Flights of Fantasy discussion
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What are you reading? (Dec 2013)
Are those Gingerhate Cookies?? I'll take 2.
Dresden is one I need to get back to. I've only read the first one and I did enjoy it.
I read the first... ten Dresden books, I think? Whatever was out at the time. I found the writing pedestrian, and Harry's sexism irritating (well, not so much his sexism -- I can certainly dig a flawed protagonist in a pseudo-noir setting -- as the author's apparent belief that it's not sexism if you mean it nicely), but there was enough there to keep me going until book five or so, at which point I have to admit they became quite moreish.
They don't really stand out enough from other urban fantasy series for me to quite understand the worship they attract, though.
They don't really stand out enough from other urban fantasy series for me to quite understand the worship they attract, though.
I don't really see it as sexism, but rather an overabundance of misguided chivalry. But then, this is one of those things that actually endears me to him more than aggravates me and pushes me away. I find Dresden enjoyable and compelling, and that's more than I can say for a lot of books that I read... just in general, but especially at 14 books in. I'm still enjoying it, and that's pretty impressive to me. :)
Becky wrote: "Nyssa wrote: "I love, love, love, love, love The Dresden Files!! It gets better with every book! "Agree. I want to re-read them soon. :D"
I'm not ready to reread yet, but I can't wait for Skin Games (#15)
Becky wrote: "I don't really see it as sexism, but rather an overabundance of misguided chivalry. But then, this is one of those things that actually endears me to him more than aggravates me and pushes me away...."What Becky said!
Becky wrote: "Are those Gingerhate Cookies?? I'll take 2."
lololololol
I agree with Ti on The Magicians, and Becky on the Dresden.But they're both wrong when you flip the sentence. lol
Chris wrote: "I agree with Ti on The Magicians, and Becky on the Dresden.But they're both wrong when you flip the sentence. lol"
LOL
Becky wrote: "I don't really see it as sexism, but rather an overabundance of misguided chivalry. But then, this is one of those things that actually endears me to him more than aggravates me and pushes me away...."
To me, sexism and misguided chivalry are identical. Sexism doesn't have to be rooted in hate -- it can be intended kindly, like the belief that women are in need of protecting -- it's still sexism. It's the same with any bigotry really. Historically a lot of racists thought they were protecting the peoples they oppressed from themselves, and a lot of people who want to take rights away from LGBT people (or prevent them from being gained in the first place) are doing it out of ostensibly kind intentions like trying to 'save their souls'.
That's what irritates me most about Dresden actually. Not the fact that he's sexist, because I don't think a protagonist in a noir procedural needs to be flawless (makes a change from the usual drinking problem!), but the lack of recognition that he's sexist, as though the fact that it stems from misguided attempts at kindness absolves the inherent inequality of his worldview. Killing me with kindness is really no less offensive than killing me without.
To me, sexism and misguided chivalry are identical. Sexism doesn't have to be rooted in hate -- it can be intended kindly, like the belief that women are in need of protecting -- it's still sexism. It's the same with any bigotry really. Historically a lot of racists thought they were protecting the peoples they oppressed from themselves, and a lot of people who want to take rights away from LGBT people (or prevent them from being gained in the first place) are doing it out of ostensibly kind intentions like trying to 'save their souls'.
That's what irritates me most about Dresden actually. Not the fact that he's sexist, because I don't think a protagonist in a noir procedural needs to be flawless (makes a change from the usual drinking problem!), but the lack of recognition that he's sexist, as though the fact that it stems from misguided attempts at kindness absolves the inherent inequality of his worldview. Killing me with kindness is really no less offensive than killing me without.
Not a fan of The Magicians either...big fan of Dresden. Sort of envy people just finding the series.
Titania wrote: "Becky wrote: "I don't really see it as sexism, but rather an overabundance of misguided chivalry. But then, this is one of those things that actually endears me to him more than aggravates me and p..."I'm sorry but I call BS on the racism comment...they all knew and know exactly from whence their views came. And even though the children are taught that hate, at some point even they make a choice.
I've had this discussion over and over. Harry's not sexist. He discusses his attitudes in the book and deals with many tough strong female characters. That said, I'll never change anyone's mind so...that's cool. We all like different books.
