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Modern terms in fantasy
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Didn't bother me at all. I loved Warbreaker and just adored Lightsong. He was my favorite character in the whole thing and I cry every time I read it
Depends. If used sparingly and within context I'm fine with it. I figure the language the characters are using in the book is different from my own and that the author is a translater if sorts. But when the author uses slang frequently in a non contemporary fantasy it can and usually does turn me off.
Depends for me too. If it is too modern then it throws me out but again it depends on the setting and the book.
I figure why not, within limits anyway, it's not like we are using period language anyway. Hell most fantasy uses the word fire in conjunction with archery, despite the fact that the word didn't come into vogue until muskets and other firearms came into wide use.
And then there are some interesting words, that look modern but are not. For example "fella". Apparently, it is an ancient Nors word.
If fantasy were written in the language of the time it would be as difficult to read as Chaucer. That being said, I'm fine with modern terms as long as the term isn't too new and slangish. I'd have an issue with "dude" for example. But firing arrows and being easy going, I'm okay with. (Okay is another word I'd avoid in fantasy).
I'd rather have modern language than badly-done thee- and thou- laden faux Medievaleth.Having said that, I don't have a problem with a more classical or elevated style. (I think this is something Tolkien really nailed, btw.)
What bothers me all out of proportion is the use of the word "kids" to describe children. I don't mind it in dialogue ("'You kids knock that off,' he said.") but it bothers me in a third-person descriptive passage ("Bringing up the rear of the caravan came Sir Jordan and his kid.")
Depends on how out of time the terms are for me. I read a fantasy novel that used technology terminology from a wide variety of Earth's time periods. It just wasn't feasible that books were rare but metaphors about pop up toasters and cotton balls were in common use. Language slips like that tell me that the author doesn't understand enough about how an element of the world works to be using it prominently in his/her story.On the other end of the scale, Mary Robinette Kowal's Glamourist Histories series is a great example of period language done well in a fantasy series. Her very careful use of period terminology and culture creates an absorbing atmosphere. Kate Elliott has also used this, when she wrote an alternate history Earth where an extended ice age eliminated the influence of Germanic languages. It's a bit over my head (give me math any day...) but I appreciate the effort.
Cussing doesn't bother me, as long as it doesn't make the dialogue impossible to follow and is correct for the cultural context.
What I want, and am trying to do, is put modern situations into fantasy novels. I am trying to shy away from the terms while doing that.Characters struggling with poverty is a good theme. This means they'll have trouble buying weapons, they'll be forced to take jobs they don't want, and of course they'll bicker.
Fantasy novels should deal more with security states and how they can try to keep the main characters down. Perhaps some spies in the tavern trying to overhear conversations, aka fantasy eavesdropping and wiretapping.
How about bad language? Should fantasy characters be using bad language that we'd hear all over the street today? Why not?
I guess these are things you make clear in your blurb and look inside so readers can pick it up right away. But then I guess they wouldn't have anything to complain about later, so maybe that wouldn't be a good idea.
I don't mind the language used as long as it fits the character. A highborn noble isn't going to use slang and a linguist probably isn't going to use contractions for example. As for modern references, that really depends on the context of the story. If a character born to a medieval setting told another to "google it", that would knock me out of the story. However, if a character from our modern world had stepped into another and used the same expression, I'd be fine with it.
I was thinking today, what if you had a story where you're halfway through and it's just great. These characters kill everything, don't take no guff, and the writing is marvelous.Right before they invade the next big lair their's a chirping and then one character pulls out his cell phone. Maybe he tells his wife he'll be late for dinner or something.
Maybe then you find out it was really just them making a fantasy movie, or maybe the author just has it as a funny aside.
Wow, cool idea, but I have a feeling most would really hate it.
I dont mind as long as it is used in a way that flows with the dialog of the characters. Many authors are doing that today myself included. I like to use swear words like "ass" and "bitch" and fuck you....because they bring a realistic element to the character of the real world. The real world is not the disney type of dialog. People cuss and say vile things and pleasant things as well.
A mixture of old and modern work well
I think it's about consistency. I would be a little distracted if we went from full on Tolkien high speech to modern day slang in the space of a paragraph. But if more modern speech has already been established, I'm fine with it. If it's a historical fantasy (i.e., heavy, heavy historical elements with a bit of fantasy), then I'd expect a closer adherence to archaic speech.
