Allegiant
discussion
The ending we need to seriously break it down
**SPOILER** (just in case, lol)I think it's one of the flaws with the plot that Tris dies. Or at least in that way. If she's super divergent, logically, the head scientist would do everything in his power to not kill her. He could have been armed with anything else to stop her rather than shoot her multiple times. Strong tranquilizer gun, stun gun, Something!
But I think the implication with Tobias is that he is able to move on. It took him so long (2 years, was it?) to be able to spread her ashes, and I think that scene is sort of them saying he found closure. Not that he's fine and dandy at that point, but that he'll be okay.
As for him ever loving again, I'd say it's possible. Probable even, but that would be an entirely different story.
I think I'd kind of like to see him and Christina get together. Just cuz they're the only ones who will ever really understand each other.
I think the way she died was an absolute sucker punch to all the fans out there. It definitely was to me-- She survived the 'death serum' and then dies anyway a few minutes later. Dam Roth, you got us all good.
I think she was trying to show that Tris was willing to give her life when she knew for sure that's what it would take. The death serum was always a maybe, so she was basically playing Russian Roulette, volunteering for that part. But she knew that if she went ahead with the gun pointed at her, she would absolutely die. But I still think it's a flaw though.
I personally think her death was unnecessary, and it was just a plot point to make the story realistic when it really wasn't needed. I also feel like the whole conflict between the GD's and GP's wasn't resolved just because one city doesn't decide to live that way anymore. What about the rest of the country, or the world? No doubt that they would eventually destroy the peace that they found in Chicago, and it annoyed me that that was never acknowledged. After all, they only wiped the memories of the people working at the bureau, not their superiors. I wish that Tris had never died, I was so disappointed with that aspect of the ending and believe it is a massive flaw within the book.
you have to think about it from a few different angles though. while i don't think that i agree that she needed to die, i think that there was a reason for it- i mean throughout the whole 2nd and 3rd book, we were told that she was being reckless at times. not just dauntless but reckless. and while she had motives for what she did at the end, choosing to take action when her brother wasn't the right one to do it - i think that it was dumb...but also a bit of closure. don't get me wrong though - i think that i would have much preferred to see a happy ending - i think that she and tobias went through enough to get to a happy place that they deserved to be happy and that never happened for them. i think that it wasn't necessary for him to suffer in his own way at the end - having to live on without her even if he didn't remember it all.
i kind of wish that we got to see more of the other 'encampments' that were used as tests and even seen the other parts of hte world that were outside of walls. i think that Ms. Roth would have done a great job with giving us that nice picture that wasn't just chicago - but it was all done for a purpose i suppose.
Loredana wrote: "I personally think her death was unnecessary, and it was just a plot point to make the story realistic when it really wasn't needed. I also feel like the whole conflict between the GD's and GP's wa..."I really must agree. Roth could have done something similar to Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson double series. She may have won a small battle but Tris was needed to win the war. The story is only half finished. Most authors would know that you don't introduce a whole new conflict in the last book of a trilogy unless you are going to start a new series.
Hunter wrote: "I really must agree. Roth could have done something similar to Rick Riordan's Percy Jackson double series. She may have won a small battle but Tris was needed to win the war. The story is only half finished...."I think that the GD / GP conflict was a good one to introduce. I also think that it could have been edited down. I wish that the gang of characters that travelled outside the fence got to experience it and then go back into Chicago to take what they learned and apply it to what was happening inside the fence. All this would be in the hope that the huge conflict going on inside the fence would come to a better and less-rushed resolution.
I thought the new GD/GP conflict was the biggest misstep and what contributed to making me feel like my Kindle must have downloaded the wrong book, because the plot just went off a million miles away from what it was in the first two books to the point that it didn't even feel like the same series.
Loredana wrote: "I personally think her death was unnecessary, and it was just a plot point to make the story realistic when it really wasn't needed. I also feel like the whole conflict between the GD's and GP's wa..."I'm still not sure what was going on in the rest of the world anyway. Which is another hole in the story, if you ask me.
I mean, are they in the same boat as they are in America? If not, wouldn't someone have taken over by now?
But as far as what happens with the experiments in America, I think the implication is that they're ending.