MrsJoseph (taking back my data & giving GR the middle finger) wrote: "Kathy wrote: "I'm reading A Tangled Web by Mercedes Lackey."I should grab a copy of that."
It'a novella that was originally published in the anthology Harvest Moom, but is also available as an ebook.
So far, I have only read the first Harry Dresden book and some short stories, and I didn't feel it was sexist in any way.
Hi Kathy. That's my advice. Decide for yourself.
Hi, Mike. I actually just read the first a few weeks ago and I couldn't put it down! I couldn't believe I had waited so long! :)
I found them a few years ago (while my wife was still alive. She was bed fast and required a lot of care.). I got the first...3 I think it was in a single volume from Science Fiction Book Club and read them back to back. I then got the rest that were out at the time and read them the same way.
Nyssa wrote: "I'm sorry but I call BS on the racism comment...they all knew and know exactly from whence their views came. And even though the children are taught that hate, at some point even they make a choice."
No, it's a matter of record that many people believed that the peoples they subjugated were incapable of caring for themselves or steering their own societies, and that they were 'doing them a favour' by taking control. Were they wrong to believe this? Absolutely. 100%. But they did believe it.
It is not the same situation, but it is the same form of logic used by people who think that women need to be looked after because they aren't as capable of protecting themselves. It is often meant kindly, but it is still wrong.
Harry IS sexist, precisely because he deals with strong tough women like Murphy, and yet continues to believe that he needs to protect them -- a man who was not sexist would recognise the capabilities of the strong women he's working with and wouldn't feel the need to treat them as more delicate.
And I'm fine with that. Flawed protagonists are a-okay. What I'm not fine with is the idea that we're supposed to go 'Aww, shucks, he means it nicely' and therefore dismiss it. Butcher seems to think it's an endearing quirk. I feel sad that we still live in an age where any form of sexism is interpreted as endearing.
That said, I'm not trying to talk anyone into hating the books. Heck, I don't hate them. :) They're a fun, if fluffy read. It's just that the flaws that some people either choose to overlook because they're having fun with the books anyway, or don't feel are flaws, I choose to call into the open. I'm quite okay with being in the minority -- I like The Magicians, after all! ;)
No, it's a matter of record that many people believed that the peoples they subjugated were incapable of caring for themselves or steering their own societies, and that they were 'doing them a favour' by taking control. Were they wrong to believe this? Absolutely. 100%. But they did believe it.
It is not the same situation, but it is the same form of logic used by people who think that women need to be looked after because they aren't as capable of protecting themselves. It is often meant kindly, but it is still wrong.
Harry IS sexist, precisely because he deals with strong tough women like Murphy, and yet continues to believe that he needs to protect them -- a man who was not sexist would recognise the capabilities of the strong women he's working with and wouldn't feel the need to treat them as more delicate.
And I'm fine with that. Flawed protagonists are a-okay. What I'm not fine with is the idea that we're supposed to go 'Aww, shucks, he means it nicely' and therefore dismiss it. Butcher seems to think it's an endearing quirk. I feel sad that we still live in an age where any form of sexism is interpreted as endearing.
That said, I'm not trying to talk anyone into hating the books. Heck, I don't hate them. :) They're a fun, if fluffy read. It's just that the flaws that some people either choose to overlook because they're having fun with the books anyway, or don't feel are flaws, I choose to call into the open. I'm quite okay with being in the minority -- I like The Magicians, after all! ;)
I'm reading The Long Walk and it's pretty great so far. After that, I'll be attempting The Daedalus Incident despite the cover having the texture of something that's been splattered with motor oil and rolled in dust bunnies.
Dan wrote: "I'm reading The Long Walk and it's pretty great so far. After that, I'll be attempting The Daedalus Incident despite the cover having the texture of something that's be..."
I normally keep track of Night Shade releases but somehow I missed The Daedalus Incident, and it sounds really good! Will be interested to see what you think.
I normally keep track of Night Shade releases but somehow I missed The Daedalus Incident, and it sounds really good! Will be interested to see what you think.
