Review Group discussion
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So what is a review and how do I write one?
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I thought I'd add my 2 cents to the original topic. Even though I'm a few years late.While I agree with much of what the OP wrote, I would consider this formula more of a guideline than a rule. Or perhaps a starting point, rather than endpoint.
The problem that I see is in the simple averaging of those categories. Easy, of course, but it assumes these categories are of equal importance. I would venture to say that they are not for most readers. For example, if I absolutely loved the story of a book (5) but disliked several places where there were unorthodox uses of narrative structure (3), I personally would be hard pressed to drop them to a 4-star score (assuming I found even a single other category drop a point from). Books I love usually get a 5, as whatever made me love them built up some equity to allow me to overlook flaws. There are plenty of things I could nitpick in The Count of Monte Cristo, but it still gets a 5 in my book.
Writing is an art, not a science. You would not judge a Picasso or a Monet based solely on an average of 6 or 8 categories, because the most important thing about them is how they evoke an emotional, rather than a functional, response.
I do not wish to sound overly critical of the stated formula. I think it is very useful as a guide, I just would not want to be ultimately tied to a mathematical calculation for something that is inherently so subjective.
It is just a guideline, a personal opinion of one of the founding mods. Personally, I don't adhere to it. It was written as some people were finding the prospect of writing a review somewhat daunting. As you say, its a starting point for a systematic consideration of a book, if you need one.
I like it a lot. I look back on it when I'm having trouble writing a review, particularly one that is going to be critical, to suss out the specifics of what I didn't like and what I did, and why. I don't go down the list like some sort of checklist, but it often gets me back on track. I think it's a great starting point for people who haven't written very many reviews before.
K.A. wrote: "I like it a lot. I look back on it when I'm having trouble writing a review, particularly one that is going to be critical, to suss out the specifics of what I didn't like and what I did, and why. ..."Emma wrote: "It is just a guideline, a personal opinion of one of the founding mods. Personally, I don't adhere to it.
It was written as some people were finding the prospect of writing a review somewhat daunt..."
What a very interesting series of conversations about reviewing. Since joining GR and the various review groups, a couple of years ago, I am pleased to say I have learned a lot - about writing and reviewing. Jay's list was one of 2 or 3 guides that I've found very helpful, but then the words of some of the moderators like Jay, Emma and K.A. have also been so useful as well. I am well into my sixth decade and still willing to learn more about this scribbling lark, but even so I am conceited enough to remember the words of a previous boss. He was Stanley Kalms, now Sir Stanley blah blah... They were issued as a kind of directive to managers in the early days of Dixons, the photographic, electronic and electrical etc giant.
Probably not original but I quote:
Rules are for the adherence of fools and the guidance of wise men (and women).
Just a thought...
Emma wrote: "It is just a guideline, a personal opinion of one of the founding mods. Personally, I don't adhere to it. It was written as some people were finding the prospect of writing a review somewhat daunt..."
Hey, Emma. A big Thanks for creating the Romance Review Group. All seems to be going well and I am having a great time reading my fellow romance writers books. Awesome. :o) Rory
Jay's guidelines are indeed solely to help people think about how they write a review, not to tell them how to do it. I don't adhere to them myself, but I do post a link to them at the beginning of a review round if I am modding it. I have to say, I do notice enormous variations in the amount of trouble and thought that goes into the reviews posted to this group. Most are fine. Some are really excellent (and they're not necessarily the longest ones). But I occasionally find myself thinking, "Is that really all you've got to say? Did you actually read the book?"
there is a link at the bottom of each comment so the author can edit, or delete it. Mods can also delete comments.To join a review round, go to the review thread section, find an appropriate group with 'now forming' in the title, and sign up.
Francis wrote: "PS. I would have liked to edit my typo in the previous post but i could not save my edit at all. I could preview it, but no way to save it. Any idea? Please?"There is no prompt that says "Save" - there is one that says "edit" which is what you just did (so it's arguably illogical) - just click on that. Yup, click "edit" - do you stuff - click "edit" again. What a country.
