. This section had me thinking about if I would donate my body and why I haven't really wondered about it before. Have you?
I think the only thing I really cringe at is going to a body farm. As far as plastic surgery practice or wrinkle repair I think I'd only have a problem with it if they did that instead of taking it to help someone with a medical problem. I can't imagine they'd pass someone who needs a skin graft to use it for wrinkles though. It's better than wasting it. I find it creepier to cremate and turn yourself into a gem that someone can wear. Talk about not letting people move on... (http://www.lifegem.com/)

6. There were so many surprising parts to this section I had never even considered before (like how today's students learn to perform pap smears!). I loved the description of the memorial service for the cadavers. I think it is so important for the students to remember these were people. Did you like the history provided? Are there any parts of these chapters that really stuck out to you?
I thought the history was nice, it gave a little distance to the modern stuff. I think it would have been hard to read if it was all the same.
I think that it's very good that doctors are being taught that that the patients and cadavers are both people. I think sometimes it gets to be just a job to them which is hard when someone's going through a really scary time. I had some issues like that when I was pregnant where they'd say something like "well sometimes things just don't work out." which is so not what you say to a pregnant lady. Learning respect for the cadavers probably helps them learn to deal with things in a better manner all around.

[Lisa Kay]

@ Ashley

#8 - Me, too! Thank you very much. LOL!

#11 - I can understand it logically, too.

[Lisa Kay]

@ Zonnah

#8 - Oh, dear! LOL! I had them, too, the other day and it didn't even enter my mind.

#11 - I can understand that.

[Sarah]

Lisa Kay wrote: "@ Sarah,

#3 - Now you've got me racking my brain as to the first dead body I saw. I believe it was my grandmother. The family all coming together to care for her (in the years before "Hospice") ..."

Yeah, my mom had hospice - it is a really wonderful thing I think, and my mom was able to die at home, in her bed, surrounded by her family. I am glad for that. It also gave family an opportunity to spend some time with the body in the most perfect setting while saying final goodbyes.

[Lisa Kay]

Yes, Sarah, I had Hospice in for my mom, too. They are a whole different breed of nurses. They made the experience a whole lot better than it could have been.

[Courtney]

1.Why have you decided to read this book? It's a subject I've never read on before. It's a fresh perspective on what happens to all of us in the end. Not necessarily the science part but, the ending up as a cadaver.

2.The subject of death and cadavers is a sensitive one and taboo in many cultures. In the introduction the author states “death makes us helplessly polite.” I could also imagine Roach being criticized by some for writing on this topic. Your thoughts? I feel it is a brave of her to write about this subject as there could be backlash. However, I also feel that there is an interest about the subject of cadavers used for science. We never really hear about how they're specifically used. Plus, the cadavers are anonymous and they have given their consent for their bodies to be used for science. I see no harm here.

3. I was surprised when Roach referred to her mother's body as “my mother's cadaver” and “it”. Is that her coping mechanism?
I believe so. I think it is also a way of acknowledging that the part that made her mother her mother is gone.

4. So I felt a bit lulled into a sense of security with the Introduction and then we go straight into a room of sawn off heads in roasting pans! Did anyone else get that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach? As the chapter went on it became easier to cope with the subject matter.
All I could think about was performing the act of sawing off the heads. I don't think I could ever cut off a head ever. Even if I were to think of them as wax heads like in the book, I couldn't do it.

5. This section had me thinking about if I would donate my body and why I haven't really wondered about it before. Have you?
I've thought about it. I think I would donate my organs (if possible) first. But, I may donate my body to science for health and safety reasons. I would have a hard time agreeing to have my head chopped off just to be used for practicing facelifts. Yes, I agree that facelifts should be practiced before being performed on patients. But, I don't think I'd want my body to be donated to science just for someone elses vanity.

These were very thought provoking questions.

My first book club posting!! *hurray!* This is going to be a very good addiction!

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

@Ashley

9. Ah yes, that's true. I remember when I worked at a dairy company and the carpark near the factory was such a putrid smell! I can't imagine smelling something awful and knowing it was bodies.

11. I agree it is a tough argument

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@Zonnah

8. lol!