Greg wrote: "What I want, and am trying to do, is put modern situations into fantasy novels. I am trying to shy away from the terms while doing that.Characters struggling with poverty is a good theme. This ..."
The modern words I was talking about are cuss words and slang body parts so to speak.
A.J. wrote: "I dont mind as long as it is used in a way that flows with the dialog of the characters. Many authors are doing that today myself included. I like to use swear words like "ass" and "bitch" and fu..."
You didn´t have complaints yet, then? I was recommended to create a local slang, and I´m tempted. Like changing bull-crap by dragon-dung. :)
L.G. wrote: "I think it's about consistency. I would be a little distracted if we went from full on Tolkien high speech to modern day slang in the space of a paragraph. But if more modern speech has already bee..."Yes, I think this is what is happening. The words are mostly in dialog, though.
Greg wrote: "I was thinking today, what if you had a story where you're halfway through and it's just great. These characters kill everything, don't take no guff, and the writing is marvelous.Right before th..."
LOL
Judy wrote: "If fantasy were written in the language of the time it would be as difficult to read as Chaucer. That being said, I'm fine with modern terms as long as the term isn't too new and slangish. I'd have..."Yes... ok is replaced by "Aye"... easy.
Lindsey wrote: "Depends on how out of time the terms are for me. I read a fantasy novel that used technology terminology from a wide variety of Earth's time periods. It just wasn't feasible that books were rare ..."Yes, I see your point in terms of technology. I read once a book that was happening in ancient Egypt and the girl looked herself in a big mirror and couldn´t believe what she saw, etc... there were not such mirrors in that period, they were mostly made out of brushed copper and very small. It killed my trust.
Thanks for the links, Lindsey. :)
L.G. wrote: "I think it's about consistency. I would be a little distracted if we went from full on Tolkien high speech to modern day slang in the space of a paragraph. "You must die during the passage where he compares fireworks to trains then.
"The dragon passed like an express train, turned a somersault, and burst over Bywater with a deafening explosion."
DavidO wrote: "L.G. wrote: "I think it's about consistency. I would be a little distracted if we went from full on Tolkien high speech to modern day slang in the space of a paragraph. "You must die during the p..."
A fair point. But if you read the entire passage where that comes from, it still manages to maintain the same sort of "old-style" feel. I will agree with others that dialogue can often be more jarring when there is a mismatch.
In my opinion the most important rule with any sort of slang (actual and made-up) is less is more. I cannot tell you how many times I have been annoyed by an author who over uses words and phrases.
The only way I would be okay with modern tech in a fantasy book would be if the story took place in the future or if it is a comedy, like the Discworld books. Otherwise it would for me be a big turnoff.
I don't mind modern language in fantasy and use it myself for a simple reason: it's fantasy. There's no especially strong reason that a fantastical world should abide by the rules, lore or language of medieval Europe, as so often seems to happen. That's restrictive, which should go against the very nature of it being fantasy in the first place.
A.J. wrote: "I dont mind as long as it is used in a way that flows with the dialog of the characters. Many authors are doing that today myself included. I like to use swear words like "ass" and "bitch" and fu..."
That would probably pull me right out of the story unless it was something like UF. The kinds of swear words we use now were not common so to see such common words would pull me out - and that's when I start nitpicking.
I consider all fantasy books to be "translations" of whatever language into English - and every language will always have swear words and a modern equivalent of whatever emotion or meaning a character is conveying. If I stub my toe today and say "Shards!" "Bloody hell!" "Frak!" "Dammit!" "Sh*t!" "Crap!" or "Ow!" it all really means "My toe hurts and I feel stupid and angry!"
If a character is easy going, you could use -
relaxed · even-tempered · placid · mellow · mild · happy-go-lucky · carefree · free and easy · nonchalant · insouciant · imperturbable · amiable · considerate · undemanding · patient · tolerant · lenient · broad-minded · understanding · good-natured · pleasant · agreeable · laid-back · unflappable · Type-B · low-maintenance
- of those, only the last two would be pretty specifically modern American enough to seem out of place in a medieval type fantasy land for me.
Michele wrote: "I consider all fantasy books to be "translations" of whatever language into English - and every language will always have swear words and a modern equivalent of whatever emotion or meaning a charac..."Well put.
Language that reeks of modernity breaks the fourth wall. Which is what brings in the humor but also breaks immersion. Even language that was authentically old. All right, you can have your peasants broadcasting seeds, but any metaphorical usage of it is right out.