All books offered for review are in digital format. Authors have to at least be able to provide pdf copies to their allocated reviewers, but many also provide mobi and pdf files.Authors exchange email addresses via the goodreads 'private message' system.
I am still struggeling with reviewing. Some of the reviews are so long and they repeat half the book. Is that helpful? It is not for a newspaper. And I find these long reviews on Amazon very artifocial. They don't come across as natural readers.I am fine with just two sentences.
What bugs me more is when people comment on book content that is not in there.
I don't think two lines could give me enough information about whether I want to read a book or not, and if an author in th course of a review round only provided a two senrence review, I'd ask them for a little more.but yes some of the very long reviews are a little difficult to wade through. however, some people are natural 'ramblers'. They feel the need to share something about themselves, or their own opinions about a genre, or book that they think will give a useful context for the rest of the review.
If the review is a negative one, it can increase the pain for the receiving author, but reviews are for potential readers, not the author.
Some useful suggestions here:https://janruthblog.wordpress.com/201...
A good point raised is that you should never use the author's Christian name or equivalent in a review; it can invalidate it.
I had no idea mentioning an author's first name was a problem, I wonder where the blogger found that information, or even if it's true?
I've never doubted it, myself; it indicates that you know the author. Of course it might not always be true, but it's what I always assume if I see the first name used.
Is there a word count that we must meet? I have been looking at other peoples reviews and they are very long. I don't normally write long reviews when I review a book. Do I have to do that here?
There are long reviews and lonnnnnng reviews. I'd expect at least a paragraph or two in a review group review, so a potential reader can tell if the book is for them or not."It was great, can't wait for the next' or 'didn't like it' isn't useful to a potential reader, or an author.
We aren't after detailed critiques with many quotes, or a complete plot synopsis, just what you liked, or didn't like.
Hope this helps.
Jay, congratulations on an evergreen discussion. My experience (in the software 'how to' field).Book 1, self-published (when that meant paying for 1000 copies) proofed by me and two others, had a 'to' that should have been a 'too' on page 4.
Books 2 thru 11, major publishers, pro proof/copy edited. None got to page 4 without at least one unarguable error.
I know this is late to the party, but re: length - I've adopted the policy of giving an overview on Goodreads and Amazon but expanding to a critique on my blog. That way authors can access critique and readers can find it if they want to, but both can take or leave it.
Jay wrote: "First of all I’m going to talk about reviews as written by readers who have purchased books from one of the ebook sellers.Let’s start off by clarifying what the purpose of a review actually is ou..."
An excellent resume on the topic Jay. I have frequently stated the same facts as you when discussing the topic in various scenarios. Thank you for sharing. Every author should read.
I've just joined an hour ago and read through this thread , so I'm perhaps out of line.But a review after o book is published is a good thing, but not as valuable as a constructive critique before publishing. Naturally, the critic must be honest, even brutal, in places. The purpose is to play a part in producing a better book, not to stroke an ego. But the writer must also have both the humility to take on board what is said but to retain the responsibility for that final product.
I have used friends and family for my previous books. They are well-educated average readers, but tend not to have the technical awareness of grammar, mood, technique, etc, to be as helpful as another writer would be. And none have had the grasp of the subject matter that a buyer can be expected to have.
So I have to ask, is there a 'Beta Readers Group' anywhere? I would greatly appreciate that sort of assistance, and more than prepared to offer it.
There are several 'beta' groups on goodreads, just do a search. we also have a thread on this group for people offering and wanting beta reads.In all cases, some people charge, some people don't.
I think "stars" ratings are important - I realize not everyone agrees, but readers may only glance at the stars and not read the actual reviewes. Here're the words from one Amazon review: "Enjoyable and foreseeable! A good read... Reminds me of Star Gate, the television series with a close group of guys and gals! Thanks!!!"Sounds positive, doesn't it? This reader would recommend this book, don't you think? But the reviewer gave it 3 stars and Amazon lists it under the "critical" rather than "positive" reviews.
Consider the definition Amazon uses when you post your reviews. (I've even see wonderful words posted with a single star - which I think must have been a mouse-error. But there it is.)
