The Hobbit, or There and Back Again The Hobbit, or There and Back Again discussion


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Question about Thorin please help. WARNING: SPOILERS!!!!!!!

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message 1: by Michael (last edited Nov 17, 2013 04:37PM) (new) - added it

Michael Hi, I was on imdb and some utter asshole posted this topic: Will Thorin, Fili and Kili die in the movies as they did in the books? Now I haven't read the hobbit yet and this ruined the movie for me. Is there any truth in this? I mean how could Thorin die? What the book ends and there is no king under the mountain and the whole quest and killing Smaug was for absolutely nothing!!! And in the fellowship of the ring extended edition gandalf says that Thorin gifted Bilbo with the mythril rings shirt for helping with the quest, I mean what the hell. I'm very confused could you please clear this up for me. And if this is true please tell me how he dies and what happens to erabor.


Matthew Fischer Trust the author.

The ending may or may not be what you expect, or what you would wish for - but it is excellent.

If you cannot wait for the movies to unfold - read the book.


message 3: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael If the ending is what I asked then no it is not excellent


Jackmccullough Matthew's right. Tolkien knows that there are no victories without cost or pain.


Timothy Michael I would encourage you to listen to Matthew and Jack...trust the author, keep an open mind, and most importantly, read the book. I can't promise you won't be distraught, but you will be really treating yourself to a great story and will be able to answer your questions!!!!

Good luck...and fyi I know how you feel. I'm still feeling disappointment from Thor 2...


message 6: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael Ok well why won't anyone explain the ending if it's so great, I mean I love Tolkien but I have no idea how it makes sense if Thorin dies that means there is no king under the mountain,which means the entire book was for nothing if erebor is not reclaimed and there is no king, and Thorin couldn't have given Bilbo his shirt


message 7: by Erin (last edited Nov 17, 2013 06:43PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Erin Ah, but The Hobbit prepares the way for the Lord of the Rings trilogy.

I'm sorry someone "spoiled" it for you, but perhaps it is because they said it so casually. The ending of the book is a beautiful comment on life and how we live. We all must die. Thorin's death is a wonderful way of explaining a lot of other thing's, including how he finally, at the end understands the priority of things and people. He is fortunate to find this out; a lot of people never do, and that is much much sadder than just dying, which as I said, we all must do someday. It also helps if you understand Tolkien's view of death as not a final end but a passage.
If you can put aside your own fears and read the story to learn a new way of seeing life and death you will take a lot of the pressure off of feeling that death is a mistake or a reason not to go on learning and experiencing. I hope this makes sense.


Erin PS - And who says there is not another King? The whole of the Ring Trilogy is about the ultimate triumph of goodness and love and right over evil. The Hobbit is just the very beginning!


message 9: by Rebecca (last edited Nov 17, 2013 07:23PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Rebecca Pierce I agree with Erin completely. Tolkien was a brilliant writer, his work was both beautiful and moving. His views on life and death, love and hate, and friendship and loyalty are part of what make his writing so compelling. Sometimes a well-written death is beautiful. Of course you're sad that the character is no longer going to appear in stories, but you know that death is only the beginning and that gives a certain peace and hope to what would have otherwise been a very sad thing. It makes it bittersweet instead of only bitter. And only a very talented author can do that. There is something strangely satisfying about a bittersweet ending. If you saw the Lord of the Rings movies or read the books, you should be able to understand that.


Julia Michael wrote: "Ok well why won't anyone explain the ending if it's so great, I mean I love Tolkien but I have no idea how it makes sense if Thorin dies that means there is no king under the mountain,which means t..."

No. Read the book.
Nobody on this forum could possibly do that story justice.
You only know a small fraction of the ending. I hope that nobody ruins the rest for you.


message 11: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael Telling me Thorin died ruined it for me,unless someone tells me differently the whole quest was for nothing. No one even confirmed he died.


Julia Michael wrote: "Telling me Thorin died ruined it for me,unless someone tells me differently the whole quest was for nothing. No one even confirmed he died."

(view spoiler)

Now you can either read the book, or let this go.


Julia Oh, and I suggest you read the book rather than waiting for the last two movies.

Chances are good the movie producers are going to change things around a bit to make it more dramatic.


message 14: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael Julia wrote: "Michael wrote: "Telling me Thorin died ruined it for me,unless someone tells me differently the whole quest was for nothing. No one even confirmed he died."

[spoilers removed]

Now you can eithe..."