9. I had never thought of it either.

11. Yes the thought of my son's body being used like that... yep can't do it!

I agree about the hunmour. I like her style. It is light, but also serious, respectful and at times funny

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@Kelly

2. True. And I don't feel like she is ranting, it is quite informative really

4. lol

5. wow. I had no idea! That is just something else :o

6. agreed

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@Courtney

1. True

2. I agree

4. yes, that is the strangest job... ever...

hooray! welcome! Yes, they get very addictive ;)

[Jex]

Introduction and Chapters 1&2
Comments and questions

1.This is one of the more unique BOMs we have had! Why have you decided to read this book?
I've always been interested in the thought of donating your body to science. This book gives a better look into that realm.

2.The subject of death and cadavers is a sensitive one and taboo in many cultures. In the introduction the author states “death makes us helplessly polite.” I could also imagine Roach being criticized by some for writing on this topic. Your thoughts?
Definitely controversial, but I don't believe it should be. Once your dead, your body is pretty much worthless if you just put it in the ground to rot. Even for those that are religious, most believe the soul leaves the body behind so what's the point of not using the body to further society or growth of life (aka a tree or something)? I can see how many wouldn't like her writing about this topic, but it's right up my alley.

3. I was surprised when Roach referred to her mother's body as “my mother's cadaver” and “it”. Is that her coping mechanism?
I think that's how many cope with dead bodies. You have to take the human aspect out of it to make it not seem so weird or creepy or gross. After death you are no longer who you once were, you're just a body or an "it".

4. So I felt a bit lulled into a sense of security with the Introduction and then we go straight into a room of sawn off heads in roasting pans! Did anyone else get that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach? As the chapter went on it became easier to cope with the subject matter.
It didn't really bother me. I think it's great that people are able to practice with the heads to ensure that they can fix more live people. I was sad however to hear how much it cost them to use a head. Ouch.

5. This section had me thinking about if I would donate my body and why I haven't really wondered about it before. Have you?
I've thought about it before for sure. This book actually makes me want to do it more. I think my family might not understand though because they aren't as sciency as me.

6. There were so many surprising parts to this section I had never even considered before (like how today's students learn to perform pap smears!). I loved the description of the memorial service for the cadavers. I think it is so important for the students to remember these were people. Did you like the history provided? Are there any parts of these chapters that really stuck out to you?
TBH I don't remember which part is which as I'm listening to the audio and am on Chapter 8ish right now. I'll not answer just in case I give something away

[Jex]

@Renee: #4 - That's so interesting! I bet it was weird to have everything suddenly head less. Or maybe it was better?

@Imke: I wish they'd ask those questions here in the states. They only ask for organ donors as LK said. I think Americans would be more likely to donate if it was as simple as checking a box. Here I think it has to be put in your will or whatever. I don't know the specifics.

[Jex]

Chapters 3&4
Comments and questions

7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research facility" and I remember they often receive more body donations than they can use. If you are interested in finding out more about their work here is the link: http://fac.utk.edu/
I took a few classes that talked a lot about the body farm, not to mention shows like Castle and CSI always bring it up. It's very interesting.

8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!
Lol. It didnt' really get to me.

9. The author says the smell of corpses is"dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?
I liked the description, but I still can't grasp what it smells like. I can't say I want to go sniffing one either.

10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?
I've been to several funerals, but only one was ever open casket. It seems like more people I know go the route of cremation.

11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?
It's sad, but children die just the same. Why not use a child to hopefully save a child down the road?

[Nancy]

Chapters 3&4
Comments and questions

7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research facility" and I remember they often receive more body donations than they can use. If you are interested in finding out more about their work here is the link: http://fac.utk.edu/

I have to say that this chapter kinda grossed me out! One would assume that cadavers would need to be used to study forensic science, but this chapter was a little too detailed for me! I have to say that Roach lightens the mood with her added humor, which I find enjoyable!

8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!

I know! Unfortunately, she was a little too descriptive in her writing for me!

9. The author says the smell of corpses is"dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?

As gross as I'm finding certain passages, I definitely think Roach is trying to make the subject more accessible to people who will probably never experience such things in their lives.

10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?

I'm finding a lot of this book informative. I didn't really know much about the history of embalming. It's really making me think more about the possibility of cremation or donating my body to science though!

11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?

I always thought that only "crash test dummies" were used, so again, something new I learned. I do see the usefulness of human cadaver. Though, I'm not sure how many people are like Deb though and think "I want to work with cadavers when I grow up!"

[Kelly]

Chapters 3&4
Comments and questions

7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research facility" and I remember they often receive more body donations than they can use. If you are interested in finding out more about their work here is the link: http://fac.utk.edu/
I knew they were used that way. It still makes me cringe. I know it's useful but I can't get past the ick factor on that one.