What do you think of stars? What do you think the average reader thinks of stars?
Kate wrote: "I think "stars" ratings are important - I realize not everyone agrees, but readers may only glance at the stars and not read the actual reviewes. Here're the words from one Amazon review: "Enjoyabl..."This is so true. Honestly when I am looking for a book to read I will make a goodreads list and arrange them by star rating. But I also take into account how many people rated the book. But I will say that I only give out 5 stars if the book was phenomenal. So most books get 3 or 4 stars from me. If no one or only 5 people have rated a book I typically love to be one of the first to read something so I can add a review.
Kate wrote: "I think "stars" ratings are important - I realize not everyone agrees, but readers may only glance at the stars and not read the actual reviewes. Here're the words from one Amazon review: "Enjoyabl..."I agree that BOTH the star rating and the written review are very important. Unless I have previously read the author or have a personal recommendation from someone who knows my taste, I use the stars to pre-screen potential books (or movies).
If it's over 3.5 stars, THEN I'll start reading reviews to get more information.
Joel wrote: "Kate wrote: "I think "stars" ratings are important - I realize not everyone agrees, but readers may only glance at the stars and not read the actual reviewes. Here're the words from one Amazon revi..."Joel, you're spot-on in my estimation. 3.5 stars is probably a common cut off. So - consider this reviewers. When you get ready to post your review, do you look at the existing stars rating and ask yourself - do I want my review to bring the average up or down? (Controversial I suspect - what is a review for? what's it's mission? If your don't enjoy the provocative topic, just skip happily past.)
Kate wrote: "Joel wrote: "Kate wrote: "I think "stars" ratings are important - I realize not everyone agrees, but readers may only glance at the stars and not read the actual reviewes. Here're the words from on..."I try not to let previous ratings skew my ratings though. If I like it it gets 3, really like it, 4, love it it gets 5. One and two star ratings are typically reserved for books I can hardly finish or really hate. But some genres, like erotica, will naturally get some one star ratings because people find them too spicy. This can sometimes be a good sign.
Amanda wrote: "Kate wrote: "Joel wrote: "Kate wrote: "I think "stars" ratings are important - I realize not everyone agrees, but readers may only glance at the stars and not read the actual reviewes. Here're the ..."I sometimes read a "critical" review's words and think - this is the book for me! I guess we are all captive to Amazon's presentation of 3 stars as "critical" (does critical = I like it? Sounds more negative to me, but Amazon doesn't offer definitions as far as I know) and 4 or 5 as "positive," whatever those words may mean to the mythical "average reader"
I'm new to this group - do we have a suggested set of definitions? (assuming you think stars are important) What does everyone think of, 1 fatally flawed, 2 = this reads like a first draft, 3 = meh, 4 = I like it, 5 = I like it even more
As a writer, I appreciate thoughtful reviews and constructive criticism. As a reader, I review every book I read unless I can't finish it. I've only given 1 or 2 star reviews when a book is an obvious long advertisement or misogynistic. If I like a book and it was okay, I give it a 3. Better, but not great, a 4. I loved it, 5. I try to let other readers know briefly what the story is about and my experience. I love to reward great books with a 5! I'll deduct a point or put it in my review if there are typos or other grammatical errors. A book should be professional!
D. wrote: "As a writer, I appreciate thoughtful reviews and constructive criticism. As a reader, I review every book I read unless I can't finish it. I've only given 1 or 2 star reviews when a book is an ob..."
I also hate a book that is essentially an ad - that's not fair! And as painful as it may be, proofing against typos and confusing grammar because these things distract a reader. Personally, I even have trouble with strong dialects in dialogue - even when I know the author intended it.
And one more thing! I want photos in a non fiction book or memoir.
D. wrote: "And one more thing! I want photos in a non fiction book or memoir."Sure makes for a better book :)
Kate wrote: "I think "stars" ratings are important - I realize not everyone agrees, but readers may only glance at the stars and not read the actual reviewes. Here're the words from one Amazon review: "Enjoyabl..."First I must apologise for the length of time between your post and this, my, response. I had to temporarily suspend my on-line activity for a number of reasons and am only just starting back.