Dan wrote: "I'm reading The Long Walk and it's pretty great so far. After that, I'll be attempting The Daedalus Incident despite the cover having the texture of something that's be..."Why is the texture like that? By design?
Look...we can stay friends. I'm just not going to argue this again. Harry knows very well that Murphy can kick his butt and he's stated that she's faced as much nastiness as some combat wizards. Wanting to protect someone is not condescension. It's simply emotion. Harry jokes about his old fashioned inclinations. I've see this argument over and over. if it's the way you feel, fine. But it's perception. Am I a sexist if I open the door of a car or a restaurant for a woman if we go out to dinner? I mean am I implying she can't open the door for herself?
As noted I'll never convince you but Harry does not want to "subjugate" women "for their own good". He's doesn't want to subjugate anyone.
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Wanting to protect someone is not condescension. It's simply emotion."
It is when the reason you want to protect them is because they are female. If you're equally protective of men and women, then yes, it's emotion. If you're more protective of women than of men, it's sexism. Harry makes it clear which side of the fence he falls on, and it ain't the former.
I can agree to disagree -- I didn't mention this expecting everyone to agree with me, but because, like the (valid, even if I don't agree with them) criticisms of The Magicians I feel it is worth discussing -- but you're right, I'm not going to agree. I think that airing the troublesome assumptions made in popular media regarding things like gender, race and sexuality is one of the awesome things about the internet, especially when it gives voice to women, racial minorities and people on the queer spectrum who are directly affected by these issues.
But of course that doesn't mean no one can enjoy any popular media which contains elements that are troubling to some! :) It just means it's good to talk about it.
(It's good to talk... now I sound like a BT commercial.)
It is when the reason you want to protect them is because they are female. If you're equally protective of men and women, then yes, it's emotion. If you're more protective of women than of men, it's sexism. Harry makes it clear which side of the fence he falls on, and it ain't the former.
I can agree to disagree -- I didn't mention this expecting everyone to agree with me, but because, like the (valid, even if I don't agree with them) criticisms of The Magicians I feel it is worth discussing -- but you're right, I'm not going to agree. I think that airing the troublesome assumptions made in popular media regarding things like gender, race and sexuality is one of the awesome things about the internet, especially when it gives voice to women, racial minorities and people on the queer spectrum who are directly affected by these issues.
But of course that doesn't mean no one can enjoy any popular media which contains elements that are troubling to some! :) It just means it's good to talk about it.
(It's good to talk... now I sound like a BT commercial.)
Felina wrote: "Dan wrote: "I'm reading The Long Walk and it's pretty great so far. After that, I'll be attempting The Daedalus Incident despite the cover having the texture of somethi..."The cover has a really off-putting texture for some reason. It must be the kind of paper they used.
In many cases it's simply "nurture" and as I said culture.I was in high school on the '60s and many of my friends were "rabid feminists". There was an illustration used about manners vs. condensation.
An older professor opens a door for a young woman and she looks at him and hostilely asks, "I suppose you did that because you think I'm a lady?"
"Oh no" he replies. "I did it because I'm a gentleman".
Being considerate does not mean wishing to take away someone's rights. Still if it effects you that way just tell the person not to hold the chair or whatever.
Anyway, yes we can "agree to disagree".
Dan wrote: "Felina wrote: "Dan wrote: "I'm reading The Long Walk and it's pretty great so far. After that, I'll be attempting The Daedalus Incident despite the cover having the tex..."Bizarre. Now I want to drive to Barnes and touch it.
Dan wrote: "The cover has a really off-putting texture for some reason. It must be the kind of paper they used."Oh god... THOSE. *shudder*
Colleen wrote: "I am so going to get Becky and Becca confused..."....and just to mess with you, I invited another Becca. lol
Titania wrote: "If you're equally protective of men and women, then yes, it's emotion."I'd argue that he is. Throughout the series, he tries his best to protect everyone that he cares about, not just women, and the guys don't appreciate it any more than the women do, considering that two of the examples I'm thinking of are a vampire and a werewolf. A werewolf pack, if memory serves.