8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!
Heh I sure hope so. I did read yesterday's section while eating breakfast but I'm glad I didn't read chapter 3 while eating.

9. The author says the smell of corpses is"dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?
Better than having to smell it ourselves I suppose. I have a fairly sensitive sense of smell so I'd be very happy not to have to smell it.

10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?
Everything seems to become a fad, I suppose for funerals it's your last chance to make an impression on the world in some regards. I do think it's more for whoever is left behind though. I doubt this was the case when the book was written but I just heard about 2 new companies, one of which will launch your remains (cremated) into space and another will put it on a satellite. (I think it was 2k and 5k respectively). People choose really strange ways to try to "live on". I think I'd much rather try to produce some work, or inspire my kids or something that means a lot more.

11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?
Hrm. I wonder if it's a lack of supply too. I'd imagine if the kid had an accident of some sort that they'd use the organs real fast on another kid who needed them since there's such a shortage. Otherwise, it was probably something like cancer, or severe illness which may make them unable to test on them (i.e. brittle bones or something like that).

[Kimberly]

7. I knew of this use from tv shows like Bones. I don't remember being all that surprised, it just seemed logical to me.

8. I'm clearly not that bothered by this aspect as I actually found these descriptions really helpful. The comparison to such common (food) items, made it really easy to understand the description. I also enjoyed the humour that went hand in hand with these descriptions

9. Hmmm- this would explain my mother in law's comment that she thought we had a dead human in the fridge...

10. I find the embalming description much more disturbing than the stuff about putrification. Something about all these life like bodies hanging out in graveyards (even if it doesn't last forever) is just creepy to me.

11. I had the same thought as @Kelly: that supply is partially a factor when it comes to child cadavers- in the developed world the child mortality rate is quite low (generally regarded as a very good thing).
I think the other big factor is that when we decide what to do with our bodies as adults, we have years to think about what we might want, research options, and it isn't a particularly sad decision as we know death is an eventuality. We can make a rational decision and happily assume that we will be donating our 110 year old body after we're good and done with it. Nobody plans for their children to die, so the decision is something that must be made in a short time and emotionally fragile state- if it's not something the parents are already familiar with (and chances are they aren't), this makes it a lot less likely decision.

One thing I find interesting is how much the author, despite her constant reminders that the cadavers are not the people, uses a fair bit of personification in her descriptions.

Something that did rub me the wrong way, though, was her comment about how Deb "didn't look like an engineer" because she is pretty.

[Lisa Kay]

@ Courtney

#4 - Yeah, I don't think I could cut off a head, either.

Neat that this is your first.

[Lisa Kay]

@ Jex

#4 - Good point about your family; that could be a consideration for some people.

#11 - Excellent point.

Congrats, Seahawks, first time Superbowl champs!

[Lisa Kay]

@ Nancy

#11 - I knew they used cadavers; I just never thought of child cadavers.

[Lisa Kay]

@ Kelly

#10 - Really?!

[Lisa Kay]

@ Kimberly

#9 - LOL! Oh, dear!

#11 - You're right about the personifications.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

@Jex

2. very true

4. Yes, but I guess it is a supply v demand thing

7. I agree. fascinating!

9. lol!

--------

@Nancy

7. true, the humour is needed to lighten the mood sometimes ;)

8. lol. I'm glad I'm not the only wuss!

11. haha. indeed

------

@Kelly

7. Funny as that was one of the examples I didn't find so icky! lol

8. I wouldn't recommend it ;)

10. gees. that is something else

11. good point

-------

@Kimberly

8. we all react differently I suppose ;)

9. lol!

11. yes, very true

I agree about the personification despite her referring to "it" with her mother. I didn't pick up on the Deb comment, but I guess that is showing her own descrimination regarding what people in this field "should" look like

[Moderators of NBRC, Challenger-in-Chief]

Chapters 5&6
Comments and questions

12.Dennis Shanahansaid the hardest thing about examining Flight 800 was that most of the bodies were intact.
"Intactness bothers me much more than the lack of it."
Do you agree this would be harder?

13. The explanation of how regulators put a price to a human life when determining cost/benefit analysis of safety features was sobering. Your thoughts?

14. What do you make of the theory that our reactions to being shot are psychological rather than immediately physiological?

15. So where cadavers are not available, or where a country doesn't allow them for ballistics research, human tissue simulant is used. Do you think there is benefit in using cadavers when an alternative is available? Has your opinion changed while reading the book?