They said somewhere that they were basically trying to justify the usefulness of the experiments at the point when Tris and Four and the others come outside the fence. They said something like one more big failure and the government was going to shut them down.
While Chicago turning out the way it did wasn't exactly a failure from our perspective, it was from the scientist's.
Especially since at that point, Chicago was the most, or one of the most successful experiments they ever got going.
So I think what we see in Chicago was the beginning of the trend in the rest of the country.
Lauren wrote: "I thought the new GD/GP conflict was the biggest misstep and what contributed to making me feel like my Kindle must have downloaded the wrong book, because the plot just went off a million miles aw..."I agree. Allegiant felt like an entirely different story and really sent the series down hill.
Kristen wrote: "Loredana wrote: "I personally think her death was unnecessary, and it was just a plot point to make the story realistic when it really wasn't needed. I also feel like the whole conflict between the..."They didn't really imply that. All we got was an info dump about how the other remaining experiments were still going on as is. I didn't see any hint that anyone was going to start reviewing their necessity or consider shutting them down, etc. The only thing that changed was Chicago, and that was easy because it was a mess and the government had been wanting to shut them down anyway. GD/GP relations were better in the Chicago area, but that's all. That's all it did.
The problem was not her unnecessary death but the way she died. Pointless...I'm very disappointed.
Lauren wrote: " I didn't see any hint that anyone was going to start reviewing their necessity or consider shutting them down, etc"Pg 375-76
"The experiments are already in danger of being shut down if we cannot prove to our superiors that we are capable of controlling them. Another revolution in Chicago would only cement their belief that this endeavor has outlived its usefulness-something we cannot allow to happen if we want to continue to fight genetic damage."
And yet in the aftermath we hear nothing about any of the other experiments being shut down except Chicago's, no indication that the government did or would make good on their threat.The entire plotline, bottom line, is stupid and nonsensical. It is kind of amusing that it's yet another revolution that would make the Powers That Be think that their endeavor has outlived its usefulness. I would think the 200 years of nothing would be the bigger clue that they're wasting their time.
I think that there are so many other ways to show Tris's true character I don't care how poetic her death was supposed to be and how deep the meaning I thought it was stupid and pointless who kills their main character? That's like if Suzanne Collins killed Katniss its kind of like how are people supposed to enjoy the movie and the previous books when you know that she and Four won't end up together and that she died I just really hope Veronica comes to her sense and decides to expand on the series just one book one more book and I would be completely and totally fine just one book to show that Tris and Four after ending had a somewhat normal quiet peaceful life after everything Tris's death was simply unfair there is so much I can say but honestly I don't have the patience to explain
I think she just wanted to be able to start a stupid new trend and say I killed my main character and that she was the first person to kill off their main character the character that made them the author they are it just isn't fair I think it was cheap shot at a publicity stunt that hit below the belt
I genuinely believe Veronica approached this from a literary standpoint, that she wasn't just trying to be shocking. I believe she believes what she's saying. She's young and inexperienced in the business. She has yet to figure out the balance between telling the story you want and giving the audience what they want. Because the audience is the consumer, and the book is the product, and why would you sell a product that nobody wants?
Loredana wrote: "I also feel like the whole conflict between the GD's and GP's wasn't resolved just because one city doesn't decide to live that way anymore. What about the rest of the country, or the world?"The country's policies on GP/GD flow from the research of the Bureau of Genetic Welfare. After the memory reset, the bureau reports to the government that people are complex and not defined by their genes.
The country's policies are apparently based on the reports from the Bureau's research in the experiments, but the Bureau isn't in charge. The government doesn't work for the Bureau; the Bureau works for the government. And remember, the people at this place were a part of the Bureau but they were not THE Bureau. They were just the sector in charge of the Chicago experiment. The memory reset allowed the gang (apparently they're a gang now) to "reeducate" the people there, at this one place, to think that GD oppression is bad and that all humans are equal, and they should go forth with their work with that mindset. The government would not change their position just because one building of employees suddenly woke up with a new attitude. They allowed the Chicago experiment to be shut down because that's what they'd be clamoring to do anyway. I didn't see anything to suggest that the national position was changing.
Lauren wrote: "And yet in the aftermath we hear nothing about any of the other experiments being shut down except Chicago's, no indication that the government did or would make good on their threat.The entire p..."