I think the whole star rating system has been misused and, to some extent, abused. Also the variation in definitions between sites does not help. I wrote about this a while ago and use that article as the basis for my own review ratings. If interested you may read the article at: https://trrobinsonpublications.com/20...
Susanne wrote: "Amazon requires you to have purchased from them before you can post a review. Barnes & Noble, on the other hand, takes all reviews."Someone told me she got a message from them when she tried to review that she needed to have made purchases totaling $50. in the last six months in order to post a review.
its not in the last 6 months, its $50 ever.
Paula wrote: "Susanne wrote: "Amazon requires you to have purchased from them before you can post a review. Barnes & Noble, on the other hand, takes all reviews."It's a shame that the peer groups insist on an Amazon account, as I have boycotted Amazon, not selling through them or buying from them for the last dozen years. Until they stop pressurising authors, sellers, bookshops, and workers in their warehouses I shall not use them.
I'm afraid you are in a minority. Nearly all authors use amazon, even if they are not exclusive to them. They are the biggest market by far.Authors want reviews to be seen by potential buyers, and for most of the world, that means climbing into bed with amazon, even if you have the odd fling with other platforms.
I think Amazon pioneered the self publishing industry. My books wouldn't exist if not for them. They also helped launch eBooks with their Kindle device. I understand why some people don't like them. I've been frustrated with them and they make the rules.
D. wrote: "I think Amazon pioneered the self publishing industry. My books wouldn't exist if not for them. They also helped launch eBooks with their Kindle device. I understand why some people don't like them..."I agree - without Amazon many of us would never have been able to get our books published (the competition for traditional agents and publishers is considerable). Of course, there are now alternatives to Amazon but, again as D states, like it or not, it has to be acknowledged Amazon remains the largest worldwide retailer. In addition, it needs to be born in mind Amazon IS a business and therefore are always looking for profit. Nonetheless, they continue to provide free, easy use, systems for authors. Yes, there can be frustrations and announces but authors should be grateful.
I agree that they make it easy for authors to get published. That is not always a good thing, because there is as much stuff being published which really ought never to have seen the light of day, as good books that might otherwise have remained unpublished. No, they weren't the first pioneer of self-publishing (I come from a family of librarians so have a fair knowledge of such things) but they made it cheaper and easier to do, and especially to have a distribution network provided.
However publishing houses, libraries, and small independent bookshops have all suffered from their presence and undercutting - also from charity bookshops here in the UK. I shall hold out as long as I can. Being in the UK I am also aware of their tax-evasion. It is difficult to remain moral and resist, and I may well have to buckle eventually - I already edit for an author who publishes on Amazon and tells me how easy it is - but it will be a last resort.
Do people have a rough rule of thumb for word count on reviews? And is it ok to post the same review cut and paste in Amz & GR or are the platforms expecting different things?Thanks for the noob handholding :)
Paul
You can post exactly the same thing on goodreads and amazon, although I think amazon kicks up a fuss about some language that goodreads will let through. For review group reviews, we expect more than a few lines, but not a 'book report'. Think about what you would find helpful (good and bad). What you'd like to see on your own books.
Thanks Emma, super helpful :)I think I've managed to avoid being sweary, so I should sneak under the radar on the different platforms. I'm about 150 words, so I think that's bang in the middle. Off to post. How exciting :)
Is there a minimum or maximum word count for a review ?
Hmm. Tricky. I have to say there are no hard and fast rules. But, it has to be clear that you've read the book, without giving out spoilers, and give some sense of what the reader should expect. Although reviews are for readers, not authors, its polite to be... polite. Critical is ok, we have our reputations as reviewers to think of as well, but I'm sure as authors ourselves, we can appreciate the hurt a stinging low star review can produce.
Mary wrote: "Is there a minimum or maximum word count for a review ?"No. However, it is wise to remember people often feel they are pressed for time. Consequently it is best to keep a review to a reasonable length that readers can see will not take too long to read. This would not only help readers but also authors who have committed so much time to writing their books.
I was just wondering what motivated people to do that.