16. Should family members know what happens to their loved ones cadaver? Would you like to know and have veto?

17. The research into the Shroud of Turin was interesting. Especially all the volunteers for crucifixion! Did that surprise you?

[Renee]

Chapters 3&4
Comments and questions

7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research facility" and I remember they often receive more body donations than they can use. If you are interested in finding out more about their work here is the link: http://fac.utk.edu/
I wasn't surprised, but I really hadn't put much thought into it before. I've been watching alot of NCIS recently and the idea of determining time of death from state of decay is very familiar, but I'd never really thought about how the data was determined in the first place.

8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!
Wasn't fazed by this one. When I was disecting cadavers at uni I was also dating a guy studying nursing, so our dinner time conversation was often quite interesting... I think we must have both had strong stomachs, because it never put us off our food.

9. The author says the smell of corpses is"dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?
I liked the descriptions. I would rather hear a description than acutally smell it myself.

10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?
I loved six feet under, watched all of the episodes. I was thinking of it too whilereading this chapter. I'm still thinking of donating my body, in which case an open casket would not be appropriate.

11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?
I hadn't put much thought into crash test cadavers before either. I knew all about crash test dummies (a popular band when I was younger, mmmm mmmm mmmm mmmm. Not sure if I would want to donate my children to science. Quite willing to donate organs, but I think I would want the closure of a funeral a bit sooner.

[Kelly]

Kimberly wrote: "Something that did rub me the wrong way, though, was her comment about how Deb "didn't look like an engineer" because she is pretty. "

Yeah I thought that was a bit sad too. I was the only female Software Engineer in my graduating class at school and work on a team of all males (though my boss is female and used to be on the team). So I suspect some of the stereotype just comes from lack of examples to prove otherwise.

[Zonnah]

Nancy wrote: " I'm not sure how many people are like Deb though and think "I want to work with cadavers when I grow up!""

I think it might be something they just fall into and never really consider that that will be part of it.

[Zonnah]

Kelly wrote: I have a fairly sensitive sense of smell so I'd be very happy not to have to smell it."

Good thing they don't make books that put out smells!

[Zonnah]

Chapters 5&6
(view spoiler)[

12.Dennis Shanahansaid the hardest thing about examining Flight 800 was that most of the bodies were intact.
"Intactness bothers me much more than the lack of it."
Do you agree this would be harder?

Yes. I think if it was not whole it would be easier to tell yourself that it was not real and get on with your job.

13. The explanation of how regulators put a price to a human life when determining cost/benefit analysis of safety features was sobering. Your thoughts?

It made me mad.

14. What do you make of the theory that our reactions to being shot are psychological rather than immediately physiological?

I had never thought about it before. I do wish there was a conclusive answer because I would like to know.

15. So where cadavers are not available, or where a country doesn't allow them for ballistics research, human tissue simulant is used. Do you think there is benefit in using cadavers when an alternative is available? Has your opinion changed while reading the book?

My opinion is still the same in that I think there are situations where both are necessary. If your research is such that can allow for accurate results with the tissue simulant, then by all means use it but there will be certain tests that only a cadaver would give the right results.

16. Should family members know what happens to their loved ones cadaver? Would you like to know and have veto?

I think it should be an option. I do know some people feel better knowing all the details but not me, the less I know the better.

17. The research into the Shroud of Turin was interesting. Especially all the volunteers for crucifixion! Did that surprise you?

This is in chapter seven so I will hold off on answering it since I am not there yet :)

Side point: When they were talking about no one wanting to donate their bodies to be blown up, the first thing that came to my mind was out of all the ways your cadaver can be used, I like this one the best! I could donate my body if I knew I was going to be blown up. I know weird.

(hide spoiler)]

[Kimberly]

@zonnah
They could make it scratch and sniff, lol

[Christine]

Chapters 1 & 2

1.This is one of the more unique BOMs we have had! Why have you decided to read this book?
My purpose in joining GR groups was to broaden the range of books I read. This book definitely does that!

2.The subject of death and cadavers is a sensitive one and taboo in many cultures. In the introduction the author states “death makes us helplessly polite.” I could also imagine Roach being criticized by some for writing on this topic. Your thoughts?
I can definitely imagine her being criticized for writing a book on this topic. I, myself, had a fleeting thought that people I know will probably think I am awfully morbid when they see this book on my GR shelves. ;-)

3. I was surprised when Roach referred to her mother's body as “my mother's cadaver” and “it”. Is that her coping mechanism?
I found that somewhat surprising too. But I suppose one has to assume the perspective of viewing all deceased bodies as objects rather than people in order to research and write on this topic, especially with humor as she did.