Don't get me wrong. I think this last book was full of holes too, but I do think there's some indication about the rest of the country from what we see at the very end in Chicago.
David said the experimentS were in jeopardy of being shut down, so it's not just Chicago that's in danger of losing funding or whatever.
Also, at another point in the book, they said that alot of the other experiments fell apart in other ways. I think one or two had been disbanded already and a few others were getting close like they were in Chicago. By the way they were so determined to make Chicago work, I got the impression that it would be the last straw that would make the government give up on the idea altogether.
The biggest thing that suggests to me that things have actually changed when we last see them in Chicago is the way they're living. People are allowed to do what they want, go where they want, live where they want, and work where they want.
Again, I think this particular thing leads to some flaws in the story, but we know that the people in the Fringe (and other areas like it) are living outside of government control(and pretty miserably), but the rest of the country is living in almost tyrannical circumstances - rationed food, electricity, etc.
So, if Chicago is left alone to flourish and run itself, that suggests to me that most of the country has shifted since it doesn't fit in to any of the established categories of experiment, government run city or Fringe-type area. And don't forget, it's only been a short amount of time, at that point, so you wouldn't necessarily see a huge change everywhere yet. Not to mention, it's from Four's POV and all he's really concerned about right now is what they're doing and taking care of Tris' ashes.
I would have liked a little more detail about all that too, but I think the bigger problem with the story is the whole foundation of the experiments and by extension the entire premise of the story. The way Roth presented the whole thing makes the likelihood that the Chicago experiment would still be around - or that the GD idea would even be relevant anymore - pretty slim.
I think my pasta strainer has fewer holes than this story.
Lol, yeah. I have that feeling too.
I think it was really good. Yes there were quite a few flaws and loopholes- but... i find it hard to explain. I was just really- I don't know; inspired?- by Veronica Roth's courageous decision. Basically every book nowadays ends happily: the girl gets the guy and vice versa, the bad guys are defeated, everyone lives happily ever after, etc etc. I just think it was such an amazing thing to do, to let us know that life is not all sunshine, rainbows and butterflies. I really enjoyed Allegiant, even if I cried when Tris died.People die in wars and fights all the time, if not everyday. It is estimated that 105 people die a minute.
And yeah, I know this is fiction, and dystopia and all that, but do you think we would truly enjoy books as much as we do if we couldn't relate to the characters?
Here was my review, by the way-
https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...
The book was great with only one set back in my opinion. The death of a main character is not uncommon in literature, but in today's world? After three books! She survived all of that just to be taken out with a gun the night before the rest of their lives! And then Tobias is just left there... It doesn't say enough about what happens to him. Uriah's death was one thing, but Tris dying just made me very upset. It's like why did I read all of that hoping on how much Tris put into surviving and then death...
I didn't need a happy ending, I just wanted a satisfying ending that made sense. It's fine if the story shows that life is not sunshine and rainbows, but there has to be a point to the story for having this message. But you can't have a sad ending just for the sake of a sad ending. And no matter what Veronica says, you can't kill off a main character for no reason other than to prove a point about what selflessness means.
What I hated is that it went I am brave and will save my bro. YAY
I might die NOO
I take the serum NOO
I survive YAY
Its looking good. Nothing can stop me YAY
Gets shot WTF
Sees mom peticly and stupidly dies as pushing button WFTWFTWFT
RAGE QUIT
Poetically*
Callie wrote: "I feel that it's very disappointing that Tris died because she was shot. I felt that she was on top of the world because she survived the death serum, when it was guaranteed that it could kill anyo..."YES! OMG I AM SO GLAD I WASN'T THE ONLY ONE THAT THOUGHT THAT!
this book's wrapped up so well with a lovely wrapper and a golden string.well done.but untie the ribbon,inside it there is only pain,grief and irrevocable loss.no amount of beautification can assuage the hurt and the following misery.
there will never be another Tris.she was the best.
Wow that was deep. I understand that wholeheartedly.
The ending to this book was horrible. I mean. The main character dies and then her boyfriend never gets over her death. I mean seriously! Then the whole middle of this book Tobias is acting really stupid. Then the beggining has no details. This book hurt the series so much
Kristen wrote: "**SPOILER** (just in case, lol)I think it's one of the flaws with the plot that Tris dies. Or at least in that way. If she's super divergent, logically, the head scientist would do everything in..."