Why the hell is everyone pressing me to read this book!?
And no I will not let this go I haven't gotten an answer to my question yet and I'm not planning on reading the book soon. Jesus, I just asked a question.


Rebecca Pierce As far as I can tell, your question has been answered. There is no reason to be rude just because you didn't like what you heard. If you don't want to read it, then don't read it. But don't respond like that just because other people enjoyed the book and thought you would too.


Julia We're pressing you to read the book, because there is nobody alive that can summarize the end without ruining it. I mean, you read 1 little comment about the end and it ruined the movies for you. You think getting MORE incomplete facts will fix that?

Read it, don't read it - that's your business. But reading the book is the only way to understand the ending.

I suppose you could also find the Cliff's Notes version.


Matthew Fischer It appears that you probably don't deserve any more time from people who are trying to answer your question in a way that doesn't further spoil an excellent story.

I assume you're just trolling us, but in case you are not:

The quest isn't about recovering the mountain for Thorin. The quest is about recovering the mountain for the dwarven people. Thorin would give his life to secure that result.

As for why everyone is telling you to read the book - because you are interested enough to ask questions, reading the book is the best way to get satisfaction, and because this is a book reading website, not a 'please tell me the ending' website. If you want a plot summary, read the wikipedia page.


Julia Matthew wrote: "It appears that you probably don't deserve any more time from people who are trying to answer your question in a way that doesn't further spoil an excellent story.

I assume you're just trolling us..."


Well stated.


Philip Ulbrich Look back at the story of how Thorin got the honorific "Oakenshield". The key to future Kings Under the Mountain is there. The ending of the story is epic; and we find that Bilbo, contrary to the Hamlet-like Frodo, is shrewd and ingenious in assessing situations.

O, yeah, Thorin dies.


Rebecca Pierce Matthew wrote: "It appears that you probably don't deserve any more time from people who are trying to answer your question in a way that doesn't further spoil an excellent story.

I assume you're just trolling us..."


I agree entirely


message 21: by Phil (new) - rated it 5 stars

Phil The quest may be about Thorin, or the dwarves in general, taking back the mountain but the book is not. The hero of the book is Bilbo, not Thorin, hence the title. Thorin is just a secondary character and his death does not ruin the story. In fact, as others have stated, it adds quite a bit.


message 22: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael Matthew wrote: "It appears that you probably don't deserve any more time from people who are trying to answer your question in a way that doesn't further spoil an excellent story.

I assume you're just trolling us..."


Wow because I ask a question about the future of the mountain,the quest and the mythril shirt I'm a troll. Real intelligent. And for you're information on goodreads forums you can ask anything you want, you must be the troll. Whatever I'm done, I'll find the answer somewhere else.


Julia Consider this: There are three movies. The 2nd one is called "The Desolation of Smaug". Think about what that means. The SECOND movie is about Smaug; what is the THIRD movie about?

The story continues after the quest. The chapters that follow the quest are totally epic. This is the part that you can't put down at 3 am despite the fact that you're completely exhausted and have to be at work at 7.

And those last chapters are the ones that hold the answers to your questions.

Nobody's answering your questions because we can't do it without ruining those epic final chapters. And, in the laws of Booklovers' Universe, that's something you just don't do.


message 24: by Michael (last edited Nov 17, 2013 09:35PM) (new) - added it

Michael Julia wrote: "Consider this: There are three movies. The 2nd one is called "The Desolation of Smaug". Think about what that means. The SECOND movie is about Smaug; what is the THIRD movie about?

The story..."


So after smaug dies the chapters that follow are so great that you can't put it down? I don't understand how answering my questions could ruin such a great ending. If the ending is indeed that great and unpredictable I'm glad, I thought smaug was the highlight of the novel


Julia I wouldn't expect you to understand... because you haven't read the book.


message 26: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael Julia wrote: "I wouldn't expect you to understand... because you haven't read the book."

Uh OK, weird being that you haven't even tried to tell me.


Rebecca Pierce What is it you think we're not telling you? You know Thorin dies,and you are clearly uninterested in reading and enjoying the book. So what else is it you want to know?


message 28: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael You know what I am done. Allow me to end this right now, I just bought The Hobbit,The lord of the rings,and the silmarillion on my kindle and I'm starting the hobbit tonight. You all got your way I'm reading the books.


Matthew Fischer Good luck with the Silmarillion. I doubt you'll like it. You certainly don't deserve to enjoy it.


message 30: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael Matthew wrote: "Good luck with the Silmarillion. I doubt you'll like it. You certainly don't deserve to enjoy it."