4. So I felt a bit lulled into a sense of security with the Introduction and then we go straight into a room of sawn off heads in roasting pans! Did anyone else get that sick feeling in the pit of your stomach? As the chapter went on it became easier to cope with the subject matter.
For me, beginning the book with decapitated heads in roasting pans was a bit of a jolt. I suppose there isn't really a graceful way to ease into this topic, though, so you might as well jump right in.

5. This section had me thinking about if I would donate my body and why I haven't really wondered about it before. Have you?
I have thought about donating my organs to living people, but I'm not sure if I'm comfortable donating my body for experiments. Even the idea of cremation makes me a little squeamish, honestly. This book has certainly made me think a little more about the process of natural decomposition (unpleasant). But my gut reaction still seems to be that decomposition is simply nature taking its course, while experiments or even cremation smacks a bit of intentional mutilation.

6. There were so many surprising parts to this section I had never even considered before (like how today's students learn to perform pap smears!). I loved the description of the memorial service for the cadavers. I think it is so important for the students to remember these were people. Did you like the history provided? Are there any parts of these chapters that really stuck out to you?
The idea of professional "pelvic educators" definitely surprised me, but that does seem to make the most sense! At least a living person would be able to give the students feedback on their technique when performing exams for the benefit of their future patients.

I liked that the students held the memorial service for their cadavers. I'm glad that medical schools are making the effort to teach sensitivity to their students.

[Kelly]

Kimberly wrote: "@zonnah
They could make it scratch and sniff, lol"

Heh. I remember thinking something like this when I heard that they made things to plug into your computer to give off different scents. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digital_...) I kept thinking most of the games I play I really wouldn't want a scent associated with them... Imagine a zombie game with extra senses *shudders*

[Christine]

Chapters 3&4

7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research facility" and I remember they often receive more body donations than they can use. If you are interested in finding out more about their work here is the link: http://fac.utk.edu/

That surprises me that they receive more donations than they can use! I would've thought that there is always some sort of experiment that some scientist would like to do. I suppose it all depends on funding though. While I have never thought about how forensic experts have developed their body of knowledge, it didn't really surprise me to learn about it.

8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!
That part of the book was one of the most disturbing for me. I have personally had a strong revulsion to maggots since I was a child, when I inadvertently watched a movie that children should definitely not watch. But I am trying not to allow my mind to dwell too much on the comparisons to food!

9. The author says the smell of corpses is"dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?
It was an important observation for the purposes of this book. I was not particularly curious about that to start with though!

10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?
I agree that the history of embalming was pretty interesting to learn about, because I'm always interested in how the details of life differed in generations past. I did find the section describing in some detail how bodies are prepared for embalming to be a bit disturbing, although it is morbidly interesting.

11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?

I can appreciate the scientific merits of using child cadavers. However, I don't think I could ever bring myself to donate my child's body for experimentation. I think it might be more difficult for the scientists to maintain emotionally removed too if they were working with child cadavers.

[Christine]

Chapters 5 & 6

12.Dennis Shanahansaid the hardest thing about examining Flight 800 was that most of the bodies were intact.
"Intactness bothers me much more than the lack of it."
Do you agree this would be harder?
I think that once a person became accustomed to seeing individual pieces of people's bodies, it would probably be easier to think of them as objects and remain emotionally disconnected than it would be working with intact bodies.

13. The explanation of how regulators put a price to a human life when determining cost/benefit analysis of safety features was sobering. Your thoughts?
I agree that it is very sobering but realistic that many safety decisions are based on money. Cost versus benefit is something one always has to consider in any decision making process, but the idea that they assign a finite dollar value to someone's life is very distasteful.

14. What do you make of the theory that our reactions to being shot are psychological rather than immediately physiological?
There might be some merit to that. I have never been shot or shot any living thing, so I don't have any experience on which to base an opinion.

15. So where cadavers are not available, or where a country doesn't allow them for ballistics research, human tissue simulant is used. Do you think there is benefit in using cadavers when an alternative is available? Has your opinion changed while reading the book?
I think that when the simulant would provide an equal value of scientific information, it should definitely be used over actual human tissue. However, this book really outlines all the ways that real human cadavers can be indispensable for research purposes.