But I will also agree that Harry does have "old fashioned" opinions about how to treat women, and that is different than how he treats men. So.. I can see where you're coming from, T, but it just doesn't strike me the same way it does you.
Becky wrote: "So.. I can see where you're coming from, T, but it just doesn't strike me the same way it does you."
That's cool. :) I appreciate that my opinions lean to the radical end of the spectrum, and I definitely don't expect everyone to agree with them. I'm more than content if people just think about them.
And y'know, it is a series I'll probably catch up with at some point. I'll be gnashing my teeth in places but I do remember it bothering me less in later books. Whether that's because the character evolved in the way he related to others or just because I learned to tune it out, I couldn't say at this point.
That's cool. :) I appreciate that my opinions lean to the radical end of the spectrum, and I definitely don't expect everyone to agree with them. I'm more than content if people just think about them.
And y'know, it is a series I'll probably catch up with at some point. I'll be gnashing my teeth in places but I do remember it bothering me less in later books. Whether that's because the character evolved in the way he related to others or just because I learned to tune it out, I couldn't say at this point.
Mike pulls out chair for Titania....realizes his mistake and quickly shoves it back in and goes to beverage table.Anybody want anything to drink.....?
Well, you know, it's funny... this discussion is so relevant to my day today. First, this morning I read a little more of The Peerless Four (which is... slooooow... Thankfully it's also short.), and the chapter I read was a "reproduction" of an opinion piece in a newspaper, about the 4 women who will be competing, and it was extremely sexist. EXTREMELY. It commented on how man-like the one girl is, and how "pretty" the other girl is, but she'd better turn back from her athletic inclinations now, and pursue proper lady things, like attracting a husband, lest she become mannish too. And then there was commentary about how the men must be protected from the women who want to take over their sporting events... And then there was a slippery slope argument thrown in for good measure. Real appealing stuff, yanno? So your comments about the sexism-as-protectiveness do make sense to me, considering that I just read that this morning, but the feel of the men behind the behavior (meaning the reporter vs Dresden) couldn't be more different.
And then, I couldn't help but think of this discussion while watching my friend as Mary in It's A Wonderful Life in a local adaptation. In the play, all of the stuff about her college education and work is removed (though George's college aspirations are mentioned eleventybillion times), and her only desire is to be married to George. She has no identity of her own aside from George's wife, and George's kids' mother. The change really bugged me. :(
Becky wrote: "Well, you know, it's funny... this discussion is so relevant to my day today. First, this morning I read a little more of The Peerless Four (which is... slooooow... Thankfully it's also short.), an..."
I've read some things in supposedly liberal newspapers that have made steam come out of my ears. I'm not one for staying quiet (*cough* as y'all have probably noticed), but sometimes it gets so pervasive that I just have to take a deep breath and walk away, and I so quickly reach that point with the media these days.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend's play. :( Somehow, people actively removing women with agency from a work of fiction frustrates me more than neglecting to include them in the first place. You can put one down to forgetfulness borne of overexposure to damaging norms, but the other is just so... deliberate.
I've read some things in supposedly liberal newspapers that have made steam come out of my ears. I'm not one for staying quiet (*cough* as y'all have probably noticed), but sometimes it gets so pervasive that I just have to take a deep breath and walk away, and I so quickly reach that point with the media these days.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend's play. :( Somehow, people actively removing women with agency from a work of fiction frustrates me more than neglecting to include them in the first place. You can put one down to forgetfulness borne of overexposure to damaging norms, but the other is just so... deliberate.
Titania - I agree with you. I do think Harry's chivalry crosses into sexism, and that he feels more the need to protect the women because they're women.But I don't agree that it's not addressed. I think Murphy and Molly, especially, call him on it and that he does get better about it as the series progresses. I also think that it didn't bother me as much as it did you, but I was too busy being annoyed wit Murphy in the first few books being all 'I need you to help me on this weird case... What is the B.S. you're doing? I'm going to randomly blame you for things!'
And, sure, holding a door for someone can be fine. But it often annoys me when I'm on the elevator at work and the men have to be weird about letting you on or off first - especially if they're closer.