Very mature


Matthew Fischer I meant that in the most sincere and mature way possible. You really don't deserve to enjoy the Silmarillion based on your comments. I don't mean that punitively, I just mean it sincerely.

I dare you to like it.


message 32: by Michael (new) - added it

Michael Uh....Ok well I love all the middle earth movies so I'm sure I'll love the silmarillion


message 33: by Erin (new) - rated it 5 stars

Erin Uh, come on guys. Michael did buy the books and now he's reading them. Was it on this list that I posted that I only read The Hobbit after being forced to by my senior Lit teacher? I had no clue how wonderful they were, but he did and had patience with me. And now I've been reading them for over 50 years! (yeah, I'm olde!)
And the Silmarillion is difficult. I think maybe because it is in a completely different style and is not as easily readable as are The Hobbit and LOTR. But the stories in it are great. Actually now that I am in Tolkien mode I found a site that lists far more of Tolkien's works than I have read. I have read some of his short stories, including, years ago, a little book that had 3 of them in it, "Tom Bombadill", "Farmer Giles of Ham" and "Leaf, by Niggle" which were charming. In some insane moment of clearing out I got rid of all my Tolkien books (thinking that they were classics and I could always get them from the library, not remembering that at 11:00 at night if you want to read a book, having your own copy is ideal:) so I'm gradually replacing them, but this time on Kindle, so I can adjust the print and read them easily;)
So gently, gently folks. Let's encourage a new generation of readers. Remember Bilbo and how no one appreciated him for a long time! Now there was an old fuddy duddy stick at home...until he went on his Adventure!


message 34: by Ruth (new) - rated it 4 stars

Ruth Chatlien Michael, did you watch the Lord of the Rings movies? If you did, think about what happens to Frodo. All he wanted was to save the Shire and go back home and live happily without trouble. I won't tell you what did happen in case you haven't seen it / read it because I won't spoil it, but it isn't exactly what he (or what I as a reader) hoped for. But it's the right ending. How can that be? Well, Tolkien fought in World War I. Do you know much about that war? It was a brutal, horrible waste of human life, and Tolkien lost many, many of his comrades. It affected him deeply for life, and he took away the lesson that fighting in an important cause often brings about nearly unbearable losses even when victory is achieved. And he embedded that understanding in both The Hobbit and the Lord of the Rings. Does that help you to understand how the ending could be the right one even if it wasn't the one you thought you were rooting for?


message 35: by Erin (last edited Dec 10, 2013 12:42PM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Erin Ruth wrote: "Michael, did you watch the Lord of the Rings movies? If you did, think about what happens to Frodo. All he wanted was to save the Shire and go back home and live happily without trouble. I won't te..."

Very well said.


Jeanie I hope your reading of Tolkien is going well and that you will report your impressions here.

As for the Silmarilion, Even though it is first in the Middle Earth chronology, I hope you didn't start there... it's tough sledding for even a diehard Tolkien fan. It's worth thetrouble to experience the full world, but it is nothing like The Hobbit or even LotR in plot and characters. In a very real way, it is Middle Earth's version of The Old Testament. While itmay be rewarding, that's not an easy read either.


message 37: by Hans (new) - rated it 3 stars

Hans I sincerely hope that the kid discovers the joy of reading.


Jamie Martinez Michael wrote: "Hi, I was on imdb and some utter asshole posted this topic: Will Thorin, Fili and Kili die in the movies as they did in the books? Now I haven't read the hobbit yet and this ruined the movie for me..."

Reading the book won't exactly help either. The movies aren't exactly telling the story of Tolkien anymore. You'll have to wait for Peter Jackson's version of what will happen.


Lkrumwiede I haven't seen the second movie, but my son, whom I read The Hobbit when he was 4, has enjoyed both the book and the movie. There are some differences, so we really don't know how it will end. I do recommend reading the book, though.


Jeroen Van den biggelaar I really liked the book, but i'm hoping our good friend Peter Jackson does the right thing.

***spoilers about the movie(2) and book***

When I saw the face of thranduil melt of during the scene when thorin spoke to him about dragons and not helping him and his people, I thought that Jackson is giving the Elves a reason to in the first place, not help the dwarves, and later go to the misty mountains to claim the gold.
While in the books it was just plain greed of the Elves.

I hope he doesn't alter the story and motivations to much and sticks to the original story.