Oh he'll no Tobias and Christina I spit at the thought.
I read like 5 posts and have decided that it's necessary that I say something.I think that Veronica Roth had something with the society.
Did she NEED to make an "outside the fence" area? She could have found some other meaning for Divergent. She could have simply made the point that people are so much more than one trait, that we're round characters. So WHY explore outside the fence, create a [cough cough] TERRIBLE excuse for a plot - genetic stuff that none of the readers really cared about - and then kill off any characters that gave off the light of hope?
Roth made some serious mistakes, I do believe. SHE SHOULD HAVE JUST STUCK TO WHAT WAS GOOD!
This is the problem when people try to write trilogies now. They have to stretch out the stories, ruin the characters [who they've already over-developed - any details NOT in the other books are either completely irrelevant or change the character compeltely], and create some plot that just gives the readers a final taste of the characters, who I've just declared already ruined.
WHY?????
[As you can see, I'm still bitter towards Roth. I'm in mourning for Uriah and Tris.]
The ONLY good thing from Allegiant - FOUR IS NOW SINGLE! But now he's emotionally unstable. No fun :(
Callie wrote: "I feel that it's very disappointing that Tris died because she was shot. I felt that she was on top of the world because she survived the death serum, when it was guaranteed that it could kill anyo..."right? she survives serums, planned executions, daredevil jumps, murder attempts...
AND THEN SHE IS TAKEN DOWN BY THREE MEASLY BULLETS! WHAT THE HECK!
Callie wrote: "I feel that it's very disappointing that Tris died because she was shot. I felt that she was on top of the world because she survived the death serum, when it was guaranteed that it could kill anyo..."Did they? People are divided on that point but VR said in an interview alluding that they ere going to take it to that level you know but the scene was vague I don't think she VR has ever been comfortable with that stuff she said she could even watch Shai and Theo kiss she felt uncomfortable and wouldn't be present for those shots. She can kill with no mercy but has problems with intimacy? Sounds like someone I read about. Someone who I use to know.
Yeah, it's weird how this grown woman -- a married woman -- is so skittish about talking/writing about intimacy.
Lauren wrote: "Yeah, it's weird how this grown woman -- a married woman -- is so skittish about talking/writing about intimacy."Yeah I guess Tris's intimacy problems were not her own.
I'm torn in two about the ending. While I am of the firm belief that you should never ever kill off a central character that your audience has followed faithfully right from the beginning and has grown to love and root for, in some strange way Tris' death makes sense with the underlying themes and I was not as shocked or surprised as I usually would be at something like this. Divergent was all about Tris discovering her bravery and selflessness. Insurgent dealt with her struggles to understand what her duty was--to her dead parents, to her friends, to her society, to her faction/divergence--and it also closely looked at the idea of what true sacrifice really was and why you would make a sacrifice, and the idea of death vs life. In a way, you could really see it coming, the way she died, as she took everything she had learned and who she had become since the beginning of the series and acted on it in a meaningful way that was true to herself, and it really showed the kind of strong person that Tris had turned into--someone who knows what it means to be brave and selfless, to be selfless enough to face certain death by taking her brother's place, and to be brave enough to do it after she decided at the end of Insurgent that she wanted to live. Tris' death is the very definition of the themes of sacrifice, bravery, and selflessness she struggled to understand since Divergent, and it is a very fitting ending in a thematic way. I personally found Uriah's death a lot more shocking and senseless, as there was no purpose behind it whatsoever.
I won't deny that I would have preferred a happy ending with Tris and Tobias, but I kind of think Tris lost some of her character and personality in Allegiant--what I mean is, Tris sort of faded into the shadows. I could imagine everyone else's future, I guess because their personalities were so well known, but for some reason I could not imagine what Tris would do post-Allegiant, I could not really imagine a role for her. I am not sure how to explain this but it seemed like Tobias and Christina and every one else had more forceful personalities and made most of the big moves/decisions. It seemed like Tris was less of a leader and more of an equal than in previous books, and less of the strong, determined, purposeful person we got to know during Divergent...except at her end of course. I'm still not explaining it right but maybe some others felt something similar.