Like, say we're all waiting for an elevator, and one opens that's close to a guy. Often they'll hang back and wave me on. But I'm further away from the door, and have a set amount of time before the door closes, so I end up having to rush to catch the door because of this asshats chivalry.
I mean, manners are all well and good, but at this point your manners are being illogical and causing inconvenience. There's really no reason why I have to be the first person on, just 'cause I'm a chick.
Anyway, back to Dresden, I agree with this: "They don't really stand out enough from other urban fantasy series for me to quite understand the worship they attract, though."
But, then, I rarely understand the worship most books receive, so there is that...
Colleen wrote: "I was too busy being annoyed with Murphy in the first few books being all 'I need you to help me on this weird case... What is the B.S. you're doing? I'm going to randomly blame you for things!' ..."This!! I really disliked Murphy in the first 2 (maybe even 3) books for this very reason!
Colleen wrote: "But I don't agree that it's not addressed. I think Murphy and Molly, especially, call him on it and that he does get better about it as the series progresses. I also think that it didn't bother me as much as it did you, but I was too busy being annoyed wit Murphy in the first few books being all 'I need you to help me on this weird case... What is the B.S. you're doing? I'm going to randomly blame you for things!'"
This is a fair point. I don't remember the bits where Molly calls him on it (it's been a while), but I do remember Murphy doing so. I felt she was being portrayed as unreasonable when she did so, but y'know, as you allude to, she was portrayed as unreasonable kind of a lot in the first few books.
One of the perils of a first person narrative is that other characters' potentially very valid points sometimes get lost in translation, I think.
And yeah... as a friend of mine used to say, I'm not going to kick a guy in the shin for holding the door for me, but then I hold doors for men myself if I get to them first. Having manners is good. Conspicuously only applying those manners to women, not so much.
This is a fair point. I don't remember the bits where Molly calls him on it (it's been a while), but I do remember Murphy doing so. I felt she was being portrayed as unreasonable when she did so, but y'know, as you allude to, she was portrayed as unreasonable kind of a lot in the first few books.
One of the perils of a first person narrative is that other characters' potentially very valid points sometimes get lost in translation, I think.
And yeah... as a friend of mine used to say, I'm not going to kick a guy in the shin for holding the door for me, but then I hold doors for men myself if I get to them first. Having manners is good. Conspicuously only applying those manners to women, not so much.
I agree about Murphy in the first 2-3 books. There was one (#2 maybe?) where she actually arrests him, and I was like "Uhh, didn't you go to him for his help?"Baffling. But I like her now.
Titania wrote: "And yeah... as a friend of mine used to say, I'm not going to kick a guy in the shin for holding the door for me, but then I hold doors for men myself if I get to them first. Having manners is good. Conspicuously only applying those manners to women, not so much. "Exactly.
Becky wrote: "I agree about Murphy in the first 2-3 books. There was one (#2 maybe?) where she actually arrests him, and I was like "Uhh, didn't you go to him for his help?"Baffling. But I like her now."
It was book two.. I remember because I fuming at her during that scene!
Murphy has to be introed to the "the way things are. (view spoiler)Mike hands Becky a glass of iced tea That okay or did you want something stronger?
Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Murphy has to be introed to the "the way things are. [spoilers removed] Mike hands Becky a glass of iced tea That okay or did you want something stronger?"If its sweetened and she doesn't want it, I'll take it.. Thank You. :)
Lightly sweetened...but I can get you one with more sugar. We've got a nice bar here.
Dan wrote: "I'm reading The Long Walk and it's pretty great so far. After that, I'll be attempting The Daedalus Incident despite the cover having the texture of something that's be..."I LOVE The Long Walk! As crazy as it sounds, its actually my favorite of his. (that I've read so far, anyway)
Think I'm going to "retry" Gunmetal Magic. Couldn't get into it at all the first time, but library has an audio. I'll give it a shot.
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Flights of Fantasy
Books mentioned in this topic
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The Scarlet Pimpernel (other topics)
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Authors mentioned in this topic
Michael Buckley (other topics)Brandon Sanderson (other topics)
M. Clifford (other topics)
Robert McCammon (other topics)
Elizabeth Bear (other topics)
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And I hated every single character. ..."