Also I hope that the fili and tauriel part doens't get a real big role in the story progression.and what the hell is legolas doing lol.


message 41: by Jeroen (last edited Dec 17, 2013 01:09AM) (new) - rated it 4 stars

Jeroen Van den biggelaar But Michael, to satisfy your needs:

In the books it comes down to this:

*SPOILERS*
Bard kills the dragon after he destroys half of his town. He simply shoots an arrow at his missing scale in the book and not that "special weapon arrow" from the movies.

After the dragon is slain thorin and his friends dont know it yet, but then the elves come to claim the gold from the mountain. Thorin and his friend block the entrance and call for help from the dwarves in the iron hills. They come and as soon the elves and dwarves are about to fight, A bigg ass lot of orcs/goblins (in the book there is no diffrence) come and attack. In the war between the now allied dwarves/elves and orcs Thorin, fili and kili are killed.

BUT! this is just how i remeber the book (it has been a while ago). And to really get the essence of the story and the meaning of it, you MUST read the book!


Lkrumwiede As to the comment that there is no king under the mountain without thorin, the appendices to the lord of the rings states SPOILER HERE

Not long after most of durin's folk abandoned the grey mountains, gror, dain's son, went away with many followers to the iron hills; but thror, dain's heir, with borin his father's brother and the remainder of the people returned to erebor.


message 43: by F.F. (new) - rated it 5 stars

F.F. McCulligan Here's my blog post called J.R.R. Tokien did not write the hobbit in 3d

It summarizes my thoughts on Jackson's treatment of the tale with (as accurate as I could muster off the top of my head) a comparison between the first installment of the movie trilogy and the book. enjoy! Also there's a great picture of Tokien on the blog post. I might enjoy a pipeful myself...


message 44: by Mari (new) - rated it 4 stars

Mari Matthew wrote: "Trust the author.

The ending may or may not be what you expect, or what you would wish for - but it is excellent.

If you cannot wait for the movies to unfold - read the book."

What makes you think that Jackson won't change the ending to a certain degree. I think he should let Killi live in the movie, actually. He is a completely different character. Much more charismatic. He should let Thorin die. Everyone hates him. Of course he was pretty awful in the books too..


message 45: by Jeffrey (new)

Jeffrey Earnshaw the Silmarillion if ANYONE can just get through that well, that's something..if they like it , that's another thing altogether!!!


Sparrowlicious Imho about the ending of The Hobbit:
(SPOILER FOR THE BOOK BTW)
I think it wasn't so great that Bilbo didn't see any of the fighting. I mean, he gets knocked out and when he comes to everything is already over and yeah.
Sure, Bilbo isn't very useful in a fight but still...! Removing his POV felt sort of like something is missing. Hmm.


Space I loved the books (for 30+ years), and the movies.


message 48: by Rick (new) - rated it 5 stars

Rick Patterson Michael wrote: "Julia wrote: "Michael wrote: "Telling me Thorin died ruined it for me,unless someone tells me differently the whole quest was for nothing. No one even confirmed he died."

[spoilers removed]

Now..."

The book is maybe 200 pages long. If you don't have the focus or patience to get through it, then why are you on a goodREADS site? Yes, you just asked a question, but it is a petulant one that assumes your ethos should apply to everyone else. When you grow up, you will realize that there was this guy named Copernicus who figured out that the world does not revolve around what you think is good or bad.


Donna Davis Thorin goes out a hero. It is sad enough to make even middle schoolers weep.


message 50: by Sharon (last edited Jan 16, 2014 09:15AM) (new) - rated it 5 stars

Sharon Michael wrote: "Telling me Thorin died ruined it for me,unless someone tells me differently the whole quest was for nothing. No one even confirmed he died."

Gah. I have skimmed through most of these comments and I can't understand why people are getting so hot. This isn't a film discussion board, as someone pointed out, and yes, Thorin's immediate family line is killed in the book. For good reason. I am praying that PJ didn't change the story and Thorin's character as badly as he did with LOTR and Aragorn, or his even worse altering of Faramir, but we'll have to wait and see for that.

In the book, (view spoiler)

You need to remember that the protagonist in the story is BILBO, not Thorin, however much you may like him. I read this book for the first time when I was 12 years old---that was 40 years ago. Kili and Fili dying was sad, but didn't really upset me because they were pretty minor characters in the book. I was devastated by Thorin's demise though, until my parents (both huge fans of the series) helped me to look at the message the book was trying to convey. Tolkien was writing in a time period where a man's true character and his honor was the factor which would determine his fate. Thorin failed the test, so he could not be rewarded.


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