Metaphors is where I see it most broken actually. How can your characters refer to a strong suit when they don't have cheap paper, and therefore don't have playing cards -- or the game of bridge? Or fire arrows when they don't have firearms? Or, for that matter, have windfalls or low-hanging fruit if they don't have orchards of fruit trees?
The best sort of language is a kind of "timeless" English -- which in its pure state is probably impossible, but one doesn't have to use thous or forsoothly to write something that, say, Jane Austen could have read.
A misplaces modern term can easily and completely destroy my experience from a fantasy novel. The whole point of the genre is to "take you away" from your reality and time, so don't bring me back into it, unless it's on purpose and has something to do with the story and the sub-genre.
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Swearing is one of those things that for me is a matter of context. If it's something like Martin or Abercrombie, say, where the rest of the language has a more contemporary feel, then it doesn't bother me. If Merry or Pippin started dropping F-bombs when the Orcs were chasing them, that'd be a whole 'nother kettle of fish.And yes, like Mary said, poorly chosen metaphors or similes can really throw me out of the story.
I don't have a problem with modern speech patterns in general - I prefer it, because it doesn't pull me out of the story the way that fake-antique style would. On the other hand, metaphors using modern items, that wouldn't exist for the POV character, can stand out. (Though I must confess I hadn't noticed the train bit in Tolkien!) For me, it's all about whether it pulls you out of reading to a place where you're thinking about language & anachronisms instead of about the plot.One weird thing that regularly bugs me is when time is used in standard modern ways ("just a second" or suchlike) when the world doesn't have clocks - or sometimes, any evidence of timekeeping at all. But that particular case stands out for me now because I've spotted it *so* many times.
Random anecdote: I spent ages, once, looking for an alternative to 'cement' because I wanted to use it metaphorically... only to find out that actually, actual cement has been around for a VERY long time.
Rachel wrote: "Random anecdote: I spent ages, once, looking for an alternative to 'cement' because I wanted to use it metaphorically... only to find out that actually, actual cement has been around for a VERY long time. "The problem is the readers who don't realize that. A medieval peasant broadcasting a rumor would probably jolt you, even though every peasant was familiar with taking a handful of seeds and tossing them over the soil, also known as broadcasting them.
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Rachel wrote: "Random anecdote: I spent ages, once, looking for an alternative to 'cement' because I wanted to use it metaphorically... only to find out that actually, actual cement has been around for a VERY long time. "Yep. IIRC, it's concrete that's a new(er) invention.
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I don't mind the use of modern day terms though it does sometimes stand out and makes me think that maybe this word wouldn't have been the best choice. But it doesn't change how I feel about the book..
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Interesting perspective. In an imaginary world aren't feet, yards, quarts, and cubits just as foreign. The right thing to do is have your own measuring system, but that's a lot of explaining to do.
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The thing is that there have been a lot of variations in measurements even within countries.
I tend to assume that when I'm reading something set on an imaginary world, units of time & distance have been "translated" into something more familiar.Occasionally you find a book like A Princess of Mars or The Man of Gold where the units are left in the original form, but then you have to have a footnote or a parenthetical aside or something else to provide the conversion factor for the reader.
I think it's a little weird for us US readers to encounter metric units in our fantasy because for us the metric system is this weird, science fictional measurement system of The Future (which we mostly used in high school chemistry, then promptly abandoned).
Sandra wrote: "I am reading Warbreaker, and noticed some modern terms inserted in the text, especially by characters that are "easy going" like Lightsong.They don´t bother me at all, actually I enjoy the humor...."
I find it obnoxious because it takes me out of the story. I want the world to feel as real as possible and there is nothing more jarring frankly than modern phrases.
I like to think of it as if we are somehow reading a translation into modern English from an ancient tome by an expert translator. Swear words are perfectly natural, because the literal equivalent might sound so silly that the text loses its true meaning.
ah, but exactly how idiomatic do we want it? Do we want a location to be the Valley of Tranquility, or Quiet Valley?Personally I tend toward the literal side; I can imagine myself into the frame of mind where the expressions are to them as ours are to us.
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Books mentioned in this topic
A Princess of Mars (other topics)The Man of Gold (other topics)
Disenchanted (other topics)
They don´t bother me at all, actually I enjoy the humor. But I have heard other people complaining that modern terms take them out of the flow sometimes.
How is it for you? Do modern words, or cussing take you out of the story?