16. Should family members know what happens to their loved ones cadaver? Would you like to know and have veto?
I think it could be emotionally harmful to family members to know the details of what kind of study is being conducted on their loved one's body. Before reading this book, I always associated "donating a body to science" with anatomy labs, which seems much less objectionable somehow than decomposition research, crash tests, or ballistics studies. But I still would not want anyone to give me the details that my loved one is being gradually dissected, decapitated, etc by medical students. When you agree to donate your family member's body for the advancement of science, you can keep your focus on the benefit to society. But if you get into the nitty gritty details with family members, I think many of them would not be able to stomach it emotionally. I don't think I could.

17. The research into the Shroud of Turin was interesting. Especially all the volunteers for crucifixion! Did that surprise you?
It was interesting. I've always thought it a bit silly though, all the effort that sometimes goes in to proving or disproving the authenticity of holy relics. I am a Christian, but my faith is not going to be altered by the authenticity of lack thereof of the Shroud of Turin.

It did not surprise me that people volunteered to be bound to a cross. The idea that a few people wanted to volunteer to actually be nailed to it is creepy, but it didn't really surprise me. People want to do all kinds of crazy things.

[Imke]

Chapters 3&4
Comments and questions

7. Were you surprised to learn how cadavers are used for forensic science? I have seen documentaries about the University of Tennessee's "anthropology research facility" and I remember they often receive more body donations than they can use.
Not at all.

8. I was eating my lunch while listening to the part about purification of bodies. Bad idea!! Will you ever eat rice krispies and chicken soup again without thinking of that passage?!
Sure I will. You should never eat lunch while reading about such things. I found her descriptions about her companions reaction so funny.

9. The author says the smell of corpses is"dense and cloying, sweet but not flower-sweet. Halfway between rotting fruit and rotting meat." what do you think of her descriptions? Are they important to satisfy our curiosity? Does it help to make a non fiction book more accessible?
Her descriptions are very good and help make it more real. I like the way she describes things in a direct manner and is not trying to make things more palatable. I do think she is using a lot of humor to soften things, make the story she is telling lighter.

10. I was really interested in the description and history of embalming which explained why it is popular in North America. Over the years I have seen American TV/Movies with "open caskets" and references to embalming (e.g. Six Feet Under!), but it is not very common here in Australia. Your thoughts on this passage?
I liked the passage, I was also surprised to read that embalming started out in The Netherlands as it is no longer allowed.

11. I had not considered cadavers would be used as crash test dummies, but it makes perfect sense! I was disturbed by the thought of child cadavers and understand why they are not often used despite the "logical argument". Comments?
I didn’t know cadavers were used as crash test dummies, makes sense though.

[Kimberly]

Chapters 5&6

12. I think it depends on what bothers you: to me pieces are "gross" and would be hard for a stomach to handle (of course working with them regularly would desensitize you to that somewhat I imagine) Where intact bodies are more sad and hard for the heart/mind to handle. Which is "harder" would depend on an individuals coping mechanisms for the physical and mental/emotional difficulties.

13. Definitely sobering, and also very enlightening for me. Having young kids, I am involved in some car seat safety advocacy groups that strongly recommend buying an airplane seat and having children under 2 ride in their car seat rather than holding them on a parents lap for free. The FAA does recommend the use of car seats, but still allows lap babies, and the biggest argument that comes up is that "they wouldn't allow it if it wasn't safe" This cost/benefit analysis strategy puts into perspective exactly why they would allow it: because the cost to the airlines of all the families who would no longer fly if their infants weren't free is greater than the value assigned to the few lives it might save.

14. It makes sense to me that it's a combination of the 2 as pain in general is both physiological and psychological in my experience

15. I think that cadavers are necessary to develop these alternatives and make sure they are going to respond similar enough to human tissues for the purpose in question. Once that has been established, I think the alternatives are best used until there is some reason to question the similarity (in a new application for example, where there may be factors not accounted for in the alternative). The same idea as how they use cadavers to determine the injury thresholds for crash test dummies, then the dummies can be used going forward rather than doing all crash tests with cadavers.

16. I think the information should be made available if requested, but not routinely given. Different people find closure in different ways, and if a family member feels it would help them to know more details, I don't think it's right to keep it from them.

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

Kelly wrote: "Kimberly wrote: "@zonnah
They could make it scratch and sniff, lol"

Heh. I remember thinking something like this when I heard that they made things to plug into your computer to give off different..."

lol!