I understand what you mean. I think it has alot to do with the way her character was developed. She basically became who she was during her initiation. If it had ended differently - where her parents and Will and a whole bunch of other people were killed and the whole mini war didn't break out - she would have been a slightly different person. Up until she joined Dauntless, she was never free to be herself the way Christina was. Tobias was still somewhat reserved, but he had the chance to become his own person after his initiation ended. He got to say 'alright this is what I'm doing with my life now'. Tris really didn't. She got pushed into this conflict that she thought she wouldn't survive alot of the time. Didn't want to for a while.
Also, I think a future would have been almost as big of a challenge as doing what she'd already done. She almost had no one left and no real purpose.
Her parents are dead. Caleb was a traitor and even though she chose to forgive him and move on, he would never really be her brother again. Not in the same way.
She had Christina, yes, but they hadn't known each other very long and for most of the time that they did, they weren't speaking and/or comfortable around each other.
And while she also had Tobias, she didn't totally. They were constantly having conflict and she was ready to break it off with him completely in this last one.
So I think that had alot to do with it too. I think she didn't see much of a future for herself other than alot of struggle and just going through the motions.
Yes, that is exactly the kind of feeling I got about Tris' future. It's like there wasn't really going to be a happy ending for her anyway.
Yeah. Some serious PTSD too, if I had to guess.
SKIP THIS IF YOU DO NOT WANT A SPOILER......tris died. I threw the book across the room. I cursed. the end.
I am so disappointed in roth. tris should have not died . it ruined the series. It doesn't matter that divergent was good. Next time somebody askes me about the series I will say " do NOT read this series. It will just make you cry"
Callie wrote: "I feel that it's very disappointing that Tris died because she was shot. I felt that she was on top of the world because she survived the death serum, when it was guaranteed that it could kill anyo..."The fact that she survived the death serum and resisted all of the other serums is why she had to die. She was too powerful. Living and breeding would have continued the current or started another genetic war. And the only way for her to die was by old-fashioned physics-caused trauma; it had already been proven that biology/chemistry wasn't going to do it.
I would have liked there to have been a happy ending for Tris, but from a literary standpoint that was the best ending for the character. At least the author didn't so attached to her that we had a repeat of Orson Card Scott's Ender.
This ending was an epic fail. Sorry Veronica.
So... The ending of Divergent did kinda suck. I think maybe Veronica should right maybe like... some follow up series about what happens to Tobias. I mean, I saw it coming for Tris. But... the fact that Tobias and Christina are the only ones still alive, basically? I think what we all would like (Now that saving Tris's life isn't possible) is to know what happens to Four even after Allegiant.
Christie wrote: "I'm torn in two about the ending. While I am of the firm belief that you should never ever kill off a central character that your audience has followed faithfully right from the beginning and has g..."I feel like you have said everything that I have been thinking! Although I of course would have loved to see Tris alive, it suited her character, and her personality. Tris constantly was trying to be brave and selfless. But she also made very quick and often times (for lack of a better word) stupid decisions that put her in dangerous situations. Also I feel like if Tris were to have lived, she would have been put on this pedestal as being almost immortal... but that's not what VR's point was for this trilogy.
I did hate that Uriah had died, but I feel like it was the only way for Tobias (Four) to grasp reality and take on the role he needed to for the rest of the story. Tobias was battling a lot of inner emotions.
Melody wrote: "Callie wrote: "I feel that it's very disappointing that Tris died because she was shot. I felt that she was on top of the world because she survived the death serum, when it was guaranteed that it ..."Definitely agree with you Melody. Tris would have been too powerful.
I actually like the idea that Tris, Super!Tris, The Divergent/GP who inexplicably resists all the serums, gets taken out by a couple of gunshots. It's so dull, so ordinary, so ... human. Because in the end, she's not super-special, she's not invincible, she's just a person. I do like that. I just wish it had happened in a storyline that wasn't so, well, stupid.
haha.....i wonder what the people who are making the movies are thinking now
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Ok we need to discuss Tris's death. It was completely and totally unfair and pointless and the series left that lingering question. What happened to Tobais afterwards?! Did he ever love again? Like WTH happened! Tris shouldn't have died so I want your opinion to try and calm me down