[Karen ⊰✿, Fiction Aficionado]

@Renee

8. haha!

9. true :)

10. It was an awesome show and one of the few that the end of the series I was really happy with too

11. Ah! Now I have that song stuck in my head! ;)

-----------

@Zonnah

15. yes I think there is a place for both

16. I didn't think I would want to know, but after some of our readers said they it was 12 or 24 months before they got the body back, I think after that amount of time I would be curious as to what journey they went on!

re: your body blowing up... lol! I guess in many ways it would be a cool way to go rather than having all bits and pieces used for different things

---------

@Chirstine

1. sure does!

3. true

5. hmmm yes I see what you mean

7. I remember it was about the amount of space they have as they have all the bodies buried in different areas or in different types of soil/containers and they need to have so much room around them

8. good idea!

11. no I couldn't either

13. I agree. That part was particularly awful

16. Yes it is very hard to make a decision across all as everyone is different

--------

@Imke

8. lol!

9. I agree she doesn't try and use euphamisms and is quite direct which is good

-------

@Kimberly

12. I think I am with you on that

13. True. It is surprising that we still allow that in planes, but not in cars (In australia you need to have a child in a car seat until they are 7 years old, so even more strange that it doesn't translate to other types of transport)

16. I agree

[Jex]

Chapters 5&6
Comments and questions

12.Dennis Shanahansaid the hardest thing about examining Flight 800 was that most of the bodies were intact. "Intactness bothers me much more than the lack of it." Do you agree this would be harder?
It makes them seem more "human" i guess so i could see hot it's harder. I liked the description (forget where it was) about how people buy cows in pieces to eat and rarely look at it as a whole in terms of food. It's a coping mechanism.

13. The explanation of how regulators put a price to a human life when determining cost/benefit analysis of safety features was sobering. Your thoughts?
Tbh, I don't remember this part very well.

14. What do you make of the theory that our reactions to being shot are psychological rather than immediately physiological?
I concur. I don't think the pain sets in until after, but your body reacts how it thinks it should. It's more of a shock than anything.

15. So where cadavers are not available, or where a country doesn't allow them for ballistics research, human tissue simulant is used. Do you think there is benefit in using cadavers when an alternative is available? Has your opinion changed while reading the book?
No matter how close the simulant is, it's not the realy thing. I can see it being useful though because the simulant is always the same where as every body is different. It's a tough thing to research.

16. Should family members know what happens to their loved ones cadaver? Would you like to know and have veto?
Yes and no. I would be interested to see how they were helping, but I feel that too many families will pull out of the trials if they know too many details. Everyone wants to believe that their loved one is curing cancer or solving medical surgeries. They don't want to have them blown up or crashed in a car. However, all aspects are just as important as one another.

17. The research into the Shroud of Turin was interesting. Especially all the volunteers for crucifixion! Did that surprise you?
Yes! I guess I can understand the volunteers that are just being tied up, but the girl that wanted to really be nailed to the cross...that was crazy! I'm not a religious person, but the science behind anything always gets my attention.

[Nancy]

Chapters 5&6
Comments and questions

12.Dennis Shanahansaid the hardest thing about examining Flight 800 was that most of the bodies were intact.
"Intactness bothers me much more than the lack of it."
Do you agree this would be harder?

Yes. It's much easier to see "a leg" versus "an injured leg attached to a person."

13. The explanation of how regulators put a price to a human life when determining cost/benefit analysis of safety features was sobering. Your thoughts?

This chapter and the book in general has brought up so many issues that I have never thought about. It was definitely sobering to hear that some safety features are nixed because they're too expensive.

14. What do you make of the theory that our reactions to being shot are psychological rather than immediately physiological?

Honestly, I kind of skimmed over this chapter, so can't really answer this.

15. So where cadavers are not available, or where a country doesn't allow them for ballistics research, human tissue simulant is used. Do you think there is benefit in using cadavers when an alternative is available? Has your opinion changed while reading the book?

Again, I thought it came down to cost. Cadavers are much cheaper than creating human tissue, if I'm not mistaken. From a scientific perspective, even though they can create human tissue stimulant, I don't think anything can ever substitute for "the real thing."

16. Should family members know what happens to their loved ones cadaver? Would you like to know and have veto?

No, I think it could be too traumatizing and raise too many questions for the family. I think it should just be a yes/no do you want to donate the body to science/research.

17. The research into the Shroud of Turin was interesting. Especially all the volunteers for crucifixion! Did that surprise you?

Didn't read this part yet!

[Esther]

7. I already knew about it.

8. As long as I am not eating it while seeing it, i'm fine.

9. I cannot quite imagine the odor, but, really, i do not want to. :)

10. I found the part about embalming veri interesting. I guess I had never stop to think about it.

11. I did not know, but it make sense. While I get the emotional reluctance of using kid, it could save a life.

12. i can see how a intact body seems more real so more upsetting but i think scattered parts would disturb me more. Hopefully I will never know.

13. It does put things into perspective. Another thing I had not stop to think about, but there must be a line somewhere. The problem is to determine where the line is. The economic factor is not always the best factor but it oftentimes the one that wins.

14. Hard to really know without really having been shot (and i am not THAT curious) but i think there is a bit of both. If you see it coming, you know it's going to happen...

15. A mix of both is probably the answer. It always depends on what the study is about as if i understood properly, stimulant does not react the same way. Having the real thing to judge the difference between the real and the stimulant seems a must to me.

16. I would like to know but it should be given if requested only. As for veto, i can see the nightmare this could generate. So no veto

17. It had to be done, i guess.

[Kelly]

Chapters 5&6
Comments and questions

12.Dennis Shanahansaid the hardest thing about examining Flight 800 was that most of the bodies were intact.
"Intactness bothers me much more than the lack of it."
Do you agree this would be harder?
I think it would be. It's why we're better with steaks than whole cows like was mentioned previously. Also how surgeon's cover up all but one area when working.

13. The explanation of how regulators put a price to a human life when determining cost/benefit analysis of safety features was sobering. Your thoughts?
I was surprised it was that high. I thought it was more in the 250k ish range. I think that might have been lawsuit cost though for car safety enhancements.

Google seems to indicate it runs about 50k (http://content.time.com/time/health/a...) to 9.1 million (http://www.care2.com/causes/epa-puts-...).

I'm an engineer so looking at it from that point of view I completely understand the need for a numeric way to calculate cost-vs-benefit. You have to remember that taking that 500 million dollars that could save 15 people could be put into healthcare or food or education and probably save thousands. 15 over 20 years seems like a lot but it's actually incredibly tiny. It's somewhere around 100 deaths a day from car accidents in the US to put 15 over 20 years in perspective.

14. What do you make of the theory that our reactions to being shot are psychological rather than immediately physiological?
Well... partially psychological. They seemed to indicate that it varied a lot by person. It probably also varies a lot by type of injury. I'm guessing this is in the same realm as your mental state determining if you live or die after an accident more than the injuries you sustain. If you think you can go on, you probably can, if you think you can't then there's not much hope.

I think there's even been cases where people are hypochondriacs and end up giving themselves symptoms. (http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2010/M...) Or broader, how stress can impact health.

15. So where cadavers are not available, or where a country doesn't allow them for ballistics research, human tissue simulant is used. Do you think there is benefit in using cadavers when an alternative is available? Has your opinion changed while reading the book?
I thought Mythbusters when I read this section. I know they sometimes use pigs and sometimes use ballistics gel so I assume it depends on the type of experiment you're running. I suppose if you use the gel you're making an assumption that it's equivalent (though you are with the cadaver vs. live body too) so you have to judge the risk that you're assumption is wrong.

Of course thinking of Mythbusters made me think about how I always wanted to submit the "human flesh tastes like pork" myth to see if they'd come up with a way to test it that didn't get everyone fired :)

16. Should family members know what happens to their loved ones cadaver? Would you like to know and have veto?
Um... I don't think they should force it on people. I like the third option. It reminds me of what 23 and me did for breast cancer and parkinson's. They'd reveal everything else and then made you click to reveal if you wanted to know your decreased/increased risk for those. I know there's people who have a high risk for incurable diseases that just don't want to know if they're going to develop it.

I think I'd want the third option they gave where they give the general area of research without specifics. I think it's equivalent to meeting the person your loved ones organs went to. You get to know what research they helped with. And in a certain regard if you can't phrase your study in a way that shows it benefits people I'm not sure you should do it. I'm not much for encouraging more deadly bullets. I suppose you could say you're helping develop weapons to aid in hostage situations...

17. The research into the Shroud of Turin was interesting. Especially all the volunteers for crucifixion! Did that surprise you?
Hrm. I thought this part was in the next section. I wonder if the book is divided up into different chapters in different versions. I'll answer this one tomorrow I guess unless